So the plothole there is a metaphorical one?

Subject: So the plothole there is a metaphorical one?
Author: JulyFlame
Posted on: 2011-03-27 19:57:00 UTC

Inside the actual plothole that's visible in the story?

(Also, KG, I can SEE you and I can tell you're wanting to slam your head against something or are facepalming or having some sort of existential PPC crisis. So stop it and take a breath and just chill and wear some underwear on your head for a bit until calm down and see what there is you can do to improve what you wrote without losing the point of what you wanted.)

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Announcement! New PPC history! by kgarrett on 2011-03-27 12:36:00 UTC Reply

Hello, everybody. I hope you're all well. To explain in short, after much back and forth consultation over more than a year, hS asked me if I'd be willing to carry on the latest of his stories chronicling the PPC's history, and after much back-and-forth consultation, and with his guidance and editing, the first chapter of Origins is finally complete. It can be found here:

http://ppchistory.webs.com/OriginsPart1.htm

It's not bad, really, it isn't. by L'Homme Arbre on 2011-03-27 20:22:00 UTC Reply

Just needs some work, is all. A dabble of humor here, a bit of repetition-cutting there, a couple of beta readers, and voila, you have something worth showing off. It's hard to write something as epic as this, especially when hS sets such a high standard. Stay calm, listen to the concrit, and keep working at it, that's all I can say that hasn't been said already at least twice...
. . . well I liked it. (nm) by Kaitlyn on 2011-03-27 19:42:00 UTC Reply

Seconded! Nicely done, KG. (nm) by Vixenmage on 2011-03-27 23:31:00 UTC Reply

Thirded! by BeetleFire on 2011-03-28 17:51:00 UTC Reply

I think you have the writing style down pretty well, especially in the beginning.

Not bad. by Neshomeh on 2011-03-27 19:24:00 UTC Reply

I'm glad you've got something up, since you've been working on it so long.

I don't agree with July that it's first-draft-ish, but rather the opposite: I think it's a bit over-written for what it is. As I understand the sequence of things, none of the crew are going to survive to Chapter One, so I don't understand your choice to spend so much time emphasizing how fat Aldebourne is, for instance. It doesn't seem to come into play at all except to give Michael something to complain about, but that's something that could have been said once and left alone in favor of getting on with the plot. I'm a patient reader, and I'm all for establishing character and scene, but not when I'm pretty sure it isn't going to matter once the actual story starts.

If I turn out to be mistaken and we see these guys again, I'll eat my words, but that's my feeling right now. The writing is technically very good, but heavy-handed. For future chapters, try to keep in mind what's really important to the story and don't sweat over the details so much. {= )

~Neshomeh

And a third. :D by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:40:00 UTC Reply

As I've said a couple of times, it's all my fault. I wrote an entire Unfinished Tale about Michael and Aldebourne, really building up their characters before throwing them off the planet to die in deep space. It amused me at the time, and it amuses me now - the complete break in the story from what you were expecting. Ever seen Psycho?

Also, this is a prologue. I've read a lot of books where the prologue consists entirely of characters who either die or are never seen again on-page. The actual chapters will be more focussed.

hS

Afraid I'll have to disagree with the "fault" bit. by Neshomeh on 2011-03-27 20:05:00 UTC Reply

Mostly because there's no blame happening, just a personal reaction. {= )

The trouble is that I KNOW they're doomed, so there's no break in expectations. In other books, I don't know anything going in, so there isn't a voice at the back of my mind going "yes, okay, he's fat, but you've said this three times already and it's never going to be important." Plus, I agree with Guvnor that the humor doesn't quite land.

Again, though, it's mainly foreknowledge that's tripping me up. Maybe some of the newer folks who have no idea what's going on will have a better time. {= )

Also, are you guys familiar with the iceberg principle of writing?

~Neshomeh

Well, yes. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 20:13:00 UTC Reply

If you already know the ending, there's little that will surprise you in the telling (actually, for Origins, that's not true after, um, the prologue. It gets complicated).

I... have no idea about icebergs, alas. Don't know about KG, who's doing the actual writing on this one.

hS

Not necessarily. by Neshomeh on 2011-03-27 21:38:00 UTC Reply

PPC missions are a good example of stories in which the ending is pretty much a given, but the story can still be surprising. To adopt an apt cliche, it's about the journey, not the destination. *cue hippies and flowers*

*possibly Flowers, too, but probably not*

To elaborate on the iceberg principle as defined below, what I suspect happened is that KG tried to cram in too much stuff that you know about the story out of a desire to please. But, just because you and he know something about character X doesn't mean it needs to go in the tale. A separate story about them is another matter--go nuts with that, and we'll probably love it. Just so long as those details don't bog down stories wherein they don't signify anything.

~Neshomeh, who could tell all sorts of things about Agent Supernumerary's previous life--he's one of her only PPC characters who has a previous life, in fact.
I tried to work in explanations and they disrupted the narra by Anonymous on 2011-03-27 20:15:00 UTC Reply

-tive too much. I went with what flowed better over explaining every little thing. For example, the "law" comment was going to be explained but I couldn't make it go smoothly. My personal theory is Aldebourne was just giving Mike a hard time.

Icebergs... that takes me back. by Guvnor of Space on 2011-03-27 20:08:00 UTC Reply

That's the thing where there is the top layer, which is what is written, and then two more layers below the surface, one being the implied things and the other being metaphorical. Or something like that. I think I just butchered it. >.

No, but that's cool. by Neshomeh on 2011-03-27 20:12:00 UTC Reply

I was referring to the one that says that what goes into the story is only 10% of what the author actually knows about it.

~Neshomeh

Aye, I've seen it done by Teddy Leach on 2011-03-27 19:45:00 UTC Reply

Many times, in fact. I'd even go so far as to say that I'm a big fan of it. Personally, I like the prologue!
A Song of Ice and Fire comes particularly to mind. (nm) by kgarrett on 2011-03-27 19:41:00 UTC Reply

Story seemed to flow best writing that way, is all. by kgarrett on 2011-03-27 19:25:00 UTC Reply

Sorry to have wasted everybody's time. I don't know what I was thinking.

Don't be so quick to blame yourself. by L'Homme Arbre on 2011-03-27 19:29:00 UTC Reply

Yes, it seems to be the general consensus among us (myself included) that it could use some work. But that doesn't mean it's a waste of time. If you keep working at it, you'll have used time, but you won't have wasted it. It'll only be a waste of time if you give up on it, and you're not going to do that.

Are you?

Response by Guvnor of Space on 2011-03-27 19:21:00 UTC Reply

KG. Let me start by saying that I liked this story.

Let me continue by saying that July is right that there are problems with it. Every one of her points is valid, to some extent- this story lacks real polish, the repetition is annoying, and it does not measure up to the works posted by hS. Oh, and early colonists were not restricted on bringing invasive plants or species to the New World. The House Sparrow, which has helped contribute to the decline of the Blue Bird population, was introduced from Europe to eat bugs that were eating crops.

Far more worrying than anything else, at least to me, is the complete and total lack of anything funny. The first section is downright bleak, talking about the vast emtiness of space and being overall depressing. While I certainly don't believe that everything about the PPC should be zany humor (I do, in fact, like mixing humor with serious situations) this story has nothing in the way of anything funny happening. That worries me.

Still, I did enjoy reading it. If this were an original piece of fiction, versus back-story for the PPC, my biggest single problem with it, the lack of humor, would be irrelevant. I would still agree, however, that a bit more polish would be prudent. July is quite right in that regard.

A comment. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:36:00 UTC Reply

...early colonists were not restricted on bringing invasive plants or species to the New World.

I don't think this point was particularly fleshed out in KG's version or my original Origins, but my point, at least, was less about the introduction of invasive species, and more to do with Michael not really being allowed to take stock for his private garden on what probably isn't his personal ship - it takes up space that should be used for actual cargo, and slows the ship down.

Actually, the bleak part at the beginning is highly influenced by my Origins, too. Amusingly, I think everything anyone has said against this version comes straight from the original short.

So I apologise for them all. In my defence, it was a long time ago.

hS

Response to the comment by Guvnor of Space on 2011-03-27 19:43:00 UTC Reply

"I don't think this point was particularly fleshed out in KG's version or my original Origins, but my point, at least, was less about the introduction of invasive species, and more to do with Michael not really being allowed to take stock for his private garden on what probably isn't his personal ship - it takes up space that should be used for actual cargo, and slows the ship down."

Ah, see, that makes more sense. Except in KG's story, it IS his personal ship.

"His father owned Voyager before him, and he had started working on the ship himself as soon as he was old enough."

That's why I jumped on the invasive species bit. I also almost made a comment about lot's of captains not owning the ships they captained, but I couldn't find any evidence quickly, so I left it out.

Probably one of those spots I had to fill in blanks. by Anonymous on 2011-03-27 19:49:00 UTC Reply

I generally tried to make it basically a fleshed-out version of hS's short, and where I couldn't stick as close to it as possible I had to fill in a few areas where there wasn't as much detail and the like; given how it's being worked on, I figured hS would stop me if he saw something that clashed with his story and whatnot. I think the prose might've ended up looking a bit patchwork, because I kept changing bits around and whatnot. I don't know, sorry.
I concede the point. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:48:00 UTC Reply

Maybe it's an AU Earth? I mean, Voyager isn't a real ship, and she was certainly never eaten by a plothole.

hS

Star Trek? (nm) by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:49:00 UTC Reply

... you're too good at this. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:52:00 UTC Reply

Wait, it wasn't a reference? (nm) by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:53:00 UTC Reply

The story is seven years old. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:55:00 UTC Reply

It may have been a reference - I had to have gotten the name from somewhere, and it's a good reference. The only other source is Admiral Ackbar's Galactic Voyager, which isn't nearly so apt. So let's say you're right. :P

hS

But who's left? (nm) by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 21:12:00 UTC Reply

Well, I guess hS did allow you. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 17:50:00 UTC Reply

So I can't really complain. Too much.

You went overboard on epithets, and I call bull on the 'I could say you're breaking the law' bit in regards to importing plants from Europe to the Americas.

Also, your post. Learn to decide what format you're going to go with for phrases. 'Back and forth' or 'back-and-forth', especially if you're going to use it twice in the same sentence.

Reasons I am highly amused. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:32:00 UTC Reply

1/ The plant import thing is straight from my original version of Origins.

2/ No chapter of Reorg or Crashing Down (including the ones written by two people and then mashed together!) was ever drafted or significantly edited.

hS

Re: Reasons I am highly amused. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:36:00 UTC Reply
1. You never said anything in regards to plant importing being illegal. Which is why I'm calling bull in regards to that bit. (Nevermind that sunflowers are American in origin.)
  
  2. Timeline?

Response: by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:45:00 UTC Reply
1. Yes, it was true. In addition to a selection of crops, animals, tools and the usual assorted junk the Voyager routinely transported across the Ocean, there were, in a secluded corner of the hold, several pots of assorted seeds. Smith had a small house in the town where they would make port, and on seeing the empty area in the hold had decided to introduce some of the Old World to the New. It was against the rules, but the crew knew that they weren’t in danger.
  
  2. ... er, Timeline? to you too! No, what? I don't understand the question.
  
  hS

Then I call you out on that as well. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:46:00 UTC Reply

Also, fish.

I'm distressingly confused and not quite sure what's going on anymore.

I can't even remember why it was that way. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:50:00 UTC Reply

I'm sure there was a very important reason. But as a method for getting Old and New World plants dropped onto Origin together (I did know sunflowers were American at the time), it left quite a lot to be desired.

But wait! That just makes it a plothole! And the whole story is about plotholes! Problem solved!

hS

Hmm... by L'Homme Arbre on 2011-03-27 20:05:00 UTC Reply

So, it doesn't matter if we as authors screw up, because the whole story is about authors screwing up? I'm not really feeling the logic here, hS. Isn't it, like, a precept of ours that our missions can't suck, because what the missions are about sucks and we don't want to introduce a double standard? I may be trying to hard to connect the dots, but it seems to me like you're splitting hairs here...

But I split them with style. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 20:13:00 UTC Reply

Undeniably. (nm) by L'Homme Arbre on 2011-03-27 22:29:00 UTC Reply

So the plothole there is a metaphorical one? by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:57:00 UTC Reply

Inside the actual plothole that's visible in the story?

(Also, KG, I can SEE you and I can tell you're wanting to slam your head against something or are facepalming or having some sort of existential PPC crisis. So stop it and take a breath and just chill and wear some underwear on your head for a bit until calm down and see what there is you can do to improve what you wrote without losing the point of what you wanted.)

Well, there are many kinds of plothole. by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 20:09:00 UTC Reply

The swirly blue kind is probably the least common. There's geographical compression, character alteration, anachronisms... sure, the portal-through-space is the most obvious, but the PPC is built on very carefully not-talked-about plotholes by the bajillion.

hS

I sincerely apologise, sir. (nm) by kgarrett on 2011-03-27 19:33:00 UTC Reply

Stop it, will you? by L'Homme Arbre on 2011-03-27 20:10:00 UTC Reply

We don't want you to apologize. Or, if we did, you have already and we don't need you to anymore. What we would like is if you'd take in some of the concrit you're getting and work on this some more. Any of this sinking in at all?
What in the world for? Don't answer that. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2011-03-27 19:47:00 UTC Reply
Stop apologizing. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:38:00 UTC Reply

There is no reason for you to apologize. Take your concrit like a mature, reasonable, and sentient being and stop apologizing for your imagined screw-ups.

I don't know how to slot your spine back in, so you're going to have to do it yourself.

Okay, that came out mean. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 17:59:00 UTC Reply

What I mean is, your writing in that is okay. Nothing more. It's not all that great, it's not terrible, it's just mediocre; and sort of disappointing for that fact, especially since you said you were consulting with him and it was edited, and you spent a year before this generally discussing.

It doesn't read like you took a year to discuss it, and it doesn't even read like it's much more beyond a first draft with an initial editing, which is never the feel I got from Reorganisation or Crashing Down, and is something I'd come to associate with this sort of background writing. That, y'know, if it's going to be written, that it's going to be novel quality writing despite being a fannish work, and this just isn't.

Yes, it did. by Cassie Cameron-Young on 2011-03-27 18:26:00 UTC Reply

KGarrett has a different writing style, that is to be expected. If you have issues, take them up with hS. He gave the go-ahead to post, which would presumably mean he approves, and given it was originally his project I'd say his opinion carries just a tad more weight here.

And give KG more space, July. You seem to jump all over him for anything these days, and to me at least it's starting to come off as picking on him. He's made an effort here, and having people taking him down like that isn't going to help matters. Start with actual concrit, not a note about how much everything about it including the plug post fails.

Yeah, I know someone or other's going to come out with "we're not here to be nice to people, yadda yadda" but I've been getting the impression recently that people are picking and choosing who they apply that standard to. And applying it more than necessary to certain people.

Enough is enough. I've been biting my tongue about this issue for a while now, but I am fed up of it.

I am not picking on him. by JulyFlame on 2011-03-27 19:04:00 UTC Reply

No, I do not jump all over him for anything these days, and I have no interest in picking on him or others. If you want to talk to someone about picking on others, talk to KG in regards to Chliever, or any of the other newbies he tries to smack down whenever he feels courageous.

As to actual concrit, the only thing I can say good about the story is that it is free of technical errors. I can't say anyhtihing else in praise of it because it reads like a first draft. It needs fine tuning. I can't pinpoint every single sentence or phrase that makes it feel like a first draft because then I'd be spending time on doing something I don't feel like doing. It feels like a first draft. It reads like a first draft. It needs to be refined and polished. This is not an outright dismissal. It reads poorly because it doesn't feel like he took the time to go over it a few more times to get it just right. This isn't a regular spin-off piece and it should have more time and effort devoted to making it just right.

Nowhere did I pick at his personal writing style, unless his personal writing style is to write something and then say 'That's it! I'm done! It's finished forever, it just needs a quick edit! No second or third or fourth draft!'. As I said, what I, and probably others, have come to expect from PPC backstories is work that's novel quality.

When it feels like a first draft it is not novel quality, and no professional writer will stop at a first draft. Stoping at a first draft after an edit is okay for a mission, and that comprises most of my mission works. But I know others like Neshomeh who do not stop at a first draft, and they continue rewriting and fine tuning until it is exactly right, and is the quality they expect from a professional work.

As far as picking and choosing goes, I do not 'pick and choose' who I reply to with honesty. As I recall, you've even agreed that you trust me as far as what I say because I'm not going to lie about what I think. If I reply, I'm going to be honest regardless. I have no problem giving concrit, so don't try to frame me as a bully because KG's work was found wanting in some spots.

Okay. by Cassie Cameron-Young on 2011-03-27 19:23:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I overreacted. I probably shouldn't have tried to respond in the middle of an emotional point where I was pointing due "everything is out to be mean", and that clearly carried over into my post.

I take it back and apologise for the accusations I made. I really don't want to start a massive fight over this.

Whoa! by Gamma on 2011-03-27 17:35:00 UTC Reply

Really, really nice job! That was excellent! I applaud your excellent writing skills.

There is no call for sarcasm. (nm) by kgarrett on 2011-03-27 19:30:00 UTC Reply

...? I'm sorry? by Gamma on 2011-03-27 19:45:00 UTC Reply

I'm a little miffed that you thought it was sarcasm, but it wasn't. I'm not good when it comes to sarcasm.
I actually, genuinely thought it was good.
But if you want to be hard on yourself and think that it was sarcasm, go right ahead.