well, i think that ur friend is absolute shit. she should be totes ashamed of herself and she must be mentally retarded. u should stop being friends with her and tell her that if she ever says smthing bad about the ppc ill hunt her down and kill her.

ps. i bet shes ugly and fat.

Here I was, thinking this is supposed to be the purpose of the FAQ:For Other People - shooting these arguments down. From what I can gather, there's really no case she's made which the FAQ hasn't already sent to crash and burn.

In my frank opinion, if she hasn't the maturity to stop denying that simple fact, this petty argument isn't worth your time.

This was not written by me, but it may be useful to you.
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZG7OSPQ2kfBZGM0MnF0ZGJfMmM0cm5tcmM2&hl=en

Looking at her favorites... reasoning with her may be quite difficult.

The point is to A) have fun B) spork. We make goodfic out of badfic by writing about the badfic in a way that is (hopefully) instructive, funny, and good. So what's so bad about that?

If she brings up the 4/5 thing, definitely bring up her M rated Twilight lemons. Seriously. People.

ULTIMATELY, if she is your friend, try to find a way around the subject so you can still enjoy her company without ending up frustrated and upset. But if you still feel like trying to explain it to her, there are many other well-explained and pretty simple/easy to understand arguments in the FAQ and in your replies. Buena suerte! (good luck)

A point that will never be stated enough is that we are in pursuit of badfics. Bad fics. And bad is very often an understatement. We do not mock everybody's fics, but only the ones so badly done, they deserve to.

For example, there is a list of what I sporked:
Mission 1: A badly written fic in which canon characters and plot are in basckground. It talks about the love story of two OCs. Nothing else. Sorry, that's not what a fanfiction is supposed to be.
Mission 2 (currently in beta status): A rapefic with horrible writing and wildly OOC characters. It's what we can call a canon rape. You're not a fan if you try to destroy the canon. At all.
Mission 3 (currently in the works): My own badly-written unreleased earlier stories. Well, I'm actually mocking myself!
MST 1: A very badly written crossover with mashed grammar and no plot at all. If you want to write something, please put a little effort in it.

As everybody can see, the bad writing is a constant. We do not mock things we don't like. We mock things that deserve it.

If Suethors and badfic writers don't demonstrate a genuine love and respect for the canon stories, we won't demonstrate love and respect for their stories. Respect goes both ways, people. They just don't like it when we do the same kind of thing to their fics that they do to stories they claim to be fans of.

At least we never claim to be fans of their fics!

If they do love the canon, it will show in their writing. If it doesn't show, they either lack the skill necessary to post a story for the world to read, or they are not genuine fans and really shouldn't be writing fanfiction in a public place.

That's what fanfiction.net is, after all--a public place. It's not remedial writing. It's not a workshop. It's not a self-esteem class. It's not a friends-only livejournal. What isn't fair is for fanfiction.net's worst writers to attempt to make that public place more comfortable for them--and them only--by attacking the right of a reader to leave negative feedback. This is especially true because it is explicitly stated in the Terms of Service that any author who posts to fanfiction.net should be able to accept criticism.

Speaking of rule-breaking, the "four or five year old" scenario was the most ridiculous part of your classmate's argument. "Their parents might have helped these kids break the rules, so why don't you go easy on them?" Um...so we're supposed to reward people for breaking rules made for the benefit of the fanfiction community as a whole? And you think that THAT would help these kids?

No. One of the most important lessons young children need to learn is that rules are in place for a reason. If their parents are enabling them to break the rules, the least we can do is demonstrate to them why those rules are in place. Better they learn from a Sue-mocking community than from an obscene troll or an explicit story wrongly rated.

As to, "What gives you the right to insult the writers?" I answer, "The same thing that gives the writers the right to create fanfiction in the first place."

~Araeph

Don't apologise, hon - this is why we're a community, after all; we help each other. No better way to start the new year than to reaffirm what we're all here for.
(That said, reading all the other comments, I think it's safe to say that no one here is going to be able to intervene - give advice, yes, but you're going to have to work this out with her yourself. We can't literally step in, or she's likely to accuse us of bullying or somewhat.)

So, let me see...

Well, first of all, insults are not a hard science. Someone could be insulted if you describe their shirt as purple rather than blue, and some writers will be insulted by comments, criticism or parodies that others laugh at. Just because she would be insulted by something does not mean that everyone would, so she can't make a universal claim there.

Second, and probably my most important rebutta: Parodies exist. They are part of life and no one has the right to tell anyone they can't make a parody. Everything from parody movies to teenagers laughing about something as they come out of a cinema can be considered parody. As her if it's possible that there's absolutely nothing in the world that she has ever, in her life, made fun of. I doubt it. If we were all to go through life carefully tip-toeing around anything that might possibly offend someone, we'd never say anything at all.

On the same lines, following what IndeMaat said - there's a quote I have which I think sums up the matter nicely (though I'm afraid I've lost the citation): "It's amazing how many people think the right to freedom of speech means the right to be free of criticism for that speech, which would deny others the same right they claim for themselves." Unless she wants to argue that people should never write anything deconstructing another person's fictional work - which would make the entire notion of fanfic immoral and to be banned - then she can't use this point as more than a mild supporting paragraph.

Also, as Cassie said, she might be getting defensive of her own work, if only subconsciously. Someone who resorts to mocking you certainly doesn't sound like someone who has enough self-confidence to take things calmly without feeling the need to lash out at percieved attackers. It might help to reassure her that the PPC only goes after the absolute worst stories out there (presuming, of course, that hers don't qualify. And if they do, I suggest you pretend they don't - that won't do anyone any good).

I won't even go into the whole child-writers angle, because the others have covered that already. FFN and LJ and all them have rules for a reason; it's not our fault if someone chooses to break them. If they want to be treated as adults (well, teenagers, at least), then they have to be willing to take the bad with the good, and that means public posting = public criticism. The world can be harsh. Live with it. This isn't school, where children/teens are pampered and parents pay to let them pass classes.

Sorry for making this a laundry list of support points, but Aster Corbett's right, too; if someone were to write a PPC mission that was truly cruel, we'd step in. We're not a sniggering group of bullies who will support each other blindly.

On the humiliation point - yes, true, it's very likely that anyone who finds their work has been PPCd will be humiliated. I'm sure I would. First of all, we don't actively go up to writers and say "We've made fun of your dreadful writing!" We keep it low-key and post in places that really only other PPCers are likely to find it; we're a very closed community in that sense. Second, such things happen. It's life. We all get humiliated sometimes, and anyone who gets to the age of twenty without at least one absolutely dreadful shameful episode hasn't experienced enough of life to be properly living it. Tough though it is, it's good for us - even the people who take it in the worst way possible and wail, "I'll never write again!" They might think that now and change their minds later, or maybe it's true, in which case they'll undoubtedly find something else to make themselves happy. We are not their parents, teachers, or friends - we are not obliged to make their lives turn out perfectly. They have to do that themselves, and that means putting in effort rather than expecting the world to coddle them. Certainly, fanfic and fandom are fun, a hobby - I consider it such - but fun and effort are not mutually exclusive.


On a slightly different note, I'd advise you to be very careful about how you present your argument, because I expect that even if every point you make is perfect and you punch holes in every one of her arguments, she's not going to take it well - no one likes to be so thoroughly proven wrong. Most I've seen will respond with more and more feeble (or angry) protests; how many times do you really see someone meekly bwo their heads and say "You're totally right, I was wrong, please forgive me, I feel so bad..." ? Not many, and she doesn't sound like the type. A heafty dose of "I think" and "well, to me..." phrases should help. Use the plural if you need to ("we don't think of ourselves as mean..."), but try avoiding stating it like fact, because that will probably just make her deaf to your actual words.

Last, though I hate to say it, you may not be able to convince her. It happens. I hope she's not someone you consider too close a friend, or whose opinion you value too much. I hope you'll be able to at least work out a "each to their own" agreement. Good luck.

First, it's none of her business if you joined PPC, so she should stop mocking about that. Some people choose worse things than sporking badfics.
Second, as many have said, we "insult" the fics, not the writers. There's a long way from one to another, and if someone can't tell the difference they should give up. I'm sure Stephanie Meyer doesn't mind when many of us say we don't like Twilight.
Third, if a four or five year old writes something, I bet his/her parents saying "hey, this is the fic my four/five year old child wrote, hope you like it". But in fact I see them more likely to tell their children "Nice story, but we're not putting it on the web"
Fourth, that "could someone please think of the kids?" thing makes me remember of The Simpsons' Mrs Lovejoy, when she shouts it even though it had nothing to do with the matter they were talking about.
Fifth, nobody who tries his/her best would write an almighty-out-of-canon character, that's common sense. So if there's a Sue, there's little effort.

If a writer wants to get in contact with us, they can. If they want us to explain what they did wrong, we will (and missions are, in effect, fictionalised explanations to that effect). That way they can learn to make things they can be genuinely proud of, and that they will get honestly rewarding reviews on.
The internet is not prone to babying people. A four-year-old should not know how to make a Sue have cringeworthy sex with Legolas or similar; such an argument is patently absurd. A parent 'helping' a child write and post such a thing would be firstly exposing their child to inappropriate content, and secondly doing the equivalent of lobbing their kid into a shark pool. In which case we come off looking pretty kind by comparison...

We're the reasonable critics on the internet. We can be rational and speak civilly. There are much, much harsher groups out there.

Side note: is she your friend, not just your classmate? That should govern whether you mock her until she stops using specious 'think of the children' arguments when her own profile has faved fics no child should ever read, or just tell her "I'm not going to discuss this with you, because our opinions differ too greatly on this."

Essentially, it's the same thing as laughing at the blooper reels on movies. What gives us the right to laugh at those actors? They worked so hard, and they really enjoy what they do! ... Well, it's funny when they mess up, and after all, they DID put those bloopers there for everyone to see. I think that gives us every right to laugh.

In a similar vein, there's the famous stage analogy. When you get up in front of people, we expect that you've washed your hair, maybe used a little bit of tasteful makeup, and are dressed appropriately for the performance. What badfic writers do by posting unedited, stream-of-consciousness, I-wrote-this-at-one-am-lol, or this-is-based-on-a-dream-lol, drivel, is get up on stage naked, having not bathed for a week, wearing rancid mayonnaise and fish heads and scream "LOOK AT ME! TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF ME! PLZ REED N REVUU!" ... Why is it wrong to say the performance stinks?

Like others have said, the fics we PPC don't show any evidence of really trying their best or thinking it through. We look for the stories that haven't been spell-checked, or that include completely false information about canon or real life (bad science is a particular annoyance for me)--especially when those errors are funny. If they really cared and tried their best, we wouldn't go after them, because they wouldn't be so chock-full of funny errors.

I think the main argument is that putting your work up in a public place, like ff.net, is an implicit consent to all forms of review--it says so in the Terms of Service, as I recall. Not all those reviews are going to be pleasant. If you can't handle that, no matter what your age, then you shouldn't post. As it is your privilege to post, it is our right to respond to it how we will.

~Neshomeh

I also point out that the PPC doesn't usually approach fic in which the author actually tries. In fact, excuses like 'I WROTE THIS WHILE HIGH' or "LOL SUGAR RUSH' are our tip offs TO MAKE FUN OF THEM. Usually the errors we catch are really, really bad spelling and grammar errors that even a kid in grade school knows is wrong and posts anyway, and things that happen in writing when the person *doesn't* care. The fics we spork are born of somebody not caring one saturday night and writing about Usagi Naruto LeLonde the Third smooching up Serverus Snape and somehow growing sparkly pink wings and becoming Jesus. That is not something somebody writes when they intend to write a story for others. They do it for their own entertainment, and then post it... perhaps they think it's good? When I got a constructive crit I felt bad for a second, but then I learned from it.

If a single PPC mission goes out of its way to be mean to the writer or to be really and honestly cruel, then somebody here will catch it. It's uncool among us to be evil, I feel. The gagging and the gasping for air in the sporking is meant as a satire, as a comedy. Killing the Mary Sue is often comical (Nobody cries when an anvil falls on Wile E Coyote) or after a well-established string of offenses so it makes SENSE to do so. Any Suethor, if they read a sporking fully, would see this.

Flamers are harsher than us and crush more small children every day. But the kids won't stop writing-- some just want attention? I did when I was little. The 'lol i luved it' comments may make them feel better, but they'll never score the 'You are an amazingly good writer, I especially liked the part when...' comments with what they have got.

I WISH somebody PPCed my oldfic.

I point out that on her profile page she has a kitschy 'things my mother taught me' list and then ends it with "If you believe in Jesus Christ put this in your profile and don't just ignore this, because in the Bible it says if you deny me, I will deny you in front of my Father in the gates of Heaven."

Nothing against the religion. But the 'do it or else' mentality posted without thinking hints to me the sort of person she is. Not one filled with bad intentions-- I am sure she thought the kitschy list was cute. But one that doesn't think of all of the insinuations of what she says, or what her opinions really mean to others.

I am loathe to call her stupid, because she is your friend and I doubt she is unintelligent. But her argument and her general attitudes upon skimming her fics smell somewhat of somebody who doesn't take the time to try and understand others fully...

As Indemaat said, mocking story =/= mocking author, but some authors can't tell the difference. It seems to me that your friend is trying "attack is the best form of defence" and is worried about her own stories being PPCed now that someone she knows is in a position to draw them to our attention. She might not consciously think of it in those terms, but it is the sort of reaction one might expect from a paticularly protective ficwriter who's found out about us.

My response would be along the lines of, "If they are trying their best, why are they making such a mockery of the worlds they claim to love? If you care about [insert fandom here], you don't write things that warp it so badly. And if they can't handle criticism, they shouldn't be putting their writing up where people can criticise it." Possibly along with some reassurance that we don't really go after mediocre fics, only actually bad ones.

*hugs for a Xanthia* It's not an easy situation, but stick by your principles. We're not here to coddle writers, but we don't bully them either. Good luck!

PPC is not about insulting the author, if anything, it is about insulting the story the author wrote. If the author can't separate their own ego from their story, that for the most part is their problem.

And though I am not a fan of this particular defense: What gives you the right to insult writers? The part of your country's constitution/laws that insure you freedom of speech. The same articles that give badfic authors the right to insult/rape the canon source material.

That bit about parents helping their five-year-olds post fic on the interwebs. Seriously? I'm sure there are parents how think the internet is just like their refrigerator at home when it comes to showcasing their kids projects, but then the parents would post the story on an account of their own, to show how proud their are and receive compliments.

On the other hand, you could decide to put a little effort into trying to find out more about the author. For instance, I decided that I should only PPC stories written by people 16 and older. They are old enough to know better than to write badfic. And can't use the "but I'm just a little kid" argument.

One, four or five year olds should not be writing fanfiction, even if their parents consent. There's an age limit on ff.net for a reason.
Two, even if someone is at the younger end of the spectrum, that doesn't really change anything. I joined ff.net at thirteen, wrote some crap, found Pottersues and the PPC and was not ultimately scarred for life. Admittedly I have never had a fic PPCed, but other people have with no lasting effects.
Three, we don't insult writers. We insult their stories. They could get better, and then we shall praise them.

Hope that helps. =D

checked her profile and wow...that's a lot of twilight fics. I don't think you'll be able to reason with her, but I really think what the PPC does is just tough love. All you're doing is pointing out flaws in the stories the have chosen to share with the world. If they want to humiliate themselves by throwing a fit over it then it's not your problem, though it is kind of funny.

If she thinks that's a valid argument, tell her about some of the ones with perfect grammar and spelling but horrifically squicky content. (Warn her in advance before actually showing her C*l*br**n or similar.)