Subject: *applause*
Author:
Posted on: 2010-12-12 17:51:00 UTC
Wow. Thank you for injecting some humor into a very thorough critique of that inaccurate, inexplicable piece of vitriol.
Subject: *applause*
Author:
Posted on: 2010-12-12 17:51:00 UTC
Wow. Thank you for injecting some humor into a very thorough critique of that inaccurate, inexplicable piece of vitriol.
http://www.discovery.org/a/907
This is the ONLY reference in Wikipedia's Eustace Scrubb article. That is just pitiful.
However, it does strike a chord. And that's why I leave it to your sarcastic and vicious intellects to tear this thing apart, because I love Narnia. And Tolkein. But I can't garner good arguments.
Yeah, she targets Arda too:
"It's easy to have problems with the racial attitudes of The Lord of the Rings, with those heroic, tall, blond Elves talking Welsh, and the ghastly dark, squat, hairy little
Orcs with their Turkish consonants."
Fighting words:
" Lewis's creed of clean-living, muscular
Christianity, pipe-smoking, misogyny, racism, and the most vulgar snobbery"
This is really rather upsetting. So I bring the article here for your opinions, pretty sure that one among the many will provide some cold comfort and others, none. I'll take what I can get.
"I wish you had been there, my dear, to have given him one of your put downs. I quite detest the man!"
~Mrs. Bennett, Pride & Prejudice
The article is by Kathryn Lindskoog.
Because of course it's reasonable to expect an author to go by social mores and standards which weren't common until fifty years after the books in question were written! *sigh*
I seem to be running into a lot of frothingly angry rants about popular fiction lately. Some of them have a better point than others. This isn't one of the better ones.
Now, when I was eight I got through the first three chapters of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe before losing interest, and I never got around to trying them again, so I can't give much of an opinion in terms of accuracy.
That said, I've taken Honors English classes all throughout high school, so I know what a good essay is and this is not a good essay. While it's important to avoid having a wishy-washy or passive voice, this author's tone is far too forceful, almost insulting to the reader. It relies on the use of strong language to make its point, and thus it's difficult to be taken seriously.
Furthermore, in all the types of essays I've ever written, be they persuasive or analytical or any other, my teachers have stressed the importance of evidence to back up one's claims, and clear, specific examples from the work that are explored, explained, and connected to the writer's point. The few examples this writer brings up are vague and confusing, making it clear that it never occurred to this writer that there would be a few readers (like myself) who are not familiar with the series. I always learned, when writing essays, to assume the readers know nothing of the issue or piece of literature I'm addressing, because there will always be a few readers who do.
Now that I've said this, I have the sudden urge to lock myself in my room and read every single one of them straight through. I'll try and wait until winter break rolls around.
But I don't recommend starting at the Magician's Nephew or the latest Dawn Treader movie. Neither are the best of their respective collections.
Having read the article and the discussion so far, I'm content to dismiss the article as the drivel it is. As Sylibane points out so entertainingly, the author fails at every turn to support his arguments with evidence, and therefore can be dismissed as a serious essayist.
I actually considered that it might be a piece of sarcasm, mocking other people who actually do believe those things, but I doubt it. It's just a screed.
Now, I do take issue with anyone applying this kind of thinking to a fantasy world. Here's the thing: if you're writing about countries that are at war, you are naturally going to characterize the "bad guys" in a way that makes them seem bad to your audience, so they can cheer for your protagonists. If you're going to tell me that it's racist to characterize cannibalism and/or human sacrifice and/or serving an evil demigod as bad, or that it's racist to make people from a hot place have dark skin, then we have a serious problem. Using the prejudice of your audience as a shortcut for that characterization--"brown people = evil" in the absence of any other defining characteristics--that's a different issue, but I'd like to see the proof for that in Tolkien's or Lewis' case.
~Neshomeh
The article (near as I can tell) is by Philip Hensher, who wrote it for The Independent, which newspaper he is a columnist and book reviewer for. Kathryn Lindskoog is the editor of the journal entitled The Lewis Legacy, in which the article was reprinted.
That said, while several of the points he makes are sound, the tone of the article leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Hensher vastly overstates his case. I understand that he was writing for a newspaper and therefore impartiality wasn't really what he was going for, but when you call the subject of your article "ghastly, priggish, half-witted, money-making drivel" I begin to think that you're either compensating for the weakness of your arguments, or attempting to manipulate me with a kind of appeal to emotion. Personally, I don't like being manipulated. I really don't like being manipulated.
On a personal note, I have burned two books in my lifetime, simply because having them in my house gave me a sick feeling that wouldn't go away. It was an emotional thing. I didn't talk to anyone about it, just quietly tore them up and fed them into the fire at a family marshmallow-roasting session. It was extremely satisfying. While there are things in the Narnia series that struck me wrong, they don't even approach that level. And, furthermore, they're fun, interesting stories that hold a special place in my heart.
And with that, I once more retreat into the shadows of Real Life and Lurkerdom (TM). ;)
In the Appendices to LotR, it is quite clear that the white, racially superior Numenoreans caused one of the greatest catastrophes in the world and that their colonial enterprise in Middle-Earth was concurrent with and contributed with their moral and physical decline. Not merely that, but later in the timeline, the only King of Gondor (a Numenorean remnant state) who actually cared about racial purity was a Complete Monster who nearly brought his kingdom to ruin (but as he discriminated against Blonde-haired people, albeit ones with a shorter lifespan and inferior material culture, that may not count *snigger*).
As for the Orcs, while Tolkien did describe them as "Mongolian-Types", he carefully added a parenthesis saying (To Europeans). While further background material (Morgoth's Ring) showed that he may not have intended for the "Orcs are converted Elves" thing in The Silmarillion to be canon, he still agonized over how Orcs can be "Always Evil all the Time".
Speaking of The Silmarillion, background material to it shows that Tolkien had always intended for many, many, Elves to be foolish, violent, and impulsive Jerkasses. That said, the Blonde ones (Finrod Felagund and his family) are the most good of the lot, but they no racism whatsoever to Men, who are racially inferior except for some esoteric gifts (the ability to leave the world after death and to control their own destinies, but those are obviously not genetic). In fact, one of them even sacrifices his life for a non-blonde human so that an interracial marriage can occur.
Now, back to LotR. While it is true that the Easterlings and Southrons (who may or may not be different from the Haradrim) are described as "Dark Men" under the service of the "Dark Lord" Sauron, the Appendices reveal that said "Dark Lord" had many White-skinned minions as well (in fact, the Cosairs of Umbar were descended from the followers of the Gondorian king I mentioned earlier, the one who belived in racial purity). Not just that, but a noble of Gondor (Forlong the Fat), had Non-Numenorean blood and his followers fought just like the Easterlings. He later dies, but all mentions of him are of a positive nature (all this is omitted in the Tv.Tropes article "Gondor Calls For Aid, which is just sad).
Not just that, but other examples of Good Easterlings also appear in The Silmarillion and the background material to it reveals that originally, all Easterlings were to be given the chance to rebel against the first Dark Lord, Morgoth. Not merely that, but the Southrons/Haradrim (the supposed african analogues) were established to have been deceived by Numenorean agents (Herumor and Fuinur, I may be misspelling the latter) under the service of the Dark Lord Sauron.
-End.
Okay, this is going to be harder not just because at least one Boarder (Cassie-Cameron-Young) agrees with the "Narnia is misyoginist" position. This is also a reply to some of doctorlit's points.
First, the Susan thing. When I read it, I thought that it was Susan's denial of Narnia and possible descent into materialism that barred her from Aslan's country, not a supposed growth into sexual maturity as she already had one during her reign as Queen of Narnia (where she was called Queen Susan the Beautiful, and had many princes ask for her hand in marriage). In fact, The Horse and His Boy shows Adult!SexuallyMature! Susan in a positive light, able to make the right decisions regarding future romantic partners. In fact, the only hint that her ban from the Afterlife resulted from such a cause are lines about "Trying to grow up too fast" and "Only interested in lipsticks, nylons, and invitations" which could be applied to assuming an "adult" image too fast, too soon.
Then again, Cassie could have heard these points already, so if she makes a reply to this saying so, I won't make a rebuttal. I'm already distressed that I have to fight with a friend, and don't wish this argument to continue. Sorry if that was Narm-ish.
I'm on far better metaphorical ground regarding the Calormenes=Muslims contention, though. To me, the Calormenes are closer to Carthaganians and Babylonians, North African and Middle Eastern cultures that did practice Polytheism and Human Sacrifice (at least as far as Lewis knew). Not merely that, but we also have two Calormene characters that are positively portrayed (Aravis Tarkheena from The Horse and His Boy and Emeth Tarkan from The Last Battle). While that isn't much, the fact that the Calormenes' capital city, Tashbaan is also a prominent part of Aslan's Country where only good things go shows that there is room for contention.
Note however, that those characters have received criticism (Emeth got placed in the "Fox News Liberal" article on Tv.Tropes, last time I checked) and I know I haven't covered all the bases. So I'll just leave this part to other people more used to debate, even though I'm still more sure about this.
Okay, I'm a coward regarding this, and I haven't even started on how women other than Susan are portrayed (which is also a debate). It's not in my nature to start a debate, especially against my friends. Not merely that, but I've said rash things in the past (especially in the thread about the Anti-Sporking Essay), and I don't wish to do so on such a charged issue.
Adieu and Sorry, Wikimaster.
I have my opinion on the issue, yes, but I'm not going to argue or fight or get butthurt because someone else has a different opinion. I'm not sure what you meant about having to fight with a friend, but rest assured I'm not going to be involved in any fighting over this topic.
It's all about interpretation; I have one, which may or may not be 100% accurate, but everyone else is free to make their own. So no worries, 'kay? :)
I made a poor choice of words there. *headdesk*
I was angry at the writer of the Article, and I didn't pay attention to the part where I mentioned you. I apologize if I made you look bad. It's just that the fact that you (an intelligent person and a good writer) appeared to share the opponent's side made me less sure of my arguments and that discomfited me. A little. Sorry again!
I wasn't offended, honestly. I'm flattered that you have such a good opinion of me, and to be honest I hadn't really considered things the way they've been presented n this thread. It's given me a reason to start reconsidering my stand on Lewis's writings. So I guess I should thank you for opening my mind a bit more.
Thanks! :D
You're welcome!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AyxZnAVoh4Y7T-bIepZ-G7cIDT5oRElb33tczBGXoB4/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMTN_PkI&pli=1#
Whew. That was a doozy. My comments are blue.
Wow. Thank you for injecting some humor into a very thorough critique of that inaccurate, inexplicable piece of vitriol.
The MST of the article as quite enjoyable... but now I want to slap whoever wrote it, as the whole thing is a mean-spirited and idiotic rant.
(Though I never got why Susan was left out of the last book, that part always bothered me...)
By the way, how long is this thing? I looked at it (the MSTed version) on google docs, and I'm only getting one page...
When I go on Google Docs, only one page comes up. Any suggestions?
Calling C. S. Lewis unimaginative? Oh really? Makes it hard to take the author too seriously. One point I do agree on is Susan's being kept out of Narnia in the end. It struck me as a sudden chain-yank in the midst of the feel-good uniting of all the former Narnia protagonists. There was never any previous evidence in Susan's character of her being less devoted to Aslan than any other Pevensie, though to be fair, we hadn't seen her for a few years before The Last Battle. Some of the author's other points are also at least somewhat justified, like the negative portrayal of the Calormenes as stand-ins for Islamic nations, but the fact is, the Chronicles were all written over fifty years ago, now, and C. S. Lewis can't help being a product of his time anymore than another person can.
I had been interpreting Susan's "turn to lipstick" as a metaphor for sexuality, as others apparently have. I like Wikimaster's literal interpretation of materialism better; that's something I can accept being kept out of Narnia for. I still don't like that it came out of nowhere for her characterization, though.
Sylibane, your mini-MSTing made me have to stifle laughter as my family slept. It also reminded me another problem I have with this essay(?), namely that it assumes children can be permanently damaged by encountering new ideas. The author seems to assume children are instantly won over by a story's values just because there are fantasy creatures and magic in said story.
tl;dr: Essay's author never believed in Santa, is bitter the Pevensies got presents directly from Father Christmas.
Also social status and shallow popularity... i.e., caring more about what you look like and what people think of you than about things that matter.
Susan's loss of faith is foreshadowed in Prince Caspian. She's the last one to see Aslan after they return to Narnia.
My copy of Chronicles is buried right now...I maybe should have dug it up when this discussion started!
It looks like the person who created that website was merely collecting articles written by other people and hosting them on her website.
As for the article itself, well... Given that we don't know much of the writer's background besides the fact that he apparently didn't like the books as a kid, I can't honestly rip this article apart. Yes, it makes me angry to see drivel like that, but I also have to realize that since I don't know the context of said piece, I can't properly rationalize going into a tizzy about it.
Okay. Thank you.