Subject: Re: Yes... and No.
Author:
Posted on: 2010-09-02 03:54:00 UTC
*applause*
Stick with what you've been writing and spending a lot of time on. Better that than a rushed job by far.
And don't respect me for being me!
~Pads, who has now read all responses at Sedri's prompt, and is buggering off again.
All right, let's start this. Most of you probably don't see me as the source of this sort initiative, especially as I'm still a newbie at heart, and more than a year on this Board has not changed that (I've also done a lot of things that I'm not proud of, but this is not the thread to disscuss that).
However, I do pay attention to when someone speaks about the PPC state of affairs. I was there when the gradual descent into 'Cerebus Syndrome' was seen, and spoken out against. I was also there when the first 'PPC: more than just killing stuff' thread was established. I didn't post in either of them, but I think I got the message.
Anyway, Pads is right. Anyone with half a brain can see that (although I somtimes wonder if I even have a brain) We've been overtaken by the "See Sue. Hunt Sue. Kill Sue" ethos, and most people outside the PPC know us only for that. I've only read a few Bad Slash fics (as Slash isn't my thing) but I've always tought that it was an Important part of the PPC, both in-universe and out.
As I only read a few missions at a time, I always tought that the Bad Slashers, the people from Despatch, and the others in the 'no killing departments' were still there, doing their work. I didn't even notice that Trojie and Paddlebrains were on hiatus, and I tought that they were still doing the work that made the PPC much more than a bunch of Blood Knights.
Now that one of the people I admired (even though I rarely read her work) is gone, I would like to finally try to start something by myself. I know that I would probably get some things wrong, but there's no harm in trying, at least in this matter. As this is already a long and rambling post, I'm going to type my proposed solutions to this matter in another one. Please post your replies to it instead of this one.
I think the most interesting missions are the ones that deal with unique problems. Some of these are Sue missions of course, but many are not.
The main problem with Sue missions seems to be that the only problem the agents are facing is that there's a Sue in the story, and the only solution used is to kill the Sue. That gets repetitive. (Bad Slash missions that go "Observe, optionally get squicked, exorcise, neuralyze" are similarly formulaic.)
Whereas, if there are unique complications, it gets more interesting. Bumbling agents, "unique" grammar, mischievous minis, hostile environments, equipment malfunction, personality conflicts... the list goes on. Whether there's a Sue to kill or not, the mission can't just be about killing her. We've seen that already. A lot. It was new when TOS was written; but it's not new now, and we can't just keep copying what's been done ten times already.
Let's not forget the fun factor. I try my best to make sure my missions don't get repetitive and seek out badfics with more than just the standard problmes, but it still has to be fun. That's generally what keeps my missions from being about killing the Sue - the fun. I'm not disagreeing with you; I just don't want to push people too far in the other direction.
The fun factor is part of why I think formula missions are "too easy"--how's it fun to be utterly predictable?
When I think of making a mission funny, it's usually in terms of the little details - funny remarks, odd manifestations due to bad wording and so on. But I see what you mean, and you're right; overall, my missions probably aren't all that funny. I'll have keep this in mind - cheers :)
Hey, I've been reading PPC missions for a while, and I agree with you. I tend to enjoy bad slash missions the most myself, though other types can be hilarious in the right circumstances. Remember the sandwich man?
...but forgot. Anyway, inauspicious beginning aside, here are the proposed solutions to this dilemma that I promised. Others can probably add more, but for the moment, here are my two cents:
-First, we should look for more badfics where killing isn't really necessary. Not just Slash (which squicks me out) but Het, Frienship, Family, Despatch, Crossover, and Platonic Hurt/Comfort (if such insist). We have an entire Multiverse of fics that we're ignoring just because there's no one worthy of shooting, chopping, or throwing into a Volcano.
An example of the sort of fic I was talking about is the Crossover one that was sporked by Barid and Neshomeh. While there was a killing in the mission, it was only to show how wrong an Agent can be sometimes, especially when he is unbalanced. Plus, it was undone eventually.
-Second, put more emphasis not just in the Department of Bad Slash, but also in the Division of Bad Het, which does exist, though it only has one mission. There will always be those of us that can't handle slashy subject matter (like me) but that doesn't mean that going down the path of the Blood Knight who only lives only to kill things.
If you'd always wanted to exorcise OOC Aragorn who falls in love with equally OOC Eowyn, then just ask if you can do so, instead of passing that fic by to kill the Flourescent Daugther of Elrond and Galadriel. She can wait, there are plenty of others intrested in taking her head as a thropy.
Okay, I've exhausted my brain just to come up with those ideas, but I'm sure that the one I came up with will go a long way towards what I'm trying. I hope that I've written my post well, and I give my sincere thanks towards those who read it. Thank you for your time.
It's not just Bad Slash and OOCness that needs to be fixed. DOGA, for example, may have to deal with Sues a lot; but there are fics where the geographical aberration is the only actual issue. And what if the writer royally messes up the time scale, so that the canon forces dead characters to live on as canon zombies, and forty-six-year-olds to have forty-eight-year-old sons? Then there's the DTE and the Technical Errors in many fics: What if the problem isn't that there's a Sue, but that the canon's name has been made possessive without an S so many times that there are now two of him? Or that a consistent misspelling has created a ypur-like beast that's rampaging across the canon? I mean... wow... there are SO many things you can mess up about a fic without any Sues at all.
But yes, you are right about those kinds of fics.
It's much easier to find badfic in the pit than to find goodfic, and yet it's ignored solely because it doesn't have OCs listed.
Criticize grammar and you're bound to make mistakes yourself!
It is called Muphry's Law.
a lot of these ideas 'how to do a mission without killing a Sue?' are big ideas, while such missions can easily be found in goodfic. And wouldn't we all much rather read goodfic than badfic.
For instance, an author and/or their beta reader might have overlooked a typo, or a Briticism, or plain typing in the wrong character's name. Examples from my own missions:
Mission #8: American character is holding a brollie. Agents go in to give him an umbrella.
Mission #11: Agents go into the story to remove a canon character that accidentally ended up in the fic.
Mission #14: Agents give cc a manicure because author had given him callus on his hands.
Mission #20: Agents talk an original character out of out of character behaviour. (The fic actually featured a massive Sue, but also spanned 50 chapter and I didn't want that epic a mission)
Mission #22: Agents need to sober up a character who canonically doesn't drink alcohol.
Mission #27: Agents go into story because cc is holding on to a gun the wrong way round.
Mission #32: Agents go into story to present a character with the regulations on saluting in doors.
If anyone cares to read these missions: all can be found on my lj using the tag 'minimission'.
And not on my lj yet, but most definitely not about killing: Agents talk character out of killing himself
Cassie, have I met the requirements of your challange or should I write something new?
If we're going to make a change, it has to start with what people see when they join up. That means the Wiki and the Links. The latter is easy--maybe we use a link to the Complete List of PPC Fiction, which is by department, rather than the List of Killed Badfic, which is by canon. Maybe we include Bad Slash, DOGA, and any other particularly influential departments specifically as recommended reading.
The Wiki, however, will take more than the efforts of just one or two people. Personally, I feel this is something someone who wants to see a specific change happen ought to take charge of, as they would know best what should be done and where, but there are a couple of things I can think of:
1) Let's put the Complete List of PPC Fiction in true alphabetical order, shall we? The DMS is not at the top of that order. In fact, that's so bloody easy I'll go do it as soon as I'm done here.
2) The FAQs. Particularly the FAQ for Other People, if Araeph doesn't object; it is particularly heavy on Sue-centricism. Maybe she herself wouldn't mind re-writing it with other approaches to PPCing in mind, or maybe we'll do it in a separate thread as a group later on.
Finally, one thing that no one else has mentioned, but that I feel is very important, is reviewing. Some of you are very good about it, but you are few and far between. I don't even count myself among you, although I have been trying. How, exactly, do people know their work (DBS, DMS, or otherwise) is appreciated if we don't review it--with, mind you, the in-depth, constructive kind we all expect to get? Particularly in cases of those who use journals (or the Wiki, as I do), there is really no excuse for not doing this. The option is there; it doesn't go away just because the plugging thread falls of the Board or you have to go do something else for a while. So don't forget, and don't leave it at "Good mission!" or "I liked it!" If compliments can be insulting, that kind are. I, at least, expect more of this community. At minimum, have the courtesy to say WHY you liked it, or WHAT in particular made it good. Got it?
Okay.
~Neshomeh + $0.02
So if you guys need things done with the wiki, I could work on it. But I don't want to change anything fundamental without being told what's wanted, as I'm not senior enough to know what's best to change. :)
I'm prepared to trust you. :)
This is going to be a lot of work, but it'll be worth it.
(I have to dash off now, but I'll be back and able to help later today or tomorrow.)
Because man there's a lot of that. (Someone who's been shot that many times shouldn't be walking! Arterial bleeding does not work that way! Wait, what's Haldir doing in Mordor?) And the ending of that could just be to patch up injuries and send everyone back to where they should be, maybe (but not necessarily) killing really objectionable and canon-breaking OCs.
Or would that fall under DAVD?
But that's a good point - I'm going to try to find some of thsoe. Cheers!
Does it matter to the DAVD if the torture is deliberate on the author's part, or accidental because random gore is being thrown around and/or the author has no concept of what the human (or whatever) body can actually take? It's still torture, and still disturbing. Like in the chat room the other day, somebody mentioned a fic with a character having sex with a vampire for three weeks straight. Without breaks. Now tell me that isn't disturbing--it's a recipe for one gruesomely, horribly dead canon!
Anyway, yeah, we haven't had DAVD missions in a while yet. However nausea-inducing they tend to be, there's just way too much gratuitous torture!fic out there for it not to come to the PPC's attention.
I guess it depends on your definition of "disturbing" - or, that of the Intelligence reporter, I suppose. I doubt you'll have anyone telling you that a fic doesn't qualify unless it's full of fluffy unicorns - and a case can be made for that, too. *shudder*
It might be time for Miah and Cali to check into a bad Sheppard or McKay whump fic.
AAAARGH I should have just stuck with the being gone. Please, for the love of fluffy little kittens, don't. That sort of fic deserves a category of its own.
I know I have read some doozies in the past, but I am actually having a lot of trouble finding one this time.
Search for absolutely any pairing you can think of on livejournal or ff.net. 90% of the results will be grim McShep whumpage. You will want to gouge your eyes out with a very spiky spoon. (Particularly if, like me, you've been a McBeck shipper since day one.)
I think that this would probably be DAVD territory, yes. The original DAVD dealt with torture/murder fics generally, but this kind of fic sounds right up their alley--you know, where the injuries are simply extreme and gory, or else minimized to the point that you've got canons who should be dead but are being forced to walk around and act pretty much normal.
My suggestion: Transfer an agent from Medical and have them go on field missions with the goal of keeping the canons alive. Think of them as something like the PPC's version of a paramedic. I can definitely see them carrying bleepphene injectors for the more painful cases.
It's tough to really find a fic that fits the bill and isn't a Legendary, but that is an interesting approach. We've been sort of treating the one we're working on now as an escort mission, getting the canons through the chapters without being horribly murdered. Progress has been slow because we've both been busy, especially Spud, but we're still chipping at it.
Could you provide suggestions of some suitable badfics for this type of mission? Preferably in a continuum where it won't take much work to read (or watch) the source material as most of what I've been reading lately is unlikely to have this type of badfic based on it.
Modren, my potential Agent, would be very suitable for this sort of thing.
I'm really only in the LotR fandom, so if that's not one of yours, it is a lot of catch-up. Give me some time, though, and I'll see what I can find in other canons I know.
My potential agents are pretty keen on it too - Jackson wasn't too keen on killing things :P I'm now thinking of making them Floaters rather than Assasins, but if we can find enough crappy action/adventure, it could be its very own department...
since I've read the books or watched the movies, and I've never read anything beyond The Hobbit and LoTR. Were I to be dealing with badfics from LoTR fandom I'd need to do a fair bit of reading so as to be up on the canon. Or be partnered with a writer who is.
Come to think of it I don't think I've done either since the last movie was in theaters and we went there as a family.
I think I will look through the stack o books I'm storing for my spawn to find her copies of LoTR and The Hobbit. They're well worth rereading and once I've done that I can seek out the other books at the library. I also need to reread them if I'm going to write a fanfic I have an idea for.
Lately I've been reading mostly Discworld, which doesn't lend itself quite so well to Epic Adventure stories.
For the most part, just LotR and the Hobbit would probably do the trick for these ones, though obviously more canon is more better and any time reading Tolkien is time well spent in my opinion, so I'm biased. :P
Yeah, I went looking for suitable Discworld fics and found one involving Vetinari and some werewolves, but for the most part it was just... rather strange.
I found my spawn's copy of 'The Hobbit' easily and will read it this week. Then I'll search for the other books.I might also take the time to watch the movies, since my understanding is a lot of LoTR badfic is based on movie canon. Possibly because the writers lack the reading comprehension for the books.
That's certainly true for Sues and much of the Bad Slash I have glancingly encountered, and Aragorn and Legolas are common victims of bad action, but there's also a lot of attention shown to book-only characters such as Glorfindel, Erestor and the twins. Still, I think a basic knowledge of who they are would work, since much of the time the stories don't follow the main plot.
Pads, one of our older, wiser and better members, is gone because we've ignored our heritage for too long. She's not the first of our oldbies to have left because of the turns we've taken. We are not the Protectors of the Missions With Sues In. We are not the Sue-Slaying Society. We are not the Anti-Sue Gang.
We! Are! The PPC!
We're the Protectors of the ENTIRE Plot Continuum! We may have started with Sues, but even Jay and Acacia acknowledged the other Departments. Hell, they created the very foundations of several - Lux and Sean, our beloved Bad Slashers; The Marquis de Sod, our refreshingly sadistic Head of Personnel; Medical, our everlasting prop when someone's pratfallen; and of course, they spent time in the Department of Implausible Crossovers, with the Lichen that sounds like John Cleese.
And no, I know they didn't have a beta-reader. Neither did Miss Cam, and I will not pretend that their stories were perfect. The content was excellent, but as Pads said, HELL they could have used a lot of grammar work. Incidentally, that's something else I've noticed is slipping a fair bit lately.
Slightly overdone dramatics over, I'm laying down a challenge to the entire PPC. Submit at least one non-Sue-slaying mission or other PPC writing by Hallowe'en. Normally I'd have said the end of September, but given it's back-to-school time and generally end-of-the-summer stuff for a massive number of people, I'm giving this a two-month deadline.
If you have Agents in Departments other than the DMS, fantastic. If not, have Intel "accidentally" send them the wrong mission, or have the Marquis assign one as punishment for some minor misdemeanour. Find a crossover or a bad slashfic or anything at all, or write a non-mission piece - an interlude, perhaps. There are more than just the Action Departments, too; look at our huge range of Infrastructure Departments and the work that goes on behind the scenes. A "Day in the Life", perhaps? Anything you like, as long as it is not focused on a Sue.
And before you post it to the public, GET IT BETA-READ. Get it gamma- and delta-read, if necessary. This does not mean showing it to someone, asking them to comment, and then posting it as-is. It means getting someone (preferably somebody with a good knowledge of English and/or the fandom) to read it thoroughly, and mark or point out any mistakes, inconsistencies, typos or just plain great whacking goofs. Then you fix the errors, ask your beta to check it again just to make sure, and once they're satisfied, THEN you post.
The PPC has a little pool of excellent beta-readers (one less, sadly, with Pads's departure), and I'm offering my services as a beta to anyone who takes up the challenge and sends me their piece in good time. I may have trouble with fandoms I don't know, but I'll be as on-the-ball as possible with spelling and grammar etc. issues.
So come on, people! Don't let the Sues take over the PPC to the point they make us forget the rest of the fandom blunders that are out there. Bring back our diversity!
I'm gone, really, but talking to Sedri, and noting that those who suggest change should be definitive, I'd like to add a rider.
Write a non-Sue featuring your usual agents. Having to get to grips with a new pair of agents makes it difficult - half the reason TOS works is you knew the agents, knew their characters, and cared about them. I'm fairly sure half the reason most of you like our Bad Slash missions is they're a bit of a soap opera, and that's no bad thing. Put your usual slaying agents into a non-Sue, and see how they react. It'll be a lot more interesting than new and unknown agents.
I might try and make it at least two, actually, since I have a mass-exorcism scriptfic and I'd also like to do some real Bad Slash for the challenge.
Also, this is a fabulous idea. Maybe people should also work on changing outside perception of the group, if we can - on TvTropes, for example?
Agent Shinra's either in the PPC Nursery or doing missions as a Spy, so I'm usually on that nowadays (although I haven't posted anything for the woeful lack of anything amusing to post). Either that, or she's off chasing the Clover. Still.
Some things never change.
I've been sketching out ways to get my assasin agent away from killing for a while now, and moving her into Crossover and Bad Het missions is exactly the plan, so a challenge deadline is exactly what I need. (Maybe I'll borrow Agent Iza, who gets naueseous at the sight of blood, back from Trojie for a little while...)
I think we're going to have to keep a very close eye on the Unclaimed and Claimed Badfic pages for the next few weeks, though - they're liable to explode...
My partner and I are currently in the middle of a mission, but if we can get that one finished on time, then I've found JUST the fic for us to do next.... Muahahhahhahahaha *ehem*
Though it may send both our Agents in search of Bleepsinth.
Or, in other words "Oh god, my eyes! they burn like fresh habanero juice on my bangs, that in turn get into my eyes!" (which actually happened last spring... Yes, this fic is that bad. At least to us...)
I understand where Pads is coming from, and Pads being Pads, I respect her completely. However, just because she leaves, I am not going to drop the one story I have painstakingly been trying to scratch out without a complete fail, and rush-produce something before Halloween.
My plans do include stories that are not all Sue killing, but, heck, I might not even make it there. I might just become so full of failures I stop trying.
--feeling optimistic--
*applause*
Stick with what you've been writing and spending a lot of time on. Better that than a rushed job by far.
And don't respect me for being me!
~Pads, who has now read all responses at Sedri's prompt, and is buggering off again.
Well, it depends on your definition of youself. Being too accustomed to exhibiting a 'fangirl' attitude, I'll suppress all the bootlicking and simply say that anyone that has worked as much as you have on their missions is amazing.
Add to that the fact that you're a Narnia fan...
Missions that are already mostly-complete should be exempt from this. :)
Missions that were already in progress, and are not being finished specifically for this challenge, can be exempted from being counted.
I'm in.
The longer deadline is definitely appreciated. :D
The one I'm working on isn't focused on Sues... unless cities can be Sues.
. . . like MsScribe on drama. There's a couple of notorious slashfics I've had my eye on for ages, and now would seem to be the perfect time to take 'em down.
Anyway, I doubt the Marquis de Sod would have given Suicide and Diocletian their weapons back right away, so a Bad Slash mission is entirely appropriate. :D
Incidentally, the next mission I'm doing is a non-Sue-slaying mission. Gorillaz fandom.
I am so in.
I know I'm still rather new, but I want to share how I have been feeling lately. The last several times that I have posted a story, I have considered myself extremely lucky to get two responses. It has been really discouraging, honestly. I have four stories that I still haven't posted, and I've been rather reluctant to post them. I'd rather have people ripping them to shreds, (so I can at least improve) than having them totally ignored. Whether it is true or not, I get to thinking that the reason they get no comments is that they don't meet PPC standards and no one wants to say so.
I have nine completed stories for Kelok and Unger, which number two interludes and seven missions. Six of those seven missions are bad slash. There are bad slash missions being written. I don't think I am the only one with a recent bad slash mission.
I have posted general board requests for Betas. I do very much appreciate the anonymous content comments I received, but I am sure that I had more than a couple of grammar errors, since grammar is my greatest challenge.
Please consider this as a second request for a serious grammar Beta. I know I need one.
Anyway, the probable whining is over, now. You can all go back to regularly scheduled programming.
I'm sorry I never got around to helping you back then. For some reason, I thought you had gotten help for those stories. Anyway, if you still need help, you can send one (or more) to me here: keyoflit@yahoo.com
It's hard. I try to read everything I can, but fact is that a lot of the time, people are writing missions in fandoms that I just don't know - Holmes, for example, is not a film I've seen, as you heard when I betaed for you before. It's very hard to beta for such stories.
And been largely ignored, except for Pretzel.
Send what you have to me for grammar, vocab, all that, but style and wisdom I have none of. Sorry.
Glad to know that I'm not the only one that secretly thinks to herself: "Is this whining? Maybe. Probably. Uh, yeah."
Sorry that I went and did the same thing before seeing this.
First of all, I understand exactly what you mean about responses, and I've also mentioned more and better reviews as something we can all improve on around here (with a few exceptions, such as you, who already give good reviews to just about everyone, which makes you awesome). See "More Ideas" above.
As for the beta-reading, my memory is that your last request was for four missions, and that freaked me out. I didn't want to volunteer for that many at once, especially on Google Docs, because I know I would feel overwhelmed and never get through them. I am notoriously slow even doing just one. That said, I will offer to take one of them, but I ask that you e-mail it to me as a .DOC file. Google Docs is great for collaboration, but I really don't like it much for editing.
And finally, you're not whining. Certain other parties dropped the ball when they forgot other people write Bad Slash missions, too, and I'd say you're justified in being upset at that.
~Neshomeh
Agreed. That last time was partially my fault. I should have posted them separately or made sure to make it very clear that I did not want one person to take all four.
Would you be okay with taking the priest one?
exswyzie14 at yahoo dot com, if you need the address.
I already have a non-killing Bad Slash exorcism mission in progress, but it's a Nine Inch Nails songfic which mutilates the song it uses, and my only pair of exorcists have both been established as knowing very little about and/or actively hating Nine Inch Nails. So, if anyone's got any Harry Potter Bad Slashers who would be able to point out the horrific mangling of NIN lyrics, I'd appreciate being able to borrow them. Pads was actually helping me with it ages ago, but she dropped out even before she stopped coming on the board and I haven't touched it since. I'll blow the dust off it for the challenge.
I've got an awful FMA x HP crossover sitting around that will do nicely. I hope this doesn't mean I can't finish the DMS mission I'm in the middle of first, though. >.>
~Neshomeh, who can totally finish two missions in two months. Probably.
I'm already writing a mission that involves the termination of an Author-Wraith before the infected canon rapes what was supposed to be his girlfriend (And isn't in the badfic, that smashes all the canon pairings). Still counts as "Sue killing"?
If it's not 100% OOC, it's still a canon and hasn't been replaced, which usually means possession, which means exorcism and subsequent beaning the 'wraith over the head with a copy of the canon.
So, it will count for the challenge. Good.
Even better since I was already doing it before this challenge ever existed.
Syaoran here has a verbal fight with Sakura (that in the badfic was dating Yue since Syaoran had to get back to Hong Kong), and then goes mad at her and... welll, you all understood. Bonus points because Sakura used the Hope card a few hours before that to bring him back to life since he was killed. It's only the tip of the iceberg. For example, the author involuntarily made it a crossover with CSI, since there was "csi and police" where Syaoran got killed. I don't know how crime scene investigation units are called in Hong Kong, but they're absolutely not CSI. (For example, here in Italy the name is RIS. And we too have a TV show about it.)
The badfic is NSFW and quite NSFB, but the mission will be funny, I promise. And since the badfic is quite short, it will also feature a bit of my agent's non-mission life.
It is already being done, and I don't just mean with Xericka and Gremlin (although I am going to be doing a lot more with them in the future.) I'm currently writing a Bad Parody exorcism with Danny and Laura. It should be ready for beta-reading soon.
if I'm going to actually become an active PPCer, as in seeking Permission, but if I do I promise my initial mission will not involve Sue Slaying. In fact the one character I have in mind as a potential agent would flat out refuse to go on an assassination mission.
I think having at least one active agent who refuses to kill, or even go on killing missions, would go a long way in showing that the PPC is not just about the slaying of sues.
He's a Healer, possibly a bit on the overpowered side, that keeps wanting to be inserted into my stories. I thought sending him on some PPC missions would help take him down a peg or two :D
On that thought I think I'll check when I posted my introduction and see if it's been a month or not yet.
But as soon as I've finished polishing that DMS mission, I'm finding me some Bad Slash/Het to kill.
I hope I'll have some time for writin's with my crazy schedule. My poor neglected agents will finally have the cobwebs dusted off. XD
I will redouble my efforts to find a badslash fic worth sporking so that I can roll out my new agent. I may even write an interlude in one of the infastructure departments.
-Barid