Subject: Dead men of Dunharrow.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-04-30 15:58:00 UTC
As I recall, Acacia was an androgynous Dead Man, whereas Jay was more masculine. And I think the British cheese elf persona may also have been male.
I'm not touting it as any form of canon, because it's not. It's just the feeling I got from Jay's characterisation when I read I this time.
I'm putting this in a new thread because I think it might fill up quickly with responses, as this question is about what seems to be a core element of PPC writing/characterization.
What is "Insanity", why does every living thing in the PPC have it, and why is it so important?
... writing for the PPC described as 'Monty Python's Improv Workshop', which I still think is pretty apt.
What it means is that a PPC story means taking whatever comes your way, such as:
-Being absolutely furious at a Mary-Sue ruining the Council of Elrond.
-Your co-writer making a typo in a common phrase.
-Your partner ruined your deck of cards
And, rather than glossing over it, using it (the Improv Workshop part), and putting a distinctly Pythonesque twist on it:
-Making sock puppets to tell the Sue off
-"It's a bit of a maze, unless you haven't noticed"
-Steal some from Saruman!
To use your example, while it might be funny once for someone to paint the walls with ketchup, random nonsense does not a good character make - "I enjoy pasta, because my house is made of bricks" is not a good personality type. Instead, how about a character who paints the walls with ketchup because they've heard there's a vampire in HQ and want to confuse it? Or because the Response Centre is made of chocolate and they want to stop their partner eating it? Both of those actions make sense - they're logical, if weird, responses to the situation.
And yes, sometimes people just do random things - and, because Jay was in fact a flake, "Monkeys have feet!" - but that's to do with the specific character, not the overall method.
As to why it's important... um, because it's one of the two reasons the PPC is funny, the other being snarky commentary on badfic. To turn the question around, if you don't understand that - what do you find funny about The Original Series?
hS
It might be better for someone to watch some Monty Python and other bits of British humour before writing for the PPC, because then they'd understand the sort of humour that goes into the PPC in the first place.
I know I didn't understand half of the jokes in the TOS when I first read it in sixth grade, but six years, more knowledge/experience, and plenty of British humour later, I can fully appreciate and write in the style of the TOS.
Oddly enough, though, there are no indications that Jay and Acacia were themselves British. Go figure, eh?
But yeah, I'd describe the humor in TOS as subtle, sometimes a bit dry, situational, and based on shared references/experiences. Lots of the laughs arise out of a sense of recognition—"I see what you did there!"—or camaraderie: "Yes, this! Been there! Seen that! Thank you for sharing!"
That's just me, though. What's funny is so subjective, it's probably a bit different for everyone. Personally, I don't think TOS is laugh-out-loud funny most of the time; but it makes me grin a whole lot. {= D
~Neshomeh
(But then again Jay also often adopted male personas whenever she could, which I find interesting in my latest reread mostly because I've been 'round the circuit at Tumblr and more or less come to the conclusion that Jay could've been genderfluid, or not identifying as female all the time - but that's a different matter altogether and I should probably not read too much into it.)
Since TOS is written in American English and the two of them usually use American slang and words I figure they just consume a lot of British media and it shows in their sense of humour.
After all, humour of the likes of Python usually require a wider range of knowledge about the world, which is probably the reason why it goes over the average person's head. It's easy to laugh at things like bad puns and pratfalls, but it takes more thinking to get one of those sly references.
I think I now write in more sly references than I ever did before, thanks to this. It's fun trying to find who gets what reference.
I've always thought they were Australian. I...don't quite know why.
Just remember that if you see an ancient Roman mural that looks suspiciously like Elrond in a museum.
Jay just... visits occasionally.
hS
I wonder how Acacia's getting along in ancient Rome.
And I may have to look into that "Elrond in a museum" thing.
Is it just me, or does 'Elrond in a museum!' sound like it belongs with 'Radagast on a Bunny Sled!' and all the rest?
Most Creative Curses deal with something irritating or canon-shifting, prime examples being Jadis randomly materializing in ice during the Prince Caspian movie and Thranduil's inexplicable possession of a majestic elk in An Unexpected Journey.
Elrond being in a museum sounds more amazing than facepalm-inducing.
"And if you look to your left, you will see the records made by ancient civilizations of a legendary ruler figure. Note the leaf-shaped ears, denoting a potential non-human role in local mythology."
(tourists snap pictures)
"No flash photography!"
I mean, I can see that.
Agent sees Rivendell for the first time?
"Elrond in a museum..." whispers the stunned agent.
...well, it might work...Anyway, I do agree that we should have creative things other than curses.
Actually, at some point I may try to compile a list of PPC expressions, including the Creative Curses and "Everyone and their mini". Not sure what else, although I'm sure that's not all there is...
~DF
After all, her jewellery spread all the way to Britannia... (about a third of the way down; you can search for her name).
She still gets occasional visits from her favourite flake, though. (Down at the bottom of the page - the italicised sections are canon, the rest is badfic)
hS
So now I'm being inspired to write badfic for FanFic Land, as well as hypothesizing that you're secretly an archaeologist who moved to Bath in order to find signs of Acacia's legacy. I do love conspiracy theories, don't you?
~DF
I know about the Corvid-the-Plaid incident, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head - and that one was pretty clearly to get in the joke (Istari being all male and all). What other examples are there?
hS
As I recall, Acacia was an androgynous Dead Man, whereas Jay was more masculine. And I think the British cheese elf persona may also have been male.
I'm not touting it as any form of canon, because it's not. It's just the feeling I got from Jay's characterisation when I read I this time.
Because the first time I read TOS, I was convinced that Jay was a guy. Huh. Apparently I wasn't stupid after all.
I'm serious; I kind of want to see how Jay and Acacia's partnership would change if Jay, Acacia, or both were male. I wonder how it would turn out...
~DF
Keep it up for the Badfic/AU fic Game. :'D
Will do :) When's the next one?
(Oh dear, this is going to end up so weird...)
~DF
although the last one happened in the fall. Ish.
Did I yell loudly enough? /innocence
Hm. I hope it's not in July...I'm probably not going to have much internet access then. That's probably going to be very annoying...I suppose I could always hand in a late submission or something.
~DF
The Fanficland badfic contests were usually in July, yes. The first FanficWorld one was in September last year. Either way, it's not for a while (and I'm thinking September to space it out better with the Shipfest).
That doesn't mean you can't start working on stories in advance, though...
hS
September would work out a lot better, at least for me (hinthint) It does work well for spacing, too.
As for working on stories in advance--I'm currently writing next year's April Fool's Day mission, because the plotbunny glomped me and I know I won't have so much time next year (exams start around then). And yeah, it was far too much fun to do just once. It's a different sort of joke, though. I'm having a lot of fun with it...
*goes off to brainstorm ideas for --ok, just nearly wrote 'Jay/Acacia genderbender fic'. I...may have to take that as a sign of what I should write. Wow. Should be...interesting...
~DF
Hehe. Genderbending. The sixth form of 'Bending in ATLAverse.
Congratulations, you've just given me my plot device. I think.
And no, I know very little about ATLA. And I don't intend to learn, so that when I write this it can be suitably awful.
'Sixth form of 'Bending.' :D
~DF
Where Aang learned genderbending. I stopped partway through.
But seriously, though, a genderbender would be an excellent addition to any army. With a wave of xir arm, the enemy forces would suddenly have forcibly rearranged internal anatomies. They would stop, wondering about their sudden changes, possibly feeling a little bit more in tune to their fellow man, or as he is now, fellow woman. When one's identity can be changed so easily, is it not futile to see the world as requiring only one way of life? Are not their enemies people who, like themselves, are thrust into life not knowing where it will take them? They themselves woke up that very morning men, and were now women. Who is to say that the others were not suffering changes of their own, changes that might make their world turned far more askew than any battle ever would?
And then, while the invaders are being existentialist, BAM! Rain of arrows. Ironclad strategy.
Existentialist invaders. Wow. I'd quote Holy Musical B@man at you, but I know you don't know it.
Can you write this? Somehow? I don't know where it would fit in, or to what, but it would be awesome :D
~DF
Alternate scenario: the invading army, upon being turned into women, cannot properly cope with the new hormones flooding their system and turn into an enraged mass of estrogen-fueled destruction. They surge forward, weapons held high, intent on destruction. Every sexist comment they have ever heard or said suddenly comes to mind and furthers their anger, for as they are women now, they clearly don't want to be seen as inferior.
When the dust settles, only women remain alive on both sides. They form a pact - to create a sovereign state of women, by women, for women, where all men are met with death and despair. Their armies sweep across the globe, and in their wake is liberation for the oppressed females. Men are delegated to menial work, minding children and doing physical labor.
And in the end, women rule the world. And it is good.
That is all XD
~DF
Except for the violence, sexism, oppression, and enforced gender roles, you mean? *raises eyebrow*
~Neshomeh
Good for the women, obviously. Not so much for the men.
Or anyone who didn't identify as a traditional gender/sex/sexuality combination to begin with. Or anyone who thinks that oppression is bad for humanity in general, no matter who it's happening to this time. >.>
~Neshomeh, who knows it was a joke, but still. Oppression is bad.
... but what about all the situations where oppression is good? Like in that one place at that one time where that thing... happened... and therefore oppression was good?
You know what? Forget this.
Argument from Untranslated Old French! Dispute that if you can.
hS
~Neshomeh
And that's even better.
Well, everything becomes better when the Doctor is in, I guess? He was instrumental in fixing HQ last time I saw him around...
Yep, that's why I picked the one with the Doctor. There were many "your argument is invalid" macros to choose from, but I thought he was the most appropriate to this time and relative dimension in space. ^_^
~Neshomeh
... the exact same scenario takes place with the sexes flipped.
And a generation after that.
And a generation after that.
Etc etc etc...
(It's always good for the side that wins. ;))
hS
Ride, please stop the operator, I wanna get off. @.@
~Neshomeh
The bit about the flipped oppression, that is.
~DF
Although now I'm picturing a Hunger Games-esque revolution...in a world vaguely like the Twilight-verse...
I should let go of that plotbunny while I still can, shouldn't I?
~DF
Let it grow.
That's a bad idea, isn't it? I mean, it's a bit too deeeeeep...never mind!
Ok, so: Jay and Acacia. Genderbend. AU. Sound bad so far?
Good.
Get ready, PPCers...FireDawn is going to make an appearance (ohmigosh my avatar-avatar has an evil fanbrat twin what is this), with her very first PPC fanfiction, which can't use Jaycacia as a shipname and...will therefore have to find another one.
(Yes, I know 'FireDawn' is obvious. Think Tristram/Tramtris. If it somehow worked for him...)
(Ok, fine, maybe I'll translate it into another language as well. But I like the Tristram reference, so maybe I won't.)
Seriously, what is with my brain these days? I keep on ending up with crazy plotbunnies.
~DF
Thank you. That made me laugh.
See, I thought you could be something like DuskWater - Dusk being the opposite of Dawn, Water being the opposite of fire. I've been thinking about "Bellatrix of Romulus" myself.
I look forward to this genderbend AU.
Was that mental image influenced by Kirk+tribbles, by some chance? Because that's what it's reminding me of.
~DF
What can I say, I like rabbits.
You're welcome :)
Oh, hey, that's pretty neat! I may use that, actually. Also, Bellatrix of Romulus sounds perfect XD
So do I. So far, I have a rather babble-y a/n, a disclaimer, and a ship name: Byrdtree. It also seems to be turning into two different badfics--one's the genderbent Twilight Games AU, and the other's a 'what if Jay was male all along (and this was written by a Suethor/badficcer)' sort of thing. (I forget--can we have multiple submissions? Or...)
No idea what the actual story's going to look like, though. I suppose I'll find out. I plan to reread some of TOS for inspiration...and then just throw in all the crazy ideas I can think of. Should be fun!
~DF
The Badfic Game is basically a weekish-long 'Pretend To Be A Badfic Author' game. Some people use that to write one long story (or, in my case, one chapter of a long story); others churn out four or five of the things.
A few other things worth noting:
-Not everything you write for FfW has to be bad. Someone wrote a very long very-AU PPC story last time, and actually I think the very first game featured Starwind writing a 'good-but-too-high-rated-for-the-PPC' story.
-Given that we're playing at being PPC fanfic writers, anyone else's characters (with the usual exception of Stormsong and Skyfire) are fair game. After all, you're /writing fanfic of them/ - liek, how can tEhy complain??? Immitashun is the best form of thinggy!
--Leading off that, it can actually be a good place to explore things you wish had happened. If you think that Jay and Acacia's relationship was fraught with UST* - or that Dafydd Illian was secretly gay** - or that Lux is suffering from depression*** - well, you can't write it as a PPC story, but FanficWorld is the perfect place...
*It wasn't.
**He wasn't.
***She really isn't.
-As my FfW persona JayBird demonstrates, your name doesn't have to refer to your Board name - though if you find it funny, that's fine too.
-You can have multiple pennames. This is mostly for people who want a fanthing persona to write with, and a scathing/something else penname to review under. The reviews are half the fun.
-Probably-obvious fact, but the FfW website is a nonfunctional archive. All stories, profiles and reviews are done on this Board, and transferred by me (which is why I rarely write very much).
hS
Scary, but fun!
Looks like I will finally have a place to put "The Myserious Somebody makes a Very Bad Day".
The Bog Thorn will never be the same, and all of the SunflowerOfficial's chips will be eaten. It will be a very bad day for the whole of the everybody involved. [/badfic phrasing]
Why can't people use Stormsong and Skyfire? It wouldn't be a problem for me, since I have no idea who they are, but why those two in particular?
I think it also has to do with the fact that Stormsong and Skyfire are used by Laburnum with permission from their original author, so it's about being able to control when they appear and not having them become an "open-source" character.
Since Laburnum probably got tired of saying 'Please can no-one use these two because etc etc' every time the possibility arose, I've started putting it into the rules and clarifications where possible.
hS
Not sure whether I'll have access to internet there. And even if I do, I wonder if they'll mess with Google Chrome. Hehe.
Have fun!
My grandparents were actually just there. They said they had a great time...
~DF
The Marquis is described as being actually friendly to Jay and Acacia. Sort of. It's surreal.
I didn't find very much funny. Maybe the jokes flew straight over my head each and every time I tried to read it, I don't know...
Can you give me a link to a (safe for work) fanfic you did find funny? That way maybe we can figure out why TOS makes some (most?) of us burst out laughing, but leaves you unmoved.
hS
I haven't really laughed at any writing aside from my old, horrible stuff that because it makes me wonder what the heck I was thinking back then.
Then again, I haven't looked at much fanfiction or other writing in the first place because I'm usually doing music-related things or playing games or arrgh
Maybe I should set aside some time to actually do some reading for once in my life...
What about non-fanfic stuff? As the Constitution says, "Don’t worry about your interests being too eclectic for anyone else to be interested in — history has proven time and again that there probably is someone who shares your interests." Can you think of any piece of fiction that you've found funny recently, that someone here might have heard of?
hS
I used to laugh a whole lot at immature, idiotic crap, but I actively despise that kind of thing now, so...
Only very small things that literally are isolated incidents throughout multiple things, nothing really notable in all actuality...
So is this whole conversation basically "I'm blind; explain blue to me", or is there some nuance I'm missing?
hS
I used to laugh a lot more, but not at things I should have... Then again, didn't we all when we were that age?
...what's your stance on Monty Python? They've got a couple of really good sketches that have the sort of random/nonsensical humour we're talking about.
Let's see if any of these will elicit a chuckle or something...
The Dirty Hungarian phrasebook sketch
The Spam sketch
Biggus Dickus
And a song to cap it off.
And deceptively simple to answer. I think "quirky/zany/silliness" is a good definition of PPC insanity, but it takes a lot of different forms, and not all agents have it to the same degree. Also, they're only "insane" relative to us here in the real world. In HQ, the quirkiness of agents is the norm; it's the saner ones who are weird.
Whatever it looks like, I think it's important because it's the thing that allows the agents to laugh and carry on in the face of surreal, illogical, and sometimes disgusting things that would otherwise wear them down, make them give up, or tip them over the edge into homicidal rage (a.k.a. "flamethrower-crazy"). If you or I saw someone with a literal "head of fire," to make up an example, we'd probably freak out and call emergency services. The average PPC agent would just break out the marshmallows.
In a more meta sense, it's important because it's a device that lets us make jokes about bad writing instead of just raging at it. Laughing is fun; being angry isn't. {= )
~Neshomeh
As I still don't exactly understand what you're getting at.
Well, the way I see it, PPC Insanity is sort of quirky zany crazyness. It's making castles out of bread, or making your entire RC a pillow fort "just because".
It's important, because that's one of the main points of the ppc. Sometimes, when The Words take something literally, it can be horrifying, but most of the time, it should be silly. Like, if a description lists everything except pants, the character won't be wearing any.
...Making them do funny things because they're funny?
Making a character do something "just because" is something I usually try to avoid as much as possible while writing, as it seems like a bit of an excuse to me when I think about it. I prefer things having a reason rather than them happening just because it would be funny if... I don't know, someone started painting the walls with ketchup, or something.
Quirky zany craziness nails it. Doesn't compare to clinical insanity.
Also...
"Like, if a description lists everything except pants, the character won't be wearing any."
Is it bad that I did that to one of my agents?