Thank you for writing and posting this. I know you weren't exactly eager to do it, but I agree with you that it needed to be said - and I think you said it well.

hS

... can be found here on T-Board. I know we already have a big pot of Serious Business going around right now, making this possibly not the best time for another serious thread, but VM wanted this put together, and so I did.

I might chime in on this thread with something relevant later.

Specifically, that it takes both sides participating equally to resolve a problem. I hope I'm not overstepping myself if I elaborate.

There's a tool we use in the UU young adult cons I attend. Basically, it boils down to this:

Person A accidentally says something that offends or hurts their friend, Person B.

1. Person B says, "Hey, that thing you said hurt me."
2. Person A says, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I meant something else."
3. Person B says, "I understand that you didn't mean it. I forgive you, but try not to say that again, okay?"
4. Person A says, "Okay, I promise."

The conflict is resolved, Persons A and B are still friends. (Optional hugs here.)

I realize this is extremely simplified, and that real life is more complicated; and this does presume that both parties are acting in good faith and desire to come to a mutually satisfactory understanding. Because assuming good faith is part of our Constitution, I think this process can be applied to us.

I've seen too many conversation breakdowns happen at step 3. Specifically, Person B does not accept Person A's apology for whatever reason, and no forgiveness is offered. This makes it impossible for the conversation to move forward. Person B still feels hurt, Person A is unable to atone for it. No one is happy, and no one can fix it. This is a bad, unfair situation.

Conflict resolution takes two. Person A must be willing to accept responsibility and apologize for what they said, Person B must be willing to accept their apology and let everyone move on. Both parties must do their part for a mutually satisfactory resolution to be possible.

That's what I believe.

~Neshomeh

I don't have a lot to add, but I do have a question. What's 'ableism'?

I'm happy that people are finally speaking out about things that have been bugging me myself for a while now, even though I'm kind of not quite here any more.

As someone who's tone is... Frequently not what people are used to here, I feel that things do need a slight adjustment for the sake of accessibility. Not everyone is used to being polite on the internet all the time, this is something I know from experience and being in communities all across the scale of formality, but yeah, technical non-person speaking.

Just thought I'd say that I personally think that the Constitution is pretty clear on the whole 'getting along with each other' thing. I think it basically boils down to (and if you feel I've misread it, please correct me):

Try not to be a dick.

If you feel you have been a dick, or someone else feels that you have, work out any differences maturely and intelligently, while keeping #1 in mind.

Everyone is welcome, and entitled to their own opinion, while keeping #1 in mind.

I'm not implying that I think the Constitution shouldn't change, just that from my perspective I'm happy with it.

I can't say anything about the IRC as I never venture there.

Whilst I've not actually seen any of the violation/skirting of the Constitution (besides the post linked) I have been in groups in the past that have torn themselves apart because of similar issues being left to grow. Whilst not saying that such a thing would happen here I feel something should be done to resolve the issues that this matter has raised.

I'm not saying that Flame's or any other types of bullying or harassment should be allowed but something needs to happen to cool things down and hopefully prevent something like this from happening again.

Allow me to reiterate what are, to me, the most salient points of what VM just said.

We have a Constitution for a reason, kids, learn it, love it, live by it. Or at least post by it. In light of recent(ish) events, I point specifically to

5. All respectful opinions that do not attack, insult, or persecute others (see Article 1) are welcome. We encourage respectful, friendly debates here. Should a debate escalate into an argument for any reason, everyone involved should step back and calm down before continuing. If this cannot be done, it may be best to abandon the conversation entirely.

6. Everyone in the PPC Community should be respected as people, regardless of who they are. The opinions of a newbie are just as valid and wanted as those of someone here for four years. Everyone deserves respect until they show themselves to be unashamedly disrespectful themselves, which means people who show disrespect and discrimination as per Article 1 do not warrant respect based on those views. However, not warranting respect does not mean they do not warrant politeness. This means you are not allowed to descend into flaming and insulting them, but instead should follow Article 9.

Also, something I've noticed is that people here seem to go from 'just fine' to 'Full Flame Mode' in a matter of 2-3 posts. This is unacceptable. This is not a community for shouting, for name-calling, for any sort of flaming whatsoever, period, the end, no exceptions. If someone posts something that offends you, you do not have carte blanche to respond in a way that offends them. Especially if it offends everyone else in the process. If you absolutely MUST speak your mind, do so via e-mail.

Finally, I hate watching my friends fight. And I do, rightly or wrongly, consider each and every one of you a friend. But what I hate worse is watching friendships break down because, in the aftermath of a fight, people stop talking to each other. There's no reconciliation, there's no discussion. Most times, people simply stop speaking, and their friendship withers. It kills me to watch that happen. So please, don't do it, for your own sake, and everyone else's. Talking helps.