Subject: Re: Citation needed. Really.
Author:
Posted on: 2009-03-25 00:43:00 UTC
Well, I don't speak for myself here, but I think some people view it as juvenile or bad writing. Writing what is essentially yourself is "too easy".
Ignoring, of course, such fine examples as Kurt Vonnegut, Hermione Granger, and Gonff the Mousethief.
Continuing the trend of whining about the "canon police", an intrepid Wikipedian has taken it upon him or herself to educate the masses about us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
"The irony implicit in the fact that the "Sueslayers", being self-insertions that dominate the story, are themselves Mary Sues, apparently escapes the awareness of these authors."
lulwhat? Also, since when have we been called "Sueslayers"?
You know, considering that a majority of agents work in pairs written by the same author, unless both are essentially the same character, about half of all agents at most could be self inserts. Or maybe I just need to go to sleep now.
The answer is...CHURROS! Oh, and Sue-Slaying.
Or else.
Dr. Wik's Old-Fashioned Peppermint Insanity?
But either way, 'tis very funny.
Shall we print T-shirts for every DMS agent? "OFFICIAL SUESLAYER!"
INSERT NAME HERE the Mary Sue Slayer! :p
Use the definition of Mary Sue on the Wiki:
Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, or having too many, [Araeph's note: having too many flaws makes you a Sue? Wha...?] and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers.
Now, substitute "Sue" for any PPC agent ever written.
Agent Jay Thorntree, sometimes shortened simply to Jay, is:
- a fictional character who plays a major role in the [canon] plot
- is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms
- lacks noteworthy flaws, or has too many
- primarily functions as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for her authors or readers.
*snerk*
Well, I suppose she and Acy fulfilled our wish of killing Sues...
For those of you who are interested, I've posted a brand-new PPC Mary Sue definition on the Wiki. I think it's better than Wikipedia's, anyway. (Not that that's a difficult feat to top.)
What I always considered the defining trait of the Mary Sue is that they're always in the spotlight, and I just don't see that with PPC agents. When they're in HQ, it's essentially original fiction, and when they're in a fic, it's a Rosencranz and Guildenstern style "the spotlight's somewhere else" situation.
Mostly because it's obviously incorrect to anyone who actually reads it. Probably a Suethor making a potshot.
Oh, that's a trend in the Redwall fandom. Authors will create their own Sues and send in Redwall versions of themselves to kill them. These Redwall alter egos are known as Sueslayers. Lycaenion has an in-progress Suebasher fic called 'Arawolf Beechclaw: Sueslayer Extraordinaire'.
I've noticed that, though, how our agents are often self inserts, but I think the difference is that self-insert sues are often overly new-and-improved versions of the author, or what the author imagines him/herself to be or wishes he/she could be. Also, the self-insert usually has the purpose to either seduce a canon character, bash a canon character, or place oneself in something that happened in the canon and have the self-insert influence it in some way (i.e. bashing/seducing canon characters).
Alter egos, fursonas, and suchlike that WE use, on the other hand, usually have no intention of doing any such thing, and are used for a comedic effect to get rid of Sues, bad slash, etc.
I actually don't understand what's wrong with the idea of an author inserting him/herself into a story, though. Kurt Vonnegut did it, and nobody complains about that. What exactly is it we hate so much about self-inserts, besides what I listed above?
All our agents are self-inserts of some form. What we hate is the extreme, over-perfect version that is unfortunately so common that people start mistaking It for the definition of "self-insert", which it is not.
Agreed. Nearly all authors put some aspects of themselves into their characters, even unintentionally.
Well, I don't speak for myself here, but I think some people view it as juvenile or bad writing. Writing what is essentially yourself is "too easy".
Ignoring, of course, such fine examples as Kurt Vonnegut, Hermione Granger, and Gonff the Mousethief.
That Vonnegut's Author Avatar was meant to convey the story's message, that said Avatar didn't have everything go his way (and was nearly gutted by a deleted character), and that the other characters reacted realistically to him. Mary Suethor usually can't quite pull that off.