Actually, the way I see it...

Subject: Actually, the way I see it...
Author: World-Jumper
Posted on: 2014-04-03 20:24:00 UTC

Most fourth wall breakers can see agents. However, this does not mean they know what's going on. Take, for example, Pinkie Pie. She has minor fourth wall breaking abilities (despite what the fandom will tell you) though she has definitely interacted with the wall before. A few aside glances, massing with the scenery, talking to the audience once or twice, you get the idea. She would be able to see through the SEP field, but not necessarily know who the agents are. To me, this is part of why the agents have to have disguises. They have to hide from those who can see them, beyond uncanon characters. Besides, even if she sees everything, learns what Mary Sues are, and has receved all of the knowledge of the multiverse because ~~Marvin~~ an agent screwed up royally, all the agents have to do is show Pinkie the shiny party favor with the flashy light at the top.

But, that's just me. Obviously, if people insist that fourth wall breakers cannot know about the PPC at all, or be able to see agents at all, then that's fine. That's just my idea.

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Should the Fellowship be aware of the PPC? by Seychelles on 2014-04-03 02:27:00 UTC Reply

It's just a thought that's been bugging me for awhile now. By far the fandom that has been PPC'd the most is LOTR. Plus the most common targets of the badfic writers are usally members.
Maybe they might have just a little bit of sense of it, like deja vu. Thoughts?

How does that happen, anyway? by NotHimAgain on 2014-04-03 20:07:00 UTC Reply

I've been thinking about this. Sure, some characters are omnipotent, and others are aware of the fourth wall (did they ever decide whether or not Pinkie Pie knows?), but how did Gaspode find out in the first place? Was he just there? And once the PPC knew about that, why didn't they decide to neuralize him? I had an idea for an agent getting in trouble for revealing the existence of the PPC to some ^Lyrical Nanoha^ characters, but I've been driving myself crazy trying to figure out why they wouldn't be able to neuralize them in that situation. I was thinking that it would be a one-off gag anyways.

Re: How does that happen, anyway? by Miah on 2014-04-03 22:19:00 UTC Reply

I find it fun (or well, not fun for the characters, but interesting to us) when the characters have a brief spell of being in-character after exorcism while the agents are wrapping up the details. I think it can give a little chance to show what the characters would think of the fic if they were in-character.

This could be done with any character that a PPCer wanted to show the canon character's reaction to the PPC (assuming they weren't too traumatized by the fic to think about anything other than the fic), and still neuralize them at the end.

Indemaat's mission that had Murdock learning about the PPC was a good example of this, with Hannibal and Murdock becoming more in-character and helping the agents after they were taken out of the main Suefluence. Deception: Alex's Past It's a three-parter, so the relevant bits are further into the mission.

What do you mean "be aware of"? by Outhra on 2014-04-03 03:43:00 UTC Reply

There are a number of different calibers of "awareness", and most of them would actually be counter-productive to what the PPC tries to do. We protect the plot without forcing ourselves on it, in part because letting the canon characters know of the existence of the multiverse would alter the path of their story and in part because projecting oneself onto a world that was doing fine without you is what the Mary Sues do, and we don't want any part of that. That's why we neuralyze people, and why it's frowned upon for the PPC writers to introduce new characters with knowledge of the multiverse unless there's a good in-universe reason, i.e. the character in question is omniscient and would know about it anyway. It's not good for main characters to start expecting and recognizing PPC agents, or it runs the risk of Sueishness. It's one thing to team up temporarily with a canon character to drive off an intruding presence, and another entirely to start striking up friendships with people from other universes when said other people have their own narratives to attend to.

The "deja vu" idea is close to one of the passable types of awareness, where a few characters, such as BBC Sherlock, will gain limited knowledge after they have been fully replaced, restricted to the basics like knowing they've been separated from their world and shoved in a plothole before, and that someone fixed the problem when they experienced it last time. They do not gain full knowledge of the PPC(though Sherlock occasionally manages to deuce the scope of what it is and what is going on while he's still in the plothole) in part because the canon snapback will return them to their previous states and in part because they're neuralyzed to forget any information from accumulating. However, none of the Fellowship apply for that state. It would take a particular mindset, the sort of mind that can prodigiously analyze patterns and simultaneously allow for the most wild of possibilities to be accepted as potential reality, to apply for that state. Hence, BBC Sherlock.

Some of the Lord of the Rings characters have other states of awareness, with Gimli having a sort of OOC avoidance since the badfic writers tend to ignore him, and Elrond having an active OOC resistance thanks to his ring's protective magic(by that logic, Gandalf and Galdriel would have it as well, since they have the other rings in Elrond's set, but I don't think that's ever been addressed), but neither of those types give the user knowledge of the PPC. They just leave them aware that something strange is going on, and the characters begin to want no part in it despite being forced along in the wake of whatever is corrupting the canon.

It was just a thought by Seychelles on 2014-04-03 03:56:00 UTC Reply

I thought it might be kind of heartwarming if a member of one of the PPC's most protected fandoms, just said thank you. If you don't like the idea that is fine.

Well, that's a different thing. by Outhra on 2014-04-03 04:09:00 UTC Reply

Before the canon snaps back and before they're neuralyzed, any character affected by the badfic would still remember it. They, especially the main focus of a badfic's intentions, would be especially aware of what they have just done and why their uncharacteristic behavior ended in those few moments(especially if they were around to watch the Sue-killing and thus can more easily connect the Sue's death to the fading of their OOC), and I can easily see one of the Fellowship expressing gratitude toward the PPC Agents who freed them from their slavish devotion to a malevolent interloper before they shift back to their canonical selves and the Agents have to make them forget all about their uncanon experiences.

I thought you were talking about just in general, having one of the Fellowship know about the PPC all the time. That wouldn't have been the best idea.

Gaspode & Murdock by Calista on 2014-04-03 13:56:00 UTC Reply

Both characters know about the PPC... one is a minor character and a dog, the other is just crazy enough to be ignored and just sane enough to know it's not smart to go talking about the PPC. Either way, their knowledge doesn't affect their continuum.

Which is why they can keep their knowledge at all.

A mission involves removing the uncanon so that the world can reassert itself. When it does, the badfic--and the mission--literally never happened for anyone except the agents.

To remember the PPC agents would require characters to remember things that, from their world's perspective, never happened at all--an alternate, parasitic timeline. And they only do that when remembering such things doesn't affect their continuum.

Remembering the PPC is in character for Murdock; Gaspode knows lots of things that he shouldn't, and is ignored because nobody expects a talking dog.

Sherlock figures it out anew every time, because he's just that good.

Characters who expect there to be parallel universes, or who are even aware that they are fictional characters, would be especially likely to put two and two together. Most of them would lose that knowledge when their continuum snapped back.

But to actually maintain knowledge of the PPC would require that these characters could, in-character, know about an alternate timeline involving creatures from outside their world invading and being removed by a secret extradimensional organization.

Deadpool? by Miah on 2014-04-03 17:44:00 UTC Reply

He knows he's a fictional character. He breaks the 4th wall constantly, he travels to other timelines and dimensions, he's crazy, and no one would believe him if he did talk about it.

Of course, I wouldn't want any of my agents anywhere near Deadpool. The guy is just too dangerous. And a Deadpool that knew about the PPC is a Deadpool that would probably try to find a way in to see how much 'fun' and profit could be had.

I like that some characters retain no knowledge, but figure it out every time. That's a very good way to think about it.

Yeah, he'll probably find out eventually. by Calista on 2014-04-03 19:42:00 UTC Reply

And it will be trouble.

But let's try to postpone that as long as possible! Agents should tread very carefully around Deadpool and any other fourth-wall breakers.

At least the SEP field works with mind-readers and reality-benders, or every one of them would know about the PPC too.

Come to think of it... by Calista on 2014-04-03 19:47:00 UTC Reply

the SEP field might hide agents from Deadpool simply by making them blend into all the other crazy stuff he's aware of. With that kind of awareness, the PPC is probably far from the most extreme thing he's ever experienced.

If he wanted to mess with other dimensions, he could. There are many other things he could get into, if he wanted to. It seems to me that he's staying in his own world more because he prefers it there, than because he can't get out until the PPC accidentally throws him a portal. In a superhero 'verse, there's plenty of reality-bending out there; if he wanted to leave, he would have.

Actually, the way I see it... by World-Jumper on 2014-04-03 20:24:00 UTC Reply

Most fourth wall breakers can see agents. However, this does not mean they know what's going on. Take, for example, Pinkie Pie. She has minor fourth wall breaking abilities (despite what the fandom will tell you) though she has definitely interacted with the wall before. A few aside glances, massing with the scenery, talking to the audience once or twice, you get the idea. She would be able to see through the SEP field, but not necessarily know who the agents are. To me, this is part of why the agents have to have disguises. They have to hide from those who can see them, beyond uncanon characters. Besides, even if she sees everything, learns what Mary Sues are, and has receved all of the knowledge of the multiverse because ~~Marvin~~ an agent screwed up royally, all the agents have to do is show Pinkie the shiny party favor with the flashy light at the top.

But, that's just me. Obviously, if people insist that fourth wall breakers cannot know about the PPC at all, or be able to see agents at all, then that's fine. That's just my idea.

If that's the case... by Snowy the Sane Fangirl on 2014-04-04 03:40:00 UTC Reply

Then Hamlet must be very aware of agents. Actually, come to think of it, are there even missions for Shakespeare's works? Is there even fanfic for Shakespeare's works?

Actually, no don't tell me. Tempting the Ironic Overpower there. I remember when I found out Bible fanfic was a thing. Ugh.

In response to the other response by Calista (cool-sounding name, by the way):
So basically what an SEP field does is makes the agents (or whatever it's protecting) the observer's absolute lowest priority? Like negative priority or something? I haven't quite wrapped my head around the SEP field yet. But what you seem to be saying is that the effect of the SEP field is that even if an agent is noticed, they still don't matter. Am I understanding this? And does the SEP have an effect on non-canons too, or just canons?

Negative priority... good way of putting it. by Calista on 2014-04-04 20:06:00 UTC Reply

Anything else in the world is more relevant, anything else is more interesting. Like, when you're going shopping, do you notice a scuff mark on the grocery store floor? Probably not, because the store janitor's the one who needs to notice that, and you'd be silly to concern yourself with it. And if you do notice it, you might go, "Hmm, they need to clean here," and immediately forget it. It's like that, only stronger because the effect is Sufficiently Advanced Technology rather than your own brain judging something to be someone else's problem.

Hamlet... whoa. I hadn't thought of that. I wonder. The play's been performed in so many ways, from audio drama to live performance to movie adaptation. He does talk directly to the audience in some versions, but it can definitely be interpreted in ways that don't involve his being actually aware of the audience--like, he's just using it as a metaphor during his soliloquy; or else he's just self-centered enough to see himself as the center of the world's story. Plus, he's in the same "faking crazy but perhaps really crazy" category as Murdock, isn't he? But he's not nearly as nice a person to work with as Murdock is...

I guess it's up to the first person to write a mission there, and let's go with whatever makes the best story!

Is there Shakespeare fanfic? Yes. It ranges from bad high-school writing assignments to geeky fangirling from English majors, and the quality tends to be better than average, considering that anyone who writes Shakespeare fanfic has generally read Shakespeare.
The SEP field affects more or less everybody. by Outhra on 2014-04-04 05:01:00 UTC Reply

It's external technology, from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy continuum, and operates by manipulating the subconscious thoughts of those looking at whatever is covered in the field, making any observed see whatever unusual object may be underneath it as Somebody Else's Problem. Even if they do see the agents, which may be less than likely because anyone from outside canon is shielded from the sight of every canon character by a passive effect that the continuum projects on its inhabitants, whoever sees them will just believe that the presence of two new faces in the crowd is nothing they should bother themselves about, and they'll quickly forget there was anything unusual at all.

So, more or less what you already thought. Whatever is under the field doesn't matter, even if some OC decides to look over and see what all of the shouting and bashing of heads against the nearby walls is all about. PPC Agents tend to make a scene when confronted with the atrocities of badfic. It's part of why the SEP Fields started being used in the first place.

Normal operation exceptions by Miah on 2014-04-04 09:36:00 UTC Reply

Sues can see the agents though, because the agents ARE their problems. Also, the SEP fields work well, but if the agents act oddly and loudly enough, it can overide the SEP protection.

If a canon gets OOC enough to be nearing character replacement (the replacements are Sues and can see through it), the SEP works less well, which is why DBS and others that routinely deal with possible replacements often still wear a disguise in case it breaks down unexpectedly in a scene.

The SEP fields are probably the single most stable piece of PPC tech. I hadn't really thought in those terms until just now, but I can't think of anything less than a direct hit by a knife that has taken one out of normal operation.

SEP fields function as they do in their home continuum. (nm) by Calista on 2014-04-04 19:54:00 UTC Reply

Let's go with "it depends" by Calista on 2014-04-03 22:44:00 UTC Reply

Depends on the character, that is. Depends on their abilities, their personalities, and their worlds.

I could buy Pinkie Pie being able to see the agents, but completely ignoring their presence because there's something shiny over there. The SEP field would, after all, make the agents very non-shiny, and even if Pinkie's attention ricochets all over the place and occasionally lands on the agents, they're just not interesting enough for her to notice them for long.

The SEP field makes the agents into irrelevant parts of the scenery. You could say it's a targeted induction of inattentional blindness.

The SEP field would be something that's most easily penetrated by someone who notices everything and considers nothing irrelevant. For example: A savant with a photographic memory, or a robot which records its surroundings in detail. But even these characters have to determine which things are relevant enough to be acted on, and which things are not. The SEP field puts the agents into the "not relevant enough to be acted on" category.

To actually be immune to an SEP field, a character would have to:
1. Process ALL the information coming in from their environment; nothing can be declared irrelevant (otherwise the agents are "irrelevant" and not noticed).
2. Be able to think quickly enough to process all the information in such detail (otherwise the character will only consciously notice the agents later on when it reviews the stored "footage".)
3. Be able to act quickly enough to act on all the information in their environment (otherwise the character has to choose which information is relevant enough to be acted on, and the SEP field helps them declare the agents as irrelevant.)

There are some OOC-resistant canons. by Calista on 2014-04-03 03:19:00 UTC Reply

Namely, Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. All three are highly intelligent, perceptive, very old, and wear rings of power.

They still go OOC--especially Elrond--but they fight against it. I would expect them to occasionally have the presence of mind to actively help the agents once they realize what is going on, because they are more resistant than the average canon, and catch on to things more quickly than the average person. They are all resistant to corruption and, more importantly, wise enough to know they are not immune.

Eru Ilúvatar, like all omniscient deities, is OOC-immune and knows about the PPC. He's probably the only one in Middle-earth who is always aware of the PPC's actions. Other canons, even very powerful ones, probably only get vague hunches that those frazzled people in the weird black uniforms are trustworthy. Perhaps PPC agents look foul and feel fair? :P

So Galadriel and Gandalf do have confirmed OOC resistance? by Outhra on 2014-04-03 03:46:00 UTC Reply

I thought so, but I hadn't been sure.

Can you remember if that was stated in a PPC story anywhere? That information sounds like something that would be good to link to on their wiki pages, if such a link exists.

They should. by Calista on 2014-04-03 14:02:00 UTC Reply

Elrond's resistance comes from his Ring. They don't have any advantages he doesn't. It's just that they haven't been attacked nearly as much as he has. Gandalf often gets turned into a stupid old man, and Galadriel gets overlooked entirely.

By the way, an alternate-universe Boromir has joined the PPC as part of Team Phoenix, which is an experimental interdepartmental squad that comes from recruiting Sean Bean characters after their deaths (i.e., after their canons are done with them). They are copies, not the originals (the originals are still in their continua) but for all practical purposes, they keep their personalities, memories, etc.

So I suppose Boromir knows about the PPC, in a way. And the LotR continuum has given the PPC a competent agent in exchange for all the de-Sueing we've had to do.

Exuse me, bad grammer by Anonymous on 2014-04-03 02:29:00 UTC Reply

Maybe they might have a weird feeling about it, like deja vu