Hmm...

Subject: Hmm...
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2014-02-21 19:55:00 UTC

It would definitely solve the problem of writing samples that don't tell us anything useful.

- I don't think describing a personality is that hard (and the backstory should inform and support the personality), but it is better to see how the characters behave in an actual scene, so that's a benefit, too.

- We already have to assume that we're not being deliberately deceived (and I can't think of a time that's ever happened), so that's no different.

... So, yeah, I like it. The question for me is just how to generate good prompts, since getting something you can't work with for whatever reason might be an issue. Maybe there could be one prompt that's always the same (the agents' first meeting, maybe?), and the other one is random? That introduces a control for the "I hate this prompt" factor, and writing a scenario that's been written many times is a pretty good test of how good you are at establishing your own voice, being creative, bringing the humor, and, crucially, writing characters who can carry a scene.

~Neshomeh

Jump to this post's position in the thread ↴

Permission request. by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 01:11:00 UTC Reply

Permission request:
Lilly Padfoot: A native of fanfiction.net, she used to have the rather difficult job of sorting all the Harry Potter fanfiction on the site into the various categories. She fled into a portal when the bots that periodically wipe clean entire sections of the site came too close to where she was living for comfort, and ended up in the PPC HQ. In transit, her body got stuck in a solid light type form (think Star Trek holodeck characters). Her skin is light blue, and she’s completely bald. She’s forever stuck in a white button down and khaki pants (don’t ask), and her eyes... lets just say they didn’t exactly come through quite correctly. They don’t actually, you know, stick to her face. So, she usually carries them around with her. She showed up with the flashpatch of the Department of Angst on her shirt (she has no idea why), thus forcing the Aloe Vera out of retirement, much to the Flower’s annoyance.
As she grew up in the internet, whenever she goes into canons she collects things. Like rocks, and pinecones. And she has a tendency to obsess over tall buildings (they didn’t have those in ff.net apparently). Oh, and she can’t actually you know, use doorknobs. Her hands kind of go through them. And she flickers madly in the presence of Flowers.
Was paired with Annie Nascosto in an attempt to temper the other girl’s... darker habits. She’s sort of succeeded.

Annie Nascosto: An mpreg baby, born when someone had the brilliant idea of making Jim Moriarty pregnant with Mycroft Holmes’ baby. Tall and thin, she was originally a Floater before being assigned to the Department of Angst when the Aloe Vera was forced out of retirement by the appearance of Lilly Padfoot. Hates, hates unnecessary angst. Collects ‘trophies’. Meaning hair clippings of slain Sues. Don’t angst. Just... don’t. Bright red hair and green eyes, she has her “fathers’” intelligence, and a bit of a cruel streak.
We’re not quite sure who raised her, because she just... appeared one day and started working extremely long hours, driving away all her partners with her relentless creepiness until she was assigned Lilly, who finds her fascinating.
Is especially harsh on Sherlock sues, because she developed an affection for the entire continuity despite her... less than savory origins in it.
More of a “shoot first, ask questions later” type of person, she frequently gets into arguments with Lilly over how to deal with Sues.

First sporking will be: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5902133/1/Life-of-Cristancia
I have already claimed it over at the wikia. May be a while before I put it up. RL currently has thrown quite a few research papers at me.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1033590/chapters/2060000
Freak, by LightDarkPheonix.

Right. A decision. by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 16:53:00 UTC Reply

In conjunction with Neshomeh, no less.

Your second writing sample has certainly overcome my doubts about darkness, and to some extent the randomness - you do present the attributes you've described in the bios as integral parts of the characters. So, I'm going to say Permission Granted, with the following caveats/provisos/comments:

-Since I'm still a bit divided, if another PG has a vehement objection, we'll discuss it here.

-Make sure to get a beta, in particular for your punctuation. It's not overly common, but you do have a smattering of missing hyphens and question marks. The best way to find a beta for a PPC mission is simply to ask on this Board or in the IRC, mentioning which continuum and department it's in. You can discuss with any beta(s) you get as to whether they're okay with you emailing them directly in future.

-Be sure you're aware of the MO and purpose of the Department of Angst. Go back and read their extant missions. As summarised by Neshomeh, they try to eliminate angst with things like Prozac and balloon animals. Annie seems more inclined to try and kill angsters. We've discussed the idea of a team where one person goes the Prozac route, while the other glares at you and growls, 'Don't angst, or else', and we think it could work - but two agents who both try to kill the people they're supposed to be helping would not work. Or, in other words: make sure you write Lilly as a balance to Annie on missions, as well as in HQ.

Other than that... go for it, and have fun!

hS

Like a Good Cop/Bad Cop thing? (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-02-21 17:34:00 UTC Reply

Probably, yeah (nm) by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 18:37:00 UTC Reply

Right, I should probably clarify by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 17:25:00 UTC Reply

They are in the Department of Angst.
Small problem. My explanation for why there isn't much on the DOA on the wikia (and few missions) is that the Aloe Vera purposefully went into retirement, and was very annoyed when she had two agents assigned to her. So she occasionally assigns them not angst stories (for example the one I've claimed for my first mission) out of pique.
Annie doesn't want to kill angst overloaded characters (Lilly dragging her away was because in my head overloaded angst Smaug would try to set Annie on fire, I'm going to go under the assumption that too much angst comes often times not only from way too much depression, to be counteracted with prozac, but also a form of possession.
I will ask for a beta after I've written things, I'm really glad I'm finally in a situation where I can ask for a beta without feeling like I'm screaming at an empty sky.
Lilly is the sane (ish) one here. Isn't that how it usually works, there's the anchor and the loose cannon?

A concern. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 17:44:00 UTC Reply

I strongly object to altering one of the few departments that actually has a unique methodology to it, so when you say you're operating under the assumption that angst is often caused by possession, i.e. would require an exorcism rather than cheering up, that worries me. Add in the fact that you've invented an excuse for your agents to get Suefics, too, that worries me a lot. I don't want to see the DOA turn into a little clone of Floaters, so please be very, very judicious in how you proceed.

~Neshomeh

right. sorry. by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 17:50:00 UTC Reply

The methodology of the DOA will be unchanged. And they will deal with exactly one suefic before they do angst entirely. I'm sorry.

Okay. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 18:23:00 UTC Reply

... It looks like I scared the capital letters right out of your subject line. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be that intimidating.

I also didn't mean to suggest that the DOA can never ever deal with Sues or bad slash or crossovers, etc. They're hardly mutually exclusive with angst, after all! That being the case, though, you don't need to invent reasons to work them in, which is why it seemed like you were intending to ditch the original concept in favor of doing what everyone else does. Basically, what I'm saying is that the angst should always be the main problem of the fic and the go-to solution should always be cheering up. The other stuff should be secondary, if present at all.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to do Sue-slayings and exorcisms, either! Just, if you find you'd rather do that stuff than DOA stuff, just have the agents transfer, 'kay?

~Neshomeh

Are there really that many fics where a cheer-up will fix ev by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 00:58:00 UTC Reply

-erything, though? Seems to me like most badfics will still have other issues to deal with, unless it's a sort of "once the canon is out of its rut they'll deal with the rest" thing, but we aren't exactly in the business of letting canons do our work for us.

They exist. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-22 01:26:00 UTC Reply

You know those fics where it's just one character's train of thought the whole time, and it's really melodramatic and annoying and possibly involves touchy subjects like depression, drug abuse, cutting, suicide, etc.? It's a thing.

Also, searching just the Harry Potter book category of ff.net with the filters "Genre A: Angst," "Genre B: Angst," "Language: English," and "Rating: All" turns up a whopping seventy-nine thousand four hundred (79.4K) stories. There's bound to be some mission fodder in all that, and it's just one fandom on one website.

~Neshomeh

There's also 4.5K Star Wars angstfics, re: other fandoms (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 01:30:00 UTC Reply
Well I am wrong, then! by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 01:27:00 UTC Reply

It seems to me there's the risk of every mission kind of playing out the same, but that's something good writing can deal with.

On RCs by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 18:44:00 UTC Reply

Now that I've gotten permission, how am I assigned the RC? Do I choose the number, or am I given it?

You choose. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 19:22:00 UTC Reply

Just make sure it's not already claimed first: http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/ListofRCs

~Neshomeh

Thanks :) Second question by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 19:39:00 UTC Reply

Do I write the wikia page for them myself? I'm not very good at that...

Generally, yes, but not necessarily. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 20:12:00 UTC Reply

If it's the editing process that worries you, there are resources to help you out, most of which are linked from here on the main page and from the blue navbar at the top. For this specific situation, I wrote a guide called "How to Make a Character Page." {= )

Also, if it helps, you can't really screw up that badly. The worst thing that happens with any frequency is someone (probably me) asking you to do something differently in an annoyed tone; but usually what happens is that someone will just come in after you and fix stuff.

BUT, if you really would rather not, you can ask an editor to help you out. I'll volunteer for now, since I'm here (and I'm also the pickiest). I'll just need all the information to put on the page, for which see above-linked how-to article.

~Neshomeh

I'll give you the info as soon as time allows. by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 20:14:00 UTC Reply

Meaning within the next two days.

In that case... by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 20:23:00 UTC Reply

It's probably best if you e-mail it to me. My address is neshomeh [dot] soul [at] gmail [dot] com, with the obvious substitutions.

~Neshomeh

I'm easily scared, don't feel bad. by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 18:26:00 UTC Reply

I desperately want to do DOA, because I love the concept and I feel like its an under appreciated department.
The problem I've been coming across is that there are very few pure angst badfics. So if I am to do one, not only would my agents be making balloon animals and giving characters prozac, they'd probably have to exorcize a few people along the way.

I... am dubious. [No decision; second PG opinion, please] by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 14:45:00 UTC Reply

I'm getting a very strong 'dark' vibe from your work here. You describe Annie with this phrase: 'Hates, hates unnecessary angst. Collects ‘trophies’. Meaning hair clippings of slain Sues. Don’t angst. Just... don’t.' You mention things like 'a bit of a cruel streak', and 'relentless creepiness'.

Your writing sample continues this theme - the sheer number of warnings on it is quite terrifying. And, obviously, there's nothing wrong with liking dark stories. It just... isn't what the PPC is about.

My second concern is the amount of implied 'randomly's in your agents' descriptions. Lilly randomly ends up in HQ, randomly stuck as a hologram, randomly has her eyes fall out, randomly has a DA flashpatch, randomly actually decides to join said department... her whole character seems to consist of 'a thing, for no reason'.

Annie has some of the same. 'We’re not quite sure who raised her, because she just... appeared one day and started working extremely long hours'. I get that you're probably trying to keep it secret for a Big Reveal, but at the moment it's just... out of nowhere.

But (and it's a big but) I'm not sure to what extent those things matter. Your SPG are certainly fine, and you have some good ideas in there. So... hrm.

Okay, here's what I'm going to do. In addition to asking another PG to take a look, I have a request:

Write a story, 200-500 words, in which your agents... let's see... encounter a robot in HQ wearing a paper mask of BBC Sherlock's face. This should take place some time after they've been partnered - in other words, it's not a 'oh hi I'm so-and-so' story, it's a showcase of how you'll write them working together.

(Said story need not be taken as part of your agents' canon, but can be if you like)

This is just a request - you don't have to do it, and I'm not guaranteeing you'll get Permission if you do (obviously) - but I think it would help us get a better idea of who they are and how you'll write them.

hS

An apology, the story will come as soon as I write it. by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 15:10:00 UTC Reply

So, I'm sorry about the dark vibe you've been getting. I may have described Annie rather darkly because I'm going off the idea given by a friend (likes small spaces and scaring people) and I was trying to see what would happen if you were the uncanon child of Moriarty and Mycroft Holmes.
I can write happy fics, I just don't have many up because I wrote them all when I was younger and they are pretty awful.
The warnings are for the first few chapters, and it devolves (or turns into, depending on perspective) a rather goofy Doctor Who crossover by the end of it.
I apologize for the "thing for no reason" aspect of my characters, I have a three page long character history (I was bored) written down somewhere, but from what I saw brief character summaries are preferred.
I'm fine with not getting permission, and your reasons are valid. I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable with the things you've written.
I've just been freaked out at so much about not warning that I go a bit overboard.
Hope I haven't alienated myself completely,
LDP

To clarify: by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 15:21:00 UTC Reply

I wasn't particularly creeped out - I didn't even read much of the story, since I had other concerns which overrode it, aren't all that interested in the fandom, and was about to ask for another sample anyway. ;)

As to whether brief summaries are preferred - it's a bit of a Catch-22. If you say too much, people will complain - but if you don't say enough, people will complain! I occasionally consider ways of tackling this, but a) we don't like change, and b) it's not like Permission Requests are so frequent that we need a streamlined method. Case-by-case works fine.

Looking forward to the new sample.

hS

One thing we could do... by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 15:31:00 UTC Reply

Is not emphasize BRIEF, since it does tend to get translated as "sketchy" more often than not. Maybe a more specific suggestion like "about 200-400 words each and touching on appearance, backstory, and personality" would help?

I'll take a look at the original request now.

~Neshomeh

My (rather drastic) thought... by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 15:47:00 UTC Reply

... is to scrap profiles altogether.

Well, maybe not - but to shift focus. I'm pondering a 'random prompt generator' which will do what I've just done for LDP - give you a situation to put your agents in. Then a Permission Request would consist (perhaps solely) of two stories (200-500 words) based on two separate, random prompts.

The idea came about when we had a rash of people being told off for giving lists of appearance and attributes, but no personality. Since it is sharding hard to describe a personality in a bio - at least for me - I figured a constrained version of the writing sample could work pretty well.

It would also do away with 'here's my writing sample, it's a haiku I wrote twenty years ago - hope that's okay!!'. And it would confirm that people actually want to, you know, write stories with these characters.

That said, it would rather reduce the backstory aspect of the request, or more importantly, the 'random abilities and attributes' part. Two very nice stories might just not mention the fact that the agent in question likes to paint herself in Sue blood and dance on their corpses, and that her hand turns into a lightsaber. So it may be that we ask for the following:

-Two stories from random prompts, showcasing your agents.
-Brief bios telling us their backstories, appearances, and anything we really should know.
-The badfic.

There's a certain amount of Assume Good Faith involved - but we should be anyway. And if someone decides not to tell us about the fact that their agent occasionally explodes nuclear weapons in the cafeteria, we can always concrit it out of existence when the mission comes out.

So, since I've apparently gone into this when I didn't mean to... thoughts?

hS

Hmm... by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 19:55:00 UTC Reply
- It would definitely solve the problem of writing samples that don't tell us anything useful.
  
  - I don't think describing a personality is that hard (and the backstory should inform and support the personality), but it is better to see how the characters behave in an actual scene, so that's a benefit, too.
  
  - We already have to assume that we're not being deliberately deceived (and I can't think of a time that's ever happened), so that's no different.
  
  ... So, yeah, I like it. The question for me is just how to generate good prompts, since getting something you can't work with for whatever reason might be an issue. Maybe there could be one prompt that's always the same (the agents' first meeting, maybe?), and the other one is random? That introduces a control for the "I hate this prompt" factor, and writing a scenario that's been written many times is a pretty good test of how good you are at establishing your own voice, being creative, bringing the humor, and, crucially, writing characters who can carry a scene.
  
  ~Neshomeh

Kaitlyn suggested... by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 20:57:00 UTC Reply

... the Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations as a possible basis. 36 just happens to be the number of combinations you get from rolling two standard dice, so it's a very simple table-lookup. O'course, that would require the creation of 36 prompts linked to the 36DS, so maybe not.

I'm not sure I like the idea of forcing people to do the meetup, though... what if they want to write characters who've been working together for years? Besides, a lot of them degenerate into 'Hi, I'm Agent Agent, I am three foot six and have the following quirks!' But I think you're right that we need a control...

How about 'your agents receive a mission'? It's something we all have to write a lot, and can be done as many ways as there are agents. With that and a random one, I think we'd have a good view on the characters.

(Also: I agree that other people can describe personalities, don't get me wrong. But I can't. ;))

hS

When would these proposed changes go into effect? by Outhra on 2014-02-22 00:01:00 UTC Reply

Because if you do decide to enact some permanent changes to the system, we might need some warning before the change takes place, to accommodate for people(like myself) who have been working on Permission pieces in the old method but hadn't submitted them yet for whatever reason. I saw a few prompts that I might like to write for in those thirty-six, but if the prompts are going to be selected by the Permission Givers, people wouldn't want to give up potential story ideas without being given a time window in which they would still be valid for Permission consideration.

Also, how would the new format operate? Would someone just start a thread, say "I'd like Permission, please", and then a Permission Giver would come in and say "Okay, I want you to write about [prompt from this list].", and then the Boarder would, and then the Permission Giver would give a second prompt if the writing for the first one was satisfactory? Or perhaps the first step would occur, and both prompts would be submitted simultaneously? Because if that's the case, the problem of threads being introduced with little information would become even worse, since there's no gateway any more. People who might not be ready yet would request Permission, the Permission Givers would have to be involved, possibly multiple times, to present them with an original idea to expand upon, and it would be a much longer and more convoluted process that accomplishes the same results as the existing method and reveals approximately the same data when performed correctly.

I dunno about grandfathering in. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-22 16:24:00 UTC Reply

I suspect that if you've been working on a writing sample for months and still don't like it enough to post, getting it grandfathered in isn't going to help. Plus, I'd rather see something relatively fresh than something that's been rewritten a zillion times. Nobody puts that much effort into their missions—at least not ones that ever see the light of day—so something that processed is hardly an accurate representation of how you'll really write.

Anyway, like hS said, a story conceived as a permission request can always just be a story, so there need not be any waste of ideas.

I concur with hS about how the process would work. It would be entirely applicant-driven, like how it is now. We'll just have to trust people not to fudge their dice rolls. {= )

~Neshomeh

Not so much that I've been working on it for months... by Outhra on 2014-02-22 17:01:00 UTC Reply

More like I keep coming up with entirely new concepts for the story that the piece will detail because either I get nervous and start thinking that what I already have might not be any good or liking the idea enough that I would rather expand it into a full story than keep it as a shorter Permission piece. I've gone through five concepts since I first considered asking back in May. Even the one I have now is getting longer than Permission pieces are normally supposed to be because I keep extending scenes so that things make more sense.

My thoughts. by Huinesoron on 2014-02-22 10:22:00 UTC Reply

Leaving aside the fact that a story is a story ~~no matter how small!~~ whether you use it for Permission or not... we'd probably have a 'grandfathered in' clause, where people who are already working on it can use the old-style still.

As to how it would work: on the Permission page on the Wiki, there would be a (link to a) table, 6x6. You, as a Permission Requester, would roll two dice (using a linked dice rolling website - random.org, as I recall - and select a prompt from the square they indicate. You'd also choose one from the 'Control' list at the top.

Then you'd write short stories for both of those prompts, and post them, along with your brief bios and badfic, in a Permission Request as normal. So it basically works just like the current version, only with different writing samples. :D

hS

I don't see how "worked together for years" is mutually exc- by Ekyl on 2014-02-21 23:37:00 UTC Reply

-lusive with writing a first meeting prompt. It doesn't have to be set right then and there, and like Neshomeh said, it's a nice bit of backstory that can help show what kind of grip the writer has on their characters.
Shoot, that's why I like "first meeting." by Neshomeh on 2014-02-21 21:31:00 UTC Reply

It's a good bit of backstory to know even if your agents have been together for years, and the fact that it can so easily devolve into "let us recite our bios to each other" makes it a good test—if that's all the writer can come up with, the answer should probably be "no." Plus, it doesn't necessarily have to take place in HQ, which offers great potential for variety.

But, if that doesn't win you over... receiving a mission could work, or maybe moving into the RC, which a lot of people like to write about and often ends with receiving a mission anyway. I'd hope to get some good visual descriptions out of that, and back-and-forth to the effect of "you want to put WHAT on our walls?"

Another option might be how at least one of the characters was recruited, which is not necessarily the same as how they got to HQ. Specifically, it could force people to elaborate on good old "fell through a plothole," which I'd love to see.

Any other ideas—from anyone? Any of 'em we don't make the control could still be used for random prompts. I like the 36 Situations idea, by the way (I'm a fan of rolling dice to determine randomized outcomes), but translating the Wikipedia ones into PPC terms might be tough.

~Neshomeh

Not too keen on seeing them recruited... by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 22:00:00 UTC Reply

... since that's only one character, which halves our time to see them together. Therefore, a story in which one agent tells the other how they were recruited would work - and show how they can handle dialogue.

... oh, you knew it was going to happen. A Google Doc, to try and link PPCvian versions to the 36DS. I'll add the ideas so far in an 'unassigned' list at the bottom.

With regards to the control - we may want to make it a multiple-choice. Or (shocking idea, I know) vote on it.

hS

Re. voting by Neshomeh on 2014-02-22 16:17:00 UTC Reply

I was thinking this probably should get its own thread so that everyone can have a chance to put their two cents in and/or object, so yeah. Discussion and voting is good.

I feel okay playing around in the Gdoc for a while first, though. It's always good to be able to show a complete model rather than a sketch if you're trying to sell something, yes? {= )

~Neshomeh
Out of curiosity... by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 08:59:00 UTC Reply

...Can anyone contribute to that or is the "anyone with the link can edit" intended more for PGs? Possibly a slightly dumb question but I just wondered.

(Also, I might have accidentally typed something in there because my puppy put his head on the keyboard while I was reading. I deleted it though.)

Let's go with yes, anyone can contribute. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-02-22 10:14:00 UTC Reply

Except the puppy; none of you speak dog. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 10:14:00 UTC Reply

Rrrrrrrrrr... rrf! (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-02-22 10:24:00 UTC Reply

ROWRF! (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-02-22 11:10:00 UTC Reply

(gasp) Language, you two! (nm) by Outhra on 2014-02-23 00:43:00 UTC Reply

Agreed. It's impolite to call someone a paperclip. (nm) by wobblestheclown on 2014-02-23 15:44:00 UTC Reply

Rethinking. by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 22:08:00 UTC Reply

I think the 'PPC standard' ones - the four we've already mentioned - are good options for the control. Then I think the 'prompts' should be ridiculous, like the robot-in-Sherlock-mask. This is, after all, the PPC.

hS

I feel a bit dumb for asking this... by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 15:29:00 UTC Reply

But does paper mask mean the robot looks like BBC! Sherlock?

Well, it's paper. by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 15:39:00 UTC Reply

Or cardboard. So it's a robot (looking however you like) with a circle of card tied to its head with elastic. On the card is a picture of Sherlock's face.

hS

Ah. Thank you. (nm) by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 15:41:00 UTC Reply

Another question, sorry by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 15:47:00 UTC Reply

Do I paste the writing sample directly onto the Board, or do I paste a link?

Up to you! by Huinesoron on 2014-02-21 15:48:00 UTC Reply

I think the Board word-limit is around 1000, so it should easily fit if you want to do it that way. Might even be higher than that.

hS

Re: Up to you! by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 15:52:00 UTC Reply

Um... I'm writing it and the robot has turned out to be a less than harmless misspelled version of Wall-E.

Wan-E? (the requested writing sample) by LightDarkPheonix on 2014-02-21 16:01:00 UTC Reply

Here's the link, it may have gone over the number of words you gave me by a little bit...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h4SRZEBpaYPXgr5Z0F4o9Z4gYHDpjduVOY5g6NY9Tsg/edit