Subject: You are correct. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2013-03-13 23:24:00 UTC
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Latin and the PPC by
on 2013-03-11 00:42:00 UTC
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I'll be brief. Cyba said this in another thread:
Cyba Zero
Actually, I think Latin's fairly popular around here.
Sat Mar 9, 2013 5:53am
86.130.168.86
I know a smattering, but I'd probably have to consult a dictionary and tables of endings for most of it, now, and I only ever got taught the present tense. I also remember somebody complimented me on using proper Latin endings once... Kitty Noodles, maybe?
Perhaps Latin and good writers are drawn to one another (perhaps because good writers are less likely to be afraid of Latin's copious amounts of grammar, or because being drilled in said grammar encourages good writing).
So now I'm curious, and instead of hijacking another thread, I'm asking my questions here:- How many of you have taken any Latin classes?
- Why were you interested in Latin?
- Has Latin helped you in your writing?
And most importantly
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Answering my own questions by
on 2013-03-13 23:23:00 UTC
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I believe that it is high time that I answer my own questions.
Not counting a brief stint in a Latin class in high school, I have spent one and a half years of Latin classes: I took Latin in college.
I was interested in Latin because I wanted to take Biblical languages, and I did not know at the time that Hofstra offered Greek classes (and yes, I did eventually take Greek as well).
As for how it affected my writing, I can't honestly say that it has done much. I do remember that it was in Latin class that I figured out the difference between "who" and "whom" ("who" is nominative, "whom" is oblique). However, as I mentioned in a reply to another Boarder on this thread, Latin has opened my eyes etymologically speaking: when I see a big word, I can tell when it came from Latin, and I can sometimes tell what the root word is. Now having taken Greek as well, one can only guess how often I see something that makes me think "this looks/sounds like it came from Latin/Greek"! -
Oh, teh ironies. by
on 2013-03-13 23:44:00 UTC
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when I see a big word, I can tell when it came from Latin, and I can sometimes tell what the root word is.
I pretty much said that to Neshomeh in regards to translation of foreign languages. XD
More irony: Remember when I said that I write magical incantations as a combination of French, Latin and Greek? Who'd have thunk it that two of those three - maybe even all three! - happen to be your forte? -
Re: Oh, teh ironies. by
on 2013-03-14 04:48:00 UTC
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Yep, I am pretty good with all three. Of course, I am nowhere near fluent in Latin and Greek (who actually speaks Latin or Koine Greek?), but put a dictionary by my side for the words I don't know, and I can understand almost anything I read in those languages.
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Uses of a dead language by
on 2013-03-13 21:54:00 UTC
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I had a very good Latin teacher at school, and went on to read Classics at Oxford (including compulsory Greek, yuck).
As for what I learned that's transferrable to writing English prose... Unlike modern languages, you're still taught the formal grammar and composition; I was able to use that framework to better understand English grammar and syntax. It's very important too to realise that languages change over time, and that rules that are correct in one context or register may be incorrect in another. I found the diachronic view of a thousand years and more very helpful in gaining that perspective. Finally, it was absolutely vital to realise that primers and style-guides are, at best, only providing guidelines: all the best authors regularly break the "rules", and learning how and when to do so successfully makes your writing so much more natural and flowing, and often more expressive. If you stick religiously to only the simple, straightforward constructions in your primer, you'll end up writing like a stilted primary-school teacher (or student!) regardless of the context. -
No classes for me, but-- by
on 2013-03-11 16:52:00 UTC
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I have been exposed to Latin in various ways, including choir singing, science classes (scientific terms also involve lots of Greek), and linguistics classes, not to mention looking up the etymology of words on my own. I think knowing where your language comes from is immensely helpful for writers. For me, it gives me an appreciation of the nuances of the words, and helps me choose them more carefully. It also helps in guessing the meaning of unfamiliar words when I see them for the first time.
~Neshomeh -
It's also handy for translation. by
on 2013-03-11 16:56:00 UTC
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Especially if you don't happen to speak the language of the country you find yourself in, but recognize its Latin roots.
Too bad I didn't think about this when I was in France and all my education went right out the window... -
Indeed. by
on 2013-03-11 17:03:00 UTC
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It definitely helped in my Spanish class. Yay cognates! Sadly, I only had a year of Spanish, and I never got to the point where I could hear and speak it easily. Reading and writing I could do, though, and I still remember the grammar well enough to tell when Google Translate isn't quite getting the idea.
~Neshomeh, who is occasionally forced to rely on Google Translate for her job. -
Re: Indeed. by
on 2013-03-11 17:09:00 UTC
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Same with me - I've had to do Spanish most of my life, but only have two consecutive years of French under my belt, and remember very little about either unless I'm writing it or seeing it written.
Of course, I could always fake it - and watch as my own back end gets curled around my face by the force of the kick from the angry native speakers, but hey. -
Oh, Latin... by
on 2013-03-11 12:34:00 UTC
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I studied it in high school, but only because I had to. I don't remember much of it, though, and I don't think it's helping much for my writing (aside being able to instantly recognize Gratuitous Latin and the fake one used to make up HP spells and such)
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Ah, Gratuitous Latin... by
on 2013-03-11 16:54:00 UTC
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When done correctly, it can be loads of fun.
When done poorly, it can still be loads of fun to mock incessantly.
And when done in an ominous chant, it's scary as crap. (Looking at you, Sephi-wephi-woth. Oh, I am a dead man.)
(Also, I'm going to have to make "sperry" a thing now - my phone seems to enjoy typing it.) -
True. by
on 2013-03-11 21:03:00 UTC
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Keiki Kobayashi, the composer of Ace Combat's music, is a master of this.
Ace Combat 4's "Megalith" (which is basically an arranged version of Agnus Dei, a church song!) and Ace Combat 5's "Razgriz Theme" are absolutely AWESOME. -
Somebody put Agnus Dei in a video game? by
on 2013-03-11 21:15:00 UTC
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That's one of the most somber Latin chants I've ever had to sing, how's it work in a video game?
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Well... Here's how it's arranged. by
on 2013-03-11 21:27:00 UTC
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6ABV_Q9qU
That level was EPIC. -
Requiem by
on 2013-03-12 20:08:00 UTC
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Pieces from the requiem seem rather popular with video game music composer if you ask me. Off the top of my head, I can name two pieces that use the Lacrimosa: This piece from Advent Rising and Haven's theme from Heroes of Might and Magic V.
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Ah, Sephiroth by
on 2013-03-11 18:59:00 UTC
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Ah yes, OWA. Not one of Uematsu's greatest lyrical works, that. The FF7 One Winged Angel is just snatching lines from the Carmina Burana wholesale; no consideration of case.
But the Final Fantasy series has produced at least one song with good Latin: check out Born Anew from FFXIII, whose Latin is perfect with the exception of one line. -
Okay, so that was cool. by
on 2013-03-11 21:13:00 UTC
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If I'm being honest, of course, my favorite themes from that game are mostly the regular battle theme, Snow's theme, the Eidolon battle theme, and the challenge boss theme, but that was still cool nonetheless.
(Seriously - Desperate Struggle is so catchy.) -
I know bits of Latin from church. by
on 2013-03-11 09:34:00 UTC
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Born Roman Catholic, see.
Outside of that, I just abuse translators when I need the Latin help.
As for how it helps me, I typically use it in combination with French or Greek if I can pull it off as a language of incantation for magic, when I use vocal incantations as triggers in stories.
Like:
Feignotia - Fire with prefix in French (Feu), suffix in Greek (fotia), and middle in Latin (ignis).
Or, I use Latin on its own for things like arc words.
Such as:
Quando homo fecit apparatus, homo ædificavit deus. - Arc words from a sci-fi story in production; "When man made machine, man built god."
So, you know, little things. -
Some concrit, if you don't mind... by
on 2013-03-11 19:28:00 UTC
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Unfortunately, online translators can only do so much with Latin. Latin has a case system, so it's not enough to find the translations for the nouns in your sentences; you have to decline them into the proper cases depending on their place in the sentence. As far as your arc sentence, the words "apparatus" and "deus," being objects of their verbs, should be in the accusative case:
Quando homo apparatum fecit, homo deum aedificavit.
Also, you might consider "machina" instead of "apparatus" for "machine." (i.e., Quando homo machinam fecit....) -
I thought that looked wrong... by
on 2013-03-11 21:09:00 UTC
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Glad you pointed that out, thanks a million.
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Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua! by
on 2013-03-11 06:48:00 UTC
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Hope that was correct for "the only good language is a dead language" :-) I actually took Latin for five years, but since my last lesson was about six years ago, not all that much has stuck. What did stick is enough to understand and create spells for Harry Potter, though. Makes me cringe when I see stuff like "animagus stoppero" in a fanfic. Adding "io", "ero" or other such bastardizations does NOT make it Latin! I cannot stress this enough! Rant over :-)
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You are correct. (nm) by
on 2013-03-13 23:24:00 UTC
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On Latin by
on 2013-03-11 05:41:00 UTC
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Five years of Latin in middle and high school, and I've intermittently kept up the study in the three years since. I would say that Latin has actually helped me write better, because it got me thinking outside the boundaries of English and let me better understand large words.
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Boundaries? by
on 2013-03-11 06:45:00 UTC
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Could you please clarify what you mean by saying that Latin got you thinking outside the boundaries of English?
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To answer your questions: by
on 2013-03-11 04:51:00 UTC
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- Never took any latin classes in my life
2. Only interested because of the Heros of Olympus and camp Jupiter.
3. Seeing as I never had latin, I can't say it helped my writing.
- Never took any latin classes in my life
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Re: To answer your questions: by
on 2013-03-11 04:56:00 UTC
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If your interest in the classical languages is due to the heroes of Olympus, then wouldn't you be more interested in Greek than in Latin. Then again, Greek is, in certain ways, more complex than Latin. (I can say that from experience, having taken both languages.)
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The Heroes of Olympus... by
on 2013-03-14 22:17:00 UTC
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...is the spinoff series of Percy Jackson and the Olympians, which featured Greek demigods. In the spinoff, Greek and Roman demigods team up. So yeah...
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D'oh! by
on 2013-03-11 04:56:00 UTC
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Obviously, that first sentence should have ended in a question mark.
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Er. Well. by
on 2013-03-11 04:37:00 UTC
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I haven't taken a single Latin class (not offered at my school), but I have friends who have. I have taken four years of French, though, so I understand what to do with gendered nouns and stuff.
My grasp of Latin only takes me to coming up with Mary Sue classification names for my Sue Report, really, although I've attempted Potterverse spells once or twice as well. -
Re: Er. Well. by
on 2013-03-11 04:54:00 UTC
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Incroyable; tu as assisté des classes de français pour quatre ans! Moi aussi: deux ans dans « junior high », et deux ans au lycée. Et j’ai beaucoup d’opportunités pour pratiquer le français. Le français est une belle langue, non?
But enough French. As for Latin, I took some Latin classes in college, and I truly appreciate the etymological doors that it opens--which, I think, ties into your attempted lexical feats in taxonomy and thaumaturgy. -
Français est belle, oui... by
on 2013-03-11 09:49:00 UTC
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mais je n'ai pas des opportunités pour utiliser-t-il. Je ne comprends pas pourquoi l'Occident aiment la langue Latin. Anglais est déjà très difficile a apprendre. Pourquoi vous n'avons pas apprendre Ancien Anglais? Elle existait encore, oui?
In Malaysia, there is no Latin Language classes offered, and Classical Malay are still close enough to Modern Malay, so there are only chapters in the syllabus, not an entire class devoted to it. If people wish to be extremely cultured, They'll learn Queen's English, or Arabic.
Lagipun, kami amat sukar untuk menguasai Bahasa Inggeris walaupun ia diajar dari Tahun 1 hingga Tahun Pertama Universiti. Kebanyakan orang yang menggunakan Bahasa Inggeris dalam kehidupan sehari-hari akan lebih menggunakan bahasa pasar Inggeris daripada bahasa Inggeris yang betul.
Well, this thread may yet turn into a multilingual thread. I hope I didn't mangle French Language just now.... -
Francese, malaysiano... Cos'ha l'italiano che non va? by
on 2013-03-11 21:33:00 UTC
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Seriamente, non riesco a capire che cosa ci sia di così speciale nella lingua francese... L'italiano è anche più semplice da pronunciare!
Yeas, the resident Italian Boarder just had to write something in his native language too. -
Penutur Bahasa Itali. by
on 2013-03-12 03:17:00 UTC
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Ia juga wujud di sini? Sungguh luas jangkauan kumpulan siber PPC ini!
Do you Italians learn Latin too? Being were Roman Empire once was, I gues you may learn it. How different it is from Latin, anyway? -
Some high schools here teach Latin. by
on 2013-03-12 12:31:00 UTC
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And, believe me, they aren't that similar. Learning Latin is a pain even for us.
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Native-language bandwagon? Not really. by
on 2013-03-12 00:17:00 UTC
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Moun yo ki te ekri nan franse pa-t konnen franse tankou premyè lang yo. Si nou pa konte moun ki pale anglè yo, ou se sèl moun ki te ekri nan premyè lang li.
But enough from the resident Haitian; this post was about Latin, not the Romance languages!
As for your question, I think that more people take French than Italian simply because more schools offer French than do Italian. Besides, English has snatched a LOT of words from French: faux pas, nom de plume, nom de guerre...need I go on? -
Oops... by
on 2013-03-15 00:32:00 UTC
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To clarify, I meant this post in response to Sergio. I did not notice at the time that darklordaakmal had written something in his language as well. (Google Translate says Malay. Is that right, or is it Indonesian?)
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Yes, it's Malay. (nm) by
on 2013-03-17 01:54:00 UTC
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Quite a good reason for French loan-words. by
on 2013-03-12 05:42:00 UTC
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Once upon a time, French was spoken by the English royalty. Thanks to the massive cultural and scientific boost generated by the Enlightenment, it became the language of the nobles and scientists. The cultural osmosis must have occurred during that time period...
Vous parlez créole, monsieur/madame? Misère, mon cerveau me dit que je suis capable de lire votre texte, j'entends les sons, mais je ne comprends rien! -
Creole and French by
on 2013-03-13 00:10:00 UTC
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Premièrement, je suis male (lis encore: sonofheaven176). Au sujet du créole, oui, je le parle.
C’est bien pour toi que ton cerveau te dit que tu es capable de lire le texte : le créole est basé sur le français, et beaucoup des mots viennent du français. De plus, tu peux entendre les sons parce que l’orthographie créole est phonétique.
Afin de vous permettre comprendre, permets-moi à traduire le créole en français : « Ceux qui ont écrit en français n’ont pas connu le français comme leur première langue. Si nous ne comptons pas ceux qui parlent anglais, tu est la seule personne qui a écrit dans sa première langue. » -
Très intéressant! by
on 2013-03-13 05:05:00 UTC
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Il me semblait que vous étiez en train de dire quelque chose à propos des anglophones. C'est fascinant comment le créole a évolué séparément du français...
*Se tient la tête entre ses mains* Ouais, j'aurais dû m'en douter que "son" indiquait bien quelque chose. Pardon. -
Pardonné. by
on 2013-03-13 23:25:00 UTC
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Nous tous faisons des erreurs!
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Mangling by
on 2013-03-11 19:12:00 UTC
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You did not completely mangle the French--I could understand what you were trying to say--but your French is off.
"l'utiliser," not "utiliser-t-il" (Object pronouns go before the verb.)
"aime," not "aiment" ("Occident" is a singular noun, so you need a singular verb.)
"à apprendre" (note the accent), not "a apprendre" (Spelling error)
"n'avez pas appris", not "n'avons pas apprendre" (Two conjugation errors)
"L'Angalis Ancien", not "Ancien Anglais" (Adjectives go after nouns in French.)
And as for your questions themselves; it's mostly cultural. Rome was the dominant power over much of Europe, and Latin has a big influence over many European languages. So it only makes sense that people would be enamored with Latin, even if only to give things more of an "ancient" feel.
As for Old English, it is not at all similar to Modern English. There is actually a TV Tropes page about the evolution of English, if you're interested.