Re: Re. Goodfic recommendations

Subject: Re: Re. Goodfic recommendations
Author: EileenAlphabet
Posted on: 2013-12-18 11:39:00 UTC

I love the Rec Centers and use them myself, but since they are ordered by users, it makes it kinda difficult to look up fics from your favourite canon.
Also, the PPC promotes good writing and goodfics, but that isn't very prominent on our wiki. Missions are easy to find, but you have to look for pages like lists of people willing to beta and the Rec Centres. Even the Legendary Goodfic from LOTR are featured neither on the LOTR of the LOTR fandom pages. I wouldn't mind a more visible promotion of goodfics.

I have had some of the same thoughts as you, about how to ensure quality control. Great minds do think alike, after all. :D
I imagined a sort of formalized nomination system, to ensure that there’s a filter in place.

Basically, what I had in mind is a process along the lines of:

1) Boarder A (you would not need Permission, but you should at the very least have introduced yourself on the Board) recommends a fic on the continuum’s talk page, not the page itself. The nomination includes a short description and warnings, if any apply. For the rest of the process, this recommendation counts as a yes-vote.

2) The fic then sits on the talk page until at least two other Boarders have read the fic and given it an enthusiastic yes. It is then moved to the actual page for the continuum and signed with the names of all three yes-voters. Everyone gets cake.

3) If one or two of the Boarders vote no, it gets booted. Possible to an archive list, so people don’t nominate a fic that has already been rejected. (Maybe the fic can get another chance if, say, two more Boarders vote and it gets three yes-votes in all. That way, it would be more of a best-out-of-five-contest.)

This is the basic idea. All the specifics are of course up for debate, such as how many votes are actually needed and what constitutes an 'enthusiastic yes'. Maybe also a rule that says that we can only nominate works that are either finished or have been long abandoned, so that we don’t approve a fic that later goes bad.

So yeah, that's the basic idea.

Re. Followed pages. It is probably a preferences thing. I have gotten email updates when pages I follow (such as Dragon Age) have been edited. Although, it has been a while since last time, so it is possible that they've changed it.

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A few PPC Wiki questions for everyone. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-16 15:12:00 UTC Reply

Because I might be a tyrant, but I'm no tyrant!

But seriously, I'd like to get some input from more than just one or two people here. It's your wiki, too, even if you never make a single edit.

1. Recently, a user (who has showed up on the Board, but not under their own username) wiped the content of our VeggieTales article and converted it to a page about their agent, for which they do not have Permission. I tried to contact them about this, but they have not responded.

The question here is not whether or not to get rid of the unauthorized and presumptive agent page. The question is whether or not we should bother restoring the VeggieTales page. I'm personally of the opinion that we don't need it, since there are no missions there and no agents from there, and it isn't otherwise of any particular significance to the PPC universe. I say we just delete it properly. What about you guys? Delete or restore?

2. While we're at it, what about these other candidates for deletion? They have been sitting around without being discussed for some time now.

I think I'd agree with deleting all the continuum pages. My usual criteria are 1. Are there any missions there? 2. Are there any PPC characters from there? 3. Are there a lot of pages that link to it? Is this topic important to the PPC? If the answers are "no," I don't think we need the page.

I'd also agree with deleting Cold's page, since there's no information about him and the only link to his page is from the Glossary's Talk page.

I'm not sure about Suichi Sanders. I think maybe the content should be merged with Anamia Sanders, since they have a shared backstory.

As for the images, you can actually see all unused image files here. If you've got files there that you're not using anymore, would you please delete them if you can or else mark them for speedy deletion? (You can do the latter with the template {{Speedydelete}}, or just add the category "Candidates for speedy deletion".) Thanks!

3. So Wikia has rolled out a new version of itself that's more friendly to mobile devices and such. With that has come a new WYSIWIG editor they're calling VisualEditor. I use source mode, so I don't particularly care about this, but I know plenty of people prefer the current rich text editor. Do you guys want an admin to switch on the new VisualEditor so you can try it out? I hear it's got some problems, but so does the current RTE, and they won't get fixed unless people find them and tell Wikia.

4. Might we want to replace the current User Talk pages with message walls? This would allow you to be notified when someone responds to a conversation you're in on someone else's wall, which is a major improvement over only being notified when someone posts on your own talk page. The downside (at least for me) is that message walls can't be formatted like other pages, so in my case I'd lose the section I've got for story reviews and my other subheadings. Not that anyone ever bothers to NOTICE and USE them anyway; I almost always have to sort new posts after the fact. So I'm okay with losing that. --;

5. Uh... anybody else wanna bring up something wiki-related for discussion? (Just don't ask me about the Mary Sue article. I am very busy right now. I will get to it when I get to it.)

~Neshomeh

P.S. How do you all like the new format I've been using to spruce up department and division pages? If you haven't noticed, check out the current <a href="http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/DepartmentofMarySues">DMS, DBS, DIC, and DF articles, then compare them to the rest. (I've also done a number of divisions in the DMS, DBS, and Floaters, but I'm not gonna link all those.)

~Neshomeh

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Okay, so. Decision time! by Neshomeh on 2013-12-18 16:55:00 UTC Reply

Looks like we're all in favor of deleting the VeggieTales/Olivia Fries page. It is done!

As for the rest, it's a little fuzzy, but here's what I've got:

2. Candidates for deletion

Continuum pages

- Delete all continuum pages: 7
- Delete all except Trigun: 3

I'll go ahead and remove all but Trigun for now.

Cold's page

- Delete Cold: 6
- Keep Cold: 2

Most seem to be in favor of deleting it, but a few voiced their concern about losing something that might not be recoverable. My suggestion, then, is to move him to the Out of Continuity category. That way the information isn't lost, but he won't be sitting around being confusing in the main categories anymore.

Suichi Sanders' page

- Merge Suichi: 5
- Delete Suichi: 3
- Keep Suichi: 1

The majority seem to be in favor of not deleting the page. Anybody want to be in charge of merging the content with Anamia Sanders' page? I don't think I'll have time this week or next.

Unused images

Seems like we're in favor of deleting anything non-unique, that's been replaced by something else, but we might want to find a place for the likes of Zaneth. (Also, thanks to PoorCynic for actually marking his own old images for deletion as requested!)

3. VisualEditor

- Try it out: 5
- Leave it alone: 1

Lots of us are ambivalent about this—even most of the yeses took the tone of "eh, I guess." So, uh... I guess I'll turn it on? Anyone want to say anything else first?

4. Message Wall

- Turn on Message Wall: 5
- Leave it alone: 1

Same deal as above. This I'm even more hesitant to go ahead with, since they do outright replace the current User Talk pages. The content wouldn't be lost, just archived, but... ehhhh. Any further comments on this?

~Neshomeh

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Answers. by SeaTurtle on 2013-12-17 04:32:00 UTC Reply

1) I vote to delete the page.

2) Go ahead with your suggestions. I doubt those pages had much traffic anyways.

3)

Just do whatever. I don't really mind.

4) Sounds like a good idea!

5) Nothing to add, ma'am!

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Re: A few PPC Wiki questions for everyone. by Autumn_68 on 2013-12-17 03:41:00 UTC Reply

1) Regarding our VeggieTales page.
I dunno, about the user, honestly. I would've said,"Wait for her response!", but it seems that this user never, ever, seem to respond. So, I'll say go ahead and delete the VeggieTales page.

2) Regarding the Candidates for Deletion.
Yes, I'll agree with deleting all the continuum pages, since no agent I've heard of is involved with A Series of Unfortunate Events.

As for Cold's page, I'm not so sure...

For Suichi Sanders, I agree we should merge the content with Anamia Sanders.

3) Regarding the VisualEditor.
I almost always use mobile devices when I edit the wiki, and I'm perfectly fine with the source mode. Plus, I'm more familiar with it. But we could try using the VisualEditor for a while, to see whether it's better, or too buggy.

4) Regarding replacing our User Talk pages with message walls.
Yes, I do want to replace it with message walls. It seems more convenient that way.

5) Regarding more wiki questions.
Nope. Can't think of any, now, at least.

~Autumn

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Re: A few PPC Wiki questions for everyone. by son_of_heaven176 on 2013-12-16 23:50:00 UTC Reply
1. I agree with everyone who says to delete the page. If someone finds a badfic in that fandom, the page can be remade.
  
  2. I'd suggest deleting everything except the Trigun page. With all the anime fans we have here, it's impossible that no one is willing to spork a badfic in that continuum! There certainly has to be badfic of it, for the reasons listed on that page. (Is anyone willing to pick up the slack?)
  
  As for the Sanders sisters, I'd suggest deleting both pages unless the stories involving them can be found or unless their creator is currently working on a story for them.
  
  3. I'd be OK to the change.
  
  4. I'd be OK to the change.
  
  5. Since you've established earlier that anyone can add missing spin-offs to the (In)Complete List of PPC Fiction, maybe a line to that effect could be added to that page?
  
  P.S. I've read the new DMS article, and I have to say that it is very good. I like what you've done with it.
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Anamia is grandfathered in. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-17 17:29:00 UTC Reply

Although we more or less put the kibosh on adding characters to the wiki with no writing or anything behind them, we don't want to delete pages created before then with good content that people put work into. (Cold's page, by contrast, contains next to nothing, and he can't even be attributed to a known PPCer, since hS denied creating him.)

I'm personally rather serious about making sure the wiki is based on external primary and secondary sources, but because people have done a lot of original writing on it, there are cases where the wiki itself counts as a primary source. IMO, this is one of them.

~Neshomeh

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A few Wiki answers by the Irish Samurai on 2013-12-16 21:55:00 UTC Reply

1) I've never even heard of VeggieTales before, and the general consensus so far seems to be 'delete', so I'd say go with that.

2) Of the other candidates for deletion, I don't know much about most of them either, so don't really have an opinion. Deleting stuff that isn't relevant to the PPC sounds sensibel to me. Your criteria for judging whether or not a page is relevant seems good to me. 'Is this topic important to the PPC' could be a little tricky to quantify sometimes, but the others are nice and straightforward. And I can’t think of any other criteria to add that would be useful.

With specific regards to Trigun, I actually do have a mission in the works for that, although I've got no idea when it'll actually be published. If you think that makes it worth keeping the page, then keep it - and I'll do my best to justify that in a timely fashion. If not, then I'll just link to an offsite wiki when I have the mission done. I'll probably be doing a fair few missions in continua without their own pages (there's a reason my current agent pair are DMS/Freelance), and I wouldn't bother making a page for any of the other one-off visits I do. Don't really see the point in duplicating info if the only link between them and the PPC is 'one team went there once'.

As for Agent Cold, given that the entire page is about a dozen words, I don't really see the need for it. I would think that line could just be transferred to the 'C' section of the Glossary of PPC Characters. If more information turns up about him at a later date, then he could get his own page back.

3) Just want some clarification on this point: is the VisualEditor thing going to replace either of the existing options, or will it run alongside them?

4) Um... I don't think I've ever written on anyone's Talk Page, or had anyone write on mine, so I'm struggling to come up with an opinion on this one.

5) Nope

6) The updated Department pages look good, and I think the unified structure/layout is a big improvement. Nice work.

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Well, in that case... (and more clarifications) by Neshomeh on 2013-12-17 17:00:00 UTC Reply

I'd be okay keeping the Trigun page around knowing that someone is actually working on a mission there. And, like doctorlit says, there's plenty of precedent for single-mission pages. IMO, it's useful to have them for people who might want to browse for missions that way. I suppose the Killed Badfic list also fills that function, but having an actual page is an opportunity to discuss the continuum in our own style, with a focus on what's important about it to the PPC. I agree there's not much point in having a page just to duplicate information from other places. {= )

I use "How many pages link here?" as my qualifier for "Is this page important?" I'll sometimes also do a search for the term in question to see if other pages mention it without actually linking to it.

Re. Cold, I'm afraid putting him in the Glossary isn't a solution, since the Glossary is explicitly only for characters that a) are Permiss'ed, and b) have something written about them or otherwise proving they exist to link to offsite, however minor. If we could find any mention of him anywhere in a permitted spinoff, then we could do that.

VisualEditor will eventually replace the current Rich Text Editor. It will run alongside source mode, just as the RTE does.

~Neshomeh

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We've got plenty of single-mission continuum pages. by doctorlit on 2013-12-16 22:44:00 UTC Reply

But you can happily leave creation of continuum pages to me, if you would prefer. I like making those, and mini pages as well. I might hit you up for info, though. Researching whole news canons is tricky!

I hadn't really noticed that. by the Irish Samurai on 2013-12-19 14:31:00 UTC Reply

I guess I've mostly just been browsing the larger continuum pages.

As for leaving the page creation for you to do, well, I do think that's a very generous offer, but I also feel that I should take responsibility for my actions. If/when I do publish missions in a new continuum, I will make at least a basic page for it on the wiki.

That's all you need! by doctorlit on 2013-12-19 14:49:00 UTC Reply

Others can come in and fancy it up later.

Attempts at answers by EileenAlphabet on 2013-12-16 20:48:00 UTC Reply
1. I say delete. I agree with your criteria for when a continuum should have a page and this does not live up to them.
  
  2. Delete on the continua pages.
  With Agent Cold, I'm not sure. Doctorlit mentioned that he might be from an old mission that has been wiped off the face of the web, in which case it would indeed be a shame to delete this last trace of him.
  As for Suichi Sanders, I'm a bit confused as to whether or not there was ever a mission written about her. If there is, I would like to read it and cast a vote as to whether or not she should be kept as a notable Sue. (The way we did with the other Sue-pages.) If the mission was never written, I say delete. Excepting very special cases, I believe that the wiki should be reserved for characters and histories that people have actually put work into and finished, not just thought about in a 'wouldn't it be funny to do a story about X'-way.
  
  3. If we are getting it sooner or later anyway, I say that we wait and give them a chance to fix bugs before we start using it. But I prefer source mode as well, so I do not hold a strong opinion.
  
  4. I don't really have an opinion about this either. Sorry. However, isn't it possible now to follow a talk-page the way you can a ordinary page and get notified of changes? They wouldn't be notification of replies specifically to you, but it would be better than nothing. I thought it was possible, but I can't really find anything about it, so I could be wrong.
  
  5. Yes, um, I have an idea about maybe starting to have goodfic recommendations on the different continua pages. Should I elaborate here or should I start a new thread, do you think?
  
  As for your PS, they look very nice indeed. :D
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Re. Goodfic recommendations by Neshomeh on 2013-12-17 17:11:00 UTC Reply

Would that be in addition to the current Rec Center setup?

I'm not sure I like the idea of putting lists of fics on continuum pages. Seems like an invitation for anyone to drop anything they like on it without quality control—which is fine for the personal recommendations, but putting it on the page itself is more like a stamp that says "The PPC Endorses These Stories," which can't really be true unless a bunch of us actually read them and agree on it, in which case they're probably Legendary Goodfic.

So, er, in other words, please do elaborate! I may not be understanding what you mean at all. ^_^;

Re. Talk pages, apparently you can follow someone else's User Talk (I just followed yours). I don't think you necessarily get notified when someone edits a followed page, though. Maybe that's something you can alter in your preferences. I'll have to poke around and see.

~Neshomeh

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Re: Re. Goodfic recommendations by EileenAlphabet on 2013-12-18 11:39:00 UTC Reply

I love the Rec Centers and use them myself, but since they are ordered by users, it makes it kinda difficult to look up fics from your favourite canon.
Also, the PPC promotes good writing and goodfics, but that isn't very prominent on our wiki. Missions are easy to find, but you have to look for pages like lists of people willing to beta and the Rec Centres. Even the Legendary Goodfic from LOTR are featured neither on the LOTR of the LOTR fandom pages. I wouldn't mind a more visible promotion of goodfics.

I have had some of the same thoughts as you, about how to ensure quality control. Great minds do think alike, after all. :D
I imagined a sort of formalized nomination system, to ensure that there’s a filter in place.

Basically, what I had in mind is a process along the lines of:

1) Boarder A (you would not need Permission, but you should at the very least have introduced yourself on the Board) recommends a fic on the continuum’s talk page, not the page itself. The nomination includes a short description and warnings, if any apply. For the rest of the process, this recommendation counts as a yes-vote.

2) The fic then sits on the talk page until at least two other Boarders have read the fic and given it an enthusiastic yes. It is then moved to the actual page for the continuum and signed with the names of all three yes-voters. Everyone gets cake.

3) If one or two of the Boarders vote no, it gets booted. Possible to an archive list, so people don’t nominate a fic that has already been rejected. (Maybe the fic can get another chance if, say, two more Boarders vote and it gets three yes-votes in all. That way, it would be more of a best-out-of-five-contest.)

This is the basic idea. All the specifics are of course up for debate, such as how many votes are actually needed and what constitutes an 'enthusiastic yes'. Maybe also a rule that says that we can only nominate works that are either finished or have been long abandoned, so that we don’t approve a fic that later goes bad.

So yeah, that's the basic idea.

Re. Followed pages. It is probably a preferences thing. I have gotten email updates when pages I follow (such as Dragon Age) have been edited. Although, it has been a while since last time, so it is possible that they've changed it.

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More thoughts by Neshomeh on 2013-12-18 15:12:00 UTC Reply

I can absolutely get behind more obvious promotion of goodfic. That's a great goal.

I'm still leery of sticking lists of fic right on the continuum pages, though. You'd have to explain the process of how to nominate a fic on every single page to prevent people from thinking they can add things on a whim, and it could easily be cluttered.

My solution to that would be to take advantage of the "In Fanfiction" sections that most continuum pages have (and all of them could have). You could link from there to the rec page for that continuum, which could take the form of "[Continuum Name]/Goodfic Recs" —or maybe "PPC Rec Center/[Continuum]", incorporating the continuum rec pages into the existing Rec Center.

The process you suggest sounds good to me, but my only other concern is that you may have your hopes set too high for the likelihood of enough people participating to make it work. I don't know a remedy for that (except coming here, jumping up and down, and waving my arms around, that is). {= (

~Neshomeh

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Why didn't I think of that? by EileenAlphabet on 2013-12-18 21:07:00 UTC Reply

Having /Goodfic Recs pages would serve the purpose just as well and would mean that we don't clutter up the continua pages or their talk pages. I would still suggest making the recommendations on the talk page for the Goodfic Recs page.

I also still think a voting process would be a good idea. (And it has nothing to do with the fact that I have concocted an elaborate voting system and now I've grown overly fond of my own idea and want to see it used. Nope, not at all.)

As for how many people will participate, I imagine that it will vary much depending on the continuum. I realise that with some of the lesser known canons, a fic can sit on the talk page for quite some time, maybe indefinitely. But I don't think it can be helped, except by making more goodfic threads, which I personally wouldn't mind.

I don't know how many of the other Boarders have noticed this sub-thread, but I could make a new thread, outlining the idea and see how many think it would be something they would like to participate in?

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A new thread is probably a good idea. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-20 15:56:00 UTC Reply

Ooh, this is kind of OT, but here's a thought I just had for promoting goodfic: what about starting something like a book club, where every month somebody picks a fic they like and everyone else who's in the club has to read it? Sure, you'll most likely end up reading things in fandoms you don't know, but if the fic is good enough, maybe it'll get you interested enough to check out the original work. Then there could be a discussion about the fic, and if it's well-received, it can go on the rec list. This could be in addition to the other nomination process.

I'd probably participate in that, though I might be hard-pressed to come up with fics for reading myself.

~Neshomeh

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That sounds lovely! (nm) by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-12-20 19:52:00 UTC Reply

Waving your arms around sounds good. by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-12-18 19:23:00 UTC Reply

I'd participate, now that I know about it.

-Aila

Wiki by Antigone68104 on 2013-12-16 17:02:00 UTC Reply

1) Another vote for deletion. If we ever get a VeggieTales mission, the article can be recreated then.

2) I'd roll Suichi into Anamia's page, and delete the rest.

3) Not using a mobile device, I'll leave this up to those who do.

Clarification about VisualEditor by Neshomeh on 2013-12-16 17:26:00 UTC Reply

The new editor isn't just for people who use mobile devices, it applies to all users. Updating the editor is part of a general movement on Wikia's part toward greater mobile accessibility, though. (Apparently an increasingly large percentage of people are accessing the Internet from smartphones and tablets these days.)

Also, it will eventually replace the current RTE anyway. We have a choice of switching it on early if we want to get used to it and give feedback on it before we're forced to convert. I don't know when that's slated to happen.

~Neshomeh

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Woo! Wiki times! by doctorlit on 2013-12-16 16:23:00 UTC Reply
1. Before the Veggietales talk page (which also got wiped) got wiped, I had already been advocating there for the page's deletion. It was even less informative than most of the continuum pages that have nothing to do with the PPC. The largest section of the Veggietales page was just the lyrics of the theme song. So I say leave it dead. (At least the rule-ignoring upstart accomplished something productive!)
  
  2. The continuum pages may as well go. (I need to get around to buying the Unfortunate Event Series. I've wanted to read that for years.)
  
  I would rather keep the Suichi Sanders page. It's a little tricky, since the entire spinoff of the agent she was related to appears be unwritten (at least for now). But she is still an original character by a PPCer, and serves as a villain for that spinoff, just like hS' Black Cats characters, and many of them have pages of their own.
  
  With agent Cold, are we sure they aren't from an older spinoff that's just gotten Geocities'd? That info had to come from somewhere, and I would hate to have a piece of PPC history get completely wiped off the internet, if this page is the only record of Cold.
  
  As for the photos, I guess the ones that already have a replacement on their appropriate agent page can be deleted, since they're redundant now.
  
  Oh, we have a picture of Zaneth. That's the illithid that kept showing up during the OS era. They ought to be on the Glossary at least, yeah? Or even a page. I could swear they were in more places than just the one written by Architeuthis that's mentioned on Bulldog's page.
  
  3. The text editor is SO BAD AND USELESS we might as well try out this visual editor. It can't be much worse, right?
  
  4. In contrast, I think the talk pages work just fine as they are. Let's stick with the system that actually works!
  
  5. Minis! This topic kind of slid off my general consciousness (moving out of one's parents' house is harder work than it might seem) but I started looking at our mini page again. I'm noticing that some of our minis ("The Demented Cartoon Movie's" mini-Hi-Blahs, here: http://tawaki-ppc.livejournal.com/2096.html ) are mentioned in published PPC somethings without actually being from a mission to that continuum, while others (Garfield's mini-Mondays, here: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=172463;search_term=mini-Monday ) are from Board posts.
  
  How do we want to treat these cases? Do we maybe want to leave a note on these entries, or some other marker, that they weren't technically created the official way, and can still be over-written if a mission is published that creates minis in that continuum?
  
  (Although thinking about it realistically, the mini-Hi-Blahs in particular can probably just be left canon. There's never going to be fan fiction for that flash movie.)
  
  And the new Department and Division pages are GREAT! They're so much more informative now, and they're actually fun to read, as well!
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Regarding Cold by Outhra on 2013-12-17 03:49:00 UTC Reply

Since the information about him is only "he is male" and "he works in the Department of Finance", would expanding on him from that basic framework step on anyone's toes? He could always return in some future story, in the honored tradition of bringing back minor characters to serve a purpose in some new plot development, but only if the writer of that new story was allowed to give him more description than just those two small facts. As it is now, we don't even know what species he is.

If the uncertainty means that no one can do anything with him, I say the page should be dropped, but if the uncertainty means that he can be expanded upon, there's still at least a partial reason to keep the page.

I'd actually been toying with including Cold in a side-story I'd write once I got permission, but that inclusion would have established his species and a few personality traits, so if expanding on him is a no-go, then I'd have to shelve that idea.

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Another option for Cold. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-17 17:35:00 UTC Reply

Given the concerns about losing a trace of history, we could just move him to the Out of Continuity category with a note that he could possibly return to continuity if any information is found about him. Sorry I didn't think of it sooner!

I don't know how I feel about someone else just picking him up and using him. We don't even know who he belongs to, so it's impossible to get any kind of consent. Plus, if we ever do find him, we might end up with contradictory information on our hands, and that would be a bother.

~Neshomeh

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I don't think that's such a good idea. by Outhra on 2013-12-17 23:44:00 UTC Reply

There's not much that putting his article Out of Continuity would solve that couldn't be solved the same way by deleting it. Plus, if we find something on the original Cold, if he even existed(it's possible that Cold's was one of the many articles created prior to the in-story appearance of the character it details, though I'll admit that's a little unlikely since Huinesoron, the only editor on Cold's page, admits in his talk that he doesn't know where Cold came from) and the one-sentence existing article had previously been deleted, there's nothing stopping someone from just creating a new article with the new information, but putting it under the same name. As for the "losing a trace of history" concerns, I'm not sure they're entirely valid, since the little information we have doesn't exactly support him being in the history at all, and if he doesn't have a place, he can't be expanded upon, and he can't be properly categorized, I'd say it would be simpler to delete the page and resurrect it later on the off chance someone finds something than to spend lots of effort searching for a mention of this guy to justify a two-sentence article's continued existence.

Honestly, I've never really liked the Out of Continuity section. I can see the point in it, like if people want to find information on the Dusk'n'Dawn unauthorized spin-off or the Chliever spin-off that was removed from PPC canon by its author, but there are also several articles that are in there when they could or should be deleted, such as the pages on the two agents that were created before their author attained Permission, only for said author to vanish before updating the pages or receiving said Permission. If we start a precedent for moving things to the Out-of-Continuity section rather than removing them entirely, then... well, I don't know what exactly would happen, but it probably won't benefit the wiki. It's probably not going to form a huge problem, either, but I don't think it would be for the best if the Out of Continuity section gets bigger than it needs to be.

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In that case, I have a task for you. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-18 20:06:00 UTC Reply

I have absolutely no authority to assign tasks, but I'm gonna try anyway. {= P

It seems to me that the only way to properly resolve this is to find out where the heck Cold came from, or else determine once and for all that he came from nowhere. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is nothing less than the Quest for Cold. *cue theme music*

I've saved you some trouble by going through hS's Webplex earlier this morning—most of it, anyway. Everything in the Agents section and most of the History section. Nothing else looked too promising. I think you can also disregard Tawaki's spin-off, since I've been over that with a fine-toothed comb many times. Were I to continue the search myself, I'd start with the spinoffs of agents hS has adopted over the years. There's a list of these on his User page. Good luck, and godspeed!

... Or not. Up to you!

~Neshomeh, who would do it if she weren't about to leave for a week and a half and thus busy preparing.

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I did the same thing. by Huinesoron on 2013-12-19 09:39:00 UTC Reply

Unfortunately I can't access the Wiki at work, but my guess at the chain of events is this:

-Someone Unknown adds Cold to the Glossary.
-Someone suggests on the Glossary's talk page that he must be mine.
-I disagree.
-I make a page for him.

Because I have no idea where he came from. I don't think any of my adopted agents are relevant - they all either predate the Department of Finance (Vemi) or post-date Cold's mention (the Building Maintenance team). I've also checked over the two relevant History stories (Reorg and CD), and he's definitely not in there.

I've also also checked the Board. Every mention of the word 'finance' can be found by the Search function, and he's not there. Neither does he appear as 'Agent Cold'. The word 'cold' is too general, sadly. As for 'Clover'... nope. Unfortunately, the Board only goes back to 2008, so if it's before that, no chance.

Um... I have an archive of every thread title that can be salvaged from before the Board archives begin... 'cold' appears once, in another context; 'finance' also appears once, referring to the PPC Manual, which he's not in.

The other person to have been particularly involved with Finance (sort of) was Keily, and her agent Keily Shinra... but searching 'ppc keily cold' gets me nothing mentioning him.

I don't know. My guess is that he's a simple name-drop somewhere, like Chiaroscuro of Legal. I don't suppose he comes from the same source as Fix-It? [Ducks]

hS

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You created the page in 2008. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-19 15:09:00 UTC Reply

April 20, 2008, to be exact. I started the Glossary on February 8, 2011. Page histories, they help.

So no, he got on the Glossary's Talk page because he had a regular page with no links, and you must've had some other reason for making the page. My guess is the same as yours: he's a once-off bit character who's mentioned once somewhere. You must've come across him, and since you like Infrastructure, you took the time to add him (but not where he came from), and here we are now.

And no, he's not from the same place as Fix-It. I just checked. It would have been funny, though!

~Neshomeh

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Just too early for the Board archives. by Huinesoron on 2013-12-19 15:36:00 UTC Reply

Well, bang goes that theory. Hrm. Pretty sure Crashing Down was done and dusted by '08... actually, I don't think I was really working on anything at that point. Hmm... my Board stats suggest I was at least actively posting, though.

Bother it all, this is just annoying. How hard can it be to track down one stupid character?

hS

I've just been through about two-thirds of the records. by Outhra on 2013-12-19 20:07:00 UTC Reply

There has, so far, been no mention of "Cold" outside of mentions of cold temperature or cold expressions, and almost all of what I haven't gone through has either been purged or are some of those spin-offs that post one mission and vanish into nothingness. The big sites that host multiple spin-offs don't have him, which means to find Cold's original mention, if it's still around, I'd need to rummage around in whichever miscellaneous livejournals I've missed so far. In summation: oh, bother.

You mentioned some of your Agents predating the Department of Finance, Huinesoron. About when was the DoF introduced? It would help me eliminate some of this potpourri.

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Finance... by Huinesoron on 2013-12-19 20:40:00 UTC Reply

... is first mentioned in the beginning of The Reorganisation, which dates to... looks like March 2005. And, obviously, we know Cold existed before April 2008, when his wiki page got made.

Hmm... one thing you might want to look into is the revision history for the Wiki's Main Page around that time. If Cold appeared in a mission, it may well have been posted there - it's a heap of files to look through, but less than the sum total of all PPC.

hS

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Re. Minis by Neshomeh on 2013-12-16 17:32:00 UTC Reply

I think I like the idea of putting a note on list entries that come from Board discussions or off-hand mentions. That way the information is there for anyone trying to look up that particular mini, but it won't appear to be set in stone.

On a related note, d'you wanna come up with some kind of standard format for the mini articles themselves? It's quite the hodge-podge right now. I recently cleaned up the "Mini/A-Team" page on a whim, but then I realized I really don't want that job. >.
~Neshomeh, picking her battles.

I will happily pick that battle! by doctorlit on 2013-12-16 18:37:00 UTC Reply

Or rather, I already had. I've just been working at veeeeeery sloooow speed. Once I get my next mission up (finished it six months ago, sheesh) I'm going to focus on the mini pages a bit more.

Oh, and on the A-Team minis, I think the movieverse mini-Lynch would be an example of what I mentioned in my earlier post, a suggested idea that was never officially published (need to double-check to be sure) so I'll take care of finding the source there.

While I'm thinking of it, I believe one of your agents is the owner of the only mini-Budong? Are there still any plans to finish that Farscape mission?

-doctorlit, who likes to list and categorize things, yes he does, and he will make the pages so pretty, my Precious, yes . . .

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That's no moon, that's a budong! by Neshomeh on 2013-12-16 19:19:00 UTC Reply

You are correct. Sadly, that mission will never be completed, because my copy of the badfic was corrupted in a change of computers and it doesn't seem to exist anywhere online anymore. I don't think it was very missionable to begin with, honestly, but I was new and shiny and overexcited. ^_^;

As for the rest, godspeed and good editing to you, sir!

~Neshomeh

I've already managed to confuse myself. NEW RECORD by doctorlit on 2013-12-18 05:18:00 UTC Reply

I can see what happened. In the Yu Yu Hakusho mission, "Captured by the Breeze," a mini-Tree is mentioned twice.

"'Not our department, thank Inari,' Kit replied, idly patting the mini-Tree."

"Teena muttered, going over to cuddle her beloved mini-Tree."

(Remember that Kit and Teena are basically the same person.)

Somebody saw these mini-Trees and, knowing that Yu Yu Hakusho has something called a Death Tree, assumed those were the minis of YYH, then listed them on the mini page. However, a few paragraphs above that first line I quoted, we get this line.

"The dragon [this is Wyldehorse] immediately started tumbling about with the mini-Balrog they had left behind, as a small, walking sakura tree approached the youko." [The youko could be either Wyldehorse or Teena, but that's not important here.]

Death Trees are, from what I've been able to research, made all or mostly from roots:

and definitely don't look much like a sakura (Japanese for cherry blossom tree).

In fact, reading just a little further would have shed light on the confusion.

"Teena muttered, going over to cuddle her beloved mini-Tree. This was what Wylde saw when she finished her shower and came out. Not to mention heard.

'Yes, wouldums like somebody to eat, honey? Does sweet Suabru miss his Mommy when she's gone? Maybe Mommy will take oo along on the next mission, and oo can eat the nasty Sue's soul, wouldums like that, sweetie, of course you would!'"

So the mini-sakura is named Suabru. There's a character named Subaru in the manga X/1999. Subaru appears on a "prisoner" Tarot card in X, with the chains replaced by cherry tree branches. And Agent Teena just happens to be the coordinator of the Official Fanfiction University of X.

I think it's pretty clear that the "mini-tree" is a mini-sakura tree, and was Teena M's choice of mini at the OFUX. But what about Yu Yu Hakusho's mini-Death Trees?

I don't think mini-Death Trees ever existed. The only thing nearing a description of YYH minis is this, again from "Captured by the Breeze."

"'Ah, the minis have settled into their blobs,' Wylde noted, scooping them up quickly. 'I'm sure they'll like their little section of Companion's Field while they wait for a University.'

'Nice little evil Amorphous Mini,' Teena said, patting Yusuked. Then her attention was yanked back to what was going on nearby."

I'm pretty sure "Companion's Field" refers to Valdemar's minis, which were mini-Companions at the time this mission was written. (Wyldehorse wrote the Official Fanfiction Collegium of Valdemar, and later retconned her mini choice, but that's another story.) I was confused for a long time (including the beginning of this post, which has taken over ninety minutes to write) because I couldn't find any reference to any "amorphous" or "blobby" creatures in Yu Yu Hakusho. I finally figured out that the authors referred to the minis as "amorphous" because no OFU yet existed for YYH. Two have since been written, but neither names a mini type, and haven't been updated since 2002 and 2006, respectively.

So . . . What now? I think we should simply remove the Yu Yu Hakusho listing from the mini page, since it never actually existed. It can then be open for standard mini invention by anyone who publishes a YYH mission (which it technically has been all this time, without anyone realizing it). I just want to double check that the Board at large thinks that's appropriate. So, thoughts, everyone?

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Er, I guess we can't flat-out remove it . . . by doctorlit on 2013-12-18 15:03:00 UTC Reply

. . . since Teena and Wyldehorse did bring back three minis from "Captured by the Breeze."

Whatever. I AM GOING TO MAKE THIS ALL WORK OUT

Okay, things just got complicated again. by doctorlit on 2013-12-19 02:41:00 UTC Reply

So it turns out there is a source for mini-Death Trees:

http://agent-chliever.livejournal.com/1866.html

Yep, it's one of Chliever's missions--the ones that he declared not PPC canon just before he left.

Now, despite this mission technically not having happened anymore, I think we should still leave the Yu Yu Hakusho mini as the mini-Death Tree, because Chliever did write them for the first time (after Teena M and Wyldehorse passed on doing so) and is still the only person to have even written in YYH since ye olden times. Would anyone else have a problem with that? Or shall we ignore Chliever's spin-off entirely and say YYH has never had a mini defined?

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I think it's okay to disregard that. by Neshomeh on 2013-12-20 02:14:00 UTC Reply

Aside from the fact that it was removed from canon, he never explicitly names the minis as mini-Death Trees; there's just a vague description of "something small and woody ... with sharp teeth." Oh, and a "tentacle" a couple paragraphs down. I guess that's kind of an odd choice if it's a sakura tree, but then, would all the X minis be the same tree, or is the sakura specific to Subaru? (I've seen X, but I don't know this stuff. >.
~Neshomeh

That does make sense. by doctorlit on 2013-12-20 03:42:00 UTC Reply

A lot of this problem has been people (read: mostly me) seeing "mini-Death Tree" on the wiki and misinterpreting what they (I) read Yu Yu Hakusho elsewhere to match the assumption of the Death Tree. Which just goes back to why it's important to base the wiki on solid info from other sources.

I guess it's possible that Teena M intended for different characters to have different minis, but with no original source to go by, it's a little hard to make the assumption. And you've seen the anime and still don't have any other suggestions, I think we're stuck with mini-sakura tree for X.

Some insight by Phobos on 2013-12-20 06:09:00 UTC Reply

The Sakura in X is connected to Subaru Sumeragi, but it is more closely connected to his counterpart, Seishiro Sakurazuka. Seishiro is the Sakurazukamori, an assassin who buries his victims under a specific (possibly malevolently evil) Sakura tree. I think that is probably what the mini references.

As for potential other minis, options are limited. This really is a series about one group of people fighting another for the fate of the world, there's not really any monsters or beasties. Though now that I mention it, mini-Beasts could work. Beast is the more-or-less sentient computer connected to another one of the characters (Satsuki Yatoji).

Hopefully that gelps a little.

-Phobos

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Ah, interesting. by doctorlit on 2013-12-20 06:57:00 UTC Reply

That saves me some research, too. Thank you!

*pats, gives tea* by Neshomeh on 2013-12-18 15:35:00 UTC Reply

Well do I know that feeling! Here, do you take sugar?

I think removing the list entry would be fine, actually—unless you want to create a YYH mini listing for the ones Teena and Wylde brought back, in which case I guess it needs the entry on the main Mini page to link to it.

But, another option would be to remove the list entry, but mention on the YYH continuum page that although YYH minis have been spotted on missions, they have no determined form yet. That preserves the integrity of the list (such as it is) while still making the information available in a place people would be likely to look for it.

It's totally up to you, though!

~Neshomeh

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Sounds reasonable to me. *shrug* (nm) by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-12-18 06:57:00 UTC Reply

Always about the Wiki... by Herr Wozzeck on 2013-12-16 16:20:00 UTC Reply

1) Delete the page. I don't think I've seen anything related to VeggieTales around here. Maybe it was written in anticipation for a VeggieTales related mission that got scrapped? I dunno. Either way, it doesn't have much of a point, even with the hijacking of the page to create an agent.

2) I say go ahead with deleting the continuum pages and the two character pages you mentioned there.

3) Eh... I'm used to the old format. But at the same time, I often find myself dipping into source mode to get some HTML-related stuff right, so maybe this version streamlines that better? I don't know, maybe it's worth experimentation.

5) What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?

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According to Monty Python... by Neshomeh on 2013-12-16 17:42:00 UTC Reply

The meaning of life is "nothing very special. Try to be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."

Works for me. {= )

~Neshomeh

No no, not that meaning of life. by Herr Wozzeck on 2013-12-16 22:37:00 UTC Reply

I mean the meaning of life, the universe and everything!

42!!!!! by Autumn_68 on 2013-12-17 03:24:00 UTC Reply

Sorry. *stares up at 5 exclamation points* Couldn't help myself.

~Autumn

There we go! (nm) by Herr Wozzeck on 2013-12-17 03:55:00 UTC Reply

But that's not a meaning. by Huinesoron on 2013-12-17 09:19:00 UTC Reply

Sure, it's the answer to the great question of life, the universe, and everything, but reading it to be a meaning assumes the question in, uh, question to be 'What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything?'. Which is certainly possible - but by no means certain.

hS

The questionÂ… by hermione of vulcan on 2013-12-17 14:04:00 UTC Reply

…is "What is six times nine?"

But we have been told all our lives that six times nine is fifty-four.

Does this question and answer mean that all we believe is a lie?

Or does it highlight the contradictory, unpredictable, ultimately incomprehensible nature of the universe?

We will never know. We need never know. We simply must accept our insignificance in the grand scheme of the universe.

(Been listening to Night Vale, can you tell?)

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Answers by Storme Hawk on 2013-12-16 15:43:00 UTC Reply

You're a Tyrant :p

1) I'd say Delete
2) What you've suggested seems perfectly reasonable to me
3) The programmer inside me wouldn't mind, just to have a look at it. But otherwise it wouldn't effect me.
4) I haven't used the User Talk pages but from the looks of them I think I'd prefer Message Walls
5) No
6) (The P.S) Looks good

Storme Hawk

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