Subject: You misunderstand.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-11-13 10:15:00 UTC
I don't mean write a badfic for each fandom - I mean write a single badfic which is for every (or at least most) fandom. It's rather more tricky.
hS
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!!CHALLENGE!! by
on 2013-11-12 07:03:00 UTC
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Okay, here is a challenge. It's simple.
Write the worst Mary Sue you possibly can in your absolute favorite fandom.
The Emperor Protects! -
What? by
on 2013-11-12 09:26:00 UTC
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What's up with the exclamation marks? The only time they are used like that (formally [duh]) is in Spanish, where the exclamation marks in front is upside down. Anyway, let's get that out of the way...
Ahem.
(Fuuny enough, the last time I visited the Board, I told everyone sarcastically,"I had a sore throat." Afterwards, I really did get a sore throat. I guess Ailavyn was right...)
Presenting...the plot of "princess of loth loriel":
Chelsea-Cassandra Anithia Liliel Brooks, aka Lorithiellaria, is the daughter of Gladriel and Celegom, has been brought up by Elrod in her childhood. When she was thirteen, she was sent away to Earth for her safety. She, eventually, found a job as a waitress (she was offered to be a model, but was so humble she turned it down). Unfortunately, one day, she was raped and tortured by a group of generic men. Via plothole, she was sent back to Middle-eath, where all her wounds were healed by Elrod. She is still emotionally traumatised by her ordeal. Then, after the usual Sue-Council-Procedure, she became a member of the Felloship o da Ring, consisting of misogynistc Bromire and Gimly, hott and manly Eragron, hott Fodro, his servant Samy, hott Pipyn with a totally cute Scottish accent that makes Lorithiellaria giggle, Merrie, who possesses an uncanny resemblance to Charlie from Lost, and lastly...the most hott of them all...Legoals! (!!!!!!!!!)
Will Lorithiellaria die an angsty death, or will she fall in love with Leggy, have sex with him, and become the queen of Murkwood?" Or will this horrible fic (if I ever write this piece of crap) be reported to DOGA as soon as possible? Coming up with a generic Arda ruled by Mini-Balrogs was pretty painful.
~Autumn
PS: I always thought there was the Annual PPC Badfic Contest, but I suppose the PPC must be involved in the badfics written. Not really sure about that though... -
On a random note... by
on 2013-11-13 00:20:00 UTC
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The backstory of Tauriel has been revealed. According to Evangeline Lilly, “[Tauriel] is an orphan. Her parents were killed by orcs. When you understand that, you suddenly understand how and why this girl became the lethal killing machine that she is, how she became the head of the elven guard, how she got taken under Thranduil’s wings, and why she’s so passionate about fighting the evil that is in Middle Earth.”
And, apparently, she "is one of the few characters in the film who is purely fighting for truth and for justice. And she cares more about those two things than she does about any private, and personal, gain."
Things are starting to sound a little Sue-ish, eh?
~Autumn -
I'd say I give up... by
on 2013-11-13 21:29:00 UTC
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But we all know I'm going to see it in the theater anyway. *headdesk* Trying to keep an open mind is getting more and more painful.
Look, lemme just ask you this, fandom at large: How many elves don't have at least one parent who was killed by orcs, huh? Elves have been fighting orcs for a very, very long time. If Ms. Lilly is trying to make out like having parents who were killed by orcs is somehow an unusual thing to happen to an elf, she must, sadly, be mistaken.
Tauriel could still be salvageable depending on what comes through on screen, but her story as told here definitely has a whiff of Sue about it.
~Neshomeh -
Hmm. Flipside question. by
on 2013-11-14 11:28:00 UTC
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I'm assuming here that Tauriel is too young for her parents to have been killed during the Last Alliance - that is, I'm assuming that 'her parents were killed by Orcs' is an ambush, one-off scenario, not part of a massive battle, invasion, or war.
With that being said... how many named elves do we know of who were killed by orcs outside of cataclysmic battles?
Because I'm having trouble coming up with any.
Running through my mental Named Elf Checklist, we have:
-A whole bunch of people in Valinor. The only two who died are Miriel (of grief) and Finwe (of Morgoth).
-Feanor and his seven sons. They die of: possible ship-burning, balrog, jumping into lava, and... wow, do Cel'n'Cur'n'Car and Amrod/Amras really all die during kinslayings? That sucks.
-House Fingolfin. I count Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, Gil-Galad, Idril, Maeglin, and Elenwe, which is eight. One dies of Morgoth, one of Eol, one on the Helcaraxe, three in battle, one of Tuor, and one (Idril) survives. Fingon was killed by Gothmog, so Turgon and Gil-Galad are our only possible orc-deaths.
-House Finarfin. Finarfin lived, Finrod got wolf'd, Galadriel lived. Orodreth, Angrod and Aegnor all died in battle, so may be orc-deaths 3-5. Finduilas was orc'd as number 6.
-House Thingol. Elu was killed by dwarves, Luthien died of old age, Dior, Nimloth, Elured and Elurin were kinslain. Elros died of old age, and Celebrian (technically of House Finarfin, but whatever) didn't die.
-The nobles of Gondolin. Running down the list of the Houses, I find eight lords not already mentioned. Two (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) got balrogged. I find Duilin, Penlod and Rog dying in battle (so that's 9), Salgant being a coward (let's make him 10), Galdor apparently survived (!), and Elgamoth died in the Third Kinslaying.
-The only other elves I can think of who died (not counting Arwen, or movie!Haldir) are Amros (lost at sea), Celebrimbor (tortured to death by Sauron, so maybe orcs), and Oropher (Last Alliance, so orcs).
So that makes twelve: Turgon, Gil-Galad, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor, Finduilas, Duilin, Penlod, Rog, Salgant, Celebrimbor, Oropher.
Twelve elves in the entire named corpus were killed by orcs. Ten of those were in major battles: the Dagor Bragollach, the Fall of Gondolin, and the War of the Last Alliance. The other two died after being captured in the fall of their cities - Nargothrond and Eregion.
Oh, and of those twelve, only three - Turgon, Orodreth, and Oropher - were survived by known children (and Orodreth only barely, unless you accept Gil-Galad as his son).
So... in answer to your question? Not a whole lot of elves are known to have parents killed by orcs. ;)
hS -
Well, okay, if you're gonna get all specific... by
on 2013-11-14 15:56:00 UTC
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Hm, I was gonna argue about Celebrían (the first one who came to my mind when I was thinking of orc-deaths earlier), but I guess technically fading and going over the Sea isn't dying. All right.
But, if we're going to be specific, let's look at instances of random once-off ambushes of named elves by orcs outside big battles. We now have two examples, right, Celebrían and Tauriel's parents? So, of our sample set, we've got one third that technically survived and two thirds that died, giving us a whopping 66% death rate for random orc ambushes. The statistics aren't looking so hot now, are they? ^_~
~Neshomeh is bad at this game, but oh well! -
Sure, let's do that. ^_^ by
on 2013-11-14 17:04:00 UTC
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I think there might be a few more than two examples, though...
1/ Celebrian. Didn't die.
2/ Tauriel's parents (sure, because they're canon, right?). Apparently died.
3/ The ambush on the exiles of Gondolin in the High Pass. Total death count: 1, to Glorfindel, by a balrog.
4/ I'm really tempted to count both the Dagor-nuin-Giliath and Dagor Aglareb, which are both 'Morgoth sucks at sending enough troops', but I'll be nice.
5/ The treacherous truce where Maedhros was captured. The only named character survived.
6/ The capture of Finrod and Beren by Sauron's troops. No-one killed by orcs.
7/ The orc raiding party outside Lorien when the Fellowship arrives. No named casualties.
8/ Every single encounter of the Fellowship with orcs. Legolas survived every one.
9/ The death of Beleg Cuthalion while rescuing Turin the Betrayer from orcs. Orcs didn't get him, either.
10/ Hmm... you know, that might be it. I can't think of any 'elves versus orcs' encounters in The Hobbit/LotR we haven't covered... and I can't think of any other ambush-type scenarios in the Silm. Did Aredhel meet orcs? Maybe, but I'm guessing it was just spiders (which didn't kill her, just to clarify).
Oh, we also have:
11/ Glaurung's little breakout during the Siege of Angband. He may well have had orcs with him. No elven losses.
12/ Morgoth's attack on Hithlum, also during the Siege. No noted losses, and since it's not one of the Battles of Beleriand, I think it counts.
What were you saying about 66%? I think at most the above is 10% - I'd say probably a lot less, but there's a couple where there may be mentioned-but-unnamed deaths.
Also: this isn't Beleriand, where orcs were rife. It's not even the Misty Mountains. Mirkwood's main problem is spiders, not orcs and goblins. They'd have to cross the entire forest to reach the Woodland Realm.
Heck, in the movie timeline, there were no enemies in Mirkwood until the attack on Rhosgobel. So how did Tauriel's parents manage to get themselves killed? Were they off hiking through Moria or something?
hS -
Well, gee whiz. by
on 2013-11-14 19:59:00 UTC
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And here I'd been thinking all this time that the forces of evil were dangerous. I stand corrected! Woe is Tauriel, for her folks surely bit it in a cruel and unusual twist of fate indeed if their foe was so enervated.
Or possibly it just makes them look stupid, I'm not really sure anymore. I've been blinded with science!
{X D
~Neshomeh -
Feh, 'dangerous'. by
on 2013-11-14 22:08:00 UTC
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C'mon, the Eldar had a thing where they would actually accept the surrender of any orc that offered it. None ever did, but the option was there.
In all seriousness (well, as serious as can be when discussing fiction): orcs are dangerous. But for most of the history of Middle-earth, they were dangerous in the same way that any enemy combatant was: you didn't want to fall into their hands, but there were front lines. Sure, you might get unlucky and stumble into a raid, but in general, 'home' was safe.
The main exception to this is the parts of the Second and Third Ages when Sauron wasn't around. That was when the orcs, for want of a better term, went feral: they hid in the mountains and occasionally scuffled with the dwarves. So that's less World War 2, and more guerilla soldiers (with a side order of cannibalism). Again, very bad news if you run into them - but they weren't exactly lurking in every alleyway.
Remember, orcs can't stand daylight. That's true right down to the War of the Ring. They really were just a mountain hazard, like, I dunno, rock giants? It's only under a Dark Lord that they became particularly mobile. The only orc war that wasn't under Morgoth or Sauron's direct control is the Dwarf-Goblin war - which, well, took place underground.
Could they have infested Mirkwood? In theory, yes - The Hobbit makes it clear that it was dark enough. Did they infest Mirkwood? The corpus says no.
So, Tauriel's parents? Unless they were with the Last Alliance, they would have had to hike to the Misty or Grey Mountains to get killed by orcs. It's not a very common fate.
(The time when it would have been common was after Unnumbered Tears - when Beleriand was overrun. But then, guess what? The Nandor took to the trees, and the rest of the Free People, once their various realms fell, fled to an island. They didn't just stick around in orc territory)
hS -
Your facts are ruining my nerdrage. {= P by
on 2013-11-15 16:44:00 UTC
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But yeah, I understand what you're saying. Orcs really aren't all that bad unless there are a great many of them being directed by something smarter and more evil than they are, and it would be fairly odd for a couple of even marginally competent elves to be taken down by a random handful of them.
I still think it sounds like a contrived excuse for Tauriel being extra-specially passionate about fighting forTruth, Justice, and the American Waythe destruction of evil, though, especially with her apparently being a contrived excuse for extra Legolas plot already. Not only does she have to exist in the first place, she has to have an angsty backstory that makes her superior in passion and warrior-ness to everyone around her (assuming the rest of Mirkwood's population are less interested in fighting evil, more interested in drinking wine, partying, and being jerks to any passing Dwarves), and there's something between her and Legolas. Orc-murders being vanishingly rare instead of common doesn't really help her case.
~Neshomeh -
Tell you what, I've got a cunning plan. by
on 2013-11-15 17:00:00 UTC
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How about we all wait a month or so, watch the film, and then decide whether Tauriel is a Sue or just an OFC?
And also, we can find out why there's someone roaming around Lake Town who looks exactly like Will Turner. Because that's really baffling me.
hS
PS: That... does seem to describe the population of Mirkwood, you know. Only you forgot to mention the moose-races. -
On Will-Turner-Lookalike!Bard. by
on 2013-11-16 08:06:00 UTC
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I remember when the first DoS trailer came out, there was a lot of discussion on forums about Bard looking like Will Turner. He's going to attract lots of fangirls, as far as I could tell, and I think the fact that he's played by Luke Evans already excited them.
However, I think they're going to include Bain son of Bard in the Movie, as well as two daughters that were never mentioned anywhere in the book. I don't think this is going to reduce the number of OC/Bard fics the Movie's going to spawn vastly, 'cause we all know how ignorant Suethors are...
~Autumn -
*nodnod* by
on 2013-11-15 18:49:00 UTC
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Like I said earlier, how she comes across onscreen will make or break her. But hey, maybe if I decide I hate her right now and then she turns out okay after all, I can get a pleasant surprise instead of more disappointment! {= D
Yeah, I noticed that guy, too. O.o He's... supposed to be Bard, I guess?
Ah, how silly of me! How could I forget Mirkwood's other national past-time like that? {X D
~Neshomeh -
What I learned today. by
on 2013-11-14 21:21:00 UTC
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Note that this is from the perspective of someone who has read the Hobbit and seen the movies as sources of canon for Arda. Oh, and osmosis through the PPC.
Holy cow, Elves can die of old age! I knew this was true of the Elder Scrolls, D&D, and every other fantasy world, but not in Middle Earth. I thought they were immortal as long as they didn't get killed. Or die of grief. For some reason. Sure, only, like, 5 reached that ripe old age, but it is possible!
Elves are oh so much better then humans! Praise our long lived, pointy-eared superiors, for while twenty orcs can decimate an entire village of humans, it takes hundreds to take out a single elf! Well, this is based off of statistics given, but still.
...By Eru, the Elvish hierarchy is complicated. I don't even think it's based off of culture per-se, but, and I am guessing here, how close they were to the Valar? This is either through blood, physical location, or following their ways? I am sure the Tolkien enthusiasts are twitching, as I am sure it is all wrong.
Well, that was... interesting. I feel like there is so much history here that I cannot even begin to grasp without a lot of time reading and studying the details about this fictional world. I'll give Mr. Tolkien this much: he is the single greatest world builder I have ever seen.
And now a question for the Tolkien enthusiasts. I am a fan of the Elder Scrolls seres of video games, and as it is a fantasy seres, it borrows several ideas from Tolkien. However, the Altmer, or High Elves, are said to be the closest to the elves we see in the Lord of the Rings. There is a seres of lore following the Altmer, that is so in-depth that someone who has never touched any of the Elder Scrolls games should be able to follow it. My question is: How close are the Mer of the Elder Scrolls to the Elves of LotR? -
A comparison. by
on 2013-11-15 16:33:00 UTC
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In the form of irreverent summaries of each mythos:
ALTMER
In the beginning God created lesser gods, who created their own lesser gods. One of these last was basically Loki, and he persuaded the gods to make the world for them to live in. But, being Loki, this was a trick to make them all separate beings and mortal. This is called the Sundering.
The sun and the stars were created by gods fleeing the world and tearing holes in reality. Some of the gods sacrificed themselves to become the laws of nature. The others invented boinking and became the ancestors of the Altmer. Then Loki invented humans to be a malleable army for him.
The oldest of the gods talked to God and asked to come back, but there was no ‘back’ to go to, because it had been made into the world. This was a very bad thing. So instead God gave him weapons and told him to stop everyone killing the Altmer (since there were at least two splinter groups by this time).
Loki’s armies conquered all the Altmer lands, destroying them in the process, but then an Altmari champion killed Loki and cut his heart out. The heart was shot into the sea, men outnumbered elves, and the stage was set.
The oldest god finally found away to escape, and promptly did, apparently to show the way to all the Altmer after. The elves really wanted to go back to the (destroyed?) continent(?) of Aldmeris, but, uh, couldn’t find it.
The Altmer underwent speciation (apparently with some help from a few gods) and built themselves a society. Their cities are individual states led by petty kings, intermarrying and so on, all under the nominal rule of one High King in Alinor on the Summerset Isles. They have a three-class system, with the lowest level being made up of, um, goblins, for some reason.
Altmer live for about a thousand years. They are very formal and, well, stuck-up, and apparently have species-wide Asperger’s, because they can’t read facial expressions at all. They have a Standard Fantasy Religion, like mucking about with art, and are magic.
ELDAR
In the beginning God created the lesser gods, one of whom was basically Satan. God got all the gods to sing together (seriously); Satan tried to ruin the song, so God had to introduce new themes to counter him. When the song finished, God revealed that their song had actually created a model of the entire history of the world - a world which he then created. The lesser gods went down and started to work on making the world like they’d seen it would be.
To light the world, they first built a couple of gigantic oil lamps, but Satan knocked them down and destroyed the gods’ first home. Then they moved to a new continent - Valinor - and planted two Trees of light. Satan stayed behind on the old continent.
A fair while later, God created the Eldar and placed them on the old continent. The lesser gods discovered them and invited them to come to Valinor. Some refused, most began the march west. At the same time, the gods declared war on Satan, captured him, wrecked his stuff, and dragged him back to lock him up.
Eventually, most of the Eldar reached Valinor, although a fair bunch had dropped out on the way. They were all very happy in the light of the Trees until Satan was paroled: he promptly killed the trees and fled back to his old base.
Because of drama, a bunch of the Eldar followed Satan. The gods told them not to go, then banished them when they refused to listen. Meanwhile, the gods made the sun and moon from the last fruit and flower of the Two Trees.
When the sun first rose, God created men, also down on the old continent. Meanwhile the Eldar were setting up shop in the old lands to fight Satan (and to meet some of their kin who’d never reached Valinor). They basically fought for hundreds of years, meeting humankind along the way (and allying with them), before they lost miserably.
The gods showed up again - with an army of Eldar who’d never left Valinor - and took Satan prisoner again, then shoved him out of the world entirely because they were fed up with him. At that point, most of the Eldar sailed back to Valinor, and the world slowly became the domain of men.
The Eldar live basically forever, and, yeah, are a bit stuck-up. They have no real religion (because they lived alongside the gods for ages, you know), are fond of art, and have… a sort of magic, but not one most people recognise as such. Politically, they have a High King and petty sub-kings and other rulers, but due to the geography of the places they’ve lived, the High Kingship is pretty ceremonial. By the time of The Hobbit/LotR, there are basically four Elven domains left: Lord Elrond in Rivendell, Cirdan the Shipwright in the Grey Havens, Celeborn and Galadriel in Lorien, and Thranduil in Mirkwood. Thranduil is the only one who calls himself a king.
So basically, in terms of their mythology? Other than the world being created and there being a bad god, there's not a lot of similarities. In terms of social and cultural stuff, which I haven't covered in as much detail... well, the Altmer look like fairly Generic Fantasy Elves. A lot of the stuff that gets stuck on those comes from Tolkien originally. So the fact that they're monarchist - stuck-up - long-lived - artsy-magicky - fond of trees - associated with the sea... that's adapted from Tolkien.
hS -
What Autumn_68 has learnt so far. by
on 2013-11-15 10:35:00 UTC
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I have learnt that not a whole lot of elves are known to have parents killed by orcs. However, some of them do get killed in rather creative and different ways...
Secondly, the death rate for random orc ambushes is at most, 10%.
Thirdly,
Vanyar (live in central Valinor with the Valar) > remnant Noldor (stayed behind in Valinor and never followed Feanor) > Finarfin's Noldor (turned back to Valinor before fully leaving the Undying Lands) > Valinorian Teleri (live outside Valinor proper, but in the Undying Lands, never left) > Returned Noldor (now living on the Lonely Isle in the vicinity of Valinor) > Exilic Noldor (followed Feanor, but were Caliquendi, after all) > Sindar (the Grey-elves, obviously better than the Nandor, because of Elwe/Elu) > Nandor (Wood-elves in general - totally dark) > Avari (who never left Cuivienen, so basically the darkest of the dark)
The Avari never leaving Lake Cuivienen is a relatively new piece of information to me. I always thought the Silvan were part of the Avari.
And lastly, Tauriel's parents were most probably hiking through Moria when they were killed.
A few questions still stand unanswered. Eg. Will Thranduil look down at Tauriel as a lowly Silvan Elf? Will Tauriel be a 'Sue? What really happened to Tauriel's parents?
December 13th, everyone! The Hobbit:Peter Jackson's Very Own 'Suefic!Desolation of Samug!
~Autumn -
Learning is fun! by
on 2013-11-14 22:20:00 UTC
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Dying of old age isn't really a thing for Elves. The oldest one we know of is Cirdan, and he just grew a beard ;). Luthien and Arwen both died of old age, true (which I think I referenced), but they were mortal at the time because reasons.
(Tolkien's actual view on what happened as the Eldar grew very very old is that their physical bodies would fade away entirely before the flame of their spirits. We don't talk about it much. ;))
Elves are totally better than humans :D. But yeah, the trick here is that I've been discussing named elves. Hithlum, Gondolin, Nargothrond, and Eregion - to name but a few - all fell to armies of orcs. They were often backed up by balrogs, dragons, or both, but the bulk of those armies were orcs.
The Eldarin 'hierarchy' Nesh and I referred to isn't a formal thing; it's basically constructed on, yes, closeness to the Valar. It's essentially in two parts: how close they got to the Two Trees when they were still alive, and how much they did what the Valar said after the Trees were killed. So the Noldor, for instance, all saw the Trees in flower. I split them into four: those who never disobeyed the Valar, those who left but came back before the final banishment, those who left entirely but returned at the end of the First Age, and those - like Galadriel (and in fact, at that point in time, pretty much only Galadriel) - who didn't go back until after the Third Age ended. Like I say, it's less of a heirarchy, more of a 'who thinks who is a rustic' thing.
I will try and look at the Altmer thing tomorrow; it sounds like a comparison could be interesting. But not tonight - I have NaNo to do!
hS -
I'm not sure if it's legitimate... by
on 2013-11-13 21:35:00 UTC
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...but there has been a gifset going around Tumblr taken from a scene in which she confronts Thranduil about how he would not consent to seeing his son with "a lowly Sylvan elf."
I know I'm going to see it anyway, but this time I'm resigned to a disaster ahead of time. -
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but... by
on 2013-11-13 22:27:00 UTC
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Aren't Legolas and Thranduil themselves Sylvan?
-
Sort of. by
on 2013-11-14 00:17:00 UTC
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But, first of all, the actual spelling is "Silvan." So that's strike one against this thing.
The Silvan elves, or Wood-elves, are the people of Mirkwood ruled by Thranduil. However, Thranduil himself is one of the Sindar (Grey-elves). The difference is that the Silvan elves started on the journey to Valinor with the Eldar, but didn't actually cross the Sea; and the Silvan elves never even tried.
As elves go, the Wood-elves aren't as high and mighty as they Grey-elves, who aren't as high and mighty as the Noldor (who actually did get to Valinor but came back to fight Morgoth), who aren't as high and mighty as the Vanyar (who got to Valinor and stayed there).
However, there's nothing to suggest Thranduil would look down on his adopted people, and—this is the kicker for me—I don't think we know anything about Legolas' mother. For all we know, Thranduil mingled his line with one of Silvan blood (which would be convenient for cementing his rulership), which most likely happened plenty among his subjects either way. As we keep reminding the Suethors, barring a very few exceptions involving people who were known to be corrupted by evil, Elves marry for love, period. Status has very little to do with it. Look at Celeborn and Galadriel, for instance. Celeborn is to Galadriel as a Silvan elf would be to Thranduil, and they manage just fine.
Now I'm going to go make dinner and wait for hS to come along and correct any mistakes or oversimplifications I made here. ^_~
~Neshomeh -
You have such faith in me. ;) by
on 2013-11-14 08:08:00 UTC
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Actually that's a good summary of the situation. I'll just offer the footnoted version:
The difference is that the Silvan elves started on the journey to Valinor with the Eldar, but didn't actually cross the Sea; and the Silvan elves never even tried.
I think you were going for 'Sindarin' in the first instance, there. Actually both groups went a bloomin' long way on the Great March - we never in the entire history of Middle-earth meet any of the Avari who didn't leave the Waters of Awakening (Cuivienen) at all. Tolkien once wrote the word for 'elf' in six of their languages, and... that's all we know. Well, he also theorised that they might have been the first orcs - but he also theorised that about humans and animals, so that one's way up in the air.
Anyway, the difference between the Silvan folk and the Sindar is that they broke off the journey at different times. The Silvan... okay, look, 'Silvan' is English, and bothers me; I'm going to start using 'Nandor', which is one possible identity of their group. Okay? Okay. The Nandor saw the Misty Mountains and decided they were impassable, so they stayed in what would later be Mirkwood and Lothlorien. The Sindar reached the sea in Beleriand (late - both of these groups are part of the largest Third Tribe, the Teleri, and were a lot slower in the journey than the Vanyar or the Noldor), but then their king, one Elwe, went missing. The remaining Teleri split into two groups - one which crossed the sea to Valinor, under Elwe's brother Olwe (or Olue in the Telerin dialect), and one which stayed in Middle-earth to look for Elwe.
They eventually found him, and his new Maia wife Melian, and stayed in Beleriand as the Sindar.
As elves go, the Wood-elves aren't as high and mighty as they Grey-elves, who aren't as high and mighty as the Noldor (who actually did get to Valinor but came back to fight Morgoth), who aren't as high and mighty as the Vanyar (who got to Valinor and stayed there).
The Noldor split the elves into two groups 'Light Elves' and 'Dark Elves'. Light Elves, or Caliquendi, are those who travelled to Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees. Dark Elves, Moriquendi, are those who didn't. (No moral connotations to the term, by the way!)
But the Sindar are in a tricky position. Their king was one of the three taken to Valinor to prove it exists, so he's definitely in the Caliquendi. His people are Moriquendi - except they have a demigoddess as their queen. So they were dubbed the Sindar - the Grey-elves, the elves of the twilight.
(They may actually have given themselves this name, but Noldorin arrogance makes for a better story. ;))
Neshomeh's hierarchy is pretty good. The full version, as seen from an Exilic Noldorin point of view (let's say Galadriel during the Third Age), probably goes like this:
Vanyar (live in central Valinor with the Valar) > remnant Noldor (stayed behind in Valinor and never followed Feanor) > Finarfin's Noldor (turned back to Valinor before fully leaving the Undying Lands) > Valinorian Teleri (live outside Valinor proper, but in the Undying Lands, never left) > Returned Noldor (now living on the Lonely Isle in the vicinity of Valinor) > Exilic Noldor (followed Feanor, but were Caliquendi, after all) > Sindar (the Grey-elves, obviously better than the Nandor, because of Elwe/Elu) > Nandor (Wood-elves in general - totally dark) > Avari (who never left Cuivienen, so basically the darkest of the dark).
But the only real manifestation of that was that the Noldor in Beleriand were pretty dismissive towards everyone. By the Third Age, the few who were left had gotten most of it out of their system - and there's no indication that the Sindar ever looked down on anyone. In fact, in the First Battle in Beleriand (way before the Noldor showed up), it was the Laiquendi - those Nandor who had crossed the Misty and Blue Mountains after a wait - who saved the Sindar from destruction. Being prejudiced against their saviours would be extremely petty, wouldn't it?
However, there's nothing to suggest Thranduil would look down on his adopted people, and—this is the kicker for me—I don't think we know anything about Legolas' mother.
This is very true - but we have one piece of information which shines a little light on it. While the names of Thranduil (tharan-duil, 'vigorous spring') and his father Oropher ('tall beech-tree', the first Sindarin King of Mirkwood) are Sindarin, the name Legolas ('green leaf') is not pure Sindarin. That would require the first syllable to be 'laeg', not 'lego'. So apparently he is named in Nandorin.
Also, there's this, from LotR:
'...the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk...'
That's Legolas in Eregion, which was a Noldorin land before it fell. So he thinks of himself as Silvan.
Celeborn is to Galadriel as a Silvan elf would be to Thranduil, and they manage just fine.
Let's not get into the question of who Celeborn is. But my preferred interpretation agrees with this. Of course, Galadriel is a lot less snippish than Thranduil...
hS -
You don't disappoint. {= ) (nm) by
on 2013-11-14 16:07:00 UTC
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I remember the gist now, typos aside. by
on 2013-11-14 04:32:00 UTC
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I only asked to begin with because I thought Thranduil was Silvan for some reason, and it seemed odd to me that Tauriel would be making such accusations to someone who's themselves Silvan. Eh well.
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O.o But... but... by
on 2013-11-13 21:47:00 UTC
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No, I can't. If I try to enumerate the ways in which that is dumb, my head will explode. And that's just what the trolls want.
'Cause it's got to be trolls. Got to. @.o
~Neshomeh -
Hah! Called it. by
on 2013-11-13 10:20:00 UTC
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I've said all along that with a name like 'Forest girl', she had to be a war orphan. And hey, lookit that. ;)
I'm not sure I'd characterise that backstory as leading to 'fighting for truth and for justice', though. Seems more like it would lead to fighting every evil (which is good) in an attempt to find closure, exact revenge, and, yes, ensure no-one else suffers the same fate.
(Who wants to bet the Great WhiteWhaleOrc killed her parents?)
But, as with everything else - it's not the description that makes a Sue, it's the way she acts, and the way others react. If that description is accurate, she could be a terrifying character - one who hunts the enemy as a reason to keep on living, and will ruthlessly discard personal relationships and loyalties to get at the enemy. Or, she could be a Disney Princess who occasionally tries to kill things and has to be rescued by Legolas and refuses to admit her feelings for you've heard this all before.
Who can say? Well, okay, in about a month, us, because the film will be out. ;)
hS -
Oh, well. by
on 2013-11-13 20:15:00 UTC
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I thought with all the being Thranduil's favourite and "Leggy" being all protective over her, she sounded a little like a Sue. Then TheOneRing.net said she was going to Laketown without Thranduil's permission, (Legolas tagging along, of course.) then healing a girl the orcs (?) hurt. And now this...ah well, I guess we have to wait until December 13th and see then.
~Autumn -
I'm keeping an open mind, but I understand people's doubts. by
on 2013-11-13 10:42:00 UTC
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Also, because we were on similar wavelengths:
"All that most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the lees of things; all truth with malice in it; all that cracks the sinews and cakes the brain; all the subtle demonisms of life and thought; all evil, to orphaned Tauriel, were visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Azog the Defiler."
(This also reminds me I haven't read Moby Dick since I was maybe four; I really should find a good copy of that and some other classics once I'm done with The Big Sleep.) -
"Starting to"? :P (nm) by
on 2013-11-13 10:03:00 UTC
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That... by
on 2013-11-13 20:39:00 UTC
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Before this I kept convincing myself Tauriel was not going to be a Sue. I stopped after I saw her angsty backstory. (Not that I'm saying she is a Sue, though. But there is a possibility.)
~Autumn -
I believe... by
on 2013-11-13 00:40:00 UTC
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...they did that on purpose. Peter Jackson read all the badfic and decided to parody it.
The Emperor Protects! -
Oh glod. by
on 2013-11-13 20:42:00 UTC
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I would love to see all the fangirls' faces then.
~Autumn -
If he did that... by
on 2013-11-13 02:14:00 UTC
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Oh man. What if she turns out to be a 'creature born of Morgoth,' or some BS like that, and Legolas himself kills her! Or, even better, if two female Uruk-Hai stepped out of the shadows and killed her for 'crimes against Arda.' Bonus points if they charge her first.
If this happens... The mixed cries of joy and pain would be delicious. Joy for the Sue-Elf being killed by her LO, dismay that Peter Jackson felt the need to screw over the story of the Hobbit for a badfic parody. Then again, Peter could not screw over the Hobbit any more then he already has, so perhaps it would be OK. I mean, if fat-bearded Goblin Kings can make it in, so can Mary Sues.
Yes, I am bitter over how he decided to portray the Hobbit, thanks for asking. -
An excerpt. by
on 2013-11-12 09:44:00 UTC
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Lothiriella was walking in the woods of Rivendale one day at night, her long silver-white gown glittering in the moonlight. She sang with her beautiful voice a lovely song, hoping to raise her spirit with the song:
I sang of butterflies,
Of grass and flowers,
Of sugar and glitter.
But none of these beautiful things,
Can ever compare to the beauty
Of my true love
And then she saw him. The prince, Legaols, was standing there, armed with a bow, looking ever so hawt and delicious. Her battered heart leaped.
Running to glomp him, she cried,"O hott one! You have come at last! You are indeed my true love!"
And then Legaols saw her, and his eyes widened in panic, for he knew she was a Mary-Sue, and that he would drown metaphorically from all her sugar.
Just then, the real Legolas jumped out behind the tree where he had been spying on the Sue, and shot her in the throat. Lothiriella clutched at her throat, as she tripped, and fell flat on her face.
Reaching out an arm, she whispered,"N-n-n-no! Leggy! I-I-I luv u-u!!!!!"
Earning a kick from a very disgusted Legolas, she shuddered and was still. Thus ended the life of Lothiriella, one of the many Sues in Arda.
~Autumn -
I think that's too broad (alternate challenge) by
on 2013-11-12 09:13:00 UTC
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And at the same time too narrow.
Why too narrow? Because why are you limiting it to Mary-Sues? The PPC is about far more than that - we have bad slash, implausible crossovers, improbable AUs, a whole heap of things.
Why too broad? Because there's no guidelines. You've given us a sandbox, not a real challenge.
So, I propose an alternate challenge, to be kept to this sub-thread (so as not to get tangled up with the neun-und-neunzig luftigel version):
Write a badfic, of a specific type of your choice, for every fandom.
I'll demonstrate in my reply, where I will take on... the Mary-Sue.
hS -
Isn't "every fandom" itself super broad? by
on 2013-11-13 09:55:00 UTC
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I mean, I'm in full agreement with the whole sandbox point you made, but there's a shedload of fandoms out there and writing a badfic, however short, for every single one is hardly practical. Sounds fun though. :P
(Also, death to the False Emperor!) -
You misunderstand. by
on 2013-11-13 10:15:00 UTC
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I don't mean write a badfic for each fandom - I mean write a single badfic which is for every (or at least most) fandom. It's rather more tricky.
hS -
Still extremely broad, but sounds interesting. :P by
on 2013-11-13 10:27:00 UTC
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Reminds me of that ultimate showdown flash movie that circulated the internet back in 2005. Or I almost want to say League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, with its literary megacrossover thing.
(USOUD was eight years ago. I feel old.) -
The Generic Mary-Sue by
on 2013-11-12 09:22:00 UTC
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Silvermoon Glitterbug danced across the floor, grinning all around her. Sure, the terrible destruction caused by that unexpected turn of events had doomed them all, but for now, she was alive, and with her friends, and that was all that mattered.
Her most shy and retiring friend - some would say sullen - felt it too, and grinned at her. "Wow, Silvermoon, you are an absolutely brilliant dancer."
"No, silly," Silvermoon beamed, tossing her hair, "I'm brillitastic. It's a word I made up just to describe me."
"Oh, you would," snapped her other friend, and Silvermoon frowned. This, coming from the one who was normally the most cheerful of the group?
"What's the matter?" she asked. "My friend, are you upset?"
"Am I upset?" her friend demanded. "You little slattern, why wouldn't I be?"
Silvermoon cowered, taking shelter behind her aforementioned quiet friend, who promptly took up her cause. "Say what you mean," her friend stated, "or I will be forced to rip your liver out through your fingers and feed it to Silvermoon's vampire pegacorn."
"Oh, she knows what I mean!" Silvermoon's supposed friend scowled. "Of all the people I have slept with (and there have been many), she has stolen the only one I truly cared for!"
"You never cared for them!" Silvermoon exclaimed back. "You only care for yourself!"
Her normally-cheerful friend stopped, frowned, and then burst into tears. "Oh Silvermoon, you're right! I have become so selfish and mean and I didn't mean to!"
And who knows what might have followed, were it not for the sudden entrance of a heavily-armed stranger, who took aim with a lethal-looking weapon and shot one of Silvermoon's friends - the most popular one, the one whose name was known to everyone (or at least everyone important) - stone dead!