I would guess Lilith was described as intersex.

Subject: I would guess Lilith was described as intersex.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2015-08-11 17:01:00 UTC

Well, probably as hermaphroditic, but I put the more acceptable term in the header. ;)

-- actually, Wikipedia says this:

The mystical writing of two brothers Jacob and Isaac Hacohen, which predates the Zohar by a few decades, states that Samael and Lilith are in the shape of an androgynous being, double-faced, born out of the emanation of the Throne of Glory and corresponding in the spiritual realm to Adam and Eve, who were likewise born as a hermaphrodite.

I think 'andro-gynous' (which looks like 'man-woman' to me) once had the meaning of hermaphroditic/intersex, rather than the reverse. So the idea is that the first two people were Lilith and Adam-Eve; when Lilith rebelled, Adam-Eve was split into Adam and Eve.

(Actually, in this case, both 'androgynous' and 'hermaphrodite' appear to mean 'two entire people joined together'... which is something else entirely, of course.)

(Hey, new idea - maybe Kabbalistic texts from the 1200s aren't terribly consistent in themselves? Eh? Who's with me?)

hS

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What's this, a Tolkienverse mission? by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-10 14:28:00 UTC Reply

Yes, indeed it is! There's also a little gimmick I thought I'd try this time around, so see if you can spot it before reading the A/N.

Anyway, as the good book says, "Love Thy Neighbor"!

What's this? I'm confused. by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-08-12 18:37:00 UTC Reply

E.V.L. checked the chapter title. "Lothlórien, apparently. Both this forest and Mirkwood are east of the river Anduin, but Lothlórien is between Anduin and the Misty Mountains, while Mirkwood is further east from the latter."

Is E.V.L. quoting the badfics bad geography, or is this what she genuinely believes to be canon? In the latter case, a part-time agent for the Uncanonical Department of Inaccuracies may want to step in and hit her over the head with either The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings.

While Mirkwood is indeed east of the river Anduin, the Misty Mountains are to the west from this river, certainly not between two forests that are both east of the Anduin. As seen in The Fellowship of the Ring, Lothlórien is between Anduin and the Misty Mountains, east of the mountains and west of the river. Traveling from Mirkwood to Lothlórien, you don't pass through the mountains, but you cross a big river and may need a boat to do so.

"Hang on a sec," said Rayner. "If the Misty Mountains are between Lothlórien and Anduin [...]"
That's not what E.V.L said. Does Rayner confuse Lothlórien with Rivendell?

Also, repetitively paging the Repetitive Department of Repetition:

stroking the the cat’s neck

There’s another another character coming in.
Feratu speaking, but I don't believe that it's intentional.

At least we now that Thranduil been replaced now.
No, I take this back. The first "now" is probably meant to be "know". And may Rayner have omitted a word in this sentence?

If we’re going by the fact that this is takes place before [...].
Did Brenda say this intentionally?

One of the clones walked in on them at that moment, rubbing her head. She screamed at the sight before her, and Feratu reacted instantly. He knocked her down with one blow of his staff, whisked her out of harm’s way, and immediately locked his teeth around her throat. Reaching blindly for his own RA, he tossed it to her.

Feratu tossed the RA to the Helke clone? Why would he do that?

HG

Androgynous, intersex, and hermaphrodite by Calista on 2015-08-13 20:54:00 UTC Reply

Medical perspective here:

Human hermaphrodites simply don't exist in the Real World--or if they do, I've never heard of one existing. A hermaphroditic organism has the equipment for both sexes and can reproduce as either the "mother" or "father". Some hermaphroditic organisms can reproduce with themselves.

What humans can be is intersex--being in-between due to hormones or chromosomes or environment or some combination thereof. If you study prenatal development, basically we all start out with a female configuration, and a male fetus will switch over during development. So, if a female gets some of the "be male" signals, or a male doesn't, the result can be a baby whose gender is hard to determine. They will have ovaries or testes or something in between; their external genitalia can be either type or in between. Some intersex people look very much like a typical member of one gender or the other; some look in-between androgynous. Their gender identity and the people they're attracted to can be anything in the human spectrum.

Barring a hypothetical very rare partly-fused chimera or conjoined twin situation, human hermaphrodites don't exist because humans only get one set of reproductive organs apiece. That means that the only hermaphrodites are in mythology, fiction, porn, and the animal kingdom. Since porn and animals are the most common places for hermaphrodites to be mentioned, it is entirely understandable that intersex people do not want to be called "hermaphrodites", as they're neither sex objects nor less than human.

As for "androgynous", it refers more to the way you present yourself, your identity, or your appearance. I'm mildly androgynous, with both feminine and masculine traits, even though I look quite feminine and have XX chromosomes and don't mind marking "female" on forms if there's no other choice. Other people are much more strongly androgyne or neutrois and feel quite horrible if they are pushed into one gender box or the other. Quite a few deities and mythical creatures are in-between androgynous as well, looking like somewhat feminine teen boys or somewhat masculine teen girls in drawings and statuary; many deities are able to change shape or change gender at will and may be depicted as any gender by various artists. A person's reproductive equipment is rather irrelevant to the term "androgynous".

Thanks for the thorough explanation by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-08-14 13:46:00 UTC Reply

Although I was actually confused by the agents mangling the canon they pretend to protect.

I should have personified the Snowdrop (Galanthus nivalis) again to make this more obvious in the headline.

HG

All fixed! by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-13 05:52:00 UTC Reply

I knew my Tolkienverse knowledge was a little rusty. E.V.L.'s mistake was entirely my fault; I've changed the wording so that Brenda initially guesses about the mountains, but E.V.L. corrects her and brings up the river like you said. (Come to think of it, the Anduin wasn't even mentioned when the Sue got taken to Lothlórien. So the geography charge still stands, just with a different landmark.)

Y'know what, for future LoTR missions, I wonder if anyone better versed in the works of Tolkien could link me to a complete map of Middle-earth for geography reference. Because you never know when you'd run into a slip-up like this.

Ask DOGA? by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-08-13 08:42:00 UTC Reply

I use the maps in my books; I don’t know where to find them online.

HG

Huh what me huh? by Huinesoron on 2015-08-13 09:11:00 UTC Reply

(Man, I remember the days when I was literally synonymous with the Pyro Department...)

Um, finding Middle-earth maps is easy: Google Middle-earth map. One nice one is here on the Encyclopaedia of Arda, but, honestly, it's not that hard.

hS

Good to know. Thanks! (nm) by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-13 14:04:00 UTC Reply

Um, okay, so... by Iximaz on 2015-08-11 16:15:00 UTC Reply

“I’m sure Medical would be able to handle something like this,” said E.V.L. “But still… There is no way such an occurrence would be possible. Unless, like me, this beast somehow exhibits explicit anatomy of the opposite gend—”

She stopped, covering her mouth, but it was too late. Rayner gave her an expression of even greater horror and disgust than he’d done at the mention of the pregnant male elk.

“You’ve got a — got a —” he gasped, pointing at her with a very shaky hand.

She tossed her hair and glared at him. “Well, now you know why I appreciate both genders equally,” she said. “If you want to know the reason for it being there, the Biblical Lilith has been stated to be androgynous by some religious scholars, so my author ran with it. This is between us and us alone, so let us never speak of it again.”

I have a couple of issues with this passage.

1) Speaking from experience, if you've got a secret that you don't want anyone to find out, you don't slip up that easily. Ever. E.V.L. acting all shocked that she 'let that slip' came across as just that to me: an act. It sounds like she just wanted an excuse to say she was intersex.

2) So, what, she's bisexual just because she's intersex? You... do realize that intersex people can be both straight and gay? Being intersex does not make a person bi. If that's not what you meant, you have a really funky way of writing that correlation, because the way it is now, you have it sounding like you can only be bi if you're intersex.

3) Androgynous =/= hermaphrodite. Androgynous refers to outward appearance. For example, most people can't tell I'm female unless I deliberately dress so there's no question. That's androgynous. An intersex person usually (but not always) looks like one or the other, and simply have, ahem, the equipment of both sexes. This is the case with E.V.L., though if you got the idea to make her intersex because you confused androgyny for hermaphroditism (which is just an old word used for the more technically accurate term of intersex), this might not be entirely applicable to her. Not saying she can't be intersex, just that you got your terms mixed up.

-Iximaz, who is androgynous, not intersex, thank you.

I would guess Lilith was described as intersex. by Huinesoron on 2015-08-11 17:01:00 UTC Reply

Well, probably as hermaphroditic, but I put the more acceptable term in the header. ;)

-- actually, Wikipedia says this:

The mystical writing of two brothers Jacob and Isaac Hacohen, which predates the Zohar by a few decades, states that Samael and Lilith are in the shape of an androgynous being, double-faced, born out of the emanation of the Throne of Glory and corresponding in the spiritual realm to Adam and Eve, who were likewise born as a hermaphrodite.

I think 'andro-gynous' (which looks like 'man-woman' to me) once had the meaning of hermaphroditic/intersex, rather than the reverse. So the idea is that the first two people were Lilith and Adam-Eve; when Lilith rebelled, Adam-Eve was split into Adam and Eve.

(Actually, in this case, both 'androgynous' and 'hermaphrodite' appear to mean 'two entire people joined together'... which is something else entirely, of course.)

(Hey, new idea - maybe Kabbalistic texts from the 1200s aren't terribly consistent in themselves? Eh? Who's with me?)

hS

Yeah, the way she's described in Wikipedia... by Iximaz on 2015-08-11 17:26:00 UTC Reply

Is as intersex. Yes, androgynous once meant the same thing, but the meaning's shifted quite a bit over the years. The article should have clarified on that, but Skarm should have done a bit more research on the topic.

Wait, are we assuming he used Wikipedia? Um.

But yeah, for sensitive topics like this, you really ought to double-check with people so you don't end up offending anyone.

(And it would not surprise me if they weren't exactly internally consistent. It's been known to happen.)

I've edited the passage in question. ^^; by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-11 19:28:00 UTC Reply

“I’m sure Medical would be able to handle something like this,” said E.V.L. “But still… There is no way such an occurrence would be possible.”
“So, how do you get a male elk pregnant?” asked Feratu.
“The same way I tried to get Link pregnant in the LoZ bad slash fic I once starred in,” E.V.L. replied with a grim look. “Just stick it in and enjoy the show.”
“But how?” asked Brenda. “You’re a girl!”
Rayner turned slightly pale. “I’ve seen visions of you in my thoughts, dreams, visions maybe... So you’re telling me, uh, us... that you weren’t, in fact, wearing a strapon?”
She tossed her hair and glared at him. “Unfortunately, yes,” she said. “I once possessed a male canon, and suffice it to say that it left a lasting impression. This is between us and us alone, so let us never speak of it again.”

Notice that the terms discussed here are not mentioned even once. I also changed the wording to imply that Rayner suspected that E.V.L. had some extra plumbing, but didn’t think it was genuine.

In hindsight, it was my mistake to use Wikipedia and a quick Google search as an attempt at verification, and I apologize for wording the original version in a manner that may sound offensive to some. E.V.L. having, well, those bits was an idea I've had for years, but couldn't really define the specifics for until now. I personally think it's for the better that instead of any theological topics, she'd have obtained it by possessing a guy, with a less than desirable outcome. Kinda like what happened to Cadmar, but in reverse.

Uh, dude by Desdendelle on 2015-08-11 19:34:00 UTC Reply

Dude, that's NSFW. Very NSFW. First of all, the Board is supposed to be family- and kiddie-friendly, so optimally you don't post such things at all. If you must (and I doubt that) mark your post as NSFW.

Related to that: this passage makes your mission NC-17. At least. So please mark it accordingly.

Whoops, thanks! D: (NSFW) by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-11 20:11:00 UTC Reply

Lesson learned, and advisory warning added. Also because, well, the Sue actually asks about, uh, choice topics at least once.

Any chance of you sticking NSFW tags in? Maybe? (nm) by Scapegrace on 2015-08-11 19:31:00 UTC Reply

Ah, terminology. by Calista on 2015-08-11 18:09:00 UTC Reply

Getting out my biology and human sexuality classes info...

Terminology guide for sci-fi, fantasy, and non-human gender and sexual orientation:

Hermaphrodite: An organism with the sexual organs of both genders. Usually refers to entire species, and refers to the typical state of affairs within these species. Hermaphroditic organisms may or may not be able to reproduce on their own, but when engaging in sexual reproduction they are able to either impregnate or be impregnated. Use this word for non-human species that fit this description. Most Flowers are hermaphrodites. Gender and sexual orientation may or may not be meaningless to hermaphroditic species; some adopt gender labels out of convenience or preference. Sequential hermaphrodites, which switch from one biological sex to the other during their lifetimes, may or may not switch from one gender identity to the other as well.

Intersex: An atypical condition found in species with two or more genders; refers to those individuals which cannot easily be categorized, physically, as one gender or the other. May be attracted to either gender, both, all, or none; may have any gender identity. Ex: Intersexed person, gender identity male, attracted to females, would be heterosexual; if gender identity is female, then homosexual.

Asexual (Biology): The condition of having no gender. Refers to entire species; for example, amoebas. May reproduce by fission, spores, etc. Gender identity and sexual orientation are probably meaningless to these species; some adopt gender labels out of convenience or preference. Since they do not reproduce sexually, these creatures may not have a sexual orientation, or may be asexual in terms of sexual orientation.

Asexual (Orientation): A sexual orientation found among species which reproduce sexually; lack of sexual attraction to all genders. Asexual individuals can identify as any gender or none at all. They may desire platonic romance and have gender preferences for partners, or not desire platonic romance at all. Most biologically asexual creatures can be described as asexual in orientation as well, though their species probably does not have a distinct concept of "asexual" unless they have been in contact with species which are not biologically asexual.

Bisexual: An individual, usually from a species which has genders, attracted to two of those genders. In species with three or more genders, "trisexual", etc., may be an appropriate category (but must be differentiated from the old "I'm trisexual; I'll try anything once" joke).

Pansexual: An individual attracted to other individuals regardless of gender. Different from bisexual in that it encompasses those who do not fit into the two genders that bisexual people are attracted to. Will still have preferences regarding age, personality, species, etc.

Homosexual/Heterosexual: Attracted to one's own/the opposite gender. This designation can only apply to people who have a gender identity, and usually in the context of a species with two main gender categories.

Androsexual; Androphilic: Attracted to males. Different from "Straight female" or "Gay male" in that it can be used to describe those who are neither female nor male, or are both.

Gynosexual; Gynophilic: Attracted to females; useful for describing those who are neither/both female and/nor male.

Agender; nongender; gender-neutral; androgynous: Some of the many words used to describe people who identify as having no gender. Applies to most creatures who are biologically asexual and many who are hermaphroditic, as well as some individuals from species with sexes. May be attracted to one or more genders, all, or none.

Genderqueer: As a general term, non-binary people in a species with a binary (or trinary, etc.) gender divide. May be attracted to one or more genders, all, or none. As a specific term, unlike agender (etc.) individuals, genderqueer individuals may identify as one gender or another at different times during their lifetime, switching genders. Sequential hermaphrodites may or may not be described as genderqueer.

Transgender: Someone with a biological sex that does not match their gender identity. Both the biological sex and the gender identity can be anything, including neutrois (physically non-gendered), as well as the binary (trinary, etc.) genders. Use their gender identity to describe their sexual orientation; for example, someone with a female gender identity, attracted to females, is homosexual even if their biological sex is male. Depending on the species, this may be a very typical condition or a very unusual one.

Xenosexual: Someone attracted to those from a different species from their own. Generally unusual, but some species are xenosexual by default (cf. Mass Effect Asari). Usually also has preferences regarding gender, age, etc., and may be attracted to one species, some, or all. Assumes sapient (able to consent) species only.

That's very interesting. by the Irish Samurai on 2015-08-15 22:35:00 UTC Reply

I'm currently in the brainstorming/note-making stage of creating an original sci-fi setting, and I want the aliens to have significant biological difference to humans (as well as cultural ones etc.). I had considered some of the alien species having more than just male/female sexes, but haven't really thought it through yet.

Seeing the explanation of all these terms has given me some new ideas to think about. So, yeah, thanks for the info.

- Irish

Additionally: by Scapegrace on 2015-08-11 17:55:00 UTC Reply

While my interactions with the intersex community are limited, one commonality between them is that they find the term "hermaphrodite" hideously offensive. JSYK.

Was that directed at me or Skarmory? by Huinesoron on 2015-08-11 19:05:00 UTC Reply

Because I was using it to describe Lilith, since it's the term that was used. And Skarmory didn't use it at all? So, uh, yeah: just so who knows?

hS

Merely pointing it out. by Scapegrace on 2015-08-11 19:23:00 UTC Reply

There's bound to be someone around here who's intersex, and it's never a good idea to use triggering language even in non-triggering contexts. This is why I haven't subjected you all to FaCe ThE StRaNgE yet: the plot revolves around the Sue and her entourage attempting to KTFD, or Kill The (word I have no intention of repeating) Dumbledore.

There is. by Voyd on 2015-08-14 01:27:00 UTC Reply

And they mentioned it back during the gay marriage discussion.

Not so sure about that. by Iximaz on 2015-08-14 02:56:00 UTC Reply

If you're talking about VM, they mentioned they're neither male nor female, which could mean any number of things.

They specifically said "I am intersex." (nm) by Voyd on 2015-08-14 03:54:00 UTC Reply

Alright then, my mistake. (nm) by Iximaz on 2015-08-14 04:42:00 UTC Reply

Yup, It implies they're animals. by Calista on 2015-08-11 18:13:00 UTC Reply

The only true hermaphrodites we know of are non-humans, and non-sentient non-humans at that. Calling someone a "hermaphrodite" is about as bad as accusing them of not being a sentient person on the same level as a slug, and as such, is very skeevy and to be avoided.

Yay, Brenda appears! by eatpraylove on 2015-08-11 04:35:00 UTC Reply

And she has a personality! I loved the scene with her cooing over the mini-Balrog :) (And the LEGO pun. Because LEGO. Yes.)

Some things:
Indeed, a chill breeze was causing the leaves to rustle, and a sizeable number of ¶ symbols was being blown along with it.
This doesn't flow well. Try something like "Indeed, a cold breeze blew through the trees around them, carrying a sizable number of ¶ symbols with it."

hair shaped like a Disney Princess
I assume you mean styled? Cause that's a weird mental image right there. (Also, do the clones each have a different princess' hair style or are they all ripping off Elsa's braid?)

Once the horse had been sent to the stables of Rohan, the agents and the mini followed after Legolas and the Sue until they reached the kings chamber, a stray apostrophe following after them.
Also a bit wordy. Try this: "After portaling the horses to a stable in Rohan, the agents trailed Legolas and the Sue to the kings chamber. mirkwood forest grabbed a stray apostrophe with his whip."

"...Unless, like me, this beast somehow exhibits explicit anatomy of the opposite gend—”
She stopped, covering her mouth, but it was too late."
I doubt a demon (devil?) would be so clinical about a hermaphrodite Irish elk/moose. Just putting that out there.

More tomorrow, I need sleep.

Re: Yay, Brenda appears! by Tira on 2015-08-11 04:48:00 UTC Reply

hair shaped like a Disney Princess
I assume you mean styled? Cause that's a weird mental image right there. (Also, do the clones each have a different princess' hair style or are they all ripping off Elsa's braid?)

The sense I got from the story was that the Sue had "Snow White hair," which manifested as hair literally shaped like Snow White.

That's not what I meant. (nm) by eatpraylove on 2015-08-11 15:55:00 UTC Reply

Oh? by Tira on 2015-08-11 17:14:00 UTC Reply

What did you mean, then? I'm a little confused, sorry.

My mistake. by eatpraylove on 2015-08-12 15:08:00 UTC Reply

I assumed that SS meant to say "hair styled like a Disney Princess" as opposed to "shaped like a Disney Princess". He didn't put that line in bold, so he wasn't quoting right from the badfic.

SS, confirm/deny your intentions?

Well, the fic did say "Snow White hair". by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-13 05:53:00 UTC Reply

Several of my betas assumed it would be shaped exactly Snow White in her entirety, which was funnier than just using her hairstyle. So the "shaped" thing was indeed intentional.