What about logic-error type plot holes?

I'm confused about something. by Silenthunder on 2015-07-14 15:35:00 UTC Reply

I'm still editing my first mission after the list of what needed to be fixed was presented. But there's at least one thing on that list I don't understand. As it was written:

"the agents falling through plotholes and time warps is a bit odd — generally, agents are dragged along by the story. The plotholes especially is a little odd. Falling through a time warp sounds fine to at least one of us as a spin-off-specific thing (assuming there was, in fact, a time warp/distortion there)."

I don't understand the problem with them falling through plot holes, because in a few stories I've seen instances where an agent would fall through a plot hole. I can't remember which exact ones, but I do remember reading that this happened.

Also, since there was a concern on this:

"time compression ran rampant on the agents' end. They slept, what, three times in this? We didn't get the sense they were in the fic for very long."

…does anyone have any tips on how to combat this, and get out of the Talking Head Syndrome? Tips to give them more to do, and how to make that smooth?

Some thoughts. by Huinesoron on 2015-07-14 16:01:00 UTC Reply

A plothole is... well, a hole in the plot! Sometimes they're literal holes, which missing characters fall down. Sometimes they're temporal distortions ('time warps'), such as a story which suggests you can fly from Coruscant to Tatooine in five minutes. Sometimes they're geographical aberrations, such as the ever-popular magical forest which shouldn't exist, or a spatial distortion (which is just a different way of naming a temporal distortion - indeed, I usually go for 'temporal-spatial'). Sometimes they're less physical: a Suvian with hair made of literal fire is clearly using a plothole to keep from, uh, burning, but that doesn't mean there's a literal hole somewhere.

What they aren't is a manifestation of a scene change, which I guess is what you were using them as. Scene-changes aren't holes/problems with the plot - they're a natural part of writing. Very few stories don't have any skips at all.

PPC agents usually move along through the story by one of... three or four methods.

1/ They have to travel everywhere on foot. So if the fic says 'ten days later', the agents follow the characters for ten days.

2/ They get dragged through scene changes. 'Ten days later' throws them forward ten days.

3/ They portal to avoid (1).

4/ When the story produces a temporal-spatial distortion, they hitch a ride on it. So if the Fellowship claims to reach Moria in a day from Rivendell, the agents follow closely in order to ride on that effect, rather than walking the actual distance.

(4) is the only one that can really be called 'falling through a plothole', and from your/their description, I don't think that's what you were doing.

Does that help?

hS

What about logic-error type plot holes? by Calista on 2015-07-14 16:20:00 UTC Reply

Not all plot holes are temporal-spatial distortions, of course.

I remember in the Original Series, after the assassination of Arwen!Sue, the real one was found in a plot hole in Elrond's liquor cabinet; the plot hole, of course, is that Elrond is not in fact a raging drunk.

Plot holes happen through logical inconsistencies, either between the canon and the fic, within the fic itself, or--occasionally--naturally in the canon (stable, canonical plot holes? Hmm.)

And of course the portal generator works on plot hole technology, with the plot holes made visible for safety and convenience's sake. A natural plot hole looks more like a heat shimmer or a minor distortion.

The impression I get is that most plot holes don't lead much of anywhere. Most seem to produce a small pocket universe. Some lead to the opposite end of a time or space anomaly. Most may be small and unremarkable enough to be unusable for travel. And it's likely that minis arrive through plot holes of their own, created by their misspellings--unstable plot holes that collapse after creating the mini, since the canon with the mini is more stable than the canon with the plot hole.

(I assume that canons seek stability because of the way MLP reacts to DAVD-type horror fic, and how many characters resist influence. Maybe the minis are manifestations of the canon's attempt to seek stability by creating a "character" to match the misspelling; and of course this character is usually a monster, because the canon is a bit pissed at being mistreated.)

Which makes me wonder... could the portal generator be used to create a pocket-universe-style plot hole? I suppose it could, but maybe that would just destabilize the continuum further. Better to portal to a hidden location and leave the portal open to look through it.

Questions about minis by Pippa's Ghost on 2015-07-14 20:40:00 UTC Reply

"Maybe the minis are manifestations of the canon's attempt to seek stability by creating a "character" to match the misspelling; and of course this character is usually a monster, because the canon is a bit pissed at being mistreated."
What happens in a crossover? With two continua struggling to seek stability, do you get two different minis with the same name? Or just one mini that's a hybrid of the two types? Or does it depend on which canon the world just happens to resemble at that point in the story?

Nah. by Voyd on 2015-07-14 20:50:00 UTC Reply

It's based on whichever canon the name comes from. The only reason hybrids come about is if a crossover can't tell which canon the name came from, because it's the same or similar. There was a mini-Baragog once.

OK. Thanks (nm) by Pippa's Ghost on 2015-07-14 22:17:00 UTC Reply

Yes, that. by Huinesoron on 2015-07-14 16:28:00 UTC Reply

But I don't think Silenthunder was having them trip into canon-holding plotholes? I can't see any reason someone would raise that as a problem, either - though it wouldn't do much to progress the story.

Given the way the portal generator works (by literally writing a snippet of dodgy story and projecting it into the world), I suppose it could be used for universe generation: 'the generator whirred, and by altering the movement of the fish in a fishtank far away opened a gateway to a magical pocket universe'. But you'd have to hack the console to get that to happen - the Remote Activator seems to just allow you to input coordinates.

Also, Makes-Things might get very upset. And nobody wants to see him cry, do they? :(

hS

Thanks for the explanation. by Silenthunder on 2015-07-14 16:35:00 UTC Reply

I edited according to your word. Now, about the other problem with Talking Heads Syndrome… Any tips on how to fill the time for the agents?

No, not really. by Huinesoron on 2015-07-14 16:42:00 UTC Reply

Otherwise I would've said something in my first post, neh? ^_~

I don't think 'fill up time' is what you really need to do; that sounds too much like padding, which is a bad thing (PPC missions don't need to be longer than they already usually are!). What you need to do is convey the passage of time better. If they're sleeping three times, that means they're spending four days in the fic, with a day between each sleep cycle. If that 'day' just consists of 'let's watch this scene and gripe about it', it feels weird.

So have them walk places. Have them wander off and look around while the fic does something long-winded and boring ('Arabethel had a relaxing three-hour bath'). Have them forced to sit in one place for hours on end to keep track of things. It doesn't need much writing, just... y'know, the passage of time.

Ultimately, it's about picturing what your agents would be physically doing, and then making sure that a) is realistic, and b) is conveyed on the page.

hS