Subject: More on psychology
Author:
Posted on: 2015-06-02 16:19:00 UTC
While they haven't gotten to anything called selective mutism (give it time), I recommend watching Comical Psychosomatic Medicine. Yeah, it's silly and irreverent, but it's also really educational on a whole lot of psychology stuff. I personally found the episode on sleep disorders to be helpful. I'm a lifelong insomniac.
So, I was just listlessly browsing the wiki, clicked the "Random Page" button because why not? and I came across the General Expertise page.
*cue angelic choir*
Beautiful. I realized how incredibly helpful it would be to be able to ask about some of these things in regards to an OC I'm writing for.
To those who don't know, I am currently engaged in the rather "Arda"uos task of creating a believable, non-MS Tenth Walker. I'm fairly satisfied with her so far- Amy Trsitan, thirty five year old software architect, fencer, and incredibly socially awkward and isolated human. I've already got the basic gist of the plot, including how she got to Middle-earth (approved by hS- yay!), why she is allowed on the Quest, and why she's going on the Quest. That's all good.
What I need the most help with is fencing. Amy is a veteran fencer- she's been doing it for two decades. At the moment, I actually have her down as a gold-winning Olympian, but I think I'll tone that way down (unless a wiser head in such manners thinks it's a good idea?). Anyway, I know the bare basics of fencing, courtesy of Wikipedia and various passing references in books, but I would really appreciate a more in-depth look at the sport; mostly focusing on training. Amy also practices regular swordplay (her weapon of choice is a Roman gladius) and I would deeply appreciate principles and fundamentals in that area as well.
The other matter I would like some help with is psychology, if possible. Amy has a certain disorder called "selective mutism." Again, all I know is Wikipedia-level stuff, but basically she chooses not to speak, though she has the ability- sort of. Selective mutism is an anxiety disorder usually found in younger children, and is paired closely with social anxiety. Amy has a severe form known as "progressive mutism," which means she won't speak to anyone, rather than not speaking only in certain situations.
Here's my current backstory for her, which is very much up for critique and suggestion (and outright "Yeah, you're totally wrong and that's ludicrous." Should that be needed).
When she was very young, Amy had trouble learning to speak. She also had growing social anxiety, which made it even harder to learn, and eventually she wasn't making any progress at all. Her parents, who didn't want to force her to do anything, assumed she would grow out of it. She didn't, and over time as she used her voice less and less, she convinced herself that she was actually becoming mute (we've all experienced that harsh, painful croak when we haven't spoken for a while). Before long, she was totally sure in her own mind that she couldn't speak if she tried. Her parents were rightly concerned, but didn't have the proper resources, and didn't know that Amy had a disorder, much less that it could be treated. In addition, Amy seemed happier not being able to speak. It removed the pressure from her to be social and talk to anyone, and she was able to get along just fine with her parents using sign language.
Thus enters fully-grown Amy. Technically, if she learned, she could speak, but she is (a) far too prideful to ask anyone to teach her and (b) would find the whole process mortally embarrassing.
I apologize if the whole section feels rather vague; I don't know anything about what the time scale on this would be. Would it all take place before age seven? Age five? I have no idea.
I also don't have any experience with true social anxiety; I mean, I'm a little awkward at times, but that's about it. So.. add that to the list of things I could use help with.
Anyway, if it's not too much of a bother, I would really appreciate it if you guys could help me out. I very much want Amy to be a good OC, and these sorts of things are very important to that.
First off, I'm not officially diagnosed, and I know my "level" of social anxiety isn't as bad as some people have, since I'm still capable of working around people and having conversations. I just want to share my experience in case it's valuable to you.
So basically, my anxiety reaches it's true worst on work days that are so busy that I'm having to interact with people constantly, with no down time between zoo guests, and hence, no chance to cool down from acting like a regular human. Since my normal baseline is to retreat into my thoughts, the days where I'm forced to keep my attention directed outwards towards people make me start to actually feel like I'm losing my sense of self. Eventually, I get desperate to escape from the people around me, but can't do so in the middle of a work shift. That's when I start to feel hopeless. My entire body starts to go numb, I get dizzy and start hyperventilating, and I have difficulty keeping my balance and controlling my hands. I can't get my body back to normal again until I'm alone and feel safe.
One weird caveat is that if people are making me angry, then I don't reach the point of panic attack. Not really sure why; maybe just because anger hormones are energizing, and keep me from getting that hopeless feeling?
Again, I don't know if this is really useful for you, as I don't know how typical my form of anxiety is, but that's how it is for me.
—doctorlit, realizing he pretty much just admitted to the whole Board that he's actually terrible at his job
I have been trying to puzzle out what the physical effects would be, and this is incredibly helpful. So far all I had was intense blushing, but instead of shutting down Amy would start to feel jittery, and now I see that's not true to life. Thank you so much!
I'm guessing that each person is a little different, but if yours is very atypical, then more research or another commenter will show it to be so.
Again, thank you- and I doubt you're terrible at your job :)
While they haven't gotten to anything called selective mutism (give it time), I recommend watching Comical Psychosomatic Medicine. Yeah, it's silly and irreverent, but it's also really educational on a whole lot of psychology stuff. I personally found the episode on sleep disorders to be helpful. I'm a lifelong insomniac.
I shall give them a look!
I'm sorry about your insomnia; that must be awful.
I'm severely claustrophobic when stuck in a large crowd of people, and I feel like I'm beginning to suffocate. I tend to freeze up even though my brain is screaming at me to GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT. Sweating badly, shaky legs, feeling like I'm going to throw up, the usual.
-Iximaz, who strangely enough doesn't have this problem while at comic con
and unpleasant :( I'm sorry! That definitely helps, though. Thank you!
I don't know enough to really go into detail myself, but my brother fenced for years, and he even reached A-level, which is near-Olympic quality. I'll do my best, and then if you have specific questions, let me know and I can pass them on to him. {= )
I think I can safely say that training consists largely of footwork, footwork, and more footwork. The sort of lunges fencers have to do to reach their target while exposing themselves as little as possible are ridiculous—it takes a lot of leg strength and flexibility. Also, you have to be fast and accurate, and you only get that by doing things over and over and over. Actual bouts happen pretty quickly, but the training is intense.
Then of course there's learning the rules. Each weapon style has different acceptable target areas—smallest for foil, largest for épée. The style is most different for sabre, though, since you can strike with the blade and not just the tip. I think most fencers specialize in one weapon, maybe expanding into the others if they feel like it or if there's a need on their team. (My brother specialized in foil, but also competed sometimes in épée, IIRC. I don't think he did sabre much, if at all.) And you can only score points for touches if you have right-of-way, which I don't fully understand. It seems fairly complicated.
You should know that the sport of fencing is not remotely akin to actual sword-fighting. Fencing swords are light and flexible, with blunt tips, so you don't actually hurt your opponent (apart from some occasional bruising) when you hit them. Real swords are heavy and sharp, and you're not supposed to stop as soon as you touch the target. Plus, your opponent will not be waiting until they have right-of-way to hit you—they'll just go for it. Her fencing training might let her avoid a few blows if she's quick enough at her age, but would otherwise be pretty much entirely against her in actual combat.
Presumably that's why you threw in regular swordplay, too, but again I'd caution you that what she practices for sport will not really prepare her for deadly combat where no one has to follow the rules.
~Neshomeh
This helps immensely! And that's so cool! I think that's what Amy will be; her Olympian status is sort of a relic of a slightly different version of her character, in which she was an over-achiever due to true muteness. A-level provides a reference to her dedication and skill, while avoiding the slightly speshul Olympian. One question I have is "sword forms"- are those.. a thing? I've heard of them being used as practice, but through fiction. In my currently-being-written rough draft, that's how she practices with a non-fencing sword.
Wow, that is complicated!
Yes, that's why I threw it in- although I hadn't thought about the quickness aspect of fencing. That will come in handy rather often, I think. Amy is fit for her age, due to daily training and a healthy diet to the point of obsession.
Ah, yes, I'm very much looking forward to that! :) Amy can be an arrogant individual when it comes to her skill set, and she honestly thinks she's prepared for any sort of fight. Enter big, snarling, definitely-not-playing-by-the-rules Orcs. Amy is going to get knocked down quite a few notches over her time in Middle-earth, starting with her fighting abilities.
Oh, two totally off-topic things; on the General Expertise page, there's a section of religion, and I think I could be listed there under Christianity. I know a fair bit, and what I don't know I can try to find. I'm just very afraid to make any sort of edit to the wiki- it seems slightly complicated, and I don't want to mess anything up. Could I ask someone else to edit me onto there?
The other- I'm still trying to find a title for my story. It's working monicker is "All of My Tomorrows," but I think that sounds too cliche and sappy. What do you think?
I've e-mailed my brother about this now, so hopefully, if he's not too busy, I can get you some authentic information straight from the source.
Also, if you could give me your e-mail address, I can send you some links to stuff about him and his fencing career, such as a YouTube video of an interview with him after he qualified for a regional tournament in 2012. It's all publicly available, but I'm still leery of tying real-life stuff to my username out where anyone can see it. {= )
~Neshomeh
Here's what my brother says, with a couple minor edits and paragraphs added for convenience:
"For the most part, what [Neshomeh] said was true. Footwork is easily the most important aspect of fencing to hone. If your footwork is good enough, you can participate with little to no experience in any of the three weapons and perform well.
"The real reason footwork is crucial is distance. If you are half an inch too close they hit you, half an inch too far and you miss them. Precise control takes a lot of strength at those speeds and learning how to control not only how close you are to them, but how close you allow them to come to you is half the game. Getting just close enough so they think they can attack safely, then being just out of reach, is the best way to set up a winning attack. And, as Mr. Miyagi says, the best way to avoid an attack is to not be there.
"As long as [you aren't] going to attempt to have this person do any significant amount of fencing in the story, there are a few nice hints that I can describe that will make the character seem more believable. First off, not only does a fencer's legs have to be very strong, they become asymmetrical after a while. Your front leg (right for most people) will have much larger quadriceps than your left and the left calf ends up looking like someone's fist embedded in the back of your leg. This is avoidable with exercise, but it's something unique to fencers that [you] could bring up and impress any real fencers who might be reading.
"[Your] question of forms is based on Eastern martial traditions, kata and so forth. However, [you] could impart a certain character to Amy's fencing fairly easily. Each weapon has a very distinct style, too, and within that the best countries in fencing tend to have their own unique personalities: Russians fence in a very direct and simple way, the Italians flourish and spin their blades more dramatically, and the French are just [darned] irritating. Americans are usually heavily influenced by the older styles as their coaches tend to be immigrants from another country.
"Saber is incredibly quick; each action happens in the course of a few seconds and entire bouts are resolved in less than 3 minutes. Foil is more drawn-out and complex, usually involving both fencers moving from one end of the strip to the other a couple times before any touch is scored. Then épée is much slower-paced, but no less intense in its own respects. The fencers stand off against each other, generally they hop a little bit the whole time, it's similar to a tennis player rocking back and forth so they can respond instantly. A friend of mine has the nickname "Proud Baby Mudfoot" for not doing this.
"During this process, each fencer is looking for a weakness in either their opponent's form so as to attack at an angle that they can strike without being hit themselves (the whole body is valid target in épée), or in their opponent's rhythm. If you can attack whilst your opponent is mid-step/hop or immediately before they do, so as to surprise them, they'll usually just kind of stare blankly at you while you poke them indiscriminately.
"So there are a lot of options [you] can go with as far as what [you want] the character to be like and how potentially real combat would end for her. Speaking of real combat, if [you intend] to use their fencing to actually fight other humans to the death, or the severely wounded at least, there are things that are important for [you] to know. First off, the reason right of way exists is actually to train a person for real combat. The reason you score when you do is to teach you that you need to defend when attacked and attack so as not to be skewered in the process. If they attack and hit you, and you counter-attacked, they get the point because you were dumb and made no effort to defend yourself. If you attack and are parried, odds are they can attack you before you can recover, and if you try and attack again and they hit you, they get the point because you were stupid.
"Épée does not have right of way; it's a common misconception that épée is the most realistic because the entire body is valid target and you use the largest blades. Rapiers are very well balanced and quite bendy actually, which is good because if they were too brittle they'd break all the time. Épée was actually training for first blood duels with the goal being simply to touch your opponent first and draw blood to win. If you attacked at the same time and both drew blood there is no clear winner and you continue the match. The exception of course being if one of you is dead and the other isn't.
"Saber was set up as training for cavalry troops fighting each other on horseback. Saber has changed the most in its history and in that respect it is virtually useless, but fighting on foot it isn't as bad though, it's the fastest and it's the only one that features cutting attacks. The target areas are set up to teach fighting for maximum effect. Aiming for the body is the most consistent way of scoring a lethal blow. Limbs move about quickly and unpredictably, people are very wary of their heads and can move them side to side very effectively. Watch a high level boxing match and you'll see what I mean. Torsos are big and the hardest part of one's self to get out of harm's way. There are lots of squishy bits that aren't protected by hard bones for your blade to graze off of. Those squishy bits are also pretty important for people to survive; puncturing lungs, hearts, or stomachs will generally kill if they aren't treated by very advanced medicine very quickly.
"How Amy would deal with brutal fighting depends on her level of dorkiness and/or general ferocity. Judging by what I've read, she would just die. Without deliberate practice for the purpose of really fighting, all she could rely on would be her footwork and sense of timing, which are really important and would let her dance circles around any one moron with a baseball bat. If she went up against someone with martial weapons training or a group of people, she'd just get smoked. It takes a special kind of dork to work on learning the martial applications of fencing alongside the sporting aspects. Generally speaking, people who achieve an A ranking aren't dorks, they are athletes. I'm a very rare exception and I wasn't as great a fencer as I could have been for it.
"If either of you have more questions I can answer them.
"Oh, speaking as a fencer with anxiety, there are things that would be likely for Amy. She would be a defensive fencer. She would lose in saber. Saber is entirely too aggressive for someone with any apprehension at all to succeed in. Of course there's levels of savantism or whatever, [you] could write it off in a lot of different ways, but speaking from experience she would perform ideally in épée or foil. Being taller or shorter would significantly influence her style as well."
That should really help. My brother is a cool dude. ^_^
~Neshomeh
This is AWESOME- your brother is a veritable treasure trove of knowledge! My great thanks to him, and to you too, Neshomeh!
I do have a few more questions, if he doesn't mind- Amy is rather tall at five feet, nine inches, and uses a roughly two foot long sword; how would her style be affected? Judging by what you said, I would say she specializes in foil, so how would that factor in? And also, what Eastern traditions are most commonly practiced, and how would they influence her? Her sword is Roman, and if such a thing exists I could see her trying to train herself in the "Roman way." She couldn't do it particularly well, of course, as she has no one to spar with and no teacher besides the internet.
Amy wouldn't have trained for battle, really- she might have deluded herself somewhat into thinking she has, but you're right; she'll just get smoked.
Thank you so much for the comments on anxiety; that's a really big part of her character, and overcoming it is one of the focuses of her story. And now I know that she'll be a lot more likely to defend, rather than attack, and when facing a raging Uruk that's generally not what you want to do.
Again, thanks so much to both of you!
He writes:
"So, taller people use their height to its maximum advantage whenever they can. Their game is dictated by their ability to reach out and touch people before they themselves can be hit. They can launch an attack at very long range and retreat to safety before anyone can do anything about it.
"On the defense, they intercept their opponents mid-attack in what is called a prise de fer (preese de fare). The basic idea is that before their blade comes anywhere near you, you swat it out of the way, and because they were already initiating an attack you don't have to move at all and they run themselves onto your blade.
"Another good trick tall people can get away with, when dealing with shorter opponents, is to initiate an aggressive attack that is purposefully going to fail and leave your blade extended in the lunge. The opponent sees this as an opportunity to catch you too close and they move in to strike. As soon as they do this, you hit them and retreat as fast as you possibly can. If your timing is even a little off, they'll catch you and score the touch. This is the kind of trick that would very likely get someone killed. If you do it right, you just barely touch them and bail. At best it would be a wounding attack, and in a bout scenario, after a point is scored, the action stops for a moment. Advanced fencers know when they have scored and stop right afterwards. If one were to merely wound their opponent, then just stop fighting, odds are they're about to be very brutally butchered.
"In so much as fencing is concerned, no Eastern traditions are taught or practiced. Any work on that that Amy might have done would have been on her own time and would, generally speaking, impart "bad" habits on her fencing and hurt her performance at tournaments. The closest equivalent to Western fencing in the East that I know of are the Tai Chi sword forms. Those are worth looking into, YouTube videos abound, if you are interested in making her overall style more fanciful.
"Romans had "long swords," but they aren't the sort of hand and a half European long-swords that are traditionally associated with fantasy novels. A Roman spatha, spathae plural, was modeled after the swords that the Romans had encountered in Gaul, Germany, and Britain. They are more like a Viking sword than anything else. Single handed, broad blade, and they didn't taper to the piercing point of a long-sword. As a fencer, it would be an abhorrent weapon. Entirely lacking all the precision and grace of more refined weapons. It was heavy, and poorly balanced. Best suited for hacking and chopping. A good weapon for a shield wall, not so good for combat without a shield. The lack of balance and weight of the weapon would leave you terribly exposed on the recovery unless you were really very strong. Like, Gregor Clegane strong.
"The Roman style of training would have been conducted with a group of people. Very organized and regimented. Romans fought as a group, not as individuals. Rome's greatest asset in warfare was its ability to field bigger armies more often than their opponents. Their tactics were efficient and brutal, but they did not focus heavily on complicated swordplay. Get 500 guys together, give them big shields, heavy swords, and train them not to run away long enough to win the battle.
"I don't intend to dictate to anyone, but late English cut and thrust swords or a rapier would be the best option. They offer balance, speed, and precision. The cut and thrust is heavier and could more effectively parry an attack from heavier weapons. The rapier is of course the ideal, but the only defense option available would be dodging with timing and distance. Those sorts of swords lend themselves the most to the training and skills she would have developed as a fencer."
~Neshomeh('s brother)
I've actually already written that she has one on earth; it would be quite simple to go back and rewrite so that she takes it instead. I might give her the cut and thrust weapon though, since it has a bit more weight. By the way, I'm assuming "cut and thrust weapons" is a group, not a particular sword- which one of them do you think would be best?
Another thing to keep in mind; Amy's not used to extended fights. As I haven't really firmed up the Fellowship's route yet, it'll be interesting to see whether or not she has to enter any battles, and what she'll do in them. Thanks for the different tricks! I'm going to incorporate those at some point.
I'll definitely look into those; thanks!
So, she wouldn't really like a Roman weapon or style at all- got it. I originally gave her a gladius, but it's a little thing (although I don't have many references, so it might be closer to average), and it wouldn't do much good against bigger swords.
Man, it's a good thing I asked about fencing! My story would have been way off; thank you both! I think I have just one more question; besides speed, what would you say is the most valuable Amy has learned in fencing that will help in a real fight?
By the way, I'm sorry I didn't reply more promptly; I only saw your response last night, and it was rather late. I didn't trust myself to formulate the proper questions.
I used to fence saber for about two years, back when I was in eighth and ninth grade, but I never learned half of this stuff. I can confirm footwork is important (for all my two cents are worth, considering who's already given his speech!); it helped me win my first medal thanks to my much more experienced opponent being old and slow. XD
Nesh, seriously, tell your brother he sounds pretty awesome. Much respect to him. :)
allebknight(AT)gmail(DOT)com
And thank you so much- you've been an immense help!