Subject: On that note
Author:
Posted on: 2015-04-26 19:57:00 UTC
Apparently Samuel L Jackson had a lisp as a child (or something of the like) and that played into his decision to portray Valentine in that way.
Subject: On that note
Author:
Posted on: 2015-04-26 19:57:00 UTC
Apparently Samuel L Jackson had a lisp as a child (or something of the like) and that played into his decision to portray Valentine in that way.
I finally saw Kingsman and it is a crazy good movie. I would definitely recommend seeing it if you haven't. It's been a while since I've seen a movie that violent where the violence doesn't seem to overwhelm everything else.
Also I am in love with Roxie, whoops. (And now I'm going to search for fics. Wish me luck...)
First of all, it's great. Wickedly funny. Brilliant parody. All-around well written.
On the other hand... the subtext bugged the crap out of me. I'm not usually fixated on subtext, but the thing is... the bad guy is right. Overpopulation is a problem for many reasons, and we're responsible for that problem. Mind you, I don't agree that slaughtering a bunch of people is the solution—and that being the case, I find it rather confusing that the good guys solve their problem by, uh, slaughtering a bunch of people. However, I really don't like that they ridiculed the whole issue throughout the film, and I also really don't like the fact that Valentine was portrayed as a silly, lisping fop. Way to push the wrong buttons, people.
So yeah. I enjoyed the heck out of the first half and was horribly upset the rest of the time. {= /
~Neshomeh
Chose to portray Valentine like that. From what I remember, he felt that certain groups, I believe he used handicapped in his interview, needed to show that they could actually be brilliant Bond Villain types, so he chose the Lisp to demonstrate that. Regardless, I think it worked. It just added to the sense of absurdity that the entire film was. Everything was so over the top in the film, that I found it all hilarious.
I have nothing against Samuel L. Jackson, and it's nice that he had good intentions.
However... I'm bad at this, so let me just link to a relevant article on TV Tropes. Hopefully that illustrates why it bugs me. If not, I'll try to explain, but I'm not really equipped for a huge debate about the complex interactions between film stereotypes and mainstream society, so apologies in advance.
~Neshomeh
You're saying Samuel Jackson with a lisp was pretty funny, and his reasoning was pretty good on a scientific stand point
Well I botched that message, What I meant to say the Valentine was a good character and I could get his motivations. Also that scene at the end was mind blowing
Valentine wasn't in the comics so he was literally just made for the movie. I think that he was made to complement the "old school gentleman" Harry Hart, also a character created just for the movie adaptation.
But that's part of what made it so hilarious to me. Because it seemed so against the mold of the types of character he usually plays. It worked for the film. If this were a Bond Film, he probably wouldn't have worked at all.
My problem isn't that he's a weak villain-character. I don't think that's the case. My problem is that the bad guy is assigned the following traits:
- Eccentric
- Black
- Lisping
- Squeamish
- Environmentalist
Because he's the bad guy, these things are cast as Other, Outsider, Not Good.
Meanwhile, the good guys we're supposed to root for and identify with have these contrasting traits:
- Polite society
- White
- Well-spoken
- Fearless
- Didn't they refer to that one environmental scientist as a crackpot or something? And apparently Obama-analogue and a whole bunch of other people deserved to have their heads blown off, and we were supposed to laugh and cheer about it? What?
Also, I have no idea how I'm supposed to feel about Colin Firth murdering all those conservative/fundamentalist Christians in their church. Was I supposed to be okay with that because they were horrible people and Colin Firth is a badass and it wasn't really his fault, or was I not supposed to be okay with it because killing is wrong and/or killing Christians who hate gays is even more wrong? I'm incredibly conflicted about that.
(My actual real-world opinion, just to be clear: Just because I happen to disagree strongly with someone's values does not mean killing them is okay.)
Someone's going to start reciting the MST3K Mantra at me any second, but I won't apologize for not being able to ignore the unfortunate implications here. Look, I really, really liked the movie... until I just couldn't anymore. And it makes me sad.
I don't wanna start a fight, though. I'll be in my bunker. >.
~Neshomeh
Are you saying that all villains are always going to be as you said, Other, Outsider, and Not Good? Therefore any traits said villain have are those same? If that's the case it seems then you would have a problem with any minority villain then.
As to the other point, the head blowing off, in my opinion is one of those instances where it crosses the line twice. Campy music and all. And if you do not like the result, if anything it goes back to the old Hays Code of the 30's. Basically part of it was that villains would get what was coming to them. And for a group of people that thought getting the vast majority of the world's population to kill each other, that seems acceptable. And the Environmentalist, they were referring to the one scientist who believed that Humans were a virus and Global Warming was the Earth's way of taking care of it. Not all environmentalists. But I won't even get into that.
As to the Church, well (trying to be polite here) was absolutely vile. Now does that mean its acceptable to kill them, of course not. But it almost seems you have the problem with the violence itself. And there really isn't much I can say about that. Except it happens.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that your problems are with the following.
1. Black Villain
2. Upper-class White Hero
3. Violence
And really I cannot say much without sounding offensive, so I will do exactly what you expect. It's just a movie . And frankly I think you are reading far too much into it. If anything I see it as the film makers and the writer saying the following.
1. Environmentalists who think that killing the majority of the World's Population is the way to stop climate change are both idiotic and bad.
2. James Bond like spies are cool, and generally save the day, though sometimes not in nice ways.
3. Things that are Hate Groups masquerading as churches are vile things.
Just a question, would you find it as problematic if it was a White Villain with the same motives, a non-white hero, and the KKK or Nazis instead of the church? I am just trying to see what the route problem you have with the film is.
Re. Valentine, the problem is that there's a large trend in film for villains to be assigned traits such as the ones I mentioned. By itself it might not mean anything, but looking at it in the broader context of film and society, it's part of a problem. I hoped the Sissy Villain TV Tropes article would explain this—did you read it?
Re. the church, that scene was really what took me out of the movie, IIRC. I had to stop and ask myself whose side I was supposed to be on. On the one hand, killing people is horrible, and so is forcing people to kill each other; point to the Kingsmen. On the other hand, that church was really horrible, too, and Valentine, it seems, represents the sort of progressive liberal viewpoint I'd normally identify with, sans the whole "kill them all" thing. But Valentine wasn't always a villain... he was pushed over the edge by all the people like those churchfolk who refuse to bloody listen because science is the devil, not to mention corrupt world governments who can't or won't do anything because big business won't let them. Point to Valentine.
So, basically, my main problem is that ideologically/politically, I'm on Valentine's side, and I even sympathize with the frustration that pushed him to his extreme actions—just look at how this very film paints environmentalists as extremist nutjobs and you telling me how silly I am for letting it bother me. That's the kind of bullshit we're up against in the real world, why achieving real, impactful change is like pulling teeth. My only reservation is that I can't support a "kill them all" approach. And then the "good guys" go and do exactly that, too, which leaves me high and dry with no one to root for. {= /
I was trying not to make this about politics, but it is. So there you go, let the mud-slinging commence.
~Neshomeh
I did not think so much that it painted all environmentalists as lunatics, just the one who thought the solution was to kill 'em all. And as for the trend, I have not noticed it. Though I do not watch a great many movies. I think part of what the problem is, in the source all of Valentine's Villain traits were folded into Dr. Arnold. For the film they split that off and created a new character.
And I do not know about your area, but in mine environmentalists as a whole (excepting Greenpeace) have made substantial gains. IF your problem really was about politics, then I will not say anymore. I never meant to offend if I did.
And sorry if I'm a bit jumpy. When people have strong feelings about things, as I do about this, that tends to summon as if by magic other people with strong feelings to argue their side, and then the fur flies.
The general feeling about environmentalists and climate change here in the US, or at least what I hear the most, tends to be along the lines of "OMG, you stupid liberal hippie tree-huggers, how dare you try to tell people how to live their lives and stop businesses from making money as is their right? Do you hate freedom or something? Actually, let's not even use the words 'global warming' or 'climate change' anymore. And definitely don't talk to us about the potential health consequences of climate change, that's scare tactics. And don't you dare try to put those windmills in my backyard, it ruins the view."
It's wearying.
But I'll also say no more for now. {= )
~Neshomeh
Where in the US are you? I am in Oil and Gas Country, and we see the risks of it. And acknowledge that certain things need to change. Now in my neck of the woods it is usually switch to natural gas and get rid of coal. Heck even Oil and Gas Companies are diversifying. As for the Windmill problem, NIMBY is a huge problem world wide.
To be honest, I don't know much about what's going on locally. I do see some buildings with solar panels and little wind turbines, which is awesome, and there's the public transit system and bikers, and in recent years we were approached by a company providing green(er) energy to offset the usual sources used by ComEd. It's not all bad.
At the same time, though, there's still a ridiculous number of people who drive in the city, and the huge consumption of electricity which is powered by not-so-green sources, and the general apathy of your average person, plus the national political climate. My building doesn't even have recycling. {= / And, living near the Great Lakes most of my life, I hear about what bottled water is up to and constant attempts by drier states to build pipelines and siphon them off.
... Maybe my real problem is that I don't have the courage to become an activist, so I'm not in touch with whatever progress is happening. The news likes to fixate on the negative, so that's what I hear the most. I just try to do the little things I can in my daily life, and it feels pretty hopeless that way.
~Neshomeh, who sure can talk a lot, sheesh.
There is substantial resistance in Coal Country, particularly Eastern Coal Country like Illinois (the coal has a higher sulfur content and is worse for the environment). It is not surprising then, because the one thing agreed upon, is that Coal needs to be drastically cut, if not phased out all together. So now I understand why that view prevails in your area. Basically in order to make substantial gains against global warming etc., the Coal industry needs to basically cease to exist.
And I know for a fact that the State of Illinois has pushed back hard against the Federal Government for trying to change to Rocky Mountain Coal, so now I understand. From what I understand nationwide though, that tends to be the minority view. And it creates some strange bedfellows. Big Oil and Gas Companies agreeing with Environmentalists for example. That's part of what I am seeing in Louisiana/Texas Region. The big rhetoric here is basically Coal is bad, and we should switch to Natural Gas until renewable sources are more efficient. Then again those companies plan on using Natural Gas indefinitely.
If it is not clear, my own views are hybridized. I see climate change as a real problem, though I personally think that harms are overstated. I think Coal is the largest offender. Technology marches forward so vehicle emissions are not as severe as a problem as the 80 year old Coal Plants, which have predominately been grandfathered into the Clean Air Act Regime with basically the same highly polluting technology. Frankly I am all for Nuclear Power, I think the rare accidents get too much focus. See now when they get brought up you will hear, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, etc. and they fail to realize that these incidents are incredibly rare, and with the exception of Chernobyl relatively minor. A Natural Gas plant going up would cause the same damage. Chernobyl is the exception, but that is largely because the Soviets just wanted to cover it up, so it kept leaking for longer than it ever should have.
Then you get into NIMBY issues, and that really hamstrings the industry. Radioactive waste just sits there, because Nevada refused to let the Yucca Mountain plan go into effect. Then Reid and the Senate killed the program dead just a year or two ago. Then you have Maine who did not want to put offshore wind platforms because it made the view worse. And then you have things like States just not wanting Nuclear Power (Vermont/New York) and basically close plants down forcing at least heavy temporary reliance on Coal (and more likely than not Eastern Coal, due to efficiency), which actually makes the problem worse. That does not even take into account efficiency issues with Solar and Wind Power.
But the political climate itself, it isn't that they are not resistant to change, its just many of the Republicans are looking for softer measures, like Cap and Trade, where many of the Democrats seem to want to do something like what Germany is doing now. Quit Cold Turkey. Now the polarization further complicates issues. The President does not really want to negotiate with Republicans, they do not really want to negotiate with him either. Then that does not include the fact that Senators Reid and McConnell really only talk at the 11th Hour. Then there is also the fact that right now the Tea Party has either forced out or paralyzed the Moderate Republicans, so the House cannot even work in their own party. No side really wants to compromise, but to be fair, part of that problem was related what then Minority Republicans saw as abuse of power, so Congress did exactly what it was designed to do in those instances, it became Gridlocked. And unfortunately we are now in the stage where no one really wants to give. Which is why, if anything gets done it's at the 11th Hour. And now the problem is the relationship between the President and Republicans in Congress is so sour, that the odds of anything of significance getting done is next to zero until there is a new President is elected, but if it ends up being Ms. Clinton, the gridlock will probably continue until the next Congressional Elections. The bottom line the relationship between current Republican and current Democratic leadership is terrible, and not likely to change anytime soon.
This wound up being far longer than I expected. So the TLDR version is basically:
The situation is a mess, I personally though do not think it is quite as severe a problem as is implied. Coal Country is very resistant to any Green House Gas regulation because it will basically obliterate an important industry that traditionally has been protected by those States, and the country is moving (albeit slowly) towards cleaner fuel, though the technology is not quite there yet. One last point, always treat US News sources with skepticism. All of them are biased. Ones like Fox are clearly biased, but even CNN, MSNBC, and the like do have substantial biases, they are just a lot more subtle than Fox is.
~[EvilAI]UBEROverlord, who can talk quite a bit more, and is probably clearly preparing for an Environmental Law Final and an Energy Regulation Final, but is glad he did not start citing cases, because then this would have gone on for another 30 pages. And also does not intend to offend anyone.
Apparently Samuel L Jackson had a lisp as a child (or something of the like) and that played into his decision to portray Valentine in that way.
I absolutely loved that film! A stunning example of the Spy Thriller genre reconstructed! And please, do report on any goodfic you find.
The whole time I was watching that movie, when I wasn't too busy laughing, I was thinking 'Man, DoSAT's gonna have a field day with these toys!'