While that may be true...

Subject: While that may be true...
Author: Darkotas
Posted on: 2015-02-26 20:19:00 UTC

The powers should not define who the character is. The important thing is the person behind the character - if powers weren't a part of the equation at all, what kind of person would this character be? If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I apologize if I'm not), you have a set of powers, and then build the personality and character behind it afterwards. While this works for the DC universe, I don't think it would work in the context of an agent.

I think it really comes down to the difference between Superman and Batman. For Superman, the hero is the mask - he considers himself as Clark Kent at heart. For Batman, Bruce Wayne is the mask - the true individual is the Bat. Which would your character consider herself to be closer to?

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Asking the Board's opinion about a character by Edhelistar on 2015-02-25 20:07:00 UTC Reply

I have an Agent idea that was inspired by a comment from Neshomeh, but since this character is kinda powerful, I decided to throw it to the Board-folks for review and, if necessary; correction or destruction. But first a little back-story.

This character was created for a ~~really bad~~ original continuum that I created at least ten years ago, probably more; that, in retrospective; was pretty much a ripoff of the DC Universe, but this character was special, because in a world of ripoffs, this one was the ultimate: This character was a 15-years old red-haired literal clone of the then Kara Zor-El/Supergirl! Other than that, the character had little personality or history (and full access to her full Kryptonian powers, despite the fact she was teen and a clone on top of that!), and aside from the codenames Kryptogirl and Project-K, she had no true name. Eventually, I got fed-up with this Sue-continuum, and was retconned it into oblivion.

But here’s the thing: This “Kryptogirl” despite being “born” and grown in this continuum , technically wasn’t a native from it, as a clone of Supergirl, she was technically a native from the DC Universe New Earth-continuum (Post-Crisis/Pre-New52). So, instead of being assimilated into the canon, she was just expelled to Limbo (In other words; Krytonians do not exist in my original continuum, it wouldn’t be “original” if they did.).

So, my idea is to rescue this character from Limbo, bring her personality, powers and abilities closer to what was canon at the time in the DCU, give her the name “Katya” and recruit her for the Department of Improbable Crossovers.

So her powers will be left as:
*Solar Energy Absorption (Like all canon Kryptonians she has no upper limit to how much energy can hold, though at the start she will have none, due to a prolonged lack of sunlight exposure during her long stay in Limbo and stay in the PPC HQ).

**Kryptonian Physiology (Powers under this header will be severely limited due to her physiological immaturity, though she probably still has them, as a example I could use the canon clone Superboy/Kon-El/Conner Kent, he was able to keep up for a while with the Eradicator, and survived being shocked with a three-phase power transformer. So probably, in this case; she would be at the power level of Spiderman or, at best; Aquaman.)

***Superhuman Strength
**** Super Jump

***Superhuman Speed
**** Superhuman Reflexes

***Superhuman Stamina

***Superhuman Durability

***Superhuman Senses (Very Limited, probably near useless.)
**** X-ray Vision / other EMS Visions
**** Telescopic Vision
**** Microscopic Vision

***Healing Factor

***Heat Vision (She won’t able to use this one more than a few seconds, because since it uses a lot of Solar Energy, it would be cost prohibitive for her. Also she cannot control it very well.)

**Bio-Electric Aura (Her main power. Is a psionic aura that floats a few millimeters above her skin, this is the reason she has to use form-fitting clothes.)

***Nigh-Invulnerability (Her bio-electric psionic aura subconsciously protects her from injury coming from physical assaults and some energy types. She can also extend it to protect others.)

***Tactile Telekinesis (She can use the aura subconsciously to prevent large objects she lifts to crumble under their weight around her human-sized hands, it also can be used consciously, for a variety of effects, like increased strength, limited hovering/floating, force blasts, etcetera.)

**Flight (Fully fledged flight at high speeds by her own willpower, is subjected to the same limitations of Heat Vision.)

Now, her weaknesses will be:
*Kryptonite Radiation (As per DCU-then-canon, severe poisoning limited to the Kryptonite native to the sub-continua Earth-1 (Pre-Crisis), New Earth(Post-Crisis) and Prime Earth (New52) and their alternate timelines only, Kryptonite from other alternate sub-continua have no visible effect on her.)

*Red sunlight radiation. (Depowers her through the replacement of the empowering one in her cells.)

*Magic. (Because of course! Seriously though, since her powers are biological in nature, she has no defense against magic.)

*Physiological Immaturity (Already touched in the powers part. Her physical powers are very limited.)
**Electricity (Also, since her protective aura is electric in nature, electricity will interfere with it, and since her body is not fully matured, she can be brought down with a sufficiently high voltage.)

*Limited Sunlight Processing (Because of her nature as a Human/Kryptonian Hybrid clone, she can only process sunlight at half the rate that Full Kryptonians do, that makes her burn through her reserves rather quickly and make her very exhausted after a prolonged fight.)

*No Combat Training (Pretty much anyone in her power league will kick her ass, because her lack of training and exercise. )

*Telepathy (Unlike The Man of Steel himself, she has no psychic training, rendering her vulnerable to telepathic assaults.)

(Yes, all above means that Aquaman of all people can effortlessly kick her ass all the way to next sunday.)

She will also be equipped with a Nanoha-verse Output limiter/Device in the form of a bracelet, heavily modified and enchanted with indestructibility and a removal-prevention spell by DCUFA (DC Universe Fanfiction Academy. Yes, I conjured this OFU from thin air, probably I will get around to write it someday.) faculty member Doctor Fate, which magically locks most of her superhuman abilities, except for her Solar Energy Absorption and Weaknesses. This limiter can only be activated and deactivated by voice command from Department Heads and/or her assigned partner Agent (The Department Heads [ie. The Flowers] override the partner though.). The limiter is set to "Active" by default.

I have some concerns. by PoorCynic on 2015-02-26 18:16:00 UTC Reply

First off, I'm not really seeing a true character here. All you've presented to us is a generic archetype with a list of powers. Archetypes are fine when you're in the early stages of drafting a character, but you can't just coast on them. A good character is more than a sentence. A good character is more than a checklist of entries from TV Tropes. You should think of a good character as an actual person, with all the complexities thereof.

I also have some qualms about what you intend this character to be used for. Based on the other posts you've made in this thread, it seems to me that you just want to use Katya as a tool to better go toe-to-toe with superpowered Sues and Stus. I've harped on this before, and I'll probably harp on it again in the future: PPC agents should not be fighting Sues and Stus head on. They're not soldiers and they're not Jason Bourne-esque spies; they win their "fights" through clever thinking and misdirection, not combat.

That's not to say agents with mega-powers can't be written, it just depends on how they are written. That's the true test of a character. I would like to see Katya in a drabble or two, maybe inspired by something off of the Permission prompt list.

That's pretty much the state I left her 10 years ago... by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 19:12:00 UTC Reply

At the time I had no idea of what that "characterization" thing was, I not even knew what a "trope" was or what that "canon" thing was.

I just rescued her from Limbo less than a week ago, made her canon comformant and I'm currently building her personality. In other words, most of this concerns are also my concerns, right now that I know her powers aren't an issue.

Pro tip: by JulyFlame on 2015-02-26 04:11:00 UTC Reply

You don't actually need to cut her off from her powers or abilities to make her be an 'okay' character for the PPC.

The important thing is that she's written responsibly by you. If you can't guarantee that you'd write her responsibly without a built-in limiter, maybe you should reconsider using her at this time entirely. By this I don't mean have her not need it at all, but that if she was placed into the position where she misused her powers and should be in trouble (which has a good chance of happening, considering how Kara can get at times), would you be able to write out the appropriate consequences? This is the question you need to be asking yourself.

PPC agents don't need a surfeit of powers to be able to do what they do; my main two were completely normal baseline humans. But it also doesn't mean that when they do have powers, that you need to lock them down so they aren't Sueish. Hitting the ticky boxes does not a Sue or Stu make. The key is qualitative, not quantitative.

Beyond that, Aquaman is actually ridiculously strong. DCU Atlanteans are really tough in general because they can sustain underwater pressures that will squish a normal human.

(Also, collecting the mini 'Spiderman'. It's always Spider-Man, with the hyphen. ;))

Thanks for your concrit! by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 12:59:00 UTC Reply

Actually the reasons for limiting her powers are twofold:

1)Consistency: She has been over 10 years without sunlight, I'll surprised if she could even muster a little Super-Hearing.

2) PPC Cannon: The only reason she has the limiter is this line from the Mission Writing Guide, under the "Creating Your Own Agents" header: "[...]the Flowers tend not to like having underlings with that level of power." If it wasn´t for that, I wouldn't even have come with the idea for a limiter... At the start. She would have done something stupid eventually and would have been limited anyway.

I am pleasantly surprised, that someone called me out with the Aquaman bit, I know how powerful the King of the Seven Seas is, but not that much people is that well informed. I could have used Black Lighting instead, but he's not that well known nor has Aquaman's dubious call to fame. XD

Also, give back that mini! I like using it regularly!

Okay, see... by JulyFlame on 2015-02-26 19:47:00 UTC Reply

This response isn't filling me with confidence.

First off, your replies here make me feel more like you want her to have the powers so be more a handy weapon to be released than a character who has a lot of powers they have to control- the whole World of Cardboard speech that Superman had in the DCAU underlines the challenges presented by a character having those powers.

Secondly, the purposeful misrepresentation of Aquaman? Not really encouraging to me, personally, as a comics fan, or as someone with interest in the PPC. When you know a canon, but others don't, it is not an excuse to misrepresent it to others, especially someplace like here, especially when you're trying to use it as a point of comparison for a character you're interested in using here that you're trying to get opinions on.

Also, no, you can't have it back. Purposefully misspelling character names is in poor taste. Mine now.

You raise some very valid points. by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 20:27:00 UTC Reply

Seriously, I had been defending Aquaman for years from haters and suddenly, I joke about him? What was I thinking!?

Well leaving that aside, the powers are actually quite a complex issue I have been dancing around for now, that must adressed at some point. I cannot have her at HQ with the powers, or let her use them at every mission, that would be dangerous both for herself and others. But I also must find a time and place for her to train them, because seeing them like "just a weapon to be released" is something I don't like. Hmmm...

Hey... Didn't the Eclectic Subdivision of Advanced Species had an RC for traning? Probably I could use something like that. That would be also useful for Character Develoment, considering that her partner would be overseeing the training, therefore strengthening their bond by interacting between missions.

Basically... by Desdendelle on 2015-02-27 14:31:00 UTC Reply

I think the problem here is that you're approaching this backwards. 90% of the time, a character is what it is because of its personality, not because of whatever powerset it has. In fact, a lot of Sues are Sues because their authors thought "Hey, that's a cool power, let's make a character with it!" and didn't do anything else.
Let's take an agent of mine for example. Amris is a Culture Drone - a pretty powerful machine; it can cut molecular bonds with its fields, for example, deflect lasers, and the like. What makes it a character is not its powers, though; it's its bloodthirstiness, sarcasm, and somewhat kuudere relationship with his partner.

Basically, what you want to do when creating a character is to think about the personality first, then think about powers.

There are, of course, exceptions: I have a character with psychometric powers he can't control or turn off; that sort of power can, should and does affect a character in a major way. Backrow would be a completely different guy if not for his mutation.

Err... not quite. by Edhelistar on 2015-02-28 03:17:00 UTC Reply

Like I said before, I first make a basic design of how I want the character to look like. Then personality and powers, if it has. One of my main characters went from shy and serious to a hyperactive Cloudcuckoolander and her powers went from blue fire to Light Magic in the span of 9 years, but always kept the basic design of "asian girl with long straight black hair and glasses". Also,she always loves pink, I don't know why.

Some other characters were created by a question, like one of my latest characters. The question was: What would happen if a Western Otaku girl became a Magical Girl?

But Katya the Half-Kryptonian? Is an anomaly. Is a character from The Box of the Forgotten Characters. A 10-year old Bit Character/Mary Sue made in my teen years for the ~~heavily Suefied~~ first draft of my original continuum (Two guesses of why she never made it beyond). In other words is a character that I'm trying to rescue and rehabilitate, not a character that I just created few days ago.

(Besides, thanks to an oportunate question by Darkotas down there, I got an idea to build Katya's personality, now I'm just left with the Superpower Dilemma.)

Yeah, It's Less About Actual Power and More About Challenge by sjosten on 2015-02-26 06:40:00 UTC Reply

Way back when I was taking that Are You Ready For Permission? test, I remember it being described sort of like this:

Sues are supposed to be normal people, generally, but never face actual adversity. Some characters are monstrously powerful, but still have a difficult time getting something done. You can have a super powerful character, so long as they still have to actually work to accomplish their goals.

Now, I'm sure I just butchered what our lovely PGs put together, but you probably understand what I'm getting at.

Yes I do, by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 15:44:00 UTC Reply

Heck,compared to many of my characters she's nowhere near them in terms of power. I mean how could she compete with actual reality warping gods and goddesses. Or a demigoddess who can manipulate the entire Electromagnetic Spectrum of Radiation. Or the avatar of the Mesoamerican god Quetzalcoatl, and I could go on, and on, and on...

And I have made a personality for each of them. And one of them is one of my protagonists, and I´m giving her a very hard time. ;)

While that may be true... by Darkotas on 2015-02-26 20:19:00 UTC Reply

The powers should not define who the character is. The important thing is the person behind the character - if powers weren't a part of the equation at all, what kind of person would this character be? If I'm interpreting this correctly (and I apologize if I'm not), you have a set of powers, and then build the personality and character behind it afterwards. While this works for the DC universe, I don't think it would work in the context of an agent.

I think it really comes down to the difference between Superman and Batman. For Superman, the hero is the mask - he considers himself as Clark Kent at heart. For Batman, Bruce Wayne is the mask - the true individual is the Bat. Which would your character consider herself to be closer to?

Actually... by Edhelistar on 2015-02-27 01:14:00 UTC Reply

...I design in my mind the character's appeareance first, everything else comes later, usually I work with powers (if it has) and personality at the same time, updating the looks if necessary. Well, that's today, 10 years ago... I don't quite remember, my mind as a teen is now a fuzzy memory.

Regarding your question, I'm not quite sure about which character are you asking about. Is about the one mentioned in my last response, or is the character which all this thread is about? Anyway I'll answer about both.

For the character mentioned in the response:
Maia Matsuno a.k.a. Skylight; for her the hero is the mask, a mask to show to the public and the media, which uses light-based powers she never asked for in the first place, the one who receives all attention she never liked to receive, a "Beacon of Hope" for all the new heroes rising fifteen years after an alien invasion that nearly exterminated superhumans, a "Messiah" she doesn't want be. All she wants is to be Maia, the tomboy girl who plays videogames, watches TV, hangs out with friends and never is the center of attention. The who uses glasses because is nearsighted, and not because is hiding her identity, because learning your mother is a Greek Goddess is cool, but becoming the center of attention for the world because you're the first superhuman in 15 years, is not. But sadly, there's no going back in time. Now there's only accepting it, steping forward and try to be the heroine everybody spects her to be.

Now about Katya, well, she´s the mask... And there's nothing under it... Nothing at all. You see, I created both characters at the same time (I think Skylight was named Lightstar or something like that at the time) , but in the last 10 years, while Katya was sent to Limbo; Skylight had 6 reboots, 4 re-designs, 3 character merges, 1 retcon, Character Development and a massive power boost! Also, she received... WAITAMINUTE! A daughter (Actually two, but only the first one is important for this)! "...going back in time"? That's it!

Aiko, Maia's daughter is perfect for this! 'Cuz she always gets into this kind of shenanigans, and her personality gives me the base to build up Katya's one!

Darkotas, I can only thank you for this, your question put me into this train of thought and allowed me to solve most of the problems with the Half-Kryptonian! (I still have some, but those can be solved with plot.) Thank you again!

So, basically... by Scapegrace on 2015-02-25 22:47:00 UTC Reply

She's got a PK Supergirl-setup from the Whateley Universe continuum that's a lot closer to being the actual Supergirl. Cool, we can work with that. Her comparative immaturity and power-limiter artifact will help, but I think the big downside is actually the electricity aura if you make it sensitive. Sod Aquaman, she can get taken down by a no-name kid with a Taser.

I definitely think that in this case, the Flowers would demand that her limiter is also, for want of a better term, a shock collar. If she should turn against the PPC for whatever reason, well, she's got an off switch on her wrist. Ooh, make a matching one like Wonder Woman's bracelets and never tell her which one the real one is! Better yet, make BOTH of them limiters! Redundancy is just good planning made flesh in this instance. =]

Aquaman useless? by World-Jumper on 2015-02-25 23:44:00 UTC Reply

(I swear, I was going to use the C'thulu one, but then, I saw this, and the sharks... They called to me.)

(Oh, fine, this should be the last shark post. Probably.)

Awww yeees, I love that image. by Edhelistar on 2015-02-25 23:52:00 UTC Reply

New52 Justice League #4, how could I forget that glorious moment!

Not quite... by Edhelistar on 2015-02-25 23:15:00 UTC Reply

Her powers are closer to the Superboy of the 90s. (Also there was a PK Supergirl around the same time in the DCU). And blame John Byrne about the electric aura concept, he came up with it.

Aquaman, taken down by a no-name with a TASER? Uh-huuuuh, suuuuure...

No need to be sadistic; with the limiter active, she has nothing to speak of, she's physically weak due to a lack of exercise and no relevant skills whatsoever, you could taser her withy impunity in fact. XD

Well, that's me told. by Scapegrace on 2015-02-25 23:41:00 UTC Reply

I'm more of a Marvel genderqueer-thing. By which I mean I watch a lot of Atop The Fourth Wall and quite like the films. But yeah, if your electric aura thingy is sufficiently sensitive to electrical interference, then yeah, a taser could do it. =]

That would like using a taser against Spiderman... by Edhelistar on 2015-02-25 23:55:00 UTC Reply

You need a lot more voltage, bio-electric aura or not. Because, Superhuman Durability.

That's something I've been meaning to ask, actually: by Scapegrace on 2015-02-26 00:34:00 UTC Reply

Does superhuman durability cover resistance to pain? Because, and as a student activist during 2011 I assure you I speak from experience, being tased really hurts even if you don't have a bio-electric aura for people to muck about with.

Probably it does. by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 00:51:00 UTC Reply

I have seen Spider-man shrugging off being smashed into a car, Aquaman shrugging off bullets, a knife, a taser and FRICKIN' LAZERS (not to mention landing after a Super Jump), and Thor simply receiving everything Iron Man sends at him without even flinching. None of them showed being in pain at that, so my guess is that yes, it comes with a higher pain threshold.

No pain immunity mind you, leave that for Luke Cage; they just need more of the painful stuff to feel it.

I think it depends! by firemagic on 2015-02-25 22:36:00 UTC Reply

The most important part is personality, not the powers. In most missions she'll be in a disguise without her normal powers anyways. The important thing is making sure her personality and backstory are sound and entertaining.

On the actual thing you were asking about, I think that the powers don't seem too bad.

Thanks for the input! by Edhelistar on 2015-02-25 23:48:00 UTC Reply

Actually, she'll without powers most of the time, even in HQ. Period. The idea of a unstable and hormonal teeager with this kind of power is certainly terrifyng. Her powers will be only for dealing with overpowered Sues/overpowered Possessed Canons, like: Green Lanterns, The Avatar, other Kryptonians, Magical Ice-Wielding Queens, Saiyans, Etc.

And actually her backstory is in the main post: Is a clone of Kara Zor-El/Supergirl combined with human DNA for stability and the only survivor of an erased Sue-verse, that was expelled into Limbo by the Power of Retcon(tm). Most of the deal with her story, will be her discovering her personality and gathering actual experiences. Fifteen years under that amount of Suefluence isn't exactly a good thing for a person's mental state.

Well, what I meant is more... by firemagic on 2015-02-26 00:51:00 UTC Reply

Blank Slate characters can be a bit hard to pull off. A powerset doesn't necessarily make or break a character, but their personality does...

I'm not sure whether that clarified anything or not. Hm.

I understood perfectly what you said. by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 01:35:00 UTC Reply

Is just that the character is essentially a bit character from a never written badfic (one that I'm very ashamed for even coming up with the idea), which was mostly a World of Sues, in which she had no more personality than "Generic Teen with Superpowers". Powers she can no longer use, unless the 120-years-old-War-Veteran she has as a partner lets her.

Aaand don't know what else to say without giving out spoilers, except that I know how hard is to write a near-Blank Slate like this one, but is kinda the point, I like the challenge!

Well yes, great. by Huinesoron on 2015-02-26 06:27:00 UTC Reply

But you still have to write her with a personality, unless you plan on her responding to everything with a stare and a flat tone. And the personality you write will determine how interesting/entertaining she is to read. People don't read stories because they like the main character's skillset.

And... well, we've got a long history of people saying their agent will be a blank slate, but they rarely actually are. Most of these characters come out with a distinct personality right from the outset, with the author protesting that they are a blank slate because they angst about it, or occasionally lash out, or whatever. If you want to write an actual blank character, great - but if not, please don't pay lip service to the idea.

hS

Thanks for your concrit, Lord Huinesoron! by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 14:33:00 UTC Reply

(Because, who cares!? For me you are one of the Elven Lords of the First Age!)

I was actually using "no personality" in a critical sense, not in the literal; in this case meaning "Generic Personality", so, in a sense you are right, after she isn't a golem, a robot, a Heartless or The Matrix (the PK/Shapeshifting Supergirl.). She has a personality, is just that the personality is "Generic Teen with Superpowers".

More correctly her story would be about her finding her identity (Thanks TvTropes!), for which, by giving her the name "Katya", making her my DCU expert (ie. making her like comics!) and giving her two Lust Objects; the first steps have been taken.

Never a lord; just a humble follower of House Finarfin. by Huinesoron on 2015-02-26 14:49:00 UTC Reply

But coming back on-point... that's not a personality. You wouldn't describe Feanor's personality as 'Noble Noldo of Incredible Skill', would you? You'd describe him as proud, arrogant, obsessive, ~~stupid, insane, sociopathic,~~ and the like. Nor would Sam Gamgee's personality be 'Short Servant': you'd be throwing out words like humble, optimistic, loyal.

So what's Katya's personality? What are the words that tell you how she'd react to a situation? If I tell you that Agent Kaitlyn is cheerfully exuberant, but highly competent with a core of steel, you could probably fill in a lot of her reactions for yourself. But if you tell me Katya is 'Generic Teen with Superpowers'... yeah, not a chance.

Powers don't make a character interesting; personality does that.

hS

Hmm, I see... by Edhelistar on 2015-02-26 15:24:00 UTC Reply

You want me to define it. Ok, I define "Generic Teen ~~with Superpowers~~", as she being hot-blooded, rash, impulsive, energetic, and all around not being very wise with words and actions.

And she comes from a ~~badfic~~ world where her actions had no lasting consequence. And now awakes in Medical, with no recollection of how she got there, without powers and in a world where her actions have serious consequences (like getting pummeled by the Dandelions for being ~~a smartass~~ ~~dumb~~ ~~stupid~~ having no wisdom with her words and trying to enter a restricted area).

Other than that, I have nothing more to start with, though I will probably think of something.