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I want to thank both you and Tomash for doing an excellent job of explaining a broad and complex field. And this is the third one >>> Thank you.

I have said it thrice;
What I tell you three times is true.

I'm curious about this concept you call 'gender identity' (in your second paragraph). As someone who has never looked at any group or individual - male, female, social, age, fandom, hobby, whatever - and gone 'yes, I belong in a group with this person', I'm interested to know how common it actually is. I am fully aware that I am odd. ^_~

hS

Though I can't escape the feeling it has too many legs... also a flame mustache. ^_^

We did! We spaced them out over about a month, tacking them onto meals that we felt deserved them. :) Thank you very much.

hS

As someone who has difficulty understanding all the stuff about gender and whatnot, I appreciate this whole clarifying, yet non-polarizing, discussion of what transgender, among other things, means.

I actually know someone who's mosaic 46-XX/XY: some of their cells are "normal" XX, and others are "normal" XY. They're cool people, and a big activist for intersex issues here at work.

It's also possible for people to be genetically "normal" and still intersex- there are lots of developmental conditions that can produce intersex bodies. And there's things like Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, in which an apparently normal woman has a Y chromosome.

And we pretty much try to use sex for the scientific reason- although, for trans people whose transitions include chemical or physical changes, "biological sex" becomes an incredibly complicated concept. I'm at risk for breast cancer... and prostate cancer. Whoops?

And, yeah. My dysphoria was entirely rooted in the shape of my body and the unhappiness of a brain trying to run on testosterone. That would exist regardless of the society I did, or didn't, find myself in- even now, post-transition, I'm still just "one of the engineers"- which is basically indistinguishable from "one of the guys". (There's a whole 'nother rant here about the male-centric nature of the technology industry, but I'll spare you all.)

There are people who are otherwise! There are people whose dysphoria includes not being seen as who they are, and that's a very real form of dysphoria too. There are people who feel no physical discomfort, just social discomfort, and that's enough reason for them to change.

-Delta

There's one other thing to gender that's almost impossible to put into words- there's a sense, somewhere deep inside us, of what group we belong to. I can look at another woman and recognize- I might not look like her, we might have wildly different outfits or body shapes, but we recognize that we are the same group in a way that any guy- even my hypothetical cis-male twin, would not be.

And I think that's the missing part here- everything else probably shapes that underlying sense, and we're comfortable or uncomfortable with bodyshape, presentation, hormones, etc based off of the combination of it and social constructions. It's all approximately as circular as only psychology can be- but there is that deep group-sense that is usually called "gender identity". Everyone has it. Most (cis) people don't question it. But it's still there.

So! with that introduction- you've pretty much got it! Bodyshape is a thing that's very significant (I've even seen it alter my perceptions of myself- looking in a mirror and wait, where did those curves come from? Or where did they go? I could swear I wasn't shaped like this yesterday...), and for most people, falls into two (broad, mostly socially-defined) categories.

I believe that non-binary identities, as with trans identities, are just that- they come from, at root, internally-held gender identities. My sister, who habitually cuts her hair short, identifies as a woman- therefore, when she performs stereotypically un-womanly actions (cutting her hair short, wearing flannel, driving a pickup truck), she is a woman performing stereotypically un-womanly actions.

On the other hand, a non-binary person, whose gender identity is some combination of not-a-woman and not-a-man, is inherently non-binary. Everything that they do, both in life in general and to be comfortable with their body and presentation, is being done as a non-binary person. Cutting their hair short, discarding a normal image of femininity, brings great relief to some NB people who society wants to see as women.

And here it's important to note- while a lot of NB people aim for maximum androgyny- that's their ideal bodyshape, presentation, etc, there are many who do not. The things they do, the way they present and shape themselves, are reflections of their underlying gender identities rather than creating said gender identities.

And finally! Agender is a gender identity that pretty much boils down to, as you so wonderfully said, the sense of self-shape and gender giving up and going home. When I'm agender, I don't want to be seen, or see myself, as an entity that contains gender. We don't agonize over what gender a building is (except maybe in Spanish class), so why should we worry about mine? I just want to be seen as a person- gender identity has left the building, middle fingers upraised.

Obvious disclaimer: agender is definitely not the only non-binary identity, or even the only non-binary identity I visit. There are days where I relish being maximally androgynous, where I want to see people try, and fail, to put me into a binary box. Agender is... not like that. It's "why are we playing this stupid gender game, again?", it's "don't try to ma'am/sir me, just give me my damn coffee."

Scientifically, at least, sex is always used for an organism's biological characteristics—the gonads, chromosomes, and hormones. The stuff that's definitely not a choice or a social construct. Everybody is born with a sex, whether it's male, female, or intersex. (Side note: some people have interesting combinations of sex chromosomes such as XO, XXY, XYY, and more! These combinations tend to cause health and development problems, some obvious, some not.)

Gender, therefore, is all that other stuff we've been talking about: the internal mindstate, the Residual Self-Image, the social expectations, the chosen self-expression relating/contrary to one's biological sex.

So I guess my question is answered by the existence of the brain's map of the body, and transgenderism would still be a thing even in the absence of any social expectations relating to body shape. There would still be people with body dysphoria.

That's my take on all this, anyway.

~Neshomeh

I always find the best way to figure out if you've understood someone is to repeat it back to them in your own words. So here we go:

What you seem to be saying is that 'gender' means (to coin a hopefully neutral word) 'bodyshape': the physical makeup of your body, including primary and secondary sexual characteristics, hormonal balance, and things like hair length and such.

You're then saying that people have an innate sense of what their bodyshape/gender should be; you're not putting it quite as strongly as Tomash did, but I think the idea's there. Essentially the Residual Self-Image from the Matrix, but for real life.

You then note that bodyshape (ideal and current/actual) falls broadly into two categories, which are to an extent socially-defined - long hair was a mark of male youth in Renaissance Italy, for instance, but not so much today. Most people are comfortable in one of those two categories, which pegs them as cis/trans-male/female, in some combination.

Anything which falls outside those categories is non-binary. How far does that go? I'm guessing short hair doesn't make a woman non-binary; or does it, if the intent of cutting it short is to be un-feminine (without specifically/necessarily being masculine)?

And then you throw out the term 'agender', which I think means that on some days your innate sense of what your body should look like... what? Gives up and goes home? That seems to be what you're implying (or at least that you don't see it as important on those days), but I'm honestly not sure.

How did I do?

hS

(I really don't think you can call this 'little provocation. ^_~)

So! I like your definitions- I would extend gender to also include a lot of self-image and body-shape stuff, though. The world at large believes that women have long hair, hips, a waistline, breasts, etc, therefore that image is part of that gender.

We trans people don't really talk about "transitioning sex" much- even the term "sex reassignment surgery" is falling out of favor for "gender reassignment" or "gender confirmation". The point of my journey has been entirely about my relationship to my gender- both how the world sees me and how I see myself. The most biologically heavy part of it is that testosterone was making me all kinds of depressed, and getting off that stuff gave me huge dividends.

Gender is all about self-chosen identity. It's frequently conveniently in line with how our bodies are shaped, which is the state we call being cisgender. Ultimately, though, it's a choice we make- how are we shaped? How do we want to be shaped? What hormones are we comfortable with? Where aren't we comfortable with our bodies? Basically all the answers to these questions fall into the arena of gender.

The words we use are really just trying to describe the very squishy answers to those questions- they're not hard categories, they're definitely not easy to be specific with, and all of them are mostly used to try to talk about our feelings and experiences. I won't go into the dictionary 101 here, but it's important to note- "trans" is a huge umbrella, and "non-binary" is usually included in it. Non-binary itself is a big umbrella, there are tons of experiences contained in it. As you would figure, given that it's literally "outside these two well-known options."

Some non-binary people find a lot of help in hormone therapies, and other pieces of the stereotypical binary-to-binary transition process. Others don't- it varies by person. I'm even technically non-binary- while my transition looks very stereotypically b-2-b, I'm genderfluid- there are days where I'm a woman and it's important to me to be perceived as such by myself and others, and there are also days where I'm agender- "do I have to engage with social constructs of gender today? Really?"

So! On to the McZamples!

Alex is indeed a cis man.

Bobbie is an interesting case. If she wanted to be flat-chested, flat-hipped, etc, and was taking hormones to deliberately produce that expression, non-binary would make sense as a label. On the other hand, if it's just how she was, I'd be wondering if she was intersex- that's the usual term for when someone's primary and secondary sex characteristics, hormone balances, and chromosomes didn't fit a normal model. Intersex people can identify as trans, and some find a lot of self-understanding in non-binary identities, but some don't.

Charlie is probably a trans man- once again, if they chose to take that identity.

Drew is adorable, and deserves pets.

El is also complicated. There are cis men who enjoy wearing dresses- Eddie Izzard, for example. There are also cis men who perform drag, putting on an entire feminine identity for a while. They also could be non-binary, expressing a feminine side- you specified that they were comfortable with a masculine/testosterone-oriented body, so the only option there that's really off the table is being a trans woman. (I have a friend who's the sweetest guy you'll ever meet, definitely a guy, and looks absolutely smashing in a miniskirt and heels.)

Frankie is probably non-binary- their ideal body shape is compatible with neither binary option.

George is probably a cis woman with tomboy or butch tendencies- I'm assuming that they're fine with she/her pronouns, and generally being "that girl who plays football"?

Harper is a cis woman, also with tomboy or butch tendencies- as you've noted, they're now in the mystical land of butch women. Please send me the address and nearest airport code...

Id could take a few different identities- they could be a very femme trans-man, although mainstream western society doesn't really have a role for that. They could also be non-binary, if they wanted to acknowledge and claim a feminine side to their identity.

-Delta Juliette
(Or, She Who Writes Many Words About Gender With Little Provocation McZample)

Yesterday, October 1st, Germany's new same-sex marriage legislation came into effect. From now on, a marriage can be entered by "two persons of the same or different sex/gender". Still, there is a lot of cleaning up in other legal texts that still refer to "man" and "woman" necessary, as well as clarification on wether intersex people, who can opt to have the space for sex/gender to be left empty on official documents and IDs, can marry.

Still, it's a big step in the right direction.

~Ak, throwing rainbow confetti

(Well, Cake Days, going by Thoth's comment.)

Tomash has successfully articulated an interpretation that I could correctly create eight examples from. Which is great! ... so long as it's right. So (and I'm taking your commenting on this thread as implying an interest in saying something; feel free to ignore me if I'm wrong) are you at least able to say whether you agree with his explanation? Which comes down to 'everyone has a body image, if it disagrees with your actual body then you're some degree of trans'.

(Alternately/also, if you think any of the McZamples are wrong, that could be a good way to try and explain things.)

(Or you can just not, if you prefer.)

(But I'd rather be confused than wrong. ^_^)

hS

And it feels like whenever I try I just end up making people more confused than before.

Is that just because you don't know how to articulate it, or are you saying you're offended/upset that I'm asking?

hS

Words are hard, and trying to put words to this is harder.

with the potential caveat that Bobbie could have a gender identity that doesn't match their physical body, and so therefore be rather unhappy about the state of affairs they've found themselves in.

- Tomash

I defined/asked how I was using the terms 'sex' and 'gender' here.

It seems like you are saying that everything except 'gender expression' is tied directly to your body-image: external sexual characteristics, primary and secondary, plus(?) things like chromosomes and hormones which can't be perceived externally, but might affect various aspects of your development. Perhaps an example might help?

Alex McZample exhibits masculine body traits, including sex organs, and doesn't feel any issues with this. Alex is therefore cis-male.

Bobbie McZample has female sex organs, but (due to, oh, probably hormones) is flat-chested, flat-hipped, and grows significant body hair. Bobbie is... non-binary?

Charlie McZample has female characteristics, but feels that they should look more like Bobbie and Alex do. Charlie is therefore trans-male, possibly with male gender expression?

Drew McZample is the cat. The McZamples are a fairly odd couple.

El McZample has male body traits and sex organs, and is fine with that, but prefers to wear dresses. El is... cis-male with female gender expression?

Frankie McZample has female body traits and sex organs, but feels like they should have male sex organs (while retaining the same body shape). Frankie is... non-binary?

Georgie McZample is biologically female (and is fine with that), but wears their hair short and plays football. Georgie is... cis-female with male gender expression?

Harper McZample is Georgie's identical twin, and acts just like them, but has moved to a country where that is the expected way for a female to behave. Harper is therefore cis-female with female gender expression.

Id McZample is biologically female, feels like they should have male sex organs and characteristics, but still wants to wear dresses and makeup. Id is... trans-male with female gender expression?

Of the eight McZample children, how many have I got right? And - other people - how much of Tomash's understanding matches yours?

hS

First off, to clear up my confusion, what are you thinking of when you say "sex" and "gender"? (For the record, I spent that last post staying away from "gender" because I'm not entirely sure what I mean by that word.)

From what I know, if you take a look at humans as a species, you'll notice several sex characteristics, such as chromosomal sex, reproductive-organ sex, hormonal sex, and probably a few other ones. Sex characteristics aren't binary things, but they tend to fall into two groups that tend to be correlated with each other.

One such characteristic is what I could in this context call mental sex[1], which is called "gender identity" (or maybe just "gender", I'm not sure on that).

"Cisgender" is having a gender identity that accurately matches your other sex characteristics[2]. "Transgender" is all the other cases, broadly speaking.

Gender identity, like the rest of these often-correlated things, is not a binary thing. Having a gender identity (what you expect your body to be like) that doesn't fit into the two major categories of physical layout makes you "non-binary". So I think your second paragraph is somewhat off, in that non-binary is defined by what a culture considers a male body and a female body to be, social roles aside.

Now, we as a species have formed cultures that tend to take the two most visible groups of correlated sex characteristics and label them "male" and "female" (recognition of other categories seems to vary by culture). Then, there are generally social roles or expectations associated with being in (or being regarded as being in) each of these categories. Which of these expectations you follow gives you your "gender expression".

[1]: I made this term up while composing this post, and it's possibly misleading or otherwise unsuitable for general use
[2]: More specifically, I think having matching personally-observable sex characteristics is sufficient

- Tomash

... your understanding is that 'transgender' is actually about sex, not gender? Or is that only part of what you're including under 'physical characteristics'?

Meanwhile, your 'condition b' is about fitting in with the culturally-defined male/female binary. That seems to suggest that if someone moved to a different culture with radically different gender roles, they would automatically become non-binary (in that culture), regardless of whether they they elected to fit in by following the roles ('gender expression', as you say). Is that right?

hS

Where did you graduate from, and what are your plans from here?