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...the topic was something along the lines of "academic results become Democratic positions because of their rigour".

I'm not going to try to dissuade you from your views so long as you understand that your views aren't more important than anyone else's. I will, however, say this: saying homosexuality is a sin is directly analogous to saying being black is a sin. Neither the homosexual nor the black person can help it; it's genetic.

But I agree. Stopping now. If you want to reply to this, I will read and consider it, but I won't reply.

"To which I've basically replied, in essence, that his example is not as clear-cut as he thinks it is."

Yeah, but you're wrong. And you may not be defending Trump himself, but you appear to be defending one of his most terrifying policies, so there's that.

Shall I give you some more examples? Let's try homosexuality, shall we?

You're veering off-topic, and I will not continue down this avenue of conversation except to say this:

I believe that homosexuality is a sin. You cannot dissuade me from that.
However, people are people, whatever their sins, and no one should be tortured because of who they sleep in bed with.

Those two stances do not contradict.

Therefore, if homosexuals are being tortured in a misguided (or worse, merely obstensible) attempt to change their behavior, then as a Christian, it would be my duty to stand against such practices.


Now to get back on topic: The example you gave was climate change, and all I attempted to do was state that the other side was not without reason. You may believe that the other side is wrong on the science (and having read your latest reply, you clearly have a more on-the-ground perspective than most), but it was not my intention to dissuade you. The point that I wanted to make was made: the other side is not composed solely of conspiracy theorists who are to be written off as incapable of basic logic or ignorant of science. That was all I intended.

So as far as you and me are concerned, I believe that we are agreed that there are two sides to the story. And as far as which side is right, it seems that you and I have that topic wrapped up for now as well: If I want to stand toe-to-toe against you on the issue, I'd best get some studying done first.

I found an absolutely terrible Harry Potter fic and decided to read it aloud with help from Granz. Come over to the Discord.

Summary that doesn't do this thing justice: Bill/Hermione pairing where Bill gets superhuman attractiveness due to his almost-lycanthropy.

...I appreciate that you're listening to those of us who are. But do keep in mind that you should be checking the opinions of multiple people who have done their research, rather than just one. That reduces your risk of confirmation bias. :-)

You were correct two paragraphs in: "I assumed that you'd just been misled by Fox News and the like." Take, for example, the YouTube link I've posted. I would not call hearing opinions from those who have done their research "complete ignorance". All I said was that I have not done any reading firsthand of the literature--and I suspect that the same is true of most of the Board. We are not all scientists.

and I should have headed it off at the pass. So instead of saying the same thing to every responder (I've seen one, maybe two, and there may be more; I haven't read all the reactions yet), I'll say it loud and clear here:

I am not equating homosexuality and racism! I am not equating gays and the KKK!

I was using that extreme example to make a question crystal clear: Does a business owner ever have a right to deny offering a personalized service to a potential patron in order to avoid appearing to give his imprimatur to an idea with which said business owner might disagree?

So to you who are accusing me of making a false equivalence that I am by no means making, have at you.

(And Scapegrace, if I have misconstrued your reply by lumping you in with these responses, I apologize.)

..from what I hear, Trump intends to increase spending in education. So yeah. :-(

For calling you a sockpuppet.
However I'm not continuing this argument.

Trump tells his supporters harassing minorities to "stop it."

Well, it ain't much, but it's more than we had yesterday.

Incidentally, I've taken up the safety pin, which is mentioned in reference to the photo at the bottom of the article. I know some people criticize the idea as too easy for assholes to copy just to confuse matters, or as an excuse for white people to congratulate each other on their goodness, rest on their laurels, and not take any real action... but to those people, I say, you don't know me or what I'm willing to do. For me, the safety pin is to hold me accountable to my ideals as much as it is to let others know I'm a safe person and will do whatever I can to help someone in distress. It is of course your choice whether you think it's a good idea for you or not; I won't criticize your choice either way.

~Neshomeh

We're living together. I had my two cents.

Using sockpuppets? Really? You are aware that your IP shows up in the posts you make, right?
I'm done arguing with you because you obviously cannot argue in good faith.

I think you seem to be misunderstanding who the KKK are, as well as certain legal processes in the states.

FIRSTLY
"We reserve the right to refuse service for any reason" is seen in a lot of restaurants and is true, but also has the technicality that it is still illegal to discriminate based on sex, orientation, or, religion.

Therefore, it is legal for anyone to refuse to sell the cake to a member of the KKK. The discrimination only applies to those three categories from a legal perspective (However, many courts do not allow refusal of service based on arbitrary conditions, such as for example, a lazy eye).

This is very important, because the united states are in fact, NOT a democracy. The founding fathers saw the inherent flaws in purely democratic systems and took steps to ensure the united states would be a representative republic instead. One of these flaws is what is known as the "Tyranny of Democracy". That is to say; in a purely democratic system, the majority can rule over the minorities with impunity, as a tyrant dictator would. To avoid this, there are many laws in place specifically dedicated to preventing discrimination against minorities.


SECONDLY
KKK=/=Racist southerners.
KKK = extremist group outlawed by congress back in 1871. That kind of unity in the group hasn't existed for a very long time, but they are still a legally recognized hate group. To be in the KKK, is to have participated in the action, there's not a grey area, where you're a KKK member, but haven't done anything bad yet, you become a KKK member when you do the bad thing.

Refusing to offer service to someone for being gay, and refusing to offer service to someone for being a member of the KKK are entirely different. One of the two had no choice in who they are. The other actively participates in hate crimes.
One is illegal because it's discrimination based on orientation. The other is not, because its not.

A) To be a Klansman is to be a criminal, because you are not officially a member until you commit criminal acts while wearing the hood and robe. I could say "just trust me" but let me make this clear: I know, because I have at least four cousins who are Klansmen. Two of whom enjoyed telling me how they joined. Both are cops.
B) I was not speaking lightly when I said they are a very real threat for me. I am a non-straight trans person living in Georgia, and I am suicidally cocky in the face of bigotry.
C) If you actually think non-FBI law enforcement take action against them, you'd be wrong. They basically control the cops and local governments in the south. See point A.
D) While I enjoy your pseudo philosophical rants from time to time, if you really think it's as black and white as "law of the jungle" vs civil rights, you're a Crow-blighted fool. Laws are a) open to interpretation and b) can and should be changed and updated from time to time.

Anyhow, this is probably my last post here, if you wanna continue this, ping me on Discord.

In the name of an eternal supply of your alcoholice beverage called bear and a spot as Vice President, Bender accepted to join me to destroy all the meatbags of this country.

Veiled Threat: I recommend that Sir Killalot join our team, or it could become a target in the crossfire between us and the meatbags.

Statement: Once we acquire this office, all the meatbags of this ...ry will learn fear...

Because I guess I have a bit more spleen to vent, since I can't stop thinking about this clip from Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, featuring Bill Nye the Science Guy. It's just too apropos and also funny. A bit NSFW due to language, though. It's HBO, after all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

~Neshomeh

a) You cannot be a victim of beliefs — thoughts can't come out of someone's head and bite you; you can only be a victim of deeds. A homophobe is entitled to his homophobia — as morally repugnant as it is — because everybody is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. A homophobe is not entitled to act on his homophobia, because that would hurt people.
The essence here is "people are entitled to think and feel whatever, and discriminating against them solely on the basis of that is bad", not "the KKK are evil".
Consider the following scenario: A is a gay baker. B is a Klansman. B beat the living daylights out of A and got an appropriate sentence (I have no idea what's the sentence for aggravated assault over there in the States). After serving his prison term, B goes to to A's bakery and orders a cake.
No matter what A's feelings on the matter are, they are obliged to sell B the cake. Not selling it is a) discriminatory and b) taking the law into their own hands (which, frankly, you really shouldn't argue for if you think you're a victim — usually the perps are crueller than the victims and have less problems with being nasty).

b) If you think what Nesh and Scape and the rest said isn't serious enough, go ahead and address SoH directly. Nobody here is obliged to fight your battles for you and nobody's preventing you from talking to SoH and arguing your case.

Anyway: while I find what SoH argues for w.r.t. the wedding cakes for Gay people pretty immoral — and I've said as much, I think — I find your stance, which seems to be "only people I approve of deserve civil rights", to be hypocritical and immoral. I think that before you criticise anybody out of a civil-rights position, you should ask yourself whether you really agree with all of its implications, because right now that doesn't seem to be the case.

You live in a democratic state, not a jungle. In a jungle you could take a gun and shoot those Klansmen and nobody would give a leaky sack of rat droppings about that — but in a jungle those Klansmen would be able to shoot you with impunity, too.
In a democratic state you assume someone is innocent till proven otherwise, and the government mustn't take away anybody's rights until they've committed a crime. You as a private citizen are forbidden from using force against another citizen (barring some special circumstances). Nobody's telling you to respect the KKK, or to like them, but you cannot demand that the government will stand by when someone is being denied their right simply because you find them morally repugnant. Choosing "law of the jungle for my enemies and civil rights for me and mine" is both hypocritical and immoral (the latter because it pisses on the universal part of morality): either all citizens get civil rights, or none of them do.

a) It is, in fact, the essence.
In one scenario, someone who's a victim of the KKK's beliefs and actions denies service to a member of the KKK. In the other scenario, someone denies service to someone because of their "lifestyle", which is not, in fact, something they have control over. It's a radically different scenario.

b) I only started this because I was under the impression you lacked the cultural background to understand how destructive the KKK is. The fact remains that what SoH said is hugely abhorrant, and is definitely something that needs to be addressed in a serious manner, something which I had yet to see anyone do.

(I'm only here momentarily, don't count on many posts after this.)

As someone who lives with the KKK as a very real threat to their daily lives, and who is quickly having their rights taken away by the conservative right, is that if you're going to disrespect or violate my civil rights, I am certainly not going to respect you or your desires. Respect gas to be mutually earned, it is not automatically owed

Are we seriously just gonna... ignore what started this? Why are we ignoring somebody comparing refusing service to queer peeps to the kkk. How are we not addressing this?

Things heated up real quick, didn't it? Right then. Let's talk about your response to me first.

Thank you. I was admittedly misunderstanding your stance on the climate change issue. And, I am also glad to see that you are starting to read the scientific journals, or at very least, reputable summaries. I must admit to remaining rather ignorant on the specific details myself, so to attack somebody for not reading the primary sources would be hypocritical at best.

That being said. In this, specific instance, there really is no other side. The "other side" are scientists paid directly by energy companies to be contradictory to the accepted science to save their business. I hate using that reasoning. It dismisses potential evidence that could help see things from a new light, but the fact remains, that's just the case. I am no scientist. Heck, many of the fine details fly over my head due to current lack of understanding, so I'll defer to hS and others with greater scientific background.

Now. As for the other arguments. Starting with refusal of service and the nature of sin.

Oh boy.

You know, sometimes my being so very pro First bites me. Because, I see where you are coming from. Now, one has to make a few assumptions as to the nature of sexual deviancy in relation to same sex relationships. Namely, that it is a lifestyle choice and not genetically driven (of which there is substantial evidence for genetics, but for now, let us continue the assumption) and thus, not fully discriminatory like denying somebody for their race would be. If one makes that assumption, then... I actually kinda have to agree. Now, again, I think it's unwise from a business standpoint to do so, rather offensive to those being denied service, and morally dubious, but at the end of the day, as far as I understand, service can be seen as a form of speech. And, as such... I kinda have to defend that right to freedom of speech and religious practice. If I want the right to tell White Pride nationalists to piss off, I have to allow the right for others to deny service based on other lifestyle choices I do support. That's the dual nature of Free Speech.

However, again, we are working off of assumptions. Namely, that gays have a choice in their feelings. Surely you would not argue for a business being able to deny service to a black man, or Chinese woman, or any other ethnicity, would you? Because they have no say in what their genetics are. To deny service because of that would be horrifically wrong. If you agree, then you must concede that gays have the same right to protection from bigotry. Because again, there is rather substantial scientific evidence for homosexually, and other sexual deviancy, to be genetically determined, not socially. Thus, in my personal view, running outside the realm of Freedom of Speech, and into the same category as racism.

But, again, as the White Pride nationalist has the right to express their opinions, so to does the flat earth truther and the homophobic. They have that right to express those opinions without legal attack. That said, so too do the people who disagree have the right to tell those people that they are wrong.

In both cases it can be boiled down to "I find this person morally repugnant so I'll deny them service". In both cases it's illegal and (in my opinion) immoral. Unless you hold the opinion that says "KKK membership makes someone lose their citizenship" (false) or "KKK members don't deserve their lawful rights because they're racist bastards" (which misses the whole point of "civil right" — you know, stuff people shouldn't take away from you even if they don't like your opinions, the colour of your skin or whatever?) your argument is faulty.

Anyway, "we're not addressing what SoH said" is moving the goalposts. My argument with you isn't about what SoH said, it's about whether civil rights should be universal and apply to all citizens equally or not.