Also...

Subject: Also...
Author: Desdendelle
Posted on: 2014-11-01 01:27:00 UTC

While July barks, she rarely bites, and her advice is sound.

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How I could be of use to the PPC by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-28 11:55:00 UTC Reply

Well, everyone knows how I started out as a creative writer (Stu-then-manufactured-bit agents, inconsistent with the established universe, random capitalization,etc. etc. etc.), and I haven't been able to make my writing coherent with the PPC shared multiverse until now, but enough about that.

This particular post is about how I could be an asset to the PPC, namely in the sense that....I don't know how to put this without putting it too bluntly, so let's go with this:

I am the kind of person that laughed at the sight of "For your eyes only"'s infamous baby-talk rape sentence.

I am the kind of person that read through the mission of "C*l*br**N" with a straight face (I would probably read the fic itself if the link weren't broken. And yes, most likely with a straight face too.)

I am the kind of person that stopped reading "Subjugation" not because it was disgusting, bizarre, or hideously, hideously depraved. I stopped reading it because it was boring.

This isn't merely squick tolerance, this is possibly squick...I don't know, squick immunity? (not likely to be true immunity, because everyone has their limits, but close)

I'm not necessarily the type to boast, but I bet I could look at a fic involving the rape and subsequent dismemberment of a baby written in urple prose with a straight face, maybe even get a laugh out of it if it was badly done enough (or had been done in a manner that made it clear that the author fetishes about that).

After writing parts of my persona fic, I've noticed my writing has improved greatly, but I still have problems with my style, which doesn't fit the PPC universe as much as I would like. That, and I'm just a rookie in the first place, even after all the time I've had to improve.

So, anyone willing to help me? Because from the moment I discovered you guys, I've always wanted to write PPC stories because I thought you were the coolest community on the net. Everything about the PPC just screamed "Coolest concept Ever!!!!" to me, and I dreamed of writing for you from the minute I posted my first message.

Sincerely: 7.65x54R

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I'm... rather unclear why you think that's an asset. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-30 11:59:00 UTC Reply

I mean, okay, good for you I guess that you can read horrifying things without being horrified, but... basically, you're saying you can write missions into stories people don't want to read. Only... people don't want to read those stories. So how would it help for you to write a mission into them? Either the mission quotes the story, in which case people don't want to read them, or the mission doesn't quote the story, in which case, what's the point in going into a horrifying story?

So yeah - not sure how 'I can survive toxic gas, so follow me into the chlorine tank!' is an asset, really.

hS

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Some badfic deserves to be sporked for the catharsis by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-30 13:36:00 UTC Reply

Besides, I could cut out as much of the horrifying stuff as necessary (Like you did with the mission of Celebrian, which i'm also sure NO-ONE wants to read the original story).

Whose catharsis? by Huinesoron on 2014-10-30 14:01:00 UTC Reply

If it's your own, then this obviously loops back to 'so what?'. If other people's... well, it feels like you're in a bit of a feedback loop here. You bring along a badfic > people find it horrifying > you spork it to catharsisise it. End result is exactly the same as if you'd never brought it up, neh?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you can't write missions (once you have Permission, blah blah, look at my fancy PG hat which I'm never allowed to forget I'm wearing, blah blah) into any story you like. But... eh. Presenting it as doing the PPC community a favour seems very strange.

And: Clbrn. What people seem to miss every time they talk about this mission is that it's Dafydd's bit set-piece finale. I didn't just up and decide 'hey, let's do a Legendary Badfic!'; I spent fifteen stories crafting a character people loved (srsly, they did), then threw the worst we had at him. It was not something I could have done at the start of his run. People would have just... not read it, because it's Clbrn.

That mission was more about Dafydd than it was about the badfic. Trying to do it with a fresh agent would, I think, have been a doomed enterprise.

hS

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Well.. by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-30 14:10:00 UTC Reply

..A lot of this actually came from me fantasizing about helping Neshomeh and TS spork subjugation. also, really, if there's a badfic than no-one else has the stomach to spork, then I'll probably do it, for my own catharsis.

Yeah, I'll probably use the same technique you used when missioning a worse- or legendary badfic.

Mitts off, "Subjugation" is mine. {= P by Neshomeh on 2014-10-30 16:11:00 UTC Reply

FYI, the reason we haven't sporked it yet isn't because the horror is too much for us two poor lily-livered wilting violets (although, let's be clear, it is horrifying). There are actually two reasons:

1. I had to build up my characters first. See hS's comments above. I mean, at this point people like Nume and Ilraen, I could do it now if I wanted to, BUT:
2. Arguably the more important reason is that making something as long, yucky, and mechanically decent as "Subjugation" into an entertaining mission is hard. In my book, if a mission isn't going to be entertaining to other people, there's no point in writing it, so I've been taking this time to figure out how the heck to do it. I have a pretty decent notion, I think, but the devil's in the details.

We'll get to it when we're good and ready—not because it "needs to be done," by the way, but simply because our characters have a personal history with that monster, and we like the idea of making them go back and face it. If not for that, we could happily declare it unmissionable and let it go without losing any sleep over it.

Never forget that badfic is just words on a screen. What the PPC does is objectively silly and unimportant. We do it because it's fun, not because we're on some kind of crusade. In fact, crusader-types tend not to get Permission, because (a) their writing tends not to be funny, and (b) they freak us out.

~Neshomeh

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To quote Techno-Dann... by Iximaz on 2014-10-30 22:04:00 UTC Reply

“The point of the PPC isn't to be mythic heroes ridding the world of badfic, or even knight-in-shining-armor types cleaning one 'verse at a time - the point is that the agents are borderline-nutcases doing an impossibly large job one teaspoon-full at a time, with half-broken equipment that never was enough for the job, and working in the most messed up corporate environment that has ever existed. And humor, ostensibly.”

Yes, I totally C/P'd that from the Wiki, what's it to you?

Oh, and Nesh, take all the time you want- though I won't lie, I've read all of Nume and Ilraen's missions so many times I could quote from them. I bet quite a lot of people would be excited to see more from them.

*totally not being pushy in the slightest*

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Bravo. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-30 16:44:00 UTC Reply

This is... basically the post I keep trying to write whenever this general subject comes up. All right, not the parts specific to your agents - but the rest of it. So bravo.

hS enjoys silly and unimportant

Okay so basically by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 00:43:00 UTC Reply

You're basically saying that I can't get permission because I hate the actual badfic and try to spork it for self-gratification (Or because it's cool, or whatever), right?

Or maybe it's because my writing style just plain doesn't fit the PPC (The original purpose of this thread was me asking for help on how to make my writing style fit this cool concept).

Fine, you win. It's not an asset, it's the opposite.

Uh, no? by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 10:50:00 UTC Reply

And I wasn't trying to 'win'; actually, 'winning' would constitute you becoming the greatest PPC writer since Jay and Acacia, and stunning us all with an epic series of adventures. You deciding not to write is... the opposite of winning.

Okay, how to make your writing style fit: think of a TV show, like The X-Files, or Doctor Who, or Star Trek, or Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., or what have you. There are three types of episode:

-Monster of the Week. The team deals with a specific event or problem, and then forget all about it.
-Mythology/arc plot. The team deal with something related to the overall plot.
-Series finale. Big massive drama, lots of explosions, character death, trauma, and whatnot.

You seem to be thinking about mostly writing series finales. But even a TV show doesn't make every episode a riot of Stuff(TM); if they did, you'd quickly get overwhelmed. Same in the PPC: most missions are, and should be, Monsters (Badfics) of the Week. Fairly normal, moderately easy reading. If every mission starts with 'I want to tear out my eyes, this is EVEN WORSE than the last one!', then... overload.

So start with Monsters of the Week. Send your agents into missions that don't make them try to commit suicide or break the rules or torture anyone or nearly get killed or - basically all the things that Laburnum was so fond of. ;) If you do that, and do it well, then when you come to a Series Finale, you'll make us cry out, too - in sympathy for the agents we've come to know.

hS

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That's not what he's saying. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 00:58:00 UTC Reply

In fact, it's only been stated that crusader types tend to not get permission.

It's okay to dislike the badfic- we're all here because we like canon. But a good lot of us are also here because we like goodfic, too, and we enjoy humor and aren't quite as enamored of making it a contest of 'who can go after the worst stuff possible'.

The PPC is based on humor, and a love of canon- but a love of fic, too.

When you're implying that you only go after badfic for the sake of finding the worst stuff possible, it suggests that you're not much interested in the humor we like around here and that you also don't have much interest in canon or fanfic either.

It's not a matter of your writing style fitting, but maybe how you approach things yourself.

Please don't get passive aggressive- or outright aggressive-- on this, we're just trying to explain.

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sorry by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 01:37:00 UTC Reply

I like canon and goodfic too (alas, I don't have a lot of time to read goodfic, though).

Got the approach thing, but I really can't seem to help but look for the worst stuff possible. I can make fun of it, but that's kind of difficult (which is why I was asking for help in the first place.)

A little advice by Phobos on 2014-10-28 16:03:00 UTC Reply

If you really want to get in to the style and feel of the PPC, then please stop casually mentioning sexual violence all the time. Seriously, being cavalier about that sort of thing comes off really, REALLY creepy.

And if you absolutely must mention it, then label your post NSFW. I know you've been told that before.

-Phobos

Oh sorry by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-29 01:00:00 UTC Reply

Ummm.... If I labeled my post NSFW, how would people react.

Also, I'm only causally mentioning that stuff to use as an example. I'm really not squicked out by sexual violence (but, as you said, this comes with a price).

Besides (not trying to use this as an excuse), you guys deal with sexual violence on a regular basis. I still can't shake that you're disgusted by that because of the above.

Let me try to be clear. (potential trigger warning) by doctorlit on 2014-10-29 02:06:00 UTC Reply

A few PPCers have written missions involving heavily NSFW material, but that doesn't mean the entire community can handle it. In the initial post, you brought up all of three missions, one of which could not be completed by the authors because of how disgusting it was. There are literally hundreds of PPC missions now, nearly all of which are roughly PG-13ish; and only a handful of the missions of higher rating handle the really offensively squicky material you're talking about. To put it bluntly, missions like that are not what the PPC is about.

Now, the community doesn't have any rules against that sort of mission, and it's fine to write and publish them; that's not what's being discussed here. The problem is that this community may contain:
a) underage people, who should not be exposed to the kind of visuals you brought up in your initial post, and
b) people who, for whatever personal reason, may be emotionally hurt and made uncomfortable by that kind of material. This is called "triggering."

So, how do we protect our fellow internet users from accidentally seeing such material when they don't want to? The difficulty lies in the fact that you and I don't know off-hand who can safely read potentially sensitive and inappropriate material just by looking at their screenames. So we put warnings on such material when we post it to a public viewing area, such as this Board (or any similar message board; this is general internet courtesy, not a PPC-specific rule), so that each person can decide for themselves whether they are comfortable in clicking or not. For example, I added "potential trigger warning" in parentheses to the top of this post, as I am discussing triggering situations. I'm actually being careful not to get too explicit with anything here, but I added the warning just in case, because I don't know who will be reading this, and I am afraid of hurting anyone, or exposing underage PPCers to info they might not yet be mature enough to understand. You'll also note that the missions you referred to, and the wiki pages about their targets, are labeled "NSFW" themselves, for the same reasons.

So, to summarize: Yes, some (many!) PPCers are disgusted by sexual violence, and really only a small fraction of us have dealt with it directly in missions. (Even for those of us who have, this hardly constitutes a "regular basis.") Bringing up this kind of topic can still be hurtful for some people, even when it's only used as examples in discussion. And as for "how would people react?" Well, some people would react by not reading it, and that's okay, because they wouldn't have been comfortable reading it, and they deserve the respect of being given the tools to avoid things that could potentially hurt them.

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I'll mention threads like this as NSFW in the future (sorry) by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-29 02:13:00 UTC Reply

Also, some of those fics need to be sporked, and I seem to be the only one with the stomach to deal with that stuff on a regular basis.

Again, If I write a thread like this in the future, I'll put the proper label on it.

By-the-way by Desdendelle on 2014-10-29 17:00:00 UTC Reply

Another reason for labelling stuff NSFW: NSFW stands for Not Safe for Work and it usually means that if you're caught reading stuff like that at work (or school or whatever) you'll get reprimanded (harshly, sometimes).

I know what NSFW means. (nm) by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-30 01:18:00 UTC Reply

I don't know about "need to be sporked." by doctorlit on 2014-10-29 02:41:00 UTC Reply

If you, or anyone else, can find a funny and entertaining way to write a mission for a squicky bleepfic, that's great. If not, that's fine. There are plenty of badfics out there, and not all of them would work well as a mission. We're not trying to "catch 'em all," as it were.

I only want to write missions because the concept is cool by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-30 01:30:00 UTC Reply

I actually have difficulty finding humor in PPC missions except in circumstances that involve the really squicky parts of worsefic or legendary badfic (typically the agent's reactions to that stuff)

(also, Sometimes the squick is also offensive, in which case it's not funny. ex. girl talks about getting raped in a manner that was meant to fulfill the author's fetishes=not funny because it's offensive. 2 foot-tall cat-person hybrid "Pet" describing rape in baby-talk is funny because it's bizarre, stupid, and kind of funny by default in a dark way. bonus points for clear intent to arouse the author and/or agents react horrified.)

Excuse me? by eatpraylove on 2014-10-31 02:12:00 UTC Reply

You say want to write missions here, and then you turn around and say "Oh, PPC missions aren't funny to me except when the agents are grossed out over a bleepfic?" I can see a few problems with that mindset, guy.

First of all, I spy a paradox. How can you admire the concept of a PPC mission but also have a problem with what makes it a PPC mission?

Second, the Guide to the PPC repeatedly emphasizes that we as a community are about having fun and supporting all manner of goodfic by killing off all manner of badfic. All manner of it, not just the grossest stuff out there. You want to spork the worst of the worst, great, more power to you; just remember that ~~you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour~~ not everyone here wants to read your latest NSFW/NSFB mission.

Third, and most importantly, SQUICK IS NEVER EVER FUNNY. Especially not when it's handled like your second example. I get the whole "find something to laugh at to distract yourself from the horror" thing, but...come on, dude, the character still had to go through that horrible event. Show a little sympathy!

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I don't just target squickfic (NSFW) by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 02:33:00 UTC Reply

You know, I dislike Mary Sues even more than I hate offensive portrayals of sexual violence.

And what people find funny kind of works off a similar principle to YKNMK. besides, the Cat person just plain isn't believeable in the first place, how could you be sympathetic to that getting raped? Especially concerning that it later falls in love with it's rapist (!) and then gets pregnant through it's anal uterus (WTF!!!!11one).

And yes, I want to support goodfic (Concerning I AM WRITING ONE).

Herein lies the problem. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 00:38:00 UTC Reply

"I actually have difficulty finding humor in PPC missions except in circumstances that involve the really squicky parts of worsefic or legendary badfic (typically the agent's reactions to that stuff)"

This, if anything, tells me personally that maybe you shouldn't write PPC missions.

As has been said before, the vast majority of PPC missions do not rely on horrific badfic, or use squick as a point of horror.

It's the stuff that you say you find difficulty finding humor in that's the basis of the PPC as a shared universe and stories set in this shared universe.

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That just means I won't find it humorous.... by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 00:49:00 UTC Reply

...but other people might. for example: the agent working conditions. You find them to be a constant source of comedy, but I find those conditions to be abusive, and therefore not funny.

The point is that I might not find something funny, but other people might, and the other way around.

Except for the fact.... by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 01:02:00 UTC Reply

That you're citing that you find unfunny are the very things that make the PPC what it is, and the things you do like are things that we generally try to keep at a minimum.

Laburnum's missions are not wholly representative of the PPC and are largely on the fringe- to the point that way back when people asked her to ease up on that sort of thing.

When you say you find those things unfunny, it means that a large part of the PPC is lost on you; it's an aspect of its frequent absurdity.

It is what it is.

And speaking as someone who's spent quite a bit of thing in that style of working conditions, while you might not find it funny, I found it funny before I went into the line of work I am in now, and now that I'm doing what I do, I find it downright hilarious. (Even if the sleep deprivation, downright questionable food, iffy mattresses and occasional surprise Deadpool makes me question my sanity.)

-July, being truthful about the surprise canon character

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Heh by Desdendelle on 2014-10-31 06:04:00 UTC Reply

Now that I think about it, the PPC sounds an awful lot like Israeli Rifleman 02 Basic Training.
"...and occasional surprise Deadpool... by SeaTurtle on 2014-10-31 01:52:00 UTC Reply

I sense a story behind this. Would you care to share it with us?

....please?

There really isn't much of one. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 01:55:00 UTC Reply

Just walking, minding my business, and bam, suddenly see Deadpool running by.

-July, definitely doesn't work for the PPC, promise

Still pretty cool, though. by SeaTurtle on 2014-10-31 02:39:00 UTC Reply

I wish I could see Deadpool running around on my uni's campus. That would liven things up a bit!

Give or take. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 02:41:00 UTC Reply

Nooot a university campus, though.

I guess... by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 01:43:00 UTC Reply

..I might have to read some missions by other boarders to get a better picture of the PPC. Also, how did you know that most of the missions I was reading are Laburnum's?

And suddenly a whole lot clicks into place. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 10:11:00 UTC Reply

Let me tell you a story. Do you mind? I hope not, because it's one of the good ones - it's true.

A few years back - this would have been around 2008 - the PPC hadn't much heard of TVTropes. We apparently had a page, but without much on it. Then, for reasons I'm still not clear on, Tawaki and Laburnum decided to expand it.

And I mean massively expand it. Suddenly, it became this huge list of tropes and examples - but all those examples were from Tawaki's and Laburnum's stories. Thing is, Tawaki wrote massive overarching plots, and Laburnum wrote NC-17-rated missions with lots of violence (sexual or otherwise), and neither of them are in any way representative of how the vast majority of PPC missions go down.

But that was what was up there, and straightaway a trend started that's continued to this day: people arriving on the Board from TVT (that's good!) with the ineradicable impression that we're either all about squick (that's bad), or all about big dramatic paradigm-shifting events (that's bad too).

In 2010 and 2011, efforts were made to change things by going through and deleting trope examples that weren't representative of the PPC as a whole, but they fell through - as I understand it, because TVTropes didn't approve of the PPC 'censoring' its own pages. Other examples have (I assume?) been added, but the baseline is still the Tawaki-Laburnum Giant Drama With Sexual Violence stuff.

So no: Laburnum is way, way unrepresentative of the PPC. Read something else as well. Can I recommend Driftwood? [/obligatory plug]

hS

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The editing spree actually mostly worked, FWIW. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-11-03 17:17:00 UTC Reply

Huh. Really? by Huinesoron on 2014-11-03 21:40:00 UTC Reply

I distinctly remembering TVT throwing a hissy fit and reverting everything/kicking everyone off. Did that only happen once, or did I misunderstand (not being involved at all), or... what?

hS

Oh, they fought us all right, but most of it stuck. by Ekyl on 2014-11-03 21:44:00 UTC Reply

There was a lot of drama in TVT during the editing spree, and in fact we had a big row on their forums about it, but ironically Fast Eddie was perfectly okay with it despite my adaptation of the situation to Plort, it was his mods - I think Fighteer and Madrugada - who gave us trouble. Two of us got banned, me and Caddy, and there were some issues with our things being reverted but for the most part it settled down and we got our way. The big edit spree drama kinda died down and the work finished quietly, though admittedly I now avoid TV Tropes so maybe stuff's got worse.

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I've read some of Herr Wozzeck's stuff by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 10:26:00 UTC Reply

And I couldn't find much humor in that either.

nor could I in the sporking of forbiden fruit

or what I've read of SkarmorySilver's first mission.

Actually, I have both driftwood and you favorited in FF.net., so I should get around to reading it.

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Well... by Desdendelle on 2014-10-31 12:21:00 UTC Reply

Might I recommend Neshomeh's spinoffs? I find them highly amusing, even though I do not know all the canons involved. In fact, Nume and Ilraen's spinoff is my favourite one.
You can also try Agent!Huinesoron's missions which aren't the dramatic stuff you get in Dafydd's.

Anyway, most of the spinoffs you've mentioned are heavy on the drama or squick; fobiden fruit is Legendary Badfic and SkarmorySilver's first mission is dramatic-ish.

Give it a shot. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 01:47:00 UTC Reply

It's because I am all knowing.

To be honest, it's because I read pretty much everything back when I started and I kept up with what people published for a long while; I have a good memory, and what you were leaning towards described Laburnum's.

Hers are pretty far out there by PPC standards, and we've largely tried to discourage people from following in that pattern because it's not really what the PPC is about in terms of thematics.

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Oh yeah, I know those! by Iximaz on 2014-10-31 17:45:00 UTC Reply

I actually stumbled upon Laburnum's missions a few years before I joined the PPC and I remember going 'WTF?' to quite a bit of it. (Though it may be because I've only read the first Redwall book and didn't know even more of what they were talking about.) So I just wrote the PPC off as 'just another bunch of crazy Sue hunters'.

God, I wish I found TOS first.

Granted, the missions are great in their own right (and yes, I've gone back and read them since joining), but they really don't represent the PPC as a whole. If only I knew that way back when...

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Everything in this particular line of the thread is NSFW (nm) by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-29 02:08:00 UTC Reply

Wow, seconding the creepy. by Neshomeh on 2014-10-29 01:39:00 UTC Reply

Sexual violence is something that SHOULD disturb you. Going around declaring that reading about it doesn't bother you is in itself disturbing, because it seems like you don't get why it's a bad thing, especially in the hands of an incompetent writer who can't do justice to the gravity of the subject. If you don't get that, you don't get the PPC.

The point of tagging disturbing things NSFW, by the way, is to stop people from opening posts that contain subject material that might get them in trouble if someone happened to be reading over their shoulder at the wrong time. It's common Internet courtesy.

~Neshomeh

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Actually, sexual violence is still bad... by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-29 02:00:00 UTC Reply

...because badly done sexual violence is offensive and trivialization. I don't hate it because it disturbs me (it doesn't) but because it disturbs and offends actual victims of sexual violence, which, IMO, is one of the worst things one can do.

the point is: it's still a bad thing to me just like it is to most people. It may be for different reasons, but we can all agree on the fact if said incompetent writer doesn't understand the gravity of the subject, they deserve to have their fic sporked. (and told about it, but obviously, I would not condone or preform such an act)

Re: How I could be of use to the PPC by november14 on 2014-10-28 13:30:00 UTC Reply

They're plenty of ways. You could MST something (squick tolerance is helpful there) , you could write a history of the PPC that goes into great detail about the events (we really need that), you could Beta for people. Oh, and I recommend you go into the GAFF boards and MST stuff there due to your high squick tolerance.

I meant how could you help me with writing for the PPC? by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-28 14:36:00 UTC Reply

I really meant how could you help me with writing a PPC story (Namely, the style, and the humor involved).

also, I have new agent ideas, but I'm not sure if I can post them, because they come from a very obscure RPG continuum that is pretty much only known in the west by very hardcore RPG fanatics due to the extreme difficulty of it's games, so basically, I appear to be the only one who knows anything about said continua, and I'm not confident enough to check my own work.

I don't know if I can get permission this time, because all my previous attempts have failed (due to the aforementioned manufactured agents). Even though I fulfill all the prerequisites in theory, I can't emulate the style and atmosphere of the other PPC missions, to say the least of my issues with fitting into the multiverse.

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Re: I meant how could you help me with writing for the PPC? by november14 on 2014-10-28 14:48:00 UTC Reply

Being obscure is fine... skarmorysilver's agent rashida's continuum is not known by any boarders other than her author. I myself plan to get permission with agents from the SotINF continuum, which only one other boarder knows. I can help with style, but not spelling/grammar as I am very weak in that. Make sure your continuum is not so little-known you can't find badfic for it, however, if you plan for them to do missions in it.

There is a section on FF.net for it, but.... by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-29 01:49:00 UTC Reply

The (Shin) Megami Tensei section of the pit of voles is nowhere near as large as the one for it's sub-series, Persona.

Yes, you heard that right. Herr Wozzeck and Nord were the only ones on the board to possess an even basic knowledge of persona, let alone it's more obscure mother series.

As mentioned, I seem to be the only one who knows anything about SMT here, mainly because I own several of the games (and yes, for anyone who has played Etrian Odyssey, SMT is made by the same company, so it's just as hard.)

Enough about that. The next part is mostly for my new agent idea (Which only I can grade)

Agent Errol originated from a written lets-play turned possible trollfic that one day mysteriously vanished from the internet, along with it's author (Who is now thought to have been using an alias). He is basically once-troll-possessed version of Flynn from Shin Megami Tensei IV. He ended up in HQ after a plothole originated at the end of his home fic (which was never completed), and was freed of the troll's possession. Unlike other agents, Errol is not allowed to use a weapon (His demons fulfill that role) due to the aforementioned fact that he can summon demons and he was once possessed by a troll (The Flowers do not want him to revert back into a sue).

Personality-wise, Errol is very passive-aggressive (he is normally very calm, but get him angry and the gloves come off). He is still developing as a character due to the fact that his canon self was a blank slate and the troll provided most of the (Bad) characterization in his home fic. he considers himself to not adhere to the twin-binary morality system of his home continua, but when pushed, will say he is Dark-Neutral (no matter what, he has dark definitely as his primary alignment)

Errol usually has 3 primary demons stored in his gauntlet (the gauntlet has a built in universal translator, but the demons also wear them in the event of separation from their summoner).

Closet is a Mot and Errol's primary demon. This reaper conducts himself like a gentleman, speaking formally most of the time. He gets his name from the fact that he (Like pretty much every Mot), hides in his coffin most of the time. Closet's skills include an extremely powerful fire blast, instant death runes (no worries, these can fail, and do most of the time) that come in single and multi-target variations, and magic barriers that can deflect either physical or energy attacks (I plan on using the latter on Rose Potter, eventually)

Dumat is a Seth, and is the second-most powerful demon that Errol has. The massive draconic vile is usually used to close the distance between Closet's ranged magic and Ripely's physical attacks, as he can fight at any distance effectively. he is aloof and somewhat cold, only caring about the mission at hand. Dumat's skills include gun blasts in both single-shot and volley forms (these manifest from his mouth, even he doesn't know why this works), a darkness-charged teleporting slash with his claws and talons that are not very powerful but have a low chance of instantly killing an enemy, a stronger non-elemental claw attack, a single-target instant death rune, and the ability to teleport his allies (but not himself) to safety.

Ripely is a Vetala, and the weakest of Errol's demon compliment. named because his appearance reminds people of a chestburster victim, Ripely is constantly cracking jokes about whatever bizarre situation being a member of the PPC manages to get one into. Ripely's skills include various slashes with his claws and chest-mounted teeth, which include poisonous, dark insta-kill, rusted metal, and single and multi-target variations, the ability to breathe either a weakening fog or a blast of acid that weakens an opponents defenses, and a blast of fire.

I might not ask for permission right now, but I personally think I have actually decent agents this time (the reason I'm not asking for permission now is I'm tied up in some other writings).

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Well, not exactly. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 10:35:00 UTC Reply

You say only I can grade your agent idea: not so! You may be the only person who can determine how close to their canon they are, but anyone can judge how good they are as a character. Remember, people who read your missions aren't going to look up the canon first, so they'll be going purely on the character as written.

And... well. Let's take a look:

Errol. The idea of him not being allowed to use a weapon is interesting, but I don't think it works. We have lots of ex-Suvian agents, so even if you offered a justification for 'use sword, become Stu' (which don't make much sense), you'd have to explain why no-one else has the same problem. And even if that happens - agents are supposed to use weapons that fit into the canon they're working in. Using pet demons is fine if you're in, say, His Dark Materials, but it wouldn't work at all in, say, Star Trek.

That's not to say it couldn't work with some tweaks. I see two options:

1/ The demons take on the form of relevant weapons, staying as close to their norm as they can. So in Lord of the Rings, Closet could be a magic staff, Dumat a bow, and Ripely a sword. Since there's at least one talking sword in Middle-earth, he could even talk back (and if you weave a little galvorn into the makeup of the other two, so could they). But they'd still basically be weapons, and unable to act on their own. In something like Star Trek, you could look at intelligent weapons, or even androids.

2/ The demons are placed in normal disguises, and lose (the majority of) their powers. So in LotR, they might all be elves - much to their chagrin, I'm sure. I can see them trying their level best to get Errol to give them the most powerful disguises possible, and him constantly refusing and setting them as, like, rabbits or something - or, equally, trying his best and bending the rules to make them all balrogs.

Either of those notions (which are just off the top of my head) would work. Carting around actual demons into random verses? That's not so good.

Now, personality. You've pretty much given them one sentence each on this, which... isn't very much to go on. It's like describing the protagonist of The Hobbit as 'short, moderately wealthy, and gets multiple magical artefacts over the course of the story'. Yes, okay, that's accurate - but we don't read about Bilbo because of his height and ring. We read about him for his character, and his character growth and conflicts.

So, Closet speaks formally - are we thinking condescending? Mellow? Above it all? Furious formal put-downs? Insults? How does he cope with the fact that there's a wise-cracking Vetala along for the ride? Or is he wise-cracking as well? How does he feel about being basically a prisoner and pet? How does he feel about having a lot more freedom than he's used to? How does he feel about, technically, having a job?

And so on. I don't need answers to all those questions, by the way - but you need to know who these people are, and how they'll interact with each other. If your missions end up looking like this:

"Verily, I see the Sue," said Closet, using his instant death rune, which failed.

"See? You? That's a laugh!" said Ripely, slashing at a bit part with his rusted metal teeth.

"Focus," said Dumat coldly, teleporting Errol away from an attacking Stu.

"Now I'm angry!" bellowed Errol, and started hitting people himself.

... then you're doing it wrong. Readers want interaction, not lists of traits.

And coming back to Errol: you say 'passive-aggressive', but you seem to mean 'passive, or aggressive'. Passive-aggressive is a term for... well, Wikipedia says 'indirect expression of hostility'. Sarcasm, sulking, procrastination and the like. It's not 'normally calm until you get him cross'.

And then... oh, dear, another Blank Slate character. For some reason, people really like coming up with these. So, how long are you planning on showing him 'developing' for? Two missions? Four? Is it going to be shown through him being surprised by his own reactions? Maybe through him not having any reactions, and having to consciously decide 'right, when Ripely insults me, from now on I'll respond with sarcasm', which then becomes part of his personality? Or... are you just going to say that so you don't have to try and describe his personality? Because that's what usually happens. I'd really like to see something like one of the above descriptions - but I'm not at all sure that's where you're going.

hS

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Also SMT demons do not work that way by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 11:06:00 UTC Reply

Namely they are stored in some kind of electronic device (Thus eliminating the need for a disguise) until summoned.

The agents are for the most part STILL IN DEVELOPMENT. I only wrote them down because of an impulse. this doesn't mean they can't become fully fledged characters though.

Well, fine. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 11:53:00 UTC Reply

But that electronic device, and the demons it contains, is not going to be an acceptable weapon anywhere outside its home continuum. Since you mentioned they have UTs for independent operation, I assumed they were... y'know, capable of operating independently. Particularly since you claimed they were serving as partners for Errol, which wouldn't work if they were absent most of the time.

hS

I propose a contest by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 11:02:00 UTC Reply

Since I've noticed that the characters I create for the PPC are always worse than the ones I create for my own writings, I propose a character contest.

I am proposing this to you because you seem to have graded hundreds of characters in the last decade, but everyone that grades my other characters are inexperienced.

If you choose to accept, expect a GDOC with the traits and some dialogue for all the characters I am currently working on. Then we'll see how many steps above suethor I am. *Chuckles*

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Er... how is that a 'contest'? by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 11:54:00 UTC Reply

I have no idea what you're actually suggesting here.

hS

Let me clarify by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 12:30:00 UTC Reply

Well, as I said, If you choose to accept, I'll send you a Gdoc with information about some of the characters I've created for my other writings and I'll let you grade them.

It's more technically a challenge than a contest.

So... by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 12:49:00 UTC Reply

... you want me to beta your character ideas? That's not a 'challenge', either. You're presenting this as something I'd get something out of, whereas actually, I think you're just trying to ask me to do you a favour. No?

hS

Actually..... by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 12:55:00 UTC Reply

It's to see if my other characters are bad just like the ones I create for the PPC.

??? by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 13:18:00 UTC Reply

1/ That's clearly a 'yes' to my previous question.

2/ Your characters back in April consisted of a terroristic sadist and someone you didn't tell us anything about, personality-wise. (this thread) When you were asked to flesh the latter out, you just copied what someone else suggested. The former, yes, is a bad character - but the latter is just... not putting the time in.

There are good ideas in your characters. But... how to put this? You seem to be building sets of powers and abilities and then sticking a personality on top. That's a good way to make a computer game - but it's a terrible way to make a character.

Do it the other way round. Create a personality - for an agent, for any other character you're coming up with - as if it were for a normal, everyday human being. Then add the abilities and see what changes. Once you have, say, a character with abandonment issues and a tendency to sulk when things don't go its way, it will be a well-rounded character whether you make it an elf who spends decades alone in the forest, a ghost which haunts its old house because it can't let go, or a spaceship which won't let its crew leave. (Or, for that matter, Dream of the Endless, who slots quite neatly into that description...)

This is particularly important in the PPC, where powers-and-abilities tend to be stripped away by disguises. If your character is solely about their skillset, then how are we supposed to recognise them when they're disguised as a teenaged orangutan?

hS

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Uhh...... I'm not just working on PPC characters by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 13:55:00 UTC Reply

in fact, the PPC only composes a very small portion of my overall writing. The most percentage is taken by (you guessed it) a game Idea. after that comes a fanfic. I'm just asking if you would consider the characters from my other writings bad (After I've written and sent the doc, of course.)

Also, DO NOT BRING UP THAT THREAD EVER AGAIN! it makes me want to rage just thinking about it

Yes, I understand that. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 14:09:00 UTC Reply

And the advice you've received from numerous people, including myself, in this and other threads, applies equally to other character settings.

And... frankly? Given how hard you've been trying to present me looking over your characters as a favour you're doing me, and given that you've been going on and on about people thinking your characters bad and are now internet!shouting at me for linking to the thread you've been referring to: no, I have no particular interest in betaing your character ideas, whether you term it a 'contest', a 'challenge', or a 'just asking'.

hS

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You know what: F**** off, all of you by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 14:22:00 UTC Reply

I am so F***king sick of everyone telling me "Oh.. your characters/concept suck(s) dick" or "You need to change this or else your character/concept/whatever the hell WILL suck dick", yes, yes, they all mask it by TRYING to be friendly, but that's what it boils down to.

Every single FREAKING time I tried to show my writing to other people, THEY ALWAYS SAY THE SAME THING: "x about your writing sucks dick" or some embellished variation thereof.

My first fic: bit-sue cross

My first agents: both stus

My 2nd game: unfortunate implications

My second agents: manufactured, and therefore bits

My 3rd agents: just plain "Not good enough"

yes, even the other rookie writers are leagues better than me! just check SkarmorySilver, who got permission on his first try, but every agent I try to create is a F***ing sue (or bit, just you get the idea).

*sighs* Well, down to the point. Goodbye, and good riddance

7.65x54R, Signing off.

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I'm afraid you're hearing things that aren't there. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-31 14:39:00 UTC Reply

The only person who has claimed your characters are bad in this thread is you. All I in particular have been saying is a) you need to say something about their personalities, rather than just their abilities, and b) here's some advice on how to better fit your characters into the PPC setting. If you're translating either of those as 'your characters suck', then you're getting a wildly different message to what anyone on the Board is sending.

hS

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I'm DEFINITELY not the most mature person in the world by 7.65x54R on 2014-11-01 01:15:00 UTC Reply

Because Every time someone says stuff like that, my brain works this way: "I see something wrong with this"="This is horrible."

it's unfortunate, but I just rage like a suethor if anyone tries to give me concrit. *sighs*

Addendum by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-31 14:38:00 UTC Reply

To me, criticizing someone's work is basically the same as flaming them UNLESS it's concrit. so yeah,I personally think what you're doing is stupid now.

Hold up there, sparky. by JulyFlame on 2014-10-31 15:15:00 UTC Reply

Maybe you're feeling a bit too thin skinned to see it, but what he's giving you is concrit. He's suggesting you work from personality up instead of powers down because of the limitations he pointed out that are part of how the PPC works.

You're doing the flaming and attacking here, because you just found out the hard way you can't play with the big kids, metaphorically speaking and you can't trick them into it.

That's not an attitude that's going to do you any good here, much less anywhere else.

You can run and take your ideas and bad attitude with you and find out you're going to get much the same everywhere else you go, acting like that, or you can apologize, suck it up the temporarily hurt feelings like an emotionally stable person who may or may not be an adult, and learn so you can do what you say you want to take part in.

You're the only one who can make that choice and before you think I am attacking you as well, I'm going to point out that I'm being downright nice. It's up to you whether you can improve or not. So long as you want that and aren't going to be a wailing arse about it you can stick around.

And before you whinge about how we're weighted unfairly, pointing at someone else? Check yourself.

I got denied my first time because I tried to jump the gun too quick and it took Desdendelle at least three tries and plenty of thinking before he got permission.

It happens.

So tell me, before you ragequit- what are you going to do?

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never create another agent idea again by 7.65x54R on 2014-11-01 01:06:00 UTC Reply

I give up. you won, It's confirmed my writing style in general just plain doesn't fit the PPC.

And no, I'm not an adult. even if I was, I'd be a very immature one. I have this bizarre, pathological need to defeat myself (Concerning that everyone thinks that A: my writing sucks, and B: my political views would hurt people if realized. it happens in every aspect of my life)

besides, now that I think about it, I don't think that the concept works out in practice for everyone.

So, maybe I'll just hang around the board, but I'll never truly be a member of the PPC.

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You're missing the point. by JulyFlame on 2014-11-01 01:16:00 UTC Reply

No, I did not 'win'.

This may seem strange to you, but I don't actually get kicks outta hitting people until they're down and then kicking them for good measure.

Read over these threads. Think about who's saying what. Slamming on yourself doesn't help anyone, and maybe it's something to take into consideration in the future. We're not saying your writing sucks, just that it needs more thought put into it. I ain't even gonna touch on the politics comment.

But you're correct. Not everything works for everyone, and that includes things like the PPC.

Try to work yourself out, and then give it a shot in the future, maybe.

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Also... by Desdendelle on 2014-11-01 01:27:00 UTC Reply

While July barks, she rarely bites, and her advice is sound.

If I may step in... by Iximaz on 2014-11-01 03:25:00 UTC Reply

I'd like to give some advice. 7.65- can I call you that?- before you take criticism of any kind as a personal attack, reread it several times and wonder if the comment was meant to help or was just outright meant to hurt. Believe it or not, the majority of people in the world aren't mean on purpose, though it sure as hell can seem like it at times.

As for your agents, really take the time to get to know them. Why do they work for the PPC? What are their fears and weaknesses, their hopes and dreams? I had it easy because my agents started out as avatars of myself and a friend, but I know they're going to change the longer I write them.

Start with personalities, maybe. Who would you rather read about: an eager, not-yet-disillusioned-with-her-job agent who prefers to use a crowbar as a weapon because it's functional outside of combat, or a personality-less agent who can smite Sues without having to even lift a finger?

~~Just ignore the blatant self-advertisement kthx~~

What I'm getting at is what others have been saying on the thread. Ask yourself why you want to write a specific agent. What would make them interesting besides their powers?

You're by no means a poor writer; just a little overeager. Chillax. Take a while to develop your agents and maybe next time don't go swearing at people. I promise it won't do you any favors and it really won't endear you to anybody. Nobody is out to make you feel bad. Everyone is their own worst critic.

So let's shake hands and put this behind us, yeah?

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I'm actually going to put writing for the PPC behind me by 7.65x54R on 2014-11-01 06:27:00 UTC Reply

for now at least. I never really had plans to use these agents in the near-future because I'm busy. When I have time I might develop them, but I don't have time now.

Addendum by Desdendelle on 2014-10-31 15:55:00 UTC Reply

Five times, actually.
My point is this, though: ConCrit hurts more than flames. Flames are just "U sax balz", "ur an idiot", etc - people being immature. ConCrit, however, points out what you're doing wrong. Nobody likes that, but the first step to fixing your mistakes is knowing what they are.

Re: There is a section on FF.net for it, but.... by november14 on 2014-10-29 14:13:00 UTC Reply

Your character sounds quite good. Oh, and with the demons/whatever, you may not need a partner. Oh, and by vetala, you mean the indian vampire, right?

Yes, they serve as both weapons and partners by 7.65x54R on 2014-10-30 01:18:00 UTC Reply

Well, technically a Vetala is more of an evil poltergeist than a vampire.

Oh, I forgot to mention: My planned department is Floaters (Namely, because, as mentioned, I could deal with smutfic as well as my preferred badfic genre, suefic)