Subject: Actually...
Author:
Posted on: 2015-12-27 16:40:00 UTC
The whole idea came from this bit where Ix asked me what's that riddle about. I told her that I had no idea and wasn't planning on saying anything concrete because I'm not smart enough to create a riddle profound enough for Lump to obsess over; then she asked, "what if the answer is something silly, like 'a mouse'?" and it kinda rolled from there.
In order (complete with timelines) We thank Iximaz, SeaTurtle, Scapegrace and for their beta services. After seeing the reactions to "Excuses and Accusations" and "No More Mr Nice Guy", Des and Dawn and I have talked things over and agreed to temporarily remove these stories for rewriting. First off, I want to apologize that so much of what I have to say is rather negative. Overall, I think your writing was very good, and I especially enjoyed the first mission. That said, my issues with some of the pieces are far more complicated than my enjoyment of the rest of them, and I'm afraid that I feel somewhat obligated to dedicate rather more words to. I don’t think that this has anything to do with language skills. In the version of the Whoniverse were Gallifrey burned, the riddle and its solution may be a well known text book example for students learning Osirian, probably taken from an Osirian children’s book. (I didn’t check their convoluted timelines, so I don’t know whether the reference "three hundred and… eh, thirty-two years ago" fits the assumption that Arin read the book to little Saa.) When the Reader and the Aviator both recognized the riddle and remembered the answer, they may not have realized that this was the big thing the Librarian obsessed about, because they would never have guessed that this specific book was not so well known on every other version of Gallifrey. The Librarian, on the other hand, took the riddle he got from some obscure source far too serious and never considered that it might be a silly children’s pun. However, I think it's something that should probably be mentioned in-text, instead of just left for the reader to guess for themselves Should everything be spelled out, or is it sufficient to mention that the Reader recognizes the Riddle, although her not recognizing the Riddle wouldn’t change the plot? It obviously depends on which kind of stories you like. Anyone with a rudimentary of Osirian could've solved it, except the Librarian, who is constitutionally incapable of recognising puns. The whole idea came from this bit where Ix asked me what's that riddle about. I told her that I had no idea and wasn't planning on saying anything concrete because I'm not smart enough to create a riddle profound enough for Lump to obsess over; then she asked, "what if the answer is something silly, like 'a mouse'?" and it kinda rolled from there. I think that, in-universe, Lump had a case of Gandalf-at-the-Doors-of-Durin — being too smart for his own good. Which is why I was baffled to receive a reply of 'Actually...' , followed by the ex-verse reason. See? ;) *shrugs* But the way you present it makes me think about epigraphy. Most of the texts studied that way could be compared to pubs and decrets from today, according to my teacher and the ones I saw, and I'm not even talking about actual graffitis like these found in Pompei. It's just like the Librarian thought he was working on his Rosetta Stone, only to discover he was reading some sneaky insult adressed to the Ptolemy who was reigning at this time. It got to hurts a lot. Awesome! Can't wait to read 'em! will clear out my schedule and start-a-readin'. 'Prime Mover': Can't say much about Prime Mover in terms of canonicity; I'm only a casual Star Wars fan, though I should have caught the lack of action. >.> Not that I can talk, but that's *nothing*. Prime Mover: if it was boring, what made you want to do a mission in it? Serious question. (Though I would've complained far more if it'd been extensively quoted; I have a strong and obvious preference for the writers paraphrasing and interpreting badfics.) It didn't seem all that boring at first. Back then, we were caught up in going through and spotting just how many canon mistakes there were; and the mission itself was quite interesting to write, especially with getting to send Kozar in to mission something set in his home canon and think about how he'd react to certain things there. That and all of the other character interactions were really fun to do. I'm sure these are all part of your collective grand plans. I got a little confused at that one interlude, though, cause Rashida's wiki page lists a pending cowrite with Desdendelle also called "Excuses and Accusations". ...things just didn't work out between us two regarding that particular co-write, for a variety of reasons. The mission I'm due to work on with Scape is the one that will fill that particular gap once it's published. Let's begin: Both the Librarian's friends' names start with Moakh-,but one of them went by Noakh. Otherwise you'd have Moakh and Moakh. Kind of like if two guys named James are friends, and one goes by James while another goes by Jim. I should drop these shipping googles though. Or get a decent second degree setting for them.
"Prime Mover" - Mid-September. (Star Wars x Star Trek) Desdendelle, the Librarian, the Reader, and Kozar get a co-op mission that drives everyone up the wall.
">"Excuses and Accusations" - Late September. (interlude) The Librarian’s obsession with the Osirian’s Riddle comes to a head. The results aren’t pretty.
">"You’ll Thank Me Later" - Several days after “No More Mister Nice Guy”. (interlude) The Aviator drops in to check on the Librarian and an uneasy agreement is reached.
And to cap it all off, have some silly fluff!
Was this meant to be "and HG"? Sorry.
If she’s said how she managed it, I haven’t been been informed
Too many "been".
New regenerations usually aren't, in my [knowledge and admittedly] limited experience.
I wonder how the Reader pronounced the brackets.
Slowly, Des got up and went to the console; he muted at and looked at the message attached to the summary.
Should be "it".
... the other bit security guard returning with the body of his comrade and being beamed up the Enterprise ...
Shouldn’t this be "up to the Enterprise"?
HG
Apologies to anyone who was offended. We never meant to do that.
Lesson learned. We'll do better next time.
As a minor criticism, I notice that Des seems to have his own set of nicknames that he uses for people. While that's an acceptable character trait, it gets a little confusing at times, as some of them aren't really intuitive to the reader. I was especially confused by the fact that he calls the Reader Saa, but the Librarian and the Aviator call her Xan.
I have to admit that I share hS's concerns with regards to "Excuses and Accusations." Overall, it just has a strong sense of mood whiplash to it. The Librarian's reaction is so over-the-top at first that it almost comes off as a form of black comedy, and then we go into a very personal exploration of his feelings. I mean, I understand where he's coming from, and I think you did a good job with it, but it just feels kind of uneven.
I also found the specific insults that he throws at the Aviator to be kind of uncomfortably crossing a line. I get that the Librarian's a jerk, but calling her a “whore” in particular is just so strongly and unnecessarily gendered and sexualized that it makes me flinch a bit. Maybe if he was someone cruder I could forgive it, but it didn't exactly fit his character; the Librarian's never shown any sort of gender-based prejudices, and there are several other insults he could have chosen. And I get that the Aviator isn't exactly in a state of mind to object specifically to that, and that it's a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things, but the fact that everyone just ignores it rubs me the wrong way.
Finally, I feel as if there are a few holes in the story. First off, it doesn't really make sense for the Riddle of the Osirians to be something that both the Aviator and the Reader are able to recognize at a glance, but the Librarian has to pour over. It seems to suggest that both of them possess significantly greater language skills than he does; but the Librarian has devoted years to studying this, whereas they only have a casual interest. I could excuse it for the sake of humor in a lighter piece, but considering the serious nature of the interlude, it just feels incongruous. Secondly – and more seriously – how the hell did the Librarian stay out of FicPsych? Destruction of his life's work or not, he just attacked a fellow agent over an ultimately frivolous matter. And from the PPC's perspective, the depression he sunk into afterwards is almost more dangerous. He needs serious counseling, not just from his friends but from a trained therapist. Frankly, the fact that he doesn't get that feels like a serious oversight, and, despite the PPC's many other flaws as a workplace, not one that it's likely to make at all.
I also had some issues with the end of “No More Mr Nice Guy.” I mean, I get that what the Librarian said to the Aviator was unkind, and I'm not trying to downplay the effects of PTSD or anything, but it doesn't seem to match up with her behavior earlier in the mission. I got the sense that she was significantly more upset about the fact that he'd nearly left her and Des to die than she was by his earlier remarks. And she seems to have gotten over both of those instances by the end of the mission. Perhaps if she'd thrown some sort of dig in at him for it later or something, that would have fit better, but as-is, it feels a bit as though the Aviator is bringing up the wrong issue. I'm not saying she should be over it or anything, but rather, that it doesn't seem to really come through how much she's holding it in until the end, and that, in combination with the fact that she was also upset over something that was probably more relevant to Des as well, just makes things feel kind of uneven, as if the two parts of the story don't match up terribly well.
Also making me kind of uncomfortable is the implication that Des responded by beating up the Librarian. Don't get me wrong, what the Librarian did was cruel and uncalled-for, but that doesn't exactly justify Des's behavior, either. Frankly, it comes off as though Des is bordering on abusive. This is especially in contrast to the way he responds to the Aviator nearly being killed by the Librarian. If he assaults her over an innocent remark, then his feelings are prioritized over her safety, but him being rude is deserving of a beating? Again, it feels unbalanced. It comes off a little bit as though the one who's the most upset is the one who deserves the sympathy in any situation, and while that's an understandable perspective to have, it's not really a healthy one. I'm not saying characters should always have to behave in the most rational way, either – but the fact remains that the whole situation feels extremely dysfunctional, and nobody seems to notice. Dysfunctional viewpoints aren't at all unusual in the PPC, but this is a rather more serious example than most, and the very fact that nobody takes issue with it all gives the readers the rather uncomfortable impression that they aren't supposed to see this as dysfunctional at all.
I'm sorry for how long this was, as well as how negative it comes off. You're all excellent writers and I did enjoy reading your missions. I just wanted to make sure that I expressed my concerns as clearly as possible, especially given that some of them stretch into serious real world territory.
HG
Since it is there, it must be significant in some way. Since it apparently isn’t plot relevant, it is either a red herring to distract us from the surprise solution that will be presented later, or it is a hint that the Aviator’s way of solving the Riddle is something she has in common with the Reader, but doesn’t share with the Librarian.
For some readers, it’s fun to jog our brains, trying to find the most plausible solution.
Since I came up with Nr. 4, I can’t decide between it and Nr. 3. Does somebody know a children’s book whit a pun-based riddle where the solution is a mouse?
HG
I don't actually have a problem with 'the answer is really obvious, you're massively overthinking this'. My problems were with what came after.
(This would make the Librarian akin to Blaine the Pain train from the Dark Tower series, who could solve any genuine riddle, but got annoyed and aggravated by puns and 'silly' jokes.
(Has anyone checked whether he knows when a door is not a door?)
hS
hS
On to more serious matters (ish), we will be rewriting E&A and NMMNG. Once I figure how to write about/around Lump (and Des, probably) having FicPsych sessions, that is.
So what's next, dudes? Sonichu? I mean, you've already tackled a lot of the "Big" ones, Ixy. How I Became Yours, Rose Potter...I think you're ready for it.
Unfortunate timing on the release here; it falls foul of a couple of points from The Force Awakens (no spoilers here). You claim hyperjumping into a mass shadow will blow up both you and the planet, which is no longer true; you also say you can't use the Force to put someone to sleep, which we also see. Your mission obviously took place before the movie, so it's fine not to know about those - but it also took place after the decanonisation of the EU, so making claims based on it is a dubious proposition.
As for an actual review: I enjoyed the character interactions, particularly between Des and the Reader. What caught me off-guard was the fact that the entire mission seemed to be dialogue. I'm sure you did describe some of the action in narrative, but it didn't stick in my head. I was watching people reporting what was going on right in front of them, when it would've felt more natural for the narrative to do the telling and the agents just comment when things got weird.
'Truth and Consequences':
This story splits cleanly into two halves ('Truth' and 'Consequences', I suppose). I like the first - I like particularly the Reader's expression of her feelings. The whole “I’m sick of hating you" idea really rings true.
The second half I'm less sure on. I like the way the Aviator reacts to the Reader's revelations, but it feels like I've spent a lot of time being told about how the Reader can't go back to her Gallifrey. It's like having characters repeatedly introduce themselves to each other - yes, they don't know, but the audience does.
'Excuses and Accusations':
Ooookay. So the Librarian's having a complete meltdown and pulling a 'I will shut down so I never get hurt again!' over someone else finding the solution to his hobby? Either this is seriously overwritten, or I'm seriously misreading, or... he's just not a nice character. The fact that the Reader and the Aviator seem to see his reaction as understandable suggests one of the first two. His behaviour - his attempt to murder the Aviator while yelling sexist insults at her - is not something that should've been brushed off and validated by his purported 'friends'.
So no, I'm afraid this one fell massively flat for me.
'No More Mister Nice Guy':
Skipping this one, too irritated by the Librarian right now.
'You'll Thank Me Later':
Ditto.
'TYH: Tales of Regeneration':
I love the premise here: it's one we'd never see on the show, but it is absolutely valid.
And then Naya shows up, and you've just sent me down a rabbit-hole trying to figure out what's going on. So Naya was married to a woman but suddenly has a husband instead - and doesn't react to this at all? Surely that would be worth some confusion and uncertainty. Or is this an established part of the character?
I prefer this version of the Librarian - she doesn't immediately put me on edge, so that's nice. Though with that 'like the Notary used to' line, and the Aviator, I'm thinking Morgan is having fits in the Council: "How come you all keep regenerating? Stick with one body for five minutes, for Omega's sake!" And then someone points out that she regenerated twice in two years...
Anyway, this was what any Ten Years Hence story should be: cute and fluffy, with a side order of 'hey, things have changed in unexpected ways'. Also, small children.
hS
"Truth and Consequences" is going to be the last we'll hear about the Reader's Gallifrey being destroyed, at least for a good long while. The Aviator needed to find out at some point, so we decided to beat the dead horse one last time before leaving it alone.
Des wants to respond to "Excuses and Accusations" himself, though I will admit your points are valid (though the use of 'hobby' is a bit mild; the Librarian's been having to be dragged along after his partner for a while now because he's too busy focusing obsessively on the Riddle to pay attention to hazardous or potentially hazardous surroundings). I'm going to take another look at the story again because right now I'm thinking it was a failure to properly convey the intent on the writers' part. (The Aviator later kind of ignoring the fact he tried to kill her was supposed to be indicative she's still got some major issues, but if that wasn't clear enough, t'was entirely my fault.)
As for the TYH: you'll have to ask SeaTurtle about Naya, but I'm glad you liked everything else. :)
"Oi, Morgan, I kept my last body for over a century and a half, thanks very little!"
-R
((Re: Prime Mover being a lot of dialogue...heh. We did try to fix that; I guess it could have done with even more fixing, going by your reaction. But good Lord, that was one of the most boring badfics I've ever read. We did try to shift it further towards quotes and so on, but... yeah.
Re: the Truth half of T&C, I'm glad that works well! It's actually not the original version of where she was at emotionally by that point--in an earlier version of the plot she hadn't even yet come to terms with what they both did, not really. I'm very glad we changed that back in October or whenever it was; it feels more interesting to me, really, and should be fun to continue with if we ever get around to writing them doing something together as attempted friends...
But yeah. While I do have a Reader and Kozar piece in the works (which is an expansion of an idea I've had for quite a while now) which involves her home canon, it isn't likely to be finished for a while. So... expect it three years from now! :)
And I'll wait for further responses and so on before responding to E&A, assuming I'll still have something to add.
As for the TYH, of course--which premise? The one of someone regenerating into a different gender, or being married at the time? I'd assume the latter for logic's sake, as we've now seen the former, but I'm still curious.
Anyway, I'm glad you liked it :) It was very fun to do, and kind of makes me want to do another one.
~DF))
TYH: The premise I meant was the very start: the ring getting stuck on. ^_~ The Doctor always seems to magically end up in clothes that simply fit... The idea of involuntary sex-swapping due to regeneration is also an interesting premise, but one that didn't register until after I'd written that line. :) (And it goes on the list of 'weird sexuoromance things that can only happen in HQ'...)
hS
By the time we were maybe a chapter, chapter and a half away from where we ended it, though, the badfic was getting wearing. Its MO doesn't really change: it's pretty much 'this chapter is another bare-bones recap/summary of 1-2 Star Trek episodes, possibly mashed together and likely changed in ways that make little sense apart from if the author just didn't bother to check what happened, together with Anakin and Padme and extra OOCness!' The mission itself kept being fun, and there were still interesting things to take from the badfic for the characters and for the mission, but...I'm happy enough to see the back of that badfic by now, especially once we had to go back several times to rewrite pieces of the mission.
Basically: we liked its potential, and it didn't bore me until we were far enough in that it made more sense to keep going (especially since I liked what we were getting for the mission itself) than to find an alternative fanfic to spork. So: no regrets, but I guess now I have a better idea of what will eventually bore me in a badfic! We live and learn. I've learned that missioning with Des and with this combination of characters is fun, but that this is not my favorite sort of badfic to spork if we do something like four or five chapters of it.
Re: TYH: Ha :D Yeah, I guess we wouldn't see that on the show--even when Ten became Eleven, actually, although I suppose Eleven's fairly skinny as well...still, with how frequently Donna pointed out that Ten was 'a skinny streak of nothing' (etc), it could've been funny to watch Eleven going "I can't breathe! Oh." and then loosening his jacket.
(Mainly, though, we should see this in shoes! No way are they all the same shoe size, it's ridiculous.)
The Reader and sex-swapping is interesting to me, partially because, way back when, I wrote myself a note saying I was pretty sure she'd never been male. I found it some time after figuring out she'd been born that way! It gets interesting to think about, especially when it spawns character-specific headcanons.
But yeah. Essentially, the premise of 4R's clothes and jewelry definitely not fitting a Chris Pine!5R properly seemed a, shall we say, logical one; and it was *very* fun to roll with :D
Me, I'm still waiting for a Time Lord on or off the show to regenerate looking at least externally like a different type of alien--oh, wait, I've seen that once. No clue if it'll ever become PPC canon, though--it belongs to the same storyline TYH!5R came from, and the author's been a bit inactive here recently.
~DF
I'm not even going to try to bring forth my usual list of minor errors and confusing statements. Y'all released too many documents at once for that to be feasible. I am going to read all of them, however. :D
Which reminds me, I need to update a LOT of my agent pages as soon as I settle down in DC. Which should hopefully be by sometime next month, if the Ironic Overpower doesn't come knocking that is. :)
-Hurray for more missions with the Reader, and more backstory for Librarian. Will Tablet need a page someday?
-Just... this, there's nothing else to say. Really sorry for their Gallifrey.
-I'm torn between laughing at the sheer ridiculiousness of the situation, and intense pity for Librarian. Did expect him to be burned out because of this riddle, but not like this. Lot of self-loathing too (minor typo, Noakh becomes Moakh when you elaborate his name).
-He could have been a merciless jerk, but judging how well they were going along before, that's still a tremendous progress. Like how both of them go for snacks just before the badfic quote of first date (their first date is the destruction of this PPC badfic though.). And don't say I'm imaginating things, even Tablet sees it (and really needs its own page). Is it really stretching up things that thinking there could be ...someone behind this sentience?
-Sheldon Cooper. Librarian is a Time Lord version of Sheldon Cooper. And now the pairing with Aviator is just mpossible to ignore. Great to see him finally undegoing positive character development.
-First time I see regeneration played for comedy, somewhat, and I fond it really interesting. So this little girl in Voyd's TYH was Ave and Librarian's... Kind of happy of seeing that they seem well, and Reader too, despite the regeneration. Second Librarian sounds interesting, and looks great. I hope to see more of her, but not before a long time, since reformed first Librarian is interesting too. Also hope this TYH will become canon.
All in all, it's a great early Christmas gift, guys. You're always so great at writing.
Oh man, the Riddle. The way the answer to that came about went something like this:
"So, know what the answer to the Riddle is going to be?"
"Dunno, haven't thought of something appropriately epic, and there's always going to be someone underwhelmed by the revelation."
"Why not go the other way and have it be something completely stupid like a mouse?"
And thus an idea was born.
They went for food because they were hungry, not because they were going on a date. Did you miss the fact that the Librarian tried to, you know, kill her in a fit of madness? Or that they still kind of hate each other? The Tablet's just been programmed with a smart mouth; it's like how Zeb enjoyed trolling Rina out of her mind by saying she was secretly in love. And need I mention the dead kind-of sort-of boyfriend? If anything were to happen between the Aviator and the Librarian, it sure as heck won't be happening for a very long time. like in ten years or so
(Though I did write a joke one-off involving an older Elanor and her parents (because seriously, the L/A pairing is so absurd you can't not use it), so that might be coming out sometime in the future.)