Subject: A "No" and a "Yes".
Author:
Posted on: 2017-05-25 11:12:00 UTC
If Bramandin really wants Kelly and September moved to "Out of Continuity", she has to find somebody else to do it for her. For obvious reasons I can’t appear to support revoking Permission for not following the Permission Prompt Guidelines to the letter.
On a meta note, Tomash should be allowed to post here.
HG
I apologize if this is hard to understand. My thoughts are normally scattered, but I can't calm down. I'm shaking, and shouldn't have drove. I'm feeling suicidal.
I'm sorry to have lied to you. Keep in mind that I have been here since February of 2016.
zdimensia is a myth. That the PPC never did anything to provoke her is a lie.
Unblock my IP so that I can talk to you from home. I must be allowed to speak.
I think that this thread is done. If it isn't too much trouble, you can block me.
I am to work on myself.
I think that I should stay away until September, perhaps longer.
The following IP addresses have been blocked:
72.215.148.50 - source of 304 posts between February 2016 and May 2017.
72.218.246.58 - source of 100 posts between the 22nd and 30th May 2017.
Between them they cover 404 of the 473 posts attributed to 'Bramandin' or 'Bram' on the Board. Most of the others seem to be attributable to a string of IP addresses used only in early February 2016, when Bramandin joined; based on the addresses, it seems likely she was travelling when she first posted as Bramandin.
The two blocked IP addresses will remain blocked until there is a community consensus to unblock them.
As stated, blocking non-banned users is not currently in the Nameless Admin's authority.
At the moment there are five people (excluding yourself) supporting such an action directly. I will examine the rest of the thread to determine if there are sufficient others to suggest a consensus.
If any other users feel that this is an acceptable use of Nameless Admin powers, they are requested to comment here.
Excluding Bramandin, the following people have implicitly agreed to the Nameless Admin being permitted to block Bramandin: Tomash, doctorlit, Hieronymus Graubart, Novastorme, Edhelistar, Huinesoron.
If three more approvals are given (taking the total to nine) with no disagreements, the Nameless Admin will block Bramandin's current IP address, and the one she used prior to this unblocking.
This is not a request for approval of the proposal itself; just of the Nameless Admin being permitted to block Bramandin without a community ban.
Haven't got involved, but I've been following along and completely agree with what Nesh stated below.
"Please block my IP(s) to help me maintain my resolve to stay away" (as I interpret this) seems like a reasonable request to me.
~Neshomeh
I don't see a problem blocking someone's IP at their own request, odd though that request may be.
-Phobos
If you have mental problems, you should voluntarily (or submit to a request to) leave until the issues are resolved. It is the {crazy person's} responsibility to make sure that their disability doesn't cause discomfort in the community.
Obviously that needs to be re-written. I apologize for using insensitive language.
This is not meant to undermine the article in the constitution about not discriminating.
Between this, your post to laggycat, and some of your comments on the Concilliary, you have developed a bad habit of going 'I have been told to do a thing; I will now tell everyone they have to do the thing, and keep shoving the thing in their faces'. I don't know if that's how you meant it, but that's what you're doing.
You are an exceptional case. You have proven yourself to be nigh-impossible for anyone to reason with or get to understand something. A heck of a lot of people want you straight-up banned, but some of us are willing to let you take the leave of absence you volunteered to take instead, to let you sort yourself out. If you keep up the 'I'm so mistreated' vibes - and especially if you still show them when you return - I for one will definitely reconsider.
hS
I should adopt the attitude that everything that happened was my fault. It is not completely truth, but I should try to accept it anyway. Failing that, I MUST forgive the board of any perceived trespasses before moving forward.
I accept that I am exceptional. I am special as in special education. Most of the "rules" that I should operate under are givens for just about everyone else.
I will shut up about it.
I apologize for seeming to be impossible to reason with. I am listening. There is still some lingering "treating you as you've treated me" going on; I will break that habit and start fresh.
I get the feeling that there are some things that I've done as Bramandin that should be apologized for, but I can't identify them. If you want an apology, now is the time to point it out. I truly do not understand.
When I come back, it will be as TooPurple. This is not meant to confuse anyone, but it will be symbolic of me separating myself from the past. http://www.tarot-reading.net/tarot_cards/major/13.htm I should stay away until I am reborn. zdimensia and Bramandin can be treated as ghosts.
I haven't slept well since my Monday freakout. ((Don't get me wrong, it was pre-planned, I was just not calm when I did it.))
I think that I should not communicate anymore until my sleep schedule is normal.
I think that I should be given another chance after everyone rests.
I also think that no decisions should be made until after I return.
I might close my Bramandintook account for the while. I cannot guarantee I'll check my zdimensia account.
July can have my phone number
Neshome can have my phone number
Huisoren can have my phone number
Nameless admin can have my phone number
Ozzie can have my phone number
Skarmory can have my phone number
Miah can have my phone number
I understand that you are trying to improve, I really do. I understand as well that you wish to take a break from the community, get help, and try to improve your mental condition. I feel the same way to some degree.
I also understand, however, that you have tried to talk to me for a while now with beta requests and chat messages and replies to OTHER PEOPLE about your issues. It seems like you're making the same mistake I used to, in that you are trying to seek attention from us so, in your view, we can act as a sounding board for your problems. Ordinarily, I would indeed be willing to try to help, since I have after all been in your shoes before. But that very fact is also why I believe you are making a very big mistake here.
I worried about the potential backlash against me to say this to you publicly until now, but I will say it anyway: I'm not in the mood to deal with you. Never have been, never will be. Your first Permission attempt, even without my disastrous involvement in it, resulted in me beginning to lose trust in you, and even after gaining Permission - as a sockpuppet no less - you have ignored concrit, refused to apologize for being disrespectful, and now outright harrassed another Boarder to get them to listen to you. All of this has made me very uncomfortable with the prospect of interacting with you, which is not something I want to say to another Boarder. I also don't have the time to deal with you because I have my own IRL things to worry about, and the last thing I need is to let my anger get the better of me and fuel the fire once again - if it already is as I type this, I apologize in advance to both you and the Board at large. That is not an excuse for any of your own behavior, though, and the new revelations related to you over the past few weeks have further tarnished my faith in you, and this is coming from someone who WANTS to see you improve. As it stands, though, we are not the audience for that.
If you planned to send me your phone number, don't. Period. If you still wish to send me an e-mail, please wait until I get my own Duckletts in a row and feel more ready to handle this predicament, which I believe is inevitable given that I beta read for you before. For now, though, if you want to take the time off to regroup, then just GO. And in the event that you do, I hope you find something more constructive to take up your time.
I feel that I should defend myself. I feel like I should dispel the zdimensia bogyman. I have accomplished that the mistakes have been acknowledged. I feel that this is not closed yet.
I acknowledge that my presence made your introduction to the PPC rocky. I acknowledge that I remind you of past mistakes.
I do not want the PPC as a sounding board for anything other than writing problems. Though it was because of them that I discovered that there might still be something wrong with me.
I apologize for all the beta problems. I especially apologize to Skarmory for jumping-the-gun, and I have learned from that at least.
You are under no obligation to help me, even after the Duckletts are in a row. I'll look for a support group or something. I mean that with no malice, and you are welcome to choose to contact me.
For the fear of potential backlash: You are saying it clearly and should not be chastised.
I am still very confused at what went wrong in my initial permission attempt.
Maybe I didn't ask people to make themselves clearer in the proper way. Maybe there was a preconception that I should be angry when I knew that I wasn't going to make it on my first attempt.
I am also confused about a lot of what you are accusing me of. I might have missed responding to concrit. Or did I do it wrong? In my mind, it's "I agree with you. I'll work more on that thing that you pointed out." There has been very little "I'll leave it as-is because of reasons" on the board.
I do remember asking why they took a void and assumed malice, in reference to one of my characters. I still don't understand.
I think that it was your subconscious making you distrust me. Either you recognized me, or you recognized yourself.
I am still unaware of when I was disrespectful and what I should apologize for.
As far as harassing them, I was unaware of that social construct, and thought that they were being rude. What I was after was information on what I should apologize to them for. I have learned from that. I think that the board also learned from that.
This is what I and probably several others are worried about. You aren't dispelling a bogeyman. You're causing another incident and proving the people worried about your behavior right. Could things have been handled better? Probably. But making the same mistakes again and again after they have been patiently and impatiently explained to you is not the fault of the community. That every other thread involving you in recent weeks has gotten bad enojugh that punishments had to be considered is not the fault of the community.
You feel you should defend yourself. But you've been on the attack for most of this thread. You seem to want the community to validate Zdimensia's actions and say that what happened before was wrong. This is simply not the case.
Your question on why your first permission request was denied is answered in that thread, in the post denying it. HS has posted it further down the chat, but the summary was that your request was incomplete and you weren't prepared. When it was denied, you made changes in the same thread instead of taking time to revise and reconsider.
You are showing disrespect by saying that the reason why someone, in this case Skarmory, is distrusting you is because of issues in their past, (Apologies to Skarmory if this comes out as rude) rather than because of your behavior. To make this matter clear, I have issues trusting you because of how you have behaved.
In the recent weeks, I had determined to tell the truth, but was waiting for something beyond my control to happen first. I recall only one incident, which was handled in a very proper manner.
There was also another issue in the outside world, which may or may not be relevant here. (Note to self, AdDCr.)
In the non-recent weeks, I have made mistakes, but I've given my full effort into not making them again.
I just read your message explaining why you intended to send out your number in the first place. That seems somewhat more acceptable than, well, outright stalking. Emphasis on "somewhat", though - we literally just dealt with private information being mishandled two months ago, and I certainly don't need a repeat of that. If I did misunderstand things I apologize for going overboard, AGAIN. Regardless, I can't really help you, and I don't feel like doing so save for the obvious advice to see someone about your issues, because we aren't the right people to help you with them.
Please leave me out of this drama from now on. I can't trust you anymore, not after this entire thing.
I was intending to close Chrome for a few days, which would have made it hard to contact me. I did not want to appear to be ignoring you.
My choices of the names does not mean anything. I didn't want my number to be withheld simply because one person stepped out.
I was not implying that I wanted someone to call me. My intent was only that someone could tell me to check my email if I needed to respond.
with being on a list of people to have Bramandin's phone number. I do not believe that Bramandin has good intentions in their interactions with the PPC. The complaints Bramandin puts forth here are near identical to the ones from years ago. There is no demonstration of acceptance of personal wrongdoing on their part.
I feel like every interaction I have witnessed since returning is manipulative with the purpose of attaining recognized victimhood. This actually seems to be a near obsession, that the PPC must be forced to admit that they victimized ZDimensionsa years ago and then to proceed in giving them the attention they feel they deserve. All the attempts to make themselves seem like the reasonable one(the posts below for everyone else to wait until the dust settles), and the more mature one (see the posts they are still posting on the Grand Concilliary the last couple of days) are, in my opinion, just bait to get everyone to let them by with their behavior. Any apology they give is just a ploy to get them clear for a little while to attain what they actually want (see the beta request they have thrown into this thread. I have observed that several threads they have begun with high drama and then roped people into feeling sorry enough for them to attempt to beta for them after they had just behaved badly toward their betas).
I do not buy the argument that it is a misunderstanding at this point. It has been explained, many, many times, and Bramandin has explicitly stated in her email thread that she intentionally manipulates the folks here. This is what people who are emotionally abusive do. They turn everything around until they are the victim. They demand apologies from others for their behavior. I am too tired right now to go through all the posts again to link it directly, but I have the distinct impression that some of their posts fit well with the concept of 'negging'.
Undoubtedly the next response from her will be a nearly incoherent, non-sequitur filled rant that indicates that I am a horrible bully. I am saying undoubtedly, because that is the exact pattern of behavior that has been followed since 2014.
I believe that my questioning of their motives did not come through strongly enough in my earlier post. Or maybe it was my stated desire to not cast a vote due to my relative newness and I had not read the email thread yet, so they have now cast me as being on 'their' side. For explicit communication here. I am not. At this point if it comes to a vote, if my vote counts for anything, I will vote for a ban. I do not believe Bramandin is good for this community or that their intentions are in anyway good.
I feel very strongly about what I am about to say here. Being autistic is no excuse for their continued behavior as being autistic does not in any way mean 'incapable of learning'. A mistake may be made in entire innocence one time, but once it has been explained, it is arguably not made in innocence the second time, and definitely is not made in innocence after the fiftieth time it has been explained. It also does not mean, 'callous disregard for others as emotional beings'. It might mean that the person gets through an entire conversation and only hours later realizes that the other person was upset due to poor reading of the situation, but does not mean that when they realize the other person was upset that they then feel nothing for the other person.
Autistic people are not sociopaths.
A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.
I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.
I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's
Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.
From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)
I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.
- Tomash
(Delta's note: Expect a reply from me in the near future!)
(My bad, I missed a tag in the copy-paste)
Subject: I don't like where this is going
A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.
I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.
I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's already done that. (Incidentally, I think the second post I linked there is evidence for very confused!Bram).
I think an apology, or at least an admission of wrongdoing, is is order for the manipulation of the Permission process. However, I'm retracting my call for a Permission revocation, since, having thought it over, the broader category of "fraud upon the Permission Givers" (for example, putting together a Permission Request intending to write a pair of very Suvian/grimdark/... agents instead of the more reasonable characters described in the request) I was thinking of is very slippery and either leads to revocations for "bad writing" or is impossible to prosecute unless someone admits to doing it. Either way, it's bad (or, at best, useless) precedent, so let's not go there.
Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.
From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)
I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.
- Tomash
...are very divided. I shall present these as a dialogue with myself:
Delta: I think Tomash has a point. I don't think Bram is acting maliciously, and... this smells a bit witch-hunt-y.
Juliette: But on the other hand, I agree with Phobos, from a constitutional analysis, some pretty fundamental behavioral guidelines for the community have been solidly broken.
Delta: To pick a specific point, I think that Phobos's charge of sockpuppeting, though technically true, is both past the statute of limitations and wasn't done maliciously - zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point, if I'm reading Bram correctly. And... that's been a thing that's been done before, IIRC. hS has done so, I have done so, a couple Veteran Members of the Community have created sockpuppets for the specific purpose of stepping completely outside of oldbie privilege and throwing their voice into the milieu to see what happened.
Juliette: Sure... but that was done for specific purposes, and when the experiment ended (days later, rather than years!), the experiment was explained and data was discussed.
Delta: To expand back out to a more general argument, I don't think that Bram has done anything out of active malice - the heat of the moment seems to be a longer-lived concept for her, and she lacks communication skills that those of us who are closer to neurotypicality have, but... that's not being malicious. Should we really ban someone for Not Getting It?
Juliette: But that's it. She Doesn't Get It, or so it seems, and that includes not working with the many people who have offered to help. And that's not something we can fix - I deeply appreciate the PPC's utility over the years as a space where we have helped people become more mature, understand themselves, and so on, but that process is voluntary and I don't see Bram accepting that help.
Both: Bottom line, I don't think that her being here, in her current state, is good for her or for the community. It's not an at-fault situation, it's a fundamental mismatch of communication skills and technologies.
Ideally, I would like Bram to work with a mentor/advisor on communication skills. It could be one of us. It could be me! I've volunteered, she knows how to poke me on Discord. I would like her to acknowledge that she needs some guardrails, that this chunk of road is twistier for her than it is for other people. I would like to see her learn, and grow, and become an awesome member of this community.
But I don't think we're in an ideal situation. I really, really dislike swinging the banhammer in this case, it's not at all as clear-cut as ypurs were. But I believe that the current situation should not be allowed to continue. I believe we have given enough offers of help, given enough additional chances, had enough of this sort of conversation.
Ultimately, I believe that a banning may be necessary, in the interest of cutting off an interaction that is clearly hurting Bram as well as the rest of us.
I left the channel because I harassed someone. I cannot privately poke you without an invite to the PPC channel. I tried, and the software rejected me.
Why am I not surprised that you seem to struggle with this concept?
Was it right after I chose to leave Discord, following the harassment incident?
Or was it in the last week, when I couldn't access Discord anyway?
This is like my yelling at the walls and getting answers back from the nightmare PPC.
I am unaware that I was banned from Discord. I asked to be removed, (I don't remember any conditions being attached to when I could come back.) and then figured out how to remove myself before any official action.
Okay, so the main thing is that this situation with Bramandrin is actually very much reminding me of someone I used to know in the FBA (who I won't name here: if you want to find out more, you can DM me on Discord for more specific details). I actually mentioned this to Tomash on Discord a couple days back, but I'd actually describe this person as "Bramandrin, with a much better grasp of social norms and a huge anger management problem". The other main difference I can think of was that the person in question was also allowed to get into a position of authority there, and I will say, that wreaked havoc on everything: when this person finally left the FBA, they did so in an outburst of drama fueled by something that I won't talk about here (mostly because it is an incredibly long story that's not relevant to this, and partly because this person had also quit the position of authority in question twice in a row over much less anyhow).
So you might be wondering what the common thread here is. Well... for me, judging from things Bramandrin said in a previous thread related to this, these two people both suffer from untreated mental illness of some variety, and it is mental illness that, to be honest, does require professional psychiatric help. Anyone who tells Bram she doesn't need the psychiatric help is willfully deceiving either her or themselves at this point.
So my suggestion is this: regardless of whether or not Bram gets banned, my previous experiences make me feel it will be to both her and the PPC community's benefit if she seeks out psychiatric help. And Bram, if you read this, I know you may think you may not need the help, but trust me: you need the help. Your behavior is not normal, and psychiatric help can give you a better idea of how to excise your present unacceptable behaviors. This was something the former FBAer in question really should have gotten years ago, and I'm going to mention it here before we get too far down the rabbit hole of banning folks.
The issue is, I don't know if this is something we can necessarily enforce. But no matter the case, I really honestly think this is the only way forward in this case. If that doesn't work, who knows, but I know from past experience that if she doesn't get help, it could be a bigger thorn in the PPC's side than I really think you guys want.
-Herr
*picks up the mini-boarder* (My name's Narnian, so it looks like a dragon.) ((Non-sequitur, look up my name, and you might find a wiki article that explains why I chose it.))
I do intend to ask to have my IP temporarily re-blocked after this thread is finished. (If that's not too much trouble.) Not as a silencing or punishment, but as a precautionary measure until I heal. Just as you would put a cast on an arm to keep it from moving until the bone knits.
I think that banning me would be bad for the community, to set up a precedent of rejecting people with mental health issues.
((It would also symbolize that the community values protecting itself above all else, even a person's life. The way to make up for the past mistake is to give me an honest second chance.))
I do need to leave for a while. Not really a ban, no clock, just to go fix myself before I try to be part of the community. I realize that if I am disruption, (on my future actions, not because of the past,) it would then be right to remove me.
First, from Tomash:
"Subject: Given this post, vote change
Bramandin has agreed to her temporary, but indefinite voluntary departure (with IP block enforcement!) from the PPC so that she might work on her mental difficulties after this thread ends. I support this.
However, I'd like to modify the proposal slightly: lifting this block should require some indication (either made privately or by posting from an unblocked IP) that Bramandin has, in fact, made progress on, to put it vaguely, Getting It.
In other words, my new proposal is for a voluntary (and therefore not as precedent-setting), indefinite (but temporary) block, which shall be lifted upon receipt of a request that indicates some (not necessarily massive, but more than tiny, unless that's all that's needed) improvement in Bramandin's ability to interact with the PPC.
(To extend Bram's analogy, I'm proposing this modification because, when you have a cast on, you can't take it off just because you feel like your bone isn't broken anymore.)
I again, for the record, agree with Bramandin's concern that permanently banning her sets a bad precedent regarding bans for mental health issues. My proposal above is just at the line of what I'm OK with in terms of what we decide, mostly because it's basically voluntary and there's some externally-observable measure of progress we can use to lift the block once it's no longer needed.
Bram, I wish you the best of luck in your future and hope to see you have more productive interactions with the community eventually."
Then from me, doctorlit:
Bramandin, I am very proud of you for deciding to leave temporarily. I think it's a very good choice, and I hope it does a lot of good for your health! (Also, that's a very clever screen name you picked! I'm disappointed with myself that I never thought to search for it to see what it meant.)
I want to throw in my support for Tomash's proposal. I think it's fair to both Bramandin and the rest of the community, and just generally reasonable all around.
—doctorlit
1/ Tomash, I'm sure I've said this before, but: on the Board, IP blocking is only used when they won't leave by themselves. It isn't a higher level of ban, despite a fair number of people thinking it is. It's just technical enforcement, and applies to every ban.
2/ With that in mind, the Nameless Admin will block Bramandin's IP address at her request, if there is broad consensus on the Board that this is an acceptable use of Nameless Admin access. I refuse to extend the remit of the Nameless Admin one iota off my own bat.
3/ The 'indication' proposed will not have anything to do with the Nameless Admin, who doesn't have that authority. It is vested in the Board/the community as a whole. And more personally, I don't want it to be made to or through me.
I'd also like to throw in an additional proposal, not dependent on this one, that Bramandin voluntarily go through the Permission process again (after said 'block', if such occurs). I think it would be good for her as a writer, and would allay the issues people have with the way she handled it last time. (If accepted, this would mean she couldn't write or publish anything until after doing so, but wouldn't affect her previous writings.)
hS
"To 1): I used "block" because it was a technically accurate word for what I was proposing and because it wasn't "ban" (which didn't feel like the right word at the time). I didn't mean to imply that a block is a super-ban or anything like that. Sorry about the miscommunication.
"To 2): It seems that having the Nameless Admin block people who /ask to be blocked/ is a reasonable and obvious extension of their powers as currently defined. I don't object (probably wouldn't have proposed it if I did).
"To 3): Yeah, the unblock would be a matter for consensus. However, I envision that the unblock will have a smaller threshold (no one commenting is approval, for example) than, say, a ban or a constitutional amendment.
"- Tomash"
Since people can't decide whether or not my permission should be taken away, I renounce it.
However, I will not "not write." I will focus more on interludes, and even trying to find a permission prompt that will work with my vampire, and realize that my missions will need severe re-writing or even to be scrapped once I do have permission again. I already had five missions with my "bad" team that need to be completely rewritten or thrown away.
I am learning a lot by writing, more than I could just by reading.
I will not publish, and acknowledge that my writing is not canon to the PPC. I do ask for the loophole that I can ask for concrit outside of members of the board.
As said elsewhere, you can write whatever you want for the drawer. But anything written at a time when you have not been evaluated as capable of writing for the PPC (based on knowledge, writing ability, etc) should not at any time be published as part of the PPC canon, without revision after you have been evaluated etc.
I approve of your recognition that you're learning a lot by writing. That's how it should be. But what you write while learning doesn't always need to be shared.
hS
I think that this is most of what I needed from the start. Just that I could write whatever I wanted, but not all of it would be approved.
That I could get feedback was the most important thing. And it was something that I was not getting properly, both my fault and yours.
Permission to publish wasn't really on my list of wants at the beginning. It still isn't that important to me to be recognized as PPC canon, but the seed is there.
...but this has my support. I don't know Bramadin very well and my limited interactions with her hadn't been negative (nor positive for that matter), but my experiences from the last year and the current months of this one, tell me, we should rather give her a chance to seek help.
I did not, by August I felt so bad I stopped posting here and by October I was so deep, I considered suicide. Yeah, I didn't had an exactly fun time in my time off the Board.
So that's why, I plead to you all to consider this proposal.
For days I tried to put my conflicted thoughts into a coherent post, or set them in dialogue like Delta Juliette did, and I procrastinated and neglected the Blind Beta Workshop I wanted to contribute to, and I feel that my life is easier when I don’t have to deal with Bram, but I don’t want her banned.
I guess all I still have to say, is "Do it that way".
HG
I really appreciate your contribution, actually.
What makes you think zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point? I was under the impression that zdimensia was just their normal screen name so, if I missed something, I'd like to know.
-Phobos
On rereading, I don't see what I thought I saw - I was reading this post and this post to suggest that they were doing something different with zdimensia, to specifically test the waters around Permission. But I'm not seeing that now, and I don't think it's there to be found.
I still don't think Article 14 is applicable here, at least in spirit - I'd always thought of that one as specifically to be thrown at sockpuppets, and that ban-dodging with a new name was just Understood To Be Bad.
I also don't think it's a terribly important technicality to get caught up in - it's not the point that your posts or mine hinge on.
I think what you're referring to is in Neshome's email chain.
Bramandin wasn't just a sock, but a mental state as well. While not perfect, I was in the mode of "the past doesn't exist."
I didn't have to have problems with the permission prompts as Bramandin. I could have changed a character who wouldn't do something into one that would.
When I refer to zdimensia as a myth, I am talking about the deliberate jerk that you believed her to be.
I apologize for making you feel uncomfortable.
How is admitting that I made mistakes too "no acceptance of wrongdoing?"
I have the feeling that you are trying to twist my words around and build up the myth that I have intentions of being a jerk. You don't know what's in my head, so please don't have the preconception that I am evil.
The more mature posts are genuine; they were when I was casting my hurt aside. I will cast the hurt aside permanently.
I am satisfied that you didn't mean to hurt me and that it's been acknowledged that I was hurt.
I'm sorry with the beta thread. I took something literally and thought we were done here. I'm not out to get sympathy.
I have been dishonest, and I am sorry. I didn't like it and I never want to lie again.
I am still unaware of the problems people seem to have with Bramandin. I am trying, and people say that I'm showing improvement. I am not negging, and my compliments are supposed to make people feel good.
The non-sequiters don't feel like non-sequiters to me. I am keeping an eye on them.
What have I said that makes you think that I think you're on my side?
I'm trying not to use my disability as an excuse. And I am learning. I just keep making new mistakes. I do feel for you.
To be fair, my own contributions were a fit of irrational rage, followed by a few attempts at beta reading and trying to get her to see sense. The Board had every reason to shut down the first one, even if that was when we were under the assumption that she was separate from zdimensia. Even then, though, her reply to my e-mail apology was an attempt at blame shifting, so I can't NOT fault her, especially not after, well, this.
With that being said, I'm now changing my vote to in support of the permaban. This behavior is just not welcome here, nor do I think it should be.
This is getting close to (if not already at) ban territory, IMO.
Elcalion
I can't think of any reason I would want your phone number.
You have demonstrated here, in what is currently your most recent post to the Board, that you still - after three years - do not understand what you have done wrong, despite what must be tens of thousands of words by now explaining it to you. Are you proposing that sorting out your sleep schedule will somehow allow you to change that?
hS
The email was sent before this post, but only noticed by me after.
I will delete any further copies of it I'm sent.
hS
Admittedly, I have been gone a long time, and have read through a lot of this as a crash course, so I am getting a rather condensed view, but I haven't seen anything but attack after attack from Bramandin against either the entire community or individuals within it. The Grand Concilliary is still open, and as was stated within it many times, it was the place to address grievances with the goal of not having threads like this one that bring up the past again and again. Bramandin posted in it several times, so they saw it. Why a new dramatic thread here a few days after that one fell off the front page?
And it is the same accusations that have been present in every single Bramandin drama thread, in which they vaguely and with very, very confusing words claim that the entire PPC is mean to them and owes them an apology. Vague accusations of bullying. Demands that everyone apologize to them. Excuses that being autistic made them do it (I, personally, find that to be a highly offensive excuse for bad behavior. Especially bad behavior that has been repeatedly and explicitly explained as bad behavior). Excuses that it was actually the other members of the community who were behaving badly. Just a lot of excuses and claims that they are the victim. Every single time. Including the last one with Iximaz just a week or two ago.
I am confused by most of the posts in this thread by Bramandin. They objectively do not make sense, so I actually have very little idea of what it is they are accusing the PPC of other than them being the victim of the PPC.
I am not putting forth a vote for anything, but also I do not understand the statements that Bramandin is behaving better when this thread looks very much like all the others.
I'm not trying to be offensive, and I apologize if anything in here is. Please point it out to me, so I can not do it in the future, but also, please someone explain this to me.
Bram is a (possibly formerly) banned user operating under a sockpuppet. hS's post has all the relevant details. This didn't come up in the Grand Conciliary because it was thought to be resolved.
The abuse that I am talking about is strictly in regards to zdimensia.
As far as I can tell, everything Bramandin except for this thread has no mistreatment, only misunderstandings. I make mistakes, no matter how hard I try. I don't get connotation or social cues.
I think that the Ix thing has been handled to people's satisfaction?
I do need to work on following concrit more,
how to accept it better,
and of being patient for betas.
Just to avoid ambiguity, everything other than this sentence is Tomash's words.
"Subject: My thoughts and proposals
From what I can tell, Bram is working on her behavior. We've forgiven a lot (or, in the recent case, handed out a formal last chance instead of striking Bram down with a banhammer) because of what appeared to be genuine attempts at improvement. Adding one count of ban evasion to the list of things we'll be willing to understandably forgive doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. So count this as (unless other people or a closer look at the archives convince me otherwise) a vote against the continuation of the permaban.
One of my secondary reasons for that vote is that this is partly analogous to Scapegrace's situation, which has also been marked by problems interacting with the community and (from what I can tell) genuine attempts at working on mental-illness-induced behavior issues.
That being said, I've read over the emails Neshomeh provided, and I see there that Bramadin admitted to lying and manipulating her way to a Permission grant. From what I can tell, the only reason that we don't have a rule about that is that we didn't expect anyone to do it (same as, for example, doxxing). For that, I propose Permission Revoked going forward, without any restrictions on re-applying by the usual process. Let me be clear, this revocation is NOT for "bad writing" and NOT for "being bad at taking concrit", since that's a precedent I'd not like to see set.
Permission being revoked means that Bram is still welcome to write PPC stuff privately (and get it beta'd), and to post things that don't require Permission (Permission requests, most RPs, and so on), but that she's not to represent any of that work as canonical/official stories set in the PPC universe.
Now, to Bramadin:
From what I can tell, you've accused the community of being abusive or bullies, and I'm not sure what it it we've done that seems abusive. Having a Permission process? Having a Permission process that is extremely confusing to you? Not understanding/listening to you? I just don't know. I would appreciate a concrete list of events (links and/or quotes would be nice, but I won't say they're required) where we were, from your perspective, abusive, preferably including what about that interaction was a bad thing.
Second, a lot of what you're saying isn't being understood. In a lot of the posts you've made here, I don't understand what message you are trying to communicate with your words. You've said that you're using a lot of "parallels" to try to communicate (if this is what I'm thinking of, my name for that sort of thing is "private metaphors"). They are, in most cases, not being understood, in the sense that they're not conveying much of a message at all. Also, in some of your posts, you're using pronouns (or pronoun-like things) in a way that makes it impossible for us to tell what you're referring to. For example, "the scowlers" in your post on racism.. I'm still not sure who you're talking about there.
Lastly, I'm going to echo various people who are saying that we don't have the resources to help you thrive here, and that it might be best for you to leave, at least temporarily.
Now, on a meta note, can I post here same as in the Concilliary, since this is the same sort of thread (namely, a discussion of bad behavior with possible votes)?
- Tomash"
Specifically, the request for a list of events which Bramandin perceives as other Boarders being abusive.
I disagree, however, with the notion that this is the same sort of thread as the Grand Concilliary. That thread was a special case, intended to resolve past conflicts including one involving Tomash. I believe that last part is the important part with respect to Tomash being allowed to post - the Grand Concilliary could not have been allowed to pass without him having the opportunity to defend himself.
This, though, does not involve him, and is not a thread that is likely to result in any grand, sweeping changes to the community. Therefore, I do not believe it appropriate to lift his ban from posting for this thread.
I accept that the things that happened were not intentional.
If Bramandin really wants Kelly and September moved to "Out of Continuity", she has to find somebody else to do it for her. For obvious reasons I can’t appear to support revoking Permission for not following the Permission Prompt Guidelines to the letter.
On a meta note, Tomash should be allowed to post here.
HG
It does not seem from the email chain that Bramandin "lied and manipulated her way to a Permission grant" (except in that she did not disclose her previous ban). She certainly lied through and manipulated the Permission process; see here for the moment I got so fed up with her 'oh my character cannot do any of the prompts' line and fed her three random prompts which could literally happen to anyone - but Permission was granted based on July's opinion of her work and behaviour. See here.
There are ways to cheat the Permission process. One would be to plagiarise something and present it as your writing sample, or get a disgruntled ex-PPCer to do so. Another would be to just... lie and say you got Permission ages back. I would also count having the person who grants you Permission act as beta/cowriter, or anything else which means their objectivity is compromised. Bramandin, so far as Neshomeh's chat logs go, didn't do any of those things.
hS
Since this came up in Nesh's transcript, and I remember it as a bugbear for zdimensia as well, I thought I'd explain why people (PGs) have seemed inconsistent about whether you can write missions before you get Permission.
The thing is, Permission is a torturous doom-laden trial a filter. It is intended to filter out writers who cannot write PPC fiction well enough that it should be included in the canon. When you show us that you can do that - when you post your prompts and get a Permission Granted - that means that we think you can do it.
But it doesn't mean that you retroactively could always write well enough. If you've already been denied Permission once, it even means that you explicitly can't write well enough, though we hope you soon will be able to.
So let's say you take your Permission Denied, and you write half a dozen missions. Along the way, you learn about your characters, about the PPC, about writing in general. You improve. And when you apply for Permission again, you get it, easily.
And then you post the first mission you wrote. The one that came right after you were denied Permission - or, heck, the one that came between your first and second denials. The mission that was written at a time when you were not ready to write for the PPC.
Does that clear up the confusion? The answers Bramandin received were answers to both halves of the question:
1) You can write whatever you want "for the drawer" (as Neshomeh said). PPC missions, heartwarming interludes, Flower-murder, hardcore smut. Whatever. It's your keyboard, your time, your computer.
2) You cannot post anything that doesn't meet the standards of the PPC. And that explicitly includes anything written before the PPC Community - through the Permission Givers it voted to put its trust and confidence in - judged you ready, able, and knowledgeable enough to write for the PPC canon.
What zdimensia seemed to want to do was 'pre-write' her missions. She never gave the impression of seeing Permission as a test of her writing ability, but just as an arbitrary hoop to jump through.
It isn't. It's there for a reason. And that reason precludes writing for publication without it.
hS
This is why the prompts were unfair. This is why asking me to use a team not of my choosing was unfair.
I pointed out that all of the prompts were out-of-character for my agents. (S&L) They were also a team that didn't really interact outside of missions. (S&L) They turned out to be ill-conceived. (S&L) I didn't find the problem until writing an interlude.
I wanted to start with Kim and Hue. They are a simple team that fits the PPC expectations pretty well. They still don't interact much outside of the missions, but I was able to find a prompt for them.
The problem with that is that the prompts were rather vague and broad. Most of them were situations where any team could be slotted in and have something happen. If an agent team isn't able to do anything with the prompts without being ooc, then there is probably something wrong with the team as PPC characters.
There was a problem with the team, and I should have been allowed to shelve them until I figured out what the problem was.
I'm not seeing vague and broad when I look at some of the prompts. I did have success with inserting the word "not" into a lot of them.
Here's a point of interest.
The Permission Prompts were introduced for two reasons:
1/ To stop people from posting unsuitable stories and being denied Permission because they couldn't read our minds.
2/ To test your creativity.
A PPC mission will throw very strange things in front of your agents, and of you, the writer. See this mission as an example. If your response to anything in the least bit unexpected coming up is to throw up your hands and say "I can't write this!", you will not be able to write PPC missions. That's just a fact.
The Permission Prompts are quirky. They're unusual. But they're in no way impossible. For sure, there are a couple which impart emotions on your characters - but that's why they come in pairs, so you can skip those ones if you really want.
Still don't believe me? I'll prove it to you. Pick any one of my PPC agents - anyone on that list with a department abbreviation or 'Retired' next to their name (the others are non-agents). Pick any TWO prompts from the list. I guarantee you that I can write a short story using both of those prompts and that agent, whatever you pick. Because that's what being creative is all about.
hS
I might be biased because I helped make them. But still!
Are you talking about the ours? It is interesting that the agents almost screw that up.
I do have one specific thing that doesn't come up all of the time, but I don't seem to have the knack for. Remember http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=301458;search_term=solo because that is one case where it is perhaps right to say "I can't."
Just this morning, I found fanfiction.net/s/6922962/1/Time-abhords-a-paradox-Well-screw-what-it-wanted NSFW MPREG SLASH
I'm not saying I shouldn't try it, but the malpropisms will trip me up.
The prompts aren't bad. Even optional, they are serving a good purpose.
As far as testing creativity... Perhaps.
I am assured that your agents are good, and should not give you enough trouble to prove a point. You can use Mattman's choices because I do like to see how others approach the prompts.
I literally have no idea what you're saying in most of this post. Were you actually responding to me there?
But if I understand your last paragraph correctly, you believe that I can make 55 agents who can handle all 72 prompts with no trouble - while you can't even come up with 2 that can deal with 1.
That... is a very worrying admission.
hS
I cannot recycle the character to fit the prompts. Just one psychotic vampire with issues. She may not belong in the PPC.
I honestly haven't tried other characters with the prompts, except for once. I'm sure that if I played with my army of characters, save for the vampire, I'd come up with some good stuff.
I am sure that most of your characters will fit most of the prompts. Even if I get lucky, you could easily tweak the character to fit and I would not notice.
I would like to see someone pull a prank on your vampire and her partner.
It had been quite some time since Selene Windflower had last needed to take a shower - it wasn't like she could sweat, after all. But the Mysterious Case of the Exploding Wraith (as Kaitlyn insisted on calling their last mission) had covered both agents in glitter, which Kaitlyn flatly refused to get all over the feeble shower in their RC. It had taken a fair amount of badgering, but eventually Selene had agreed to accompany her over to the washrooms.
Which didn't mean Kaitlyn was entirely satisfied. "You're going to shower wearing that?" she demanded as the vampire stepped out of her changing booth.
Selene looked down at her bathing suit. "What's wrong with it?"
"It's… you… compare and contrast, okay?" Kaitlyn waved a hand down her own front. "Bikini. Lots of skin. Easy to clean. Whereas you… sweet Nessa, would it kill you to show your knees?"
"It's all I've got," Selene said with a shrug, plucking at the neck-to-calf costume. "I've not really needed swimming clothes for… a long time." She reached up and brushed her fingers over the brass mechanisms on the side of her face. "I'm still not convinced this is a good idea."
"You'll be fine. C'mon." Kaitlyn grabbed her partner by the elbow and dragged her towards the glass door into the shower room. "I've checked, and they definitely don't use holy water."
"Oh, joy, something else to worry about. You do know how to make me feel bucksome." Selene pushed the door open and peered into the steam, her hand creeping up to the brass Key again. "Are you sure…?"
"Quit being such a wet blanket." Kaitlyn planted her hands on her partner's back and shoved, sending the vampire stumbling into the showers. "Pun intended."
Selene tensed as the hot water splashed over her, but when nothing seemed to happen she allowed herself to relax a little. "I suppose it isn't too bad," she allowed, stepping gingerly into the flow. "And it will be easier than rinsing my hair in the sink."
"That's the spirit." Kaitlyn gave her a thumbs up. "Maybe we'll even get to introduce you to soap."
"You are a very cheeky young whippy." Selene tipped her head back, letting the water run down her face. "Now hush and let me enjoy-"
"Seleeene." The word drifted through the steam, its origin invisible. "Seleeeeeene…"
The vampire peered into the fog at the vague figure across the room. "Yes?" she asked. "Do I know you?"
"Of cooourse you know me." The figure advanced through the swirling heat, coming into focus: tall and pale, her long dark hair covering one side of her face, a strange light in her eyes. "I'm youuu, Selene," she said, and grinned, baring a pair of sharp fangs.
Selene's hand whipped up to the Key. "No," she whispered, staring at the advancing apparition. "You can't be." Her shoulders trembled, the red glow of her eyes flaring up. "You can't be," she repeated, raising one shaking hand. A dull boom rattled the shower heads, as of distant thunder. "Go away," Selene ground out, "go away, go away-!"
"Selene!" Kaitlyn lunged across the room and grabbed her partner's outstretched arm. "Selene! Calm down! What's wrong?"
Selene stared unseeing over her shoulder. "They were gone," she mumbled, "I escaped them, but she's back, I'm back, I can't-"
Kaitlyn glanced back at the figure, which had come to a stop a few paces away. "Oh, take those things out, Hypatia," she snapped. "Can't you see you're freaking her out?"
The apparition cocked its head, then reached up and removed the set of cheap plastic fake fangs from her mouth. "Well, that's just silly," she said. "Like, a vampire scared of vampires? What's even with that?"
"That's clearly not what this is." Kaitlyn stepped in front of Selene and took hold of both her shoulders. "Hey," she said, shaking her gently, "snap out of it. It's Hypatia. You remember, the Arwen clone?"
Selene looked from Kaitlyn to Hypatia, then back again. The fire faded from her eyes. "You can see her?" she asked in a quavering voice. "She's not me?"
"Of course not." Kaitlyn patted her shoulder. "She just had silly costume teeth in, that's all." She shot a glare at the other woman. "Why she felt the need to follow us here to try and frighten you, I don't even want to guess."
"Hey, no fair!" Hypatia pouted at her. "I was here first. I just thought, when the vampire walked in, it'd be, like, funny. And I had the teeth in already, so…"
Kaitlyn blinked. "Why did you have vampire teeth in the shower? No, actually, forge-"
"There was this party," Hypatia interrupted, "out in New Cal, and I had like the best costume. Only I spilled the punchbowl when I tried to drink it, so I had to come and have a shower. That's called logic," she finished, fixing the shorter woman with a defiant look.
Kaitlyn sighed and shook her head. "It's called something," she muttered. "See, Selene? It was a joke. Just a silly joke."
The vampire finally tore her gaze away from Hypatia and met her partner's eyes. "It wasn't funny."
"Never said it was." Kaitlyn patted her shoulder vaguely and stepped back. "But can you stop looking so worried? It's making me want to hug you, and that's doing weird things to my head."
Selene managed a slight smile, and stepped back under the flow of the shower. "Okay," she whispered, pressing her hand over the gleaming clockwork Key. "Okay okay okay. I'm in control. I'm me. There is no other. Okay. Yes. Okay."
She closed her eyes, and for about twenty seconds stood absolutely still as the hot water tumbled over her shoulders. Then she nodded, looked at her partner, and smiled.
"Did you say something about soap? I think I'm ready to learn."
I thought prompts were supposed to be funny. I don't think that getting her button pushed was funny.
I can't remember what the key is for, exactly. Clockwork sanity?
Samantha isn't a hair-trigger monster either. She's under a lot of stress, and started her development with a lot of angst. I have toned her down, but she was never the type to murder people without a better reason than looking at her funny.
Mini-Balrogs remind her of a traumatizing event.
... that you understand how to write for the PPC. In this story, I showed that I could pair serious issues with humour, without dismissing the serious part, but also without letting it override the humour. Precisely how well I did that is open for interpretation, I suppose.
Given that you told Neshomeh you couldn't write your vampire chasing children "unless you like dead baby jokes" (paraphrasing), I am not inclined to believe your description here.
hS
I am wondering again if Samantha was a good choice of character, but I like her. Perhaps the bad choice is dealing with Legacy of Kain within the context of the PPC.
(There are humorus fics in the LOK universe, but most of them are good. Most of the bad LOK fanfictions are taking themselves seriously.)
Having Samantha chase children is like letting a wolf loose in a deer pen and not expecting something horrible to happen.
((I know that Wolf Park in Lafayette, IN lets the wolves loose in the bison pen. The wolves are fed and trained, and I haven't heard of any accidents where the bison were seriously hurt.))
Samantha is not like my cat, who continues to bring dead dragonflies into the house for no reason other than boredom.
...Why not just use a different character, then? I know I come up with so many different concepts so often I did like two things with my original permission pair and then never looked at them again.
(I'll probably reboot that spinoff eventually though, once I think of a story worth telling with them.)
I wanted to use my other team. I just didn't consider who my mains were, and my mains don't live in the same RC. I didn't know that I could use the team that I was going to work with first.
I ended up having to abandon the Larry and Samantha team because they just didn't work.
I tried to talk about the problem I was having.
I think that the PG thought I was only going to do two things with my permission pair and then never look at them again.
Dfyddd and Constance argue over who gets to do the Duty, and Agent!hS and Kaitlyn bargain for goods at the General Store.
Agent Huinesoron (DOGA/SIELU/DAS-DIG, depending on who's asking) strolled along the 'Green Stuff' aisle of the General Store. Every few steps, he pulled a box or bag from the shelf, and added it to his increasingly-overstuffed basket. It wasn't often, after all, that you could even find fresh vegetables in HQ, and there was an interesting salad he'd noticed on a mission in Dorthonion that he wanted to try. He'd need grapes from the vinyards of Dorwinion (into the basket they went), celery from anywhere (a bundle of Sphinxian imports followed the grapes), and of course, fried-
There was a swish from behind him, and a level voice said, "Put down the mushrooms and step away from the shelf."
Huinesoron turned slowly, and had to forcibly restrain himself from looking twice as far down as was actually required. "Agent Kaitlyn," he said, doing his best to smile. "It's been a while. Why are you pointing a stick at me?"
The not-actually-hobbit woman brandished said stick. "This is a Muggle-use wand," she said, "ten and a half inches of applewood with a unicorn hair core. It could blow your pointy ears clean off."
The elf frowned. "I thought those things didn't work in HQ. That's what you told me about mine…"
Kaitlyn rolled her eyes. "That was a clever lie." Without looking away, she flicked the wand in the general direction of the end of the aisle. "Incendio. Now hand over the-"
"Hey! Do you mind?"
Kaitlyn looked round guiltily at the couple a few steps down. A tall, dark-haired man was patting out the flames on the hem of his coat, while the woman with him tried to stifle her laughter.
"I mean, I know I'm a pyro," the man said, glancing up, "but this is ridicu… oh. Priestess Kaitlyn."
"Um." Kaitlyn flushed slightly, and did her best to hide her wand without actually moving. "Your High Priestiness. Hi."
"Just Dafydd will do." The ex-PPCer plucked at the charred edge of his coak. "Ah, well, I needed a new one anyway. But," he added with a scowl, "that doesn't mean I wanted you to set it aflame."
"That's his job," his wife said with a wink. "Hi, Kaitlyn."
"Agen- um, Constance." Kaitlyn chewed on her lip for a moment. "Sorry about the… the fire thing."
"Good." Dafydd let the blackened fabric fall from his fingers. "Why the pyrotechnics, anyway?"
"I think she was showing o- ah. That is to say." Huinesoron thought for a moment. "We were having a discussion. It got out of hand. Greetings, sir."
Dafydd seemed to register him for the first time. "Huinesoron," he said, the Quenya name flowing smoothly in his lilting accent. "Elen sila… well, no stars here, I suppose." He shook his head slightly, and then his gaze sharpened. "Actually," he said, "you're just the person to sort out a little dispute we've been having."
"Oh, you're not going to--?" Constance folded her arms across her chest. "Really, Dafydd?"
"What?" The elf spread his arms. "If you won't see reason, it's perfectly legitimate to ask a third party for advice."
Constance snorted. "A neutral third party, yes. Not another member of the Noldorin Supremacy Club."
"I wouldn't say I thought-" Huinesoron began, but Dafydd barrelled right over him.
"It's not being Noldorin that makes me superior," he said, then stuck his tongue out at his wife before turning back to Huinesoron. "Imagine, if you will, that you have been sent to hunt down a Suvian who utterly upends the entire history of our people. Do you agree that you would have a greater right to kill her than your partner," he waved one hand at Constance, "who simply objects to the way her Lust Object is treated?"
Huinesoron considered this. "It does seem rather more significant," he mused. "I think I'd certainly want to-"
"Oh, come on." Constance planted her hands on her hips and scowled. "You can't seriously value ancestry over character! I mean, would you say I had the right to the kill just because we were in one of my Dad's bo-?"
She stopped abruptly, ignoring Huinesoron's curious look, and turned to Kaitlyn. "You're with me on this, right?" she said. "I mean, if the Suvian was meddling with Luthien or whoever, you'd want to take her out, right?"
Kaitlyn held up her hands. "Hey, don't drag me into this," she said. "I'm just here for the mushrooms. Besides, I'm DCPS; I don't kill people."
Huinesoron glanced at her, his brow furrowed. "I thought you'd transferred to Floaters."
"I'm temporarily assigned to Floaters," Kaitlyn corrected with exaggerated precision. "I'm still a caseworker underneath. Just like these two," she flicked her wand at Dafydd and Constance," are still retired even if they're taking on this mission of theirs."
The couple exchanged a startled look. "We haven't got a mission," Dafydd said. "What are you talking about?"
Kaitlyn glanced from him to his wife and back. "The one you're arguing about," she said, "with the elves and the Lust Object…?"
"Oh, that's just hypothetical," Constance said with a flick of her head. "It didn't come up when we worked together, so we never really thought about it."
"Then why are you here?" Huinesoron put in. "In HQ, I mean, now that you're retired."
"Because it's next to impossible to get groceries out of season in Malij," Dafydd said. "Like tomatoes, or… mushrooms." He reached over and plucked the carton out of Huinesoron's hand, tucking it one-handed under his arm. "See you around. Connie - run."
Also, throwing another challenge into the ring:
Agent: Jared
Prompts: One agent discovers a way to travel into the PPC’s past and alter history; the other tries to convince them not to do it.
OR
One agent has to choose between their partner’s safety and successfully completing the mission/defeating an enemy (third options are allowed).
And... yikes, did you choose Jared for that specially? It's a pretty perfect fit.
hS
I probably should have phrased it as "What's DAS-DIG"? Sorry. I also suspect that was a joke that just flew entirely over my head.
I can also reroll the prompts if you like.
And like I said, Jared is perfect for that prompt, so I'm not complaining.
hS
"The ex-PPCer plucked at the charred edge of his coak"
Is that meant to be coat or cloak?
On another note, that's a hilarious little story. I was smiling pretty much all the way through it. It does help to know the characters, though--I would otherwise have been a little confused by some things like the mention of hS not looking down to Hobbit height. Then again, it's possible the bit about the mushrooms might have cleared that up... It certainly helped to know both the agents and the related canons.
The only thing I can't figure out is why Constance breaks off when talking about her father's books. Is it some really obvious thing that I've missed, or more obscure?
~Zing
~Zing
I see what you mean about the looking-down; I'm trying to come up with a way to slip it in without it looking obvious. Probably an expansion to the 'not-actually-hobbit' line in the following paragraph.
As to Constance, it was revealed here that a) her dad's an author, and b) she doesn't like to mention that fact. She's apparently loosened up a bit on it since leaving the PPC, but it's still a bit of a hangup. Precisely why she feels that way, given that he's established to have banned fanfic of his stuff, I'm not certain...
hS
That's a very fun read, that is. I'm glad I asked. I should, at some point, probably just go find and read every Dafydd-and-Constance story around, since I obviously have not read them all. That would be fun to do.
And yeah. I mean...I like the not looking down line, but if I didn't know a, that Agent hS and Kaitlyn had been on a mission together, and b, anything at all about Kaitlyn's hobbit obsession and about hobbits in general, it would've been confusing. As it was, I had to think for a moment before the disguise reference clicked.
~Zing
Ohmystars, this is the first time anyone's ever actually said they wanted this, I'm so exciteeeeeed--!
Ahem. Sorry about that. Anyway: there is a Illian-Sims family timeline on my website, listing every story with Dafydd, Constance, or their children in. It's not perfectly complete - this fic isn't in it, and the latest Hunger Games aren't, but other than that it... actually might have everything.
And it was a lot of work and I was super pleased with it but no-one's ever needed it before and squee. ^_^
I think something like 'The woman - who was not actually a hobbit, despite her tendency to come across as one - brandished said stick'. That's a bit clunky, but I'll work on it.
hS
Apparently I have actually read all of these over the last five to six years. But if I ever find the time to reread, I can now do it in chronological order. Whooo!
HG
My goodness, that's a lovely set-up. I really like how that timeline+stories looks: it's so neat, and everything's right there, and wowawesomeyesgoodhow do I mimic this on the wiki.
So yeah, I'll be going through that. I think I've previously mainly just read chunks of what's linked on the characters' wiki pages, plus a few other things, but...timeline! Fantastic! I really, really like the look of this. And, and I want to make my own. Somehow. So far, my ideas involve a Word document and comments...not as neat, but certainly functional. Probably.
...yeah, I'll keep thinking about that.
Anyway, thanks very much for the link (is this an even better link than the story link? I'd say so, since it leads to even more stories). I'll be sure to take a look through it. And may you have many more people needing it. (Also, seriously, the amount of work put into it shows. It's very nice.)
~Z
PS: Trying out a new signature. Still me, though.
This is my mostly-abandoned SorTable of my stories on the Wiki. The code can be directly ported to other pages, and you can make any columns you want sortable.
I am so pleased right now I can't even. ^_^
hS
...there's something wrong with the Fanfic Land and Fanfic World links. Specifically, of the links under "Links" on this page, only the third one works. None of the stories are accessible.
~Z
PS: The table, on the other hand, is working well and is very, very fun. It's also made me realize that half of my agent pages (or so) are several years out of date, which...I mean, I knew some of them were a little out of date, but I didn't know they were that out of date. Whoops? Anyhow, the table's been fun.
Okay, there's two problems there. One was Webs, which I've fixed. The other... is that FfW is built on Google Drive javascript and CSS files, which are no longer available.
This... may not be easy to fix.
Individual stories are still accessible; the addresses take this format:
http://fanfic_land.webs.com/FfW/Story21-1.htm
I think I may just make a link repository for both sites, and then move the next Badfic Games (that I feel up to archiving) to a third site. One that Liechtenstein can't find and sabotage.
hS
Do you hold the answers to everything right now because whaaaaat.
This is amazing. Quick, what's the fastest way to get to the moon? Why are there no three-legged animals? Why do amusing questions or lists of things come in threes? Will this even work with non-PPC related questions?
Ahem.
So, yes, that's pretty awesome and I'm going to see how I can adapt that. It looks helpful. And useful. And I can already see I'm going to have fun with it, whether or not I end up using it...though I could see it working very well for, say, the Reader's page, since there's a lot there and some of it has major spoilers for later stories despite being set earlier...yes, I think I'll give it a try. If it works, it'll go up; if not, it...well, it won't. Either way, I anticipate fun. :D
Thanks!
~Z
Wear it well and with pride and--well, carefully, since it's pretty pointy what with all the 'A's in the design...
~Z
Can someone move Kelly into the out-of-continuity for me?
I think in addition to the rule of not manipulating the process, there needs to be an addition to the FAQ. "What happens if someone has trouble with the permission process?"
I think the answer should be that the problem will be examined by the board. In a lot of cases, a little flexibility should fix the problem.
Someone else said before permission that they would drop an idea, only to write it into a story later.
I'll go back later to tweak the permission page to be presented in a less confusing manner without fundamentally changing it.
I also felt that during the permission process, some requests were added. I have an essay on my vampire's powers. Also, I got vague feedback about wanting to know more about my vampire; she wasn't the POV character and doesn't talk about herself.
I do think that having details about a character's powers is important.
Tomash should be allowed to post. She is gone voluntarily, after all.
http://technodann.github.io/PPC-board-2.0/archive/2014/07b.html#post-100166
"I couldn't find a prompt that would work with my main team,"
"I finally found something to wedge in as a random prompt"
This was after I complained that I didn't want to use Samantha and Larry and was ignored. I can't find the link right now.
That being, Permission revoked on grounds of obtaining it when not only she wasn't supposed to be asking in the first place thanks to the ban, but also lying about the characters and manipulating the process would be reasonable to me. Tomash's added caveat that zdimensia be allowed to try again in the future—after she's proven herself trustworthy enough to ask Permission—is acceptable as well.
I'd be in much more favor of just saying "No, you willfully broke your ban twice and lied and tricked your way into regaining (misplaced) trust, so you should leave." But if that were not possible, then Tomash's suggestions are fine by me.
I want to focus on writing. Trouble is that I have this backlog of old stories that need a second look before I can move forward. Can anyone help me?
The first three are all My Little Pony Despatch stories. I think that I've approached the Despatch well, sometimes speculating whether a character represents their author or not, but only saying for sure when I'm positive that they're just a character.
The first story has meth use, nudity, and references to Cupcakes. Rated T.
The second story has cussing, romance, and an obsession with Deadmau5. Rated T.
The third story is NSFW.
The second
After years of being in this community, I think what is now clear is that we are not equipped to work with you in a productive way. I'm sorry that's the case, and I wish it weren't true. But a large number of your interactions with other Boarders have been characterized by miscommunication and confusion.
Bramandin, I don't think this community is healthy for you. I don't want to see you hurting, either emotionally or physically, because of anything that happens here. Your personal safety is far more important than anything else. That is why I would like to ask you to give this community up. Forget the PPC, forget everyone here, block the Board on your system if you don't have the will power to stop coming. Live a happy and safe life with your husband, and forget us.
I want to reiterate that my intent here is not to kick you out, or turn you away from us, as any kind of punishment or attack. I also don't want this to feel like a punishment for having autism, as I know that's not something you can help, and that you've been working hard to be a part of the community in spite of it. I want this to be a decision you make, to ensure your own continued health and life, and to leave a situation that isn't making you happy, and isn't benefiting you. Please, do this to keep yourself safe.
—with respect, goodwill, and hope for a safe future,
doctorlit
I've read over everything I can get my hands on, the archives, Nesh's email conversations, even my emails with you to see if I could get anything else from them. I honestly do not believe it would a good idea for you to stay in this community Bramandin, not because you are not good for this community, but because it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that this community is not good for you. That is not an attack against either you or anyone in this community, but I think a mutual parting of ways is the best outcome for this situation.
Novastorme
I'm feeling better than I have in a long time. Even being Bramandin, before anyone else knew, I felt better to be talking to you.
I might leave once the wounds have healed.
Barring any honestly despicable behavior from me, I feel that I should be able to come and go as I please. That includes refraining from posting when I'm stressed.
Were you the one who told me "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" before blocking me out for unintentional rudeness?
Are you, or are you not, feeling suicidal at this time?
You started off this thread by telling us you were feeling suicidal, but here you say you're feeling better than you have in a long time. Which is it? Or, if you were feeling suicidal when you first posted, but your situation has changed since then, please tell us that.
~Neshomeh
I still feel like every person here would live happily ever after if I killed myself.
I'm not actively feeling suicidal at the moment.
I am prepared to go to the hospital, but I don't want to.
Is that a satisfactory answer?
Yes, that is satisfactory, and it helps.
I'll be the first to say that no one wants you to kill yourself. We would be very upset if you did that.
I'm glad you're prepared to get help if you need it.
~Neshomeh
I understand what you're asking, and why. But... this doesn't feel like the sort of question you'd ask someone you thought might actually be contemplating suicide, because of how badly someone in that state might take it.
Or something like that.
hS
Neshome didn't do wrong. I think that hospital staff will also ask it that bluntly.
She did write FicPsych. Maybe she's done a lot of research?
She also has some insight on how I don't do subtle well.
Think of Drax (red tattoos) from Guardians of the Galaxy.
I'm just saying what I feel would be best, but you're you and thus the best judge of what is ultimately the best thing for you to do. So go for it.
Nope, that's not me. I don't even know how to block people on gmail.
My time here has been a little bit rocky, but I don't think it's been irredeemably bad.
There is a nightmare PPC. The first six months of my ban were somewhat relaxing since I could work in peace on what went wrong. But then I found my answer.
I started yelling at the wall because I felt I couldn't tell you what had happened. Of course I felt un-listened to because you couldn't defend yourselves.
I need for you to say that things aren't true.
I feel that every person on the board will live happily ever after if I kill myself, or even just go back to suffering in silence. That's right, I feel like I'm not considered a person.
When I realized that I felt abused, it hurt not to say anything. You dismissed me, even saying I was delusional. People who gaslight say their victim is crazy. You took away my ability to speak.
You can email me if you'd like.
bramandintook at gmail
I'm going to try to go back to bed, though.
I think you were trying to use four random words here (to 'say something'); however, unfortunately the first word ('nitwit') ended up being an insult, which - given how pretty much anything can be used as an insult - ended up colouring the other words as well. Obviously deliberately being insulting would be an issue under the Constitution; I feel it would be appropriate for you to apologise for your choice of words giving the impression you were flaming.
hS
Albus Dumbledore gives a speech at the start of the year, and ends on the following: "It is customary for the Headmaster to say a few words. Nitwit. Oddment. Blubber. Tweak. Thank you."
That's a good reference, appropriately used.
That said, I still feel you should consider an apology for using something that could be easily misunderstood as a flame. And I would say the same to Dumbledore if he was here. :)
hS
I mean, regardless of the size of the fandom, not everyone shares the same reference pool. If that was the case and anyone took it as a personal attack, I apologise.
Oddment and blubber were the wrong way round, in the catastrophically unlikely event anyone's interested.
In any event, I'll issue an apology for pretty much anything that causes offence, but I don't think referential humour really warrants one. I mean, come on, how many Potterverse missions and agents have we had over the years? =]
I got that it was supposed to be a reference for something, but I did not recognize it. I came across this fascinating article. http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/nitwit-blubber-oddment-tweak-four-words-for-other/
You were trying to be funny. You were ultimately not that helpful.
My knee-jerk reaction was to call you a nerd. This could be seen in so many ways, but I view it as a positive word.
Even though the article says that they were insults, I viewed it as simply a quote.
I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about this.
Again, from memory, but I think it's June and July of 2014.
I was wrong to think that I had to interact on the board to get permission. It got worse as I felt more attacked and ignored. There was a joke about how someone couldn't understand that my character was a Mary-Sue for five minutes, and then a vampire for five centuries. It made me feel that I would be mocked for being weird, and increased the stress, which made it harder to communicate.
I think that there was no malice behind it, but it seems that having a problem with the permission process is a grave sin.
I began by being too open and honest about my plans. I revealed that my first team wasn't my main team, and then was asked to use my mains. It seems the only solution would have been to lie about who my main team was so that I could use my first team.
That team was a lot more complicated, and didn't fit the prompts. Bramandin had the flexibility to write whatever he wanted to know his characters. zdimensia was stuck trying to know them outside of the PPC, which wouldn't have identified the problem, or writing them out of character.
I wrote that "I don't want to use these characters" and got no response. A few weeks later, I wrote "my characters don't fit the prompts." Someone noted that I was getting frustrated, but I was too shy to respond.
When I noted that the permission process was confusing, someone asked me how, but I got no response when I explained things. The permission process page was adjusted later, after it would do me no good. I do feel that I was hazed by having to use characters that didn't quite fit the formula, but people just assumed that I was complaining because I couldn't write.
I admit that I didn't use a beta. It was part of how the permission process page is confusing. I've made an adjustment. I got convinced that I couldn't use a beta. I got a little bit of confusing feedback early on, and following it made things worse.
Neshome changed "my characters wouldn't do this" to "I don't like the prompts." It's the language from the FAQ, showing that she was going off of preconceptions rather than actually listening. I was too scared to correct her.
I'm doing this from memory, but the archives from August of 2014 should have the truth.
Oh, she volunteered to leave for a few months. Let's take a three-month ban out of the choices because it won't be punishment anyway.
It's also where people noticed that I had trouble communicating on the board. Samuri said that I was a different person in googledocs. People lamented that I hadn't been given a big sis.
Punished for what, exactly? For not being listened to? For having a disability that makes it hard to communicate? For having trouble with the permission process? For not being told clearly what you wanted me to do?
Probably getting more into July than August here. You kept telling me to get permission, I was well beyond done with explaining that I was having a problem. (If you had listened to me and talked to me, there wouldn't have been a problem.) When I did what you told me to do, I was banned.
When you said I needed permission, I did step back and work on things that were allowed. I just didn't clearly explain what I was doing.
You said to rely on the wiki that had let me down. No one explained until later that just because it's a canonical PPC story doesn't mean it fits into PPC canon. I'm still confused on how I was supposed to know that. I think that somehow I had to guess what the PG's headcanon was.
If someone had said, "The issue is the questions" it could've been solved a lot faster. I can't read your mind, and I can't interpret subtext.
I didn't know I was supposed to vote. Even so, it wasn't 70% concensus.
If I had been allowed to voluntarily leave for a few months, or even allowed to stay, you would have seen me calm down.
What I did wrong was care what you think. What I did wrong was to try to make you happy and completely missing it.
I have gone to the trouble of reconstructing the links in the post prompting zdimensia's ban discussion, which can be found on the Altchives here. The links represent my best guesses, but I'm pretty sure of most of them.
zdimensia was banned. She broke the ban and, thus, should be permabanned (I understand now that we should have been explicit on that point when the IP ban was put in place). Bramandin is zdimensia (who came back under false pretenses to avoid being banned) and, thus, should be permabanned.
Also, I see a lot of people saying "but Bramandin is trying". I do not see anything of the sort. I see the same behavior that we have always seen. The "trying" was a facade that fell away when they posted this thread. This is how she really feels. She was upset because, in her mind, we were silencing her from saying how terrible we all are so we could repent. She still takes no responsibility for their bad behavior, and instead are waiting for the PPC community to apologize for intentionally inciting her to behave poorly.
But the community did not force zdimensia to break her ban. We didn't force her to create a sock puppet to get around the ban. We didn't force her to, by her own account, attempt to manipulate the permission process. We did not force her to lie repeatedly to the community. She chose to do all of that.
I'm personally done with this, and vote for an explicit permanent ban.
-Phobos
I don't think the permaban angle was made explicit either when zdimensia was banned nor when she reappeared. I don't like the way she came back, but I also don't feel that retroactively imposing a permaban that wasn't clear at the time is... fair.
I also think - know - that zdimensia wasn't banned for being unable to listen; she was banned for racism and pro-Nazi statements. Neither of those have shown up anywhere near Bramandin, so I don't feel good about the idea of saying she's 'done it again', when she hasn't. (I know you haven't said that; I'm just explaining my thought process.)
That said... I don't like Bramandin's behaviour in this thread. I don't like her behaviour in the Iximaz thread. I don't like her behaviour in the chat logs with Neshomeh, and I don't like her behaviour in her two failed Permission threads.
She makes all the right noises for someone who is trying desperately to understand why people are mad at them, but when people sit down yet again and explain it... she keeps making those same noises.
I don't know. It just feels like some of the ban suggestions across the thread are less 'ban her for doing bad stuff', and more 'ban her for not taking it back very well'.
Let me be clear: I don't think Bramandin fits into this community at all. I think she should take the advice she was offered right from the start of this thread, accept that she's just not meshing with the PPC, and leave. But I don't know that I'm able to vote for us forcing her to do so.
hS
...I can make a case for zdimensia/Bramandin being in repeated violation of at least 5 articles of the Constitution. Most of which have nothing to do with their dodging of the ambiguous permaban.
Article 2) Do Not Flame. You are allowed to disagree with people, but Do Not Flame. There is a distinct difference between 'I don't agree with your opinion and I think that your theory is factually wrong' and 'You're an idiot and your opinion is built on lies and stupidity'. If you find that you're hurling insults around, just stop. This even (or perhaps especially) applies if you consider yourself to have been wronged by another community member. If it’s a misunderstanding, a flame is an unwarranted attack. And if they’re deliberately trying to provoke you, attacking them is exactly what they want - and damages the community as a whole.
Repeated accusations of intentional wrongdoing about various members of the community constitute Flames, in my estimation. Especially after it has been explained, several times, that those accused did nothing wrong.
Article 5) If someone says something that seems offensive, but you’re not sure exactly what they meant, ASK them first, before jumping down their throats. Astonishingly enough, most people aren’t out to offend anyone. (If they are being deliberately insulting, believe me, you’ll have a lot of backup.) Don't be afraid to ask what someone meant - it isn't silly to want the full facts. Equally, if there has been an honest misunderstanding, accept the mistake and move on. Apologies for making a mistake, and for being unclear, are recommended, but should not be demanded.
zdimensia/Bramandin repeatedly admits to assuming Bad Faith on the part of various members of the community, even when those members have explained their meaning.
Article 8) Wilful ignorance is not an excuse. If someone is ignoring the Constitution and claiming that they’re not really doing anything wrong - despite explanations to the contrary - that may constitute using up their chance. However, wilful ignorance on the part of the accuser is also not an excuse. If someone clarifies a genuine misunderstanding, continuing to push for an apology may count as persecution on your part.
Just...all of this.
Article 11) Thou shalt make thyself legible. Spell correctly and use good grammar to the best of your ability — remember, the PPC is a force for good writing, and that includes SPaG. Wherever you are in the PPC community, spell, punctuate and grammatise to the very highest standard. Occasional honest mistakes will be forgiven, of course — but everything else aside, it’ll be hard for everyone to understand you and respond to you if you go, "OMG! I cant belive taht newst movie is out! Its so gr8!"
I can read the words, but the sentences and paragraphs make no sense. There are non-sequitors galore, accusations lacking context, answering questions that were never asked, and any number of other problems. I can maybe understand that while a person is in the heat of the moment, but it's been days now, and it happens every time this type of discussion comes up.
Article 14) Stick to one penname across the PPC as far as possible — or at least make it clear that the different names are still you. For instance, your Wiki user page should mention your Boarder name. Please don’t deliberately use multiple names — it’s confuzzling and pointlessly annoying to start an argument with yourself, and we can usually spot it. (Of course, if you’re role-playing, that’s a different matter entirely — see Articles 16, 19, and especially 29!)
Creating a new name with a new intro post to pretend to be someone else so you don't get banned.
This is the sort of thing I am having a problem with, but it has taken me this long to voice it because I had to research it.
-Phobos, resting his case.
I'm not trying to flame. I just lack the language to state my interpretation; I lack the language to make it easy for the other person to correct it.
The response I wanted was, "This is why this isn't true."
I think I'm getting hung up on the difference between "didn't do anything wrong." "There wasn't a mistake." Or "This didn't affect the receiving party."
I am embracing that there was an accident. I am embracing that my misunderstandings turned a small problem into a big one.
Once other people acknowledged that they made a mistake... I might have been slow to accept it.
I admit that I was mirroring the community's attitude when I rejected Neshome's apology. She didn't deserve that, and I am sorry.
I was under stress for days. Non-sequiturs do not feel disconnected to me.
I felt that the myth you built up wasn't giving me a fair shot. I felt that the preconception that I was a troll prevented you from trying to hear what I was trying to say. I thought that Bramandin was doing somewhat well.
About the inability to be clear, I am working on it. I had this conversation with a stranger. https://docs.google.com/document/d/10EPxperH4W5zyuQSJb2eoE1-ZowUa8dFiQZ5DdrmYfE/edit?usp=sharing It was rather spooky.
I mean, first off: I'm not going to vote against a ban. I just don't think I could vote for it.
I think the problem I have with your post is that you're stretching the definitions of all the Articles you point at. I flat-out disagree with characterising accusing people of mistreating you as flaming; the others (apart from Article 8, which I will readily allow) really do feel like you're stretching for a reason to ban somebody you want gone. It doesn't feel like "wow, that's a constitutional violation, we need to get this person out because they're messing up the community"; it feels like "wow, this person's irritating, let's boot them".
I'm not saying that's what you're thinking. And like I said, I think it would be best all round if she just left. But that's how it feels.
Remember that, as zdimensia, she was far more aggressive in her accusations, much less coherent, and far less willing to even attempt apologies. But she was banned for racism.
hS
I agree that I am stretching on article 2. There wasn't textbook definition flaming. However, we didn't figure that anyone would level repeated false accusations of harassment at the community. It didn't need to be said because it was understood to be bad. If we had said it, it most definitely fits under the spirit of article 2.
Delta Juliet disagrees with me on article 14 because it was made for situations where someone is sock puppeting. The letter of the law is to prevent things like anonymously trolling the Board to make yourself look the victim. It doesn't cover someone using a new persona to, by their own admission, avoid punishment that they think is coming. We never thought it would come up. It was known to be bad. But that situation does fit under the spirit of article 14.
The point I am trying to make is that zdimensia/Bramandin does a lot of things that are known to be bad behavior but aren't explicitly mentioned in the constitution because we didn't think it needed to be said.
-Phobos
I'll even agree with it.
My point, in turn, is that I feel banning is supposed to be used on people who are actively malevolent - who are deliberately trying to cause trouble. I don't know that I feel zdimensia/Bramandin has ever come across that way.
But I also think she should leave. I guess I want it both ways - I want the PPC community to have a set of shared values, but I don't like the idea of kicking out people who don't share them. ("Recognising when you're in the wrong," in this case.)
I don't know.
hS
Between my earlier observation that Bramandin and our community can't communicate effectively, and the points Phobos and Miah have made about Bram's lack of progress, I also support a permanent ban. It is, unfortunately, the best thing for everyone involved.
—doctorlit
It may be considered helpful to have the links to Bramandin's Permission requests, since she specifically discusses them in Neshomeh's email chain as an example of how 'Bramandin' was treated differently to 'zdimensia'.
Request 1 (Feb '16, denied by JulyFlame)
Request 2 (April '16, denied by Neshomeh)
Request 3 (May '16, denied by Desdendelle)
Request 4 (June '16, granted by JulyFlame)
And, for comparison's sake, zdimensia's Permission Requests:
Request 1 (June '14, denied by Neshomeh)
Request 2 (July '14, denied by Delta Juliette-by-any-other-name)
Request 3 (August '14, denied by... banning, basically)
hS
The last of the requests listed was also denied by JulyFlame, not just by the ban.
I'm getting a lot of it is your fault that you are angry at us, and it's your fault that we are angry at you.
Bramandin from the last year wasn't a facade. That's me when I'm somewhat calm.
zdimensia is partly myth because you wouldn't understand her motivations, which were never malicious.
Wait until the dust settles and see how the future goes.
It's been said that I forced you to ban me. Perhaps it is my fault for not seeing other recourses.
Right. Huinesoron's proposal included a clause that violation of the 12-month ban would lead to a permanent ban. No objection was raised by respondents to that post.
On the other hand, Phobos's survey, which was the method used to vote on the ban, contains no such clarifying clause. Since Phobos wasn't one of the people who replied to hS... I don't know.
My inclination, given Bramandin's poor reception to constructive criticism on her missions and her recent harassment of Iximaz, is to declare the ban permanent due to the violation, particularly after reading over Neshomeh's correspondence with her. However, I'm torn. Bramandin has been making an effort to improve, it seems, and she's certainly not as bad as she was when posting as zdimensia. As such, my mind could be changed.
As a final note, directly to Bramandin: I'm autistic, too. It's not an excuse. You can learn to be better, but here is not the place to teach you the skills you need. If you are to remain, you need to speak less and listen more, and continue to make a concerted effort to be better every day.
I actually do want to speak less.
There is a lot of anger right now. Wait for the dust to settle.
People are angry. Do you understand why? If you can't demonstrate that you do and take the appropriate steps to reconcile with those who are angry, the dust won't settle until the banhammer has swung.
I believe that anyone can change. I think that you need to learn to recognise when you are in the wrong, and change yourself instead of demanding everyone else change for you. Until you are capable of this (and I know you can be), I'm sorry, but you have no place here.
I am angry. People don't seem to understand why.
People are angry at me because:
I won't stay silent about them wronging me, and it makes them feel bad.
I have tonal problems, and am perceived as negative when I mean good.
I miss subtle clues.
I agree with my concritters, which makes me argumentative.
I cannot speak for anyone else; however, I am not angry for any of the reasons you state.
I am angry because you show no respect for the opinions of others. Nobody has wronged you, and you have wronged others; people have told you so, but you can see no further than your own grudge.
I am angry because you have now twice broken your ban - especially so this second time, because you have lied to the community since your return.
I am angry because of how you treated Neshomeh when she tried to help you, even keeping secret your ban violation for you.
I am angry because of how you use your autism as a shield to deflect valid criticism of your actions. Again, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I don't believe there has been a thread debating whether to ban me (if there was, someone please link it, because that'd be a hell of a thing to miss), so people are clearly tolerating me despite my own issues.
I am angry because you still aren't listening when people point out your troublesome behaviour. You don't consider what they say; instead, you deflect.
I am angry because you appear to be making no effort to improve yourself. You are blinded by what you view as an injustice against you, and you refuse to grow past it.
I am sorry that we cannot help you. I am sorry that the community failed you when you first arrived. I am sorry that the only thing that can keep you from harming the community further is the banhammer. But that is how it is. This isn't how it had to be, but it is how it has to be now.
I am sorry that there is a disconnect between my taking-in of the opinions of others, and showing the respect. I do care, for what it's worth. That's probably why I'm so bothered by this.
I am confused at how I wasn't wronged and I wronged others. Is it intention, because I hadn't meant harm.
I am sorry for lying. I am sorry for breaking an unjust sentence.
I have apologized before for being brusque with Neshome.
I apologize for how it seems I'm using autism as a shield. I take criticism and do my best to follow it even when I make new mistakes.
I am listening. I am sorry that it doesn't come through.
I am making an effort to improve myself. I am growing past the injustice even as we speak. I apologize for how it appears.
I disagree that the community would be harmed by letting me stay. I am forgiving everyone. It would be worse to discard a person because of mistakes.
Why do you call your ban from when you were posting as zdimensia unjust?
I just want to hear exactly why it was unjust from your point of view. I don't want to hear "zdimensia is this, but Bramandin is that". I just want to hear a truthful answer to my question. If you don't feel comfortable answering this on the board then you can email it to me, my email is clickable.
Novastorme
The first half of this message... http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=308647;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
There was a lot of assuming that things were in bad faith, and not enough asking me what I meant.
IIRC, I was hesitant to apologize at that point because I was doing it wrong, and it appeared to me that every time, people were using the apology as an excuse to attack me.
The direct request I ignored, as I explained earlier, I perceived as flame-bait, and my response would not have been kind.
If anyone had really asked me and then paid attention, they would have seen that my "racism" was a reaction to getting scowled at on the street. Feeling guilty about it doesn't seem like the type of racism you need to protect yourselves from.
I didn't even know that's why I was banned. I thought I was banned for doing what people told me to do.
She told me in person on the day I told her who I was. Before that, I was thinking that I had gotten banned because of my autism, which I hadn't known about until well after June 2015.
I feel that "breaking the constitution" was just an excuse to get rid of me, and that I wasn't truly banned for racism.
I feel that I was banned because you believed that I was a troll, despite me directly saying that I wasn't.
What is the truth of this?
I don't appreciate that in the slightest. Take it back.
hS
It was you plural, as in the board at the time. I have always believed that Huinesoron as an individual thought it was for racism, though I wasn't clear on what everyone else thought.
This is the post where I called for discussion on your banning. I was very clear why I was doing so.
You may read in the first link in that post - this link precisely what everyone else thought, too. Follow the chain of answers down.
We were not lying. What you saw on the Board, and can still see on the Altchives, is exactly what people meant.
hS
I retract the implication that you were deliberately lying.
Still, "this link" does have confusing hints that it was only part of the problem, and not taken in isolation.
I did not mean to be so indiscreet about my doubts. I should not have had those doubts to begin with. I did not mean to imply that you were telling deliberate falsehoods.
I will work on trusting you at your word. But I will still ask when I misunderstand, and work on more delicate language.
All I wanted was assurances that my fears were not true, and you have generously given that.
Did I do that right, or is there something missing?
The point I wished to express was this:
I would say that there is a strong argument to be made that zdimensia/Bramandin is in violation of her ban. Like hS said, she was banned indefinitely after breaking the terms of her initial ban. That's what happens. That's what's supposed to happen. If you agree to T&Cs and don't abide by them, you have to accept the consequences.
I also agree with doctorlit; the PPC can help as a support network, but it can't be a therapist. This person needs help, quite seriously, and we're not equipped to give it in a fit and proper manner. It's simply not fair on us to have to act as translators for people's mental issues, and I say that as someone who (as I believe I've told you before) suffers from a litany of them myself. I find them extremely difficult to deal with: my depression is like being chained to a flat, grey rock, slowly turning through the depths of space; my anger is like a red-hot cannonball sitting in the pit of my stomach, boiling the blood around it; the two combine in exciting and sometimes explosive ways.
I'm getting better.
You can, and you should, and you should because you can.
Where in the TOS does it say that I have to put up with being treated unfairly and keeping quiet about it?
"Anger cries Under American Skies." Another Tom Paxton one. Very NSFW.
I don't think that I'm asking you to bend over backwards, more like reasonable accommodation.
The constitution already says that if you don't know what someone means, or think it's an insult, you should ask them.
Dealing with me, just be aware that I'm autistic and be plain about what you expect from me.
When we are plain about what we expect from you, particularly with regard to your conduct, we get called every name under the sun and accused of being bullies.
Yeah, sorry, I remain utterly unconvinced of your victimhood.
I do have tone problems, but I'm unaware about any name calling. And I have never done anything with malice.
I might have quoted someone else saying bullies, or talked about my high school bullies, but when did I call you bullies? Was it outside of this thread?
I admit to telling you that I felt harrassed. Other than that, I have never reacted in anger.
If you point it out to me, I'll try to correct it.
Are you referring to the past year,
or years ago and this thread?
Are you referring to zdimensia, or Bramandin?
Keep in mind that zdimensia the malicious troll is a myth. Your interpretation of what I was thinking does not do me justice. Instead, you had a confused retard that was feeling attacked at every turn, and either hesitating or not understanding what to do.
Where you pointed out a direct request, I thought that Neshemeh was flame-baiting me. I would have responded somewhere along the lines of "I have said two times already what I was planning to do. That you're asking proves that you are incapable of listening."
The spirit of the ban may have been self-reflection, but that isn't quite the attitude I've seen. Sure, there's been plenty of reviewing of your action, and the actions of others, but as you've shown in this thread, you haven't learned from what happened. The fact that the temporary ban had to be changed to a permanent one, which you still did everything in your power to get around, proves that things have not changed.
The fact that every other post in this thread from you contains accusations at other members of the board is not reassuring in the slightest.
Maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe others have a different view of it than I do, but from what I've seen, I don't think anything has really changed.
I was witness to what happened during Bram's first attempt at Permission, while it was happening in real-time and certainly not after the fact. Granted, I did mess up big-time by yelling at her, but looking back at the thread I can say that she wasn't a victim necessarily. I appreciate that her mental health concerns are being discussed in a civil, tactful fashion, but constantly arguing back when faced with concrit, or ignoring it as has been done with the missions they've published, is still not a good thing to do.
I've had PM correspondence with this person before, and the response I got to my apology for lashing out at them was that she tried to shift the blame to the rest of the community. She hasn't once apologized to me for the things she's done wrong, and has instead tried to justify herself for their actions, which is something that my work supervisors have advised against doing because it makes me look like I can't take criticism. I don't speak with her often through PM, and I can't remember the last time I've done so, but I just don't want to have to willingly put myself in a situation where I may end up snapping and causing another ruckus, because Arceus knows I've been through enough of those. :/
As it stands, I wish to vouch for a final chance to give the olive branch to Bram, a last call for her to either make an honest effort to better herself as a person or, as has been stated multiple times in this thread, part ways with us without another ugly incident, which is more likely given the state of things. I know I called for her to be temporarily banned straight away that time, but if that were the case then I'd have just as easily been given the boot as well for my own offense back then, and in light of this recent info I don't know if another temporary ban would be successful. Whatever the case, I hope she gets the help she needs with her mental issues, because that'd likely be more productive than arguing on the Internet with the odds so badly stacked against her...
I'm completely unaware of what I did that needs apologies for. Perhaps it is a case of someone saying "they did nothing wrong" and I believed them?
I don't remember having a conversation with you over PM.
Perhaps the "arguing back" you're seeing is me looking for more information, or making sure I understood? Someone said "go back to these and acknowledge the concrit" and it looks to me like I did. Maybe I didn't say enough?
Despite me yelling "I said I'll try harder next time" I recognize that they were trying to help.
I think that lately, I have improved.
Perhaps Skarmory could email me some really hard advice. IIRC, you have a diagnoses.
Skarmory, I can't quite remember exactly what went on between you and Bram. Other than going off on me for being self-diagnosed, and I should re-read what you actually said and what I actually said.
I invite you to talk to me and be vulgar. We may fight and hurt each other's feelings, but I won't take it personally if you won't.
What I'm seeing is that I should bow down to those who would oppress me. That I should not hold a grudge for you grinding me down needlessly.
I was reading a bit about "submissive space" in BDSM. I don't get it, except that I should find peace and power in being controlled and beaten?
Look up Tom Paxton, We Didn't Know. It is NSFW, especially if you find that one video. The pictures of people playing guitar are slightly safer, but bad language.
I still don't feel how much self-reflection makes your mistakes my fault.
Maybe I shouldn't have lashed out, but know that I had little recourse, I felt.
But if you are viewing, and to bring up two of your main points, the banning and the Permission process as oppressive, then there is still an issue.
Events reached a point where a ban was needed. When the vast majority of people participating in a discussion have a serious enough problem with the discussion that they're asking someone to leave, that's not oppression. That is a sign that a large portion of the community has an issue with what you are saying or doing, and would like you to stop because the area is for them to enjoy as much as it is yours. To put it bluntly, while you enjoying the community is important, so is everyone else enjoying it, and if one person is making it difficult for a larger group of others, then that one has the problem, not the group at large.
As for permission, you mentioned that you had issues with the permission prompts and your characters, but didn't comment for help. When people pointed out difficulties, you said it would have been better to have lied about what characters you were going to use, as long as you could use the ones you wanted. This is not the fault of the community.
That in all of these cases, you rest the blame either on others or on the community as a whole is why I don't think you've really learned. I understand that there are issues you have to overcome, bus as Scape said in the previous discussion, you can't use your own condition as a crutch.
I'm sorry if this feels like an attack, but this is truly how the situation is coming across to me. The reference to BDSM was entirely unneeded and insulting, depending on where you fall on the subject.
I did comment for help. I'm just pointing out the two times out of three that I could have done something more. I said more later, mostly when explaining why I was writing without permission.
That's mostly the myth of zdimensia. Something was said to her, she responded, if there was any reply at all it was TLDR she must be trolling.
There was one more thing that never occurred to me, other than lying. I could have gone "Screw what little feedback I got from the PG, I'm going to ignore it and do what I want."
I'm not arguing that I needed to step back. I'm arguing that I volunteered to step back and they felt I needed to be punished for that.
Sorry for mentioning BSDM. I draw parallels to try and understand the world. Are the song references bad, as well?
I still don't understand how I am to blame for the actions of other people. While there were things that I could do, they could have done more.
I'm rising to my condition, which unfortunately means that I must go against what I think is proper and just be direct, even if that isn't proper either.
I was told very firmly not to talk about it from a moment on, so I wasn't even allowed to apologize or explain myself.
I'm not a racist. Well, there is unintentional othering, but no moral judgments about who is better or that one group should be held to different standards.
I had some confirmation bias about those who scowled. It's since been broken. I haven't had the courage to ask a scowler why they're doing it, and have stopped looking at people. If I wasn't all but forced to live here, I wouldn't.
I did once explain that I thought I had a red R floating over my head. The actions of others don't make me anything.
I'm sorry for connecting the feelings of shame that I wasn't being listened to here for the feelings of shame that I was being scowled at.
I have a feeling the Nazi thing is a misinterpretation of an incomplete thought. I think that so much is focused on Nazis automatically being evil that we don't focus on what's under the surface.
I do admit that I don't have as great of an understanding of racism as I should after all this time. I did reflect on it, and I'm not done.
First, my confession: I have known that Bramandin is zdimensia since approximately September of last year. I'm sorry if anyone feels that this was a betrayal of trust, or if my silence otherwise caused anyone any harm. I didn't say anything about it because I was told in confidence, and because Bramandin had already been around for about half a year at that point; since she'd been doing fairly well, I didn't believe that spilling the beans so long after the fact would be worth all the drama it would entail. Since the secret is out, I am no longer bound by those concerns, so I will share what I know. I have told Bramandin/zdimensia I would do this; it should come as no surprise to her.
I have a record of the e-mail correspondence I've had with her. It's in a Gdoc. I've done my best to preserve the original formatting, and I have deliberately changed only a) places where I accidentally switched from my "Internet" e-mail address to my "real life" e-mail address, and b) places where Bramandin reveals private, personal information that she has not yet mentioned on the Board. Since she has now shared her diagnosis and the fact that she went to the hospital around the time of her ban, that information does appear. The bits I've removed are clearly marked as redacted.
Here is the document.
I leave it to the PPC community to evaluate what they find there for themselves.
Due to my involvement, I will not participate in any formal vote on what is to be done now. However, I will say that at this point in time, I agree completely with doctorlit: I do not think we have the resources to give Bramandin the kind of assistance she needs to participate fully, happily, and safely in this community. I cannot myself be a full-time mediator and translator for her, and I don't know anyone else who can, either. I believe it would be best for her if she gave us up and found another way to express herself through writing.
~Neshomeh
Neshome cannot be my mediator. I blamed her carelessness for my downfall. I forgive you.
For what it's worth, I apologize again for being so forceful in email. Someone else should have been brought in on the secret.
I would like to bury the hatchet. After all, we have fandoms in common.
I accept your apology for being forceful in your latest e-mails.
However, I can't bury the hatchet while you continue to insist that my treatment of you in 2014 was abuse. I understand that you didn't like it, and that it upset you very much, but that does not ipso facto mean that my behavior was unjustified or inappropriate to the situation. A parent insisting that their teenager do their homework completely and correctly before going out to party is not abusive, even if the kid yells and screams about it until their face turns blue. In the same way, me (and everyone else) insisting that you follow the Permission process completely and correctly before doing whatever you want with our universe was not abuse, no matter how upset you got over it.
Maybe I could have expressed my objections to your requests better. All right. I apologize for my ignorance, and I am sorry for your distress. It was never my intent to give you pain. However, saying that I abused you is insulting, offensive, hurtful, and false. If you want me to bury the hatchet, you're going to have to change your mind about that and take it back. You've said you want to be friends, but a few shared fandoms alone isn't enough of a foundation for friendship. Trust and respect have to exist on both sides, and right now, that is not possible.
One more thing. I want to talk about the word "like," since that seems to have been a serious bone of contention for you. "Like" is a real workhorse of a word. It does a lot of different jobs in this language. It's a preposition, an adjective, a noun, a verb, and an interjection. It's got at least 40 definitions, according to Dictionary.com.
I was using it in the second form, third definition, "to prefer." You did not prefer any of the prompts. You did not find any of them suitable for your purposes. You did not wish to use any of them. Right? Therefore, you did not like them. It is a completely normal and expected use of the word to which no reasonable person should have any objection. It's you who keeps insisting it carries emotional weight. Sure, it can, but it doesn't have to.
I used a simple, common word in a way that most people understand perfectly well. The fact that you have a problem with it reflects on you, not on me. Please adjust your perspective accordingly.
~Neshomeh
However, I can't bury the hatchet while you continue to insist that my treatment of you in 2014 was abuse. I understand that you didn't like it, and that it upset you very much, but that does not ipso facto mean that my behavior was unjustified or inappropriate to the situation. A parent insisting that their teenager do their homework completely and correctly before going out to party is not abusive, even if the kid yells and screams about it until their face turns blue. In the same way, me (and everyone else) insisting that you follow the Permission process completely and correctly before doing whatever you want with our universe was not abuse, no matter how upset you got over it.
It's not a secret anymore. You can talk about it.
http://technodann.github.io/PPC-board-2.0/archive/
Keep in mind that I'm autistic and can't do tone. Pay attention to what I am trying to say, not how I am saying it.
http://technodann.github.io/PPC-board-2.0/archive/2015/06b.html#post-122507
I have always felt like I wasn't listened to. There is so much to go through that it will take time. I can't do this quickly.
I feel like no amount of self-reflection will make your mistakes my fault. I feel like I can't even imply that boarders make mistakes without being attacked.
I have so much more to say.
I that post from June 2015, I can't focus to read it right now,
but I remember being called delusional, troll, unhealthy, arrogant,
Someone questioned whether I had a point, if people were villainising me. It didn't matter because the problem was gone and every person involved was happy about it.
I wasn't even aware then that I was autistic. I thought my weirdness was nurture,
but you ascribed malice where there was none. ALL THE TIME.
I think perhaps that I need a mediator and translator. It's been noticed that I communicate better off of the board.
I went to the hospital that day. I scared my husband and he was released from work to come get me. I was talking about taking his gun and shooting myself.
For years, I've been shouting at the walls, "Why won't you say that you're not proud of that?"
