Subject: Those are good counterpoints (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2018-03-25 20:59:00 UTC
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Hello. by
on 2018-03-23 10:36:00 UTC
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Hello.
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In retrospect, Mythcreant seems to be a zdimensia alt by
on 2018-03-25 00:47:00 UTC
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This is, unfortunately, not a great time for this to come up (seeing as we're having a state of the Discord thread above), but it needs posting anyway.
When Mythcreant came to the chat to complain that they couldn't post on the Board, I figured out that their IP matched the one that Makarra (zdimensia's most recent account) had posted from. I sent them to talk to the Nameless Admin about getting it fixed, since there wasn't any immediate indication this wasn't a case of a blocked IP address being reassigned to someone who wasn't banned.
However, over the few days since then, evidence that Mythcreant is another account created by zdimensia/Bramadin/... has accumulated. A lot of it can be found in the following chat logs, which contain just about any conversation Mythcreant was in. I've had several people point out zdimensia-like behavior (such as going "they said they're autistic" and "they did apologize" when looking over all the previous drama, showing up with agents almost immediately, knowing a whole lot of oddly-specific PPC trivia, sharing zdimensia's views on Breath of the Wild, and a certain "treated unfairly to the point it might be abuse" line that sounds like their thing.) in those messages.
Therefore, I've come to the conclusion that, based on their behavior (and the IP address match, especially since ISPs reassign IP addresses a lot slower than I thought they did), Mythcreant is very likely another one of zdimensia's occounts, and I propose kicks, blocks, and other such technical measures (unless Mythcreant has some very good explanations).
In other words, it looks like I was wrong about Mythcreant initially, paging the Nameless Admin.
- Tomash -
Here is the email I received: by
on 2018-03-25 22:23:00 UTC
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This was received at 3am on March 25th, which I believe corresponds to 10pm on the 24th Board time, or approximately half an hour after Delta Juliette reinstituted the IP block:
Bram was right... you are a bunch of close-minded narcissists that can't listen to reason when you're wrong and you punish truth.
She's already published some PPC stories. When she gets out of the facility I'm going to help her get the rest up.
I have taken precisely two actions (prior to this post) in relation to this incident:
1/ Unblocking the IP address on emailed request from 'Mythcreant'.
2/ Posting under the Nameless Admin moniker to clarify why the block was lifted, and why I believe Delta reimplemented it.
I do not know why this email was directed to me in particular.
I have been told multiple accounts of 'Mythcreant''s claims with regards to her link to Zdimensia; as these do not appear to come from the Discord public chats, I will not repeat them here, but the people who have them may wish to provide them.
-- in fact, a small amount of Googling has turned up the fact that three days ago, Zdimensia was living in an apartment, and not, in fact, in a facility. I do not wish to share the details here, to protect her privacy, but if someone (Novastorme?) wishes for proof that the emailled story is untrue, let me know and I will detail by email how I found it.
hS -
So, Mythcreant contacted me... by
on 2018-03-26 11:26:00 UTC
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... and apparently wants to also know more details on how you found that. Their email is passingtheriver AT gmail DOT com, but I'm assuming you already have it.
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I don't particularly want to email them. by
on 2018-03-26 12:44:00 UTC
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But fine. Will do.
hS -
I *would* like to see the details... by
on 2018-03-26 00:28:00 UTC
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...with regards to Zdimensia's current housing, not because I'm saying your wrong but because I would like to see how you got there and confirm it myself, given the position I've taken in this matter. My email should be clickable.
Also I suspect the reason why you were the target of the email is that, as fair as I'm aware anyway, to most people you are the face of the Nameless Admin, and so, especially to people who cannot quite grasp our leadership structure (and a potentially a few who do) you are the closest thing we have to a leader. So the email was sent to you, because then you'd post it and everyone would know. That's my guess anyway.
Now that's out of the way, I want to get to the meat on the matter. I'm going to warn you here, it's going to read a bit like a chew out, and it's going to be negative about parts of the PPC and one Boarder in particular, but I can't make my point without it being that way and it's a point that needs to be made.
Part of me can see where they are coming from with their email, or at least the first line of it. The overwhelming negativity in this matter, so many people willing to jump on the bandwagon with what was (and maybe is) circumstantial evidence that Mythcreant is Zdimensia. Only one person willingly to step back and look at it and go "You know what, what if they are telling the truth?" Not to big myself up, but to point out how that would look to an outsider. To an outsider, I can see how it could look like the PPC is a "bunch of close-minded narcissists that can't listen to reason when you're wrong and you punish truth." Nobody cared about the person they were dogpiling on, no one cared that, in all the countries we come from, whenever anyone is accused of anything that could be construed as going against the rules of that society they are always judged as being innocent until proven guilty, whereas here I was having to prove how they cold be innocent. Nobody seemed to care about the Constitution that they were trying to hold aloft as they dogpiled onto Mythcreant, I mean in their eyes after all it was *only* a user who'd been banned before, they're not equal to a person when it comes to respecting them in the eyes of the Constitution, right? Right?
And yet, when you are in the community you can do so many things, get so many warnings and always be let off. I can think of Boarders who have hurt or harassed or upset others a multitude of times, and yet they never get more than a warning, never get told to leave the PPC for a time to cool off, or get kicked from the Discord for inappropriate comments. Yet newbies (and I'm not just talking about Mythcreant here) would get permabanned for even half of it.
You want my opinion? It's not just Discord that needs to be reviewed, but whether some Boarders need to take (in)voluntary time outs as well.
Novastorme
Who is well aware that he may have to take some time away from the PPC once this is all said and done. -
I object to your 'nobody' and 'only one person'. by
on 2018-03-26 07:03:00 UTC
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Again: my only actions in this incident habe been to unblock the IP - expressly extending that benefit of the doubt - a comment clarifying how this was done, and now posting their own email to me and offering you more information to make your own judgment on. I have not done any of the things you claim, and the fact that you used global language in a post replying to me strongly suggests you feel I have.
I was prepared to believe Mythcreant was a separate person. I did not speak up on this thread for two reasons: first, that I did not want to be attacked for doing so, and second, because Mythcreant's words amd actions were setting off all the Zdimensoa flags before anyone said anything.
It is worth remembering that several of the people you are concerned about were aware of the possibility before Tomash posted. In the interests of transparency: 'Mythcreant' mentioned Tomash in her email, so I emailled Tomash to check if he was aware of the possibility of her being Zdimensia, and whether he had reason to think she wasn't. I received an unsolicited email from Delta Juliette after Mythcreant posted to the Board, expressing the same concern; since that email contained information about events on the Discord, I quoted it (with permission) to Neshomeh, who had previously identified Zdimensia as Makkara.
I do not know who else had already gone through the process of giving her the benefit of the doubt, but being convinced by the weight of evidemce that she was Zdimensia (or acting as what Wikipedia terms a 'meat-puppet' for her, which amounts to the same thing). But you need to be aware that people have indeed done so.
hS -
Clarifications and Apologies. by
on 2018-03-26 08:27:00 UTC
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I'm sorry, I shouldn't of tarred everyone with the same brush. When I said 'nobody' and 'only one person' I should have clarified it more, but in the heat of the moment I never realised quite how it could be taken. What I should have said, and what I meant was that 'nobody who posted in this thread' and 'only one person who posted in this thread' rather than blanketing the rest of the PPC as well. That being said, do you mind if I ask who you felt you would be attacked by? I am aware of the hostility shown towards you by both Zdimensia and Myth, but part of me wonders if that was what you meant. And I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but it is a natural reaction for me, because I was wondering how many people would attack me for my stance with this issue. I was already formulating in my head a post in case I felt so attacked that I had to, either voluntarily or not, leave the PPC. I also feel I should apologise to Ozzielot, for my last post, given their reaction to my first post and how it may of looked when I used the terminology that I did in my previous one.
However if you look at the people who had posted before the email was sent and their responses to this matter then you have Tomash, Thoth, Mikelus, Phobos, Scapegrace, Nesh, Delta and Granz all on the side of "They're Zdimensia, let's ban them now." And no one who posted on any other side. The closest we get to a neutral comment is Thoth saying "Myth, I continue to be skeptical that you aren't Bram," in a follow up post or Granz's complaint about the re-application of the ban in their initial post. Does that not strike you as being overwhelmingly negative, all things considered? Could that not be construed as dogpiling, whether it actually was or not? I think it may. And I think that is how I read it when I was looking at it last night.
I should of thought better of some of my fellow PPCers and I'm sorry I didn't, I hadn't really thought of Mythcreant being a meat-puppet for Zdimensia, or at least I hadn't til you'd posted both of your replies. Before the first one I would have said that at worst Mythcreant was a friend of Zdimensia's who wanted to help their friend out. But now, now I'm not so sure. -
On the numbers. by
on 2018-03-26 14:36:00 UTC
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I'm honestly surprised no one else joined you in objecting to our conclusion. I do still appreciate that you did it, but at some point, you have to consider that being the lone voice crying in the wilderness doesn't make you the only sane man, but the only one who hasn't realized there's a great place to camp over the next hill.
More honesty: I wasn't totally comfortable with DJ rebanning the IP before more people had spoken up. However, there have been a number of times in recent (and not so recent) years where the PPC has been accused of not acting quickly enough to deal with problems. That's why I was not terribly inclined to complain about it.
Now, having stumbled on the same information as hS, my certainty that this was the right move is at 100%. We are in no way, shape, or form obligated or equipped to handle this person. It's not safe for anyone, perhaps especially including her, which I'll point out is the same conclusion we reached each time she was banned before. This feeling isn't new, but confirmed repeatedly though a great deal of experience. Even if Mythcreant were a friend and not Zdimensia herself, I believe she would be doing her "friend" a severe disservice by continuing any association between her and us.
~Neshomeh -
Re: that. by
on 2018-03-26 10:48:00 UTC
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-Given that the last time I said someone appeared to have done something wrong, I was dramatically smacked down, I did not and do not feel it worth my misery to say anything either way. I was extremely dubious about posting the email, even.
-Of the people who you list as responding, four of the nine (including Phobos as Mr. Neshomeh) I can absolutely confirm were already thinking about it. The chat logs show that multiple other people were too.
I get what you're saying. In the two hours between Tomash's post and the conversation falling silent (for the night?) after Delta's block, no-one who didn't feel Mythcreant = Zdimensia said anything. But... look at the timeline again, and show me the dogpile.
-Tomash can't be dogpiling, he said it first.
-Thoth was the first response, that can't be a dogpile.
-Scapegrace was second. I guess being the third post could be dogpiling?
-Mikelus originally responded to tell Scapegrace she was going too far (I think you missed this post, btw - I know I did).
-Then Mikelus addressed Mythcreant's comments about mediation. Dogpile? I don't think so; it's not a 'you should be blocked' post.
-Phobos offered a fourth 'block' vote, which could definitely be dogpiling. He was clearly aware of this, as he specifically asked people not to.
-Neshomeh could be dogpiling; it depends on whether you think the evidence she presents is new or just rephrasing of what's already been said.
-Scapegrace.
-Delta Juliette was acting as a Named Nameless Admin & Discord Mod. That isn't dogpiling, that's her job.
-Granz was objecting to the block.
-I was acting as a Nameless Admin.
-You definitely weren't dogpiling.
The only people you can reasonably accuse of dogpiling behaviour are Scapegrace and Neshomeh, and it bears repeating that someone (Mikelus) chided Scapegrace at least for that prior to your posting, and someone else (Phobos) acted directly to prevent a dogpile.
'Mythcreant' made this post at 9.02pm. It consists of 'Mythcreant' repeating Zdimensia's own old excuses about why she should never have been banned, repeated in exactly the same way as she presented them. This post is 100% convincing to me that 'Mythcreant' = Zdimensia, and assuming you accept Scapegrace's explanation of her first post, the only people calling for a ban before that second post appeared were Tomash and Thoth. Everyone else had that, plus this and this, to help them make up their minds.
This wasn't a foregone conclusion. 'Mythcreant' was given a chance to respond, and she chose to use it in attempting once again to revoke Zdimensia's ban, in exactly the way Zdimensia always did. The Mythcreant = Zdimensia connection hasn't been drawn because people saw the shared IP and went 'better safe than sorry' - it's been drawn because people looked at the evidence and concluded that they were the same person. In other words, she was 'innocent until proven guilty' - but for the people who posted in the thread, there was enough evidence to prove her guilty.
hS -
Responses by
on 2018-03-26 21:44:00 UTC
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-Duly noted and understood, I remember the last time. And I thank you for posting the email, it has certainly helped me make my mind up on this matter, and has at last given some form of proof in this whole matter.
-I can understand. However without the full information available to me at the time, I hope you can also see where my point of view was coming from. I had to paint a picture with what I had, and what I saw from that was not very positive or good.
-I'd put the start of the dogpiling around the Scape/Mikelus/Phobos mark, with Nesh's comment then adding to the dogpile which then wasn't followed up, probably because of Phobos' second post. I am aware Phobos asked for people not to (and yes, I did completely miss Mikel's post), however that was the point for me, reading it through afterwards where it felt like it was turning into such a one-sided discussion it just wasn't fair anymore. If Phobos had simply said, don't dogpile and then, after a gap went and cast his vote then I wouldn't of seen it as a dogpile, but the anti-dogpile thing, I mean even when I read it now I don't see it as a comment to stop a dogpile of people wanting to ban Myth, just a comment to stop people arguing with them instead. But that's just what I see.
-Can I just clarify what you mean by 'second post'? Because if you're talking about Scape's second post then you're wrong. Because Nesh and Phobos both posted before that post came up, and they were both of the mind that Mythcreant needed to at least leave the Board, if not be banned from it. But even if you're talking about Myth's second post, or even the post you linked of Myth's, then Scape's inital outburst precedes both of them.
I'm not going to try and deny why those posts made people think that Myth was Bram, I can kinda see why they would make that link. I just didn't myself.
And no, I do not accept Scape's explanation.
-I have calmed down since last night and this morning, and I can now see where more people were coming from. However to me, like I have said or alluded to elsewhere, that circumstantial evidence was not, and will never be enough for me. I have since come across evidence that is proof enough for me to change my opinion of Mythcreant, and thus whether they are Bram or not. I cannot any longer continue to try and claim that I believe that Mythcreant is not guilty of being Bram, that the reason Mythcreant knew Bram is because they are Bram is no longer a fringe thought in my mind. And I no longer see a friend repeating the same arguments of their friend's because that's the only arguments they know of, because those are the arguments they honestly feel are valid and just haven't been accepted yet by the other side. I... concede that a block is needed at least temporarily, as for the permaban? My mind is not made up on that one. Not yet anyhow.
Novastorme. -
'Second post' is an editing mishap. by
on 2018-03-26 22:57:00 UTC
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I meant the post by Mythcreant that I linked at the top of that paragraph. As I noted, if you accept Scapegrace's assertion that her initial comment was directed at Zdimensia rather than 'Mythcreant', only two people had called for the block to be reinstated at that point.
For the rest of your post, the only comment I will make is that Zdimensia is a permanently banned user. If Mythcreant is Zdimensia, then that ban remains in force unless a majority vote overturns it. The IP block is simply a technical measure to prevent violation of the ban.
hS -
Sorry for the late reply. by
on 2018-03-28 08:22:00 UTC
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Work just got way too busy yesterday.
Anyway, thank you for the clarification.
Hmm, yes I understand and I may have made a mistake (for some reason I'm not too sure of) when I last posted in thinking that the block and ban were somehow different. But what I was more meaning in my last paragraph was that I believed an IP block was necessary regardless of whether Myth was/is Bram. I was saying that I have doubts over whether Myth really is Bram or not and, separately, I understand that if they the same person then they do need to be immediately blocked and banned, however even if they aren't the same person I still think it would be better for Myth to be at least blocked/banned alongside Bram. -
I see we've reached the "insults and threats" phase. by
on 2018-03-25 22:48:00 UTC
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Not that it's a serious threat, unless she's deliberately suggesting her own stories will give people a bad impression of us and tarnish our brand?
(We will, of course, make a note on the wiki that any "PPC" works by Zdimensia under any alias are not remotely condoned by the PPC.)
~Neshomeh -
So we're now banning people because we suspect them... by
on 2018-03-25 11:24:00 UTC
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No real vote, no real discussion, a few key members say they must be someone else so they get banned? That's not a community I want any part of.
I'm going to quote hS from the Makkara incident: "Once it was confirmed that 'Makkara' was Zdimensia, her ban was re-enforced. No escalation, just standard following of the rules."
We suspect, Mythcreant is Zdimensia, but nowhere is it confirmed. -
Summary blocks by
on 2018-03-25 15:43:00 UTC
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The Nameless Admin does have the power to, in clear cases, just block people without a full vote of some sort. For example, if someone start spamming ads for online pharmacies, we block the IP, delete the posts, and move on. There's no need to hold a full vote about it.
Now, in this case, we have someone, first of all, who was using zdimensia's last known IP address. This had to be unblocked by the Nameless Admin to allow Mythcreant to post, which was, to my understanding, done because they might not be zdimensia.
However, it became quite clear that this person was zdimensia (for another datapoint, here's some very zdimensia-like views on making people keep talking to you). In my view, the fact that we were re-applying an IP block on what was almost certainly a user who had been banned with full constitutional process (several times) puts us right at the edge of "we don't need another full vote on this" territory.
I'd like to note that, if it hadn't been for the whole "previously blocked IP" thing, a somewhat longer wait (probably not a fully counted vote unless people were objecting, but more taking a day or two to make sure people had had a chance to see the post) would have been in order.
So yeah, for me, this situation is almost one that requires a full "let's wait to make sure people could get their views in" discussion, but, because of the very strong evidence, isn't one.
- Tomash -
The shared IP is pretty strong juju. by
on 2018-03-25 15:14:00 UTC
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And I'm pretty sure their explanation that they have Zdimensia's IP because Zdimensia was staying with them is patent nonsense. Like... that would mean Zdimensia gave Mythcreant her computer for some reason, right? Tech-folk, help me out here.
Also, the conversation is not over, as DJ made clear in her post. What would you like to say on Mythcreant's behalf if you don't agree they're another sockpuppet of a banned user? Persuade us.
~Neshomeh -
So my job is to prove their innocence? by
on 2018-03-25 18:52:00 UTC
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Because at the moment it looks like you, and other people are looking at this as 'guilty until proven innocent'. While I'm looking at it as 'innocent until proven guilty'. And like I said, I see a lot of hypotheticals and potentials, but no definite proof. I'm not meaning this as an attack or anything, I'm just saying that's what it looks like from my Point of View.
I haven't had any conversation with Mythcreant about this, I can't claim to be speaking the exact truth, or saying what they want me to say. But what I can say is what I see and why I don't think it means that Mythcreant is Zdimensia.
First up, the formatting. We're not the only community on the internet, and so just because what we see as unusual formatting here, does not mean that it is a mark of a specific user, heck if I actually knew how to do it on here, I'd be using that bar a lot more too. Why? Because I know of several communities I am in, or have been in where the use of that bar is not only not unusual, but seen as perfectly normal. Mythcreant could have come from one of those communities, or another one like them that uses the bar like that and just used it in their posts.
Secondly the IP address, which has been covered by other people. It doesn't offer any proof, only that Zdimensia posted from the same building/area as Mythcreant on one of their accounts.
Thirdly, the logs. So first of all, with respect to the whole Name of the Wind opinion thing, I decided to look up Name of the Wind reviews on Google, and I found this: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/305264406 which, I think you'll find does indeed correspond with a lot of what Mythcreant is saying about the book, and the main character in particular. I haven't read all of the comments on the blog, so the only thing that I can't find is where someone says Kvothe is based off a D&D character, but at the same time from reading the review I could see where it was coming from.
With the introduction and the questionings of what Bram did I see an inquisitive newbie who's just asking because they want to know, and this is then further matched when they say about bits of PPC knowledge that aren't common knowledge, after all what's wrong with a bit of wiki diving? I know I do it from time to time too. The comments on Zdimensia being autistic and that potentially being the reason for the communication troubles is not a opinion held by a small group of people, it's a widely accepted fact that people who are on the autism spectrum can have problems with communicating, so what is wrong with going "oh they're autistic, that could be why they had trouble communicating" when it is a commonly held view and fact. Just because Zdimensia's alts said it doesn't mean that everybody who says it is one of Zdimensia's alts.
Now with respect to the changing stories of how well Mythcreant knew Zdimensia, if you knew someone who'd been banned or barred from a community would you openly mention it to them when you first came in and wanted them to accept you? I know I certainly wouldn't. From how I would act in a situation like that, what Mythcreant did, is perfectly normal, as people keep digging and digging reveal more and more of the truth to try and keep them happy and to let them know the truth, because Mythcreant could have easily lied and said "No I don't know her, it's just unlucky." But they don't, they reveal the truth because in the end they feel like they need to. And as to Zdimensia being more and more of a problem with Mythcreant as a mediator, well we've seen what happens otherwise, how many times has Zdimensia tried to get around the ban while hiding behind falsehoods and lies? How many other failed attempts do we not know about? How do we know that Zdimensia won't try and try again, whether we block Mythcreant or not? I'll say this. Mythcreant has provided a credible story with enough back up and support if you look for it, which is not something that Zdimensia has ever done in the past that I am aware of.
I accept that a lot of the above does not offer definite proof, but I am also aware that it, for the most part, can provide an alternate point of view when it comes to Mythcreant and their actions. Even in the best case scenario it is an unfortunate amount of coincidences and similarities between a banned user and a newbie, that could under a certain light been seen as the newbie being the banner user trying to get around said ban. If more evidence comes to light that could change my view on this case, then obviously I will review it and potentially change my status from there. But with all the evidence that we have at this moment, after I have looked through it, and done my research on it, I would say that we do not have enough evidence to say that Mythcreant is Zdimensia, and so the ban that was placed upon them is both unfair and unjust. I am not saying that they are definitely innocent, merely that we do not have enough evidence to definitely say they are guilty. And, if we are a community that can deliver justice, as I and others believed we should be, then that lack of evidence would mean that Mythcreant is innocent until proven guilty.
Novastorme -
A bit too soon? by
on 2018-03-25 21:12:00 UTC
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So I just went on Discord and noticed this in the upstairs channel (where the mods talk):
"[9:06 PM] PoorCynic: A permanent ban has been put into place for user Mythcreant."
Too soon? -
Clarification by
on 2018-03-25 21:40:00 UTC
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I should of made this clearer when I posted this. I do not dispute a kicking of Mythcreant, what I am disputing is the permanent ban as it now means that they no longer have the ability to defend themselves in this matter in any reasonable way. Added onto the fact that not only do I now not have any means of communicating with them, but none of us do.
If I were in Mythcreants shoes at this point. I wouldn't want to return no matter what the final decision is, you've all made it pretty obvious to them that you don't want them around.
Novastorme -
Why do we owe a banned person that? by
on 2018-03-25 21:55:00 UTC
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Myth did not come here to be a part of the community. They came here to cause trouble.
We don't want them around because they are Bramandin, and we have gone over this matter so many times we're beating the half-eaten carcass of a dead horse now. She's been banned not once, but twice, and now you want to give her the chance to make it a third? Because that's what "Myth" wants, to negotiate her way back into the PPC to keep on going.
I get physically sick to my stomach when I have to remember the crap she put me specifically through. I have nightmares about it. You remember why she got temporarily banned in the first place? For harrassing me? Because I do. And what I'm hearing is "You're all wrong for not wanting to give her another chance to do it again." -
Why indeed. by
on 2018-03-26 00:22:00 UTC
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Because, at the time of your post, if I had seen it instantly and replied to it, then I would have replied defending my point of view, that at that point I had almost no doubt in my mind that Mythcreant and Bram were separate people. hS's evidence has introduced some of that doubt, but that response came almost 30 minutes after this one. So I shall respond to this first.
I am aware of what Bram did, what they put you through. I remember, because I was there. I remember because I had tried to help Bram at first when they were still allowed to post missions, and I remember because I saw a bit of myself in them. Not a lot but enough for me to want to try and help them as much as I could. I saw how any trust I had put into them was misplaced, and I saw the events that unfolded. But that's not the point of this matter, and I don't want you to have to go through any of that again, so I'm sorry for the fact that you feel like you have had to bring it up again.
However, while you are so firm in their belief that they are Bram, I at the time of your response was just as firm that they were not. That meant, that yes, while I was happy to admit that Mythcreant knew Bram, I felt that it did not mean you should tar them with the same brush. Now to quote you "They came here to cause trouble." No, they didn't and I'll tell you why. Pentagon, they came here to cause trouble. Toroll comes here to cause trouble. but Mythcreant? No, they didn't, they came here to get the lay of the land so to speak. They came to see what was being said about Bram, after having heard Bram's side of it, they wanted the PPC's. Ultimately I have no doubt they would of agreed with more of what Bram said than we did, but I believe they would of actually been a mediator between Brams new alias and the PPC eventually. Did they come here to be part of the community? I'm not sure on that one, in some ways, yes they did and they were integrating fairly well, in others no, because their ultimate goal was contrary to the community's.
"We don't want them around because they are Bramandin" Who's this we and where is your definite 100% proof this is Bram? That's all I'm asking for here. Unless there is something that you knew at the time you posted this that you did not want to share with the Board or me, there was no proof that this was Bram, and so I felt like it was my duty to stand up for Mythcreant, to stand up when no one else would and say "Is this really just and fair? That we can ban someone because we suspect they are someone else with no definite proof?" My argument was never trying to prove Mythcreant was innocent of everything, I was always trying to prove that they were not guilty of being Bramandin, by putting enough pressure on the fact that, at that time, all we had was circumstantial evidence to prove they were Bramandin, and that we should, as a community, model ourselves on being just and fair and ask that before we ban someone for some wrongdoing prove that they are without a reasonable doubt guilty of this wrongdoing not that they are without a doubt innocent. If we want to prove that we are better than people like Bram, and Grimalkinii and Toroll say we are, then we have to act like it.
Novastorme
P.S This is my opinion, all of it. And like anyone else, I reserve the right to change my opinion, especially with the information that hS has brought to light. But at the moment, all I can go off of is what I see, and so I wanted this post to be what I was going off of what I saw, what I felt and what I knew when Ix posted their response, nothing else. -
Those are good counterpoints (nm) by
on 2018-03-25 20:59:00 UTC
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-
I'm going to critique just one particular point... by
on 2018-03-25 20:20:00 UTC
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First, Nova, I think you make very good points for the most part. You're right; it's all but impossible to prove for a fact that Mythcreant is Zdimensia. From what I've read, all we really have is circumstantial evidence (though there is a lot of that).
But I want to look at this particular thing you said: "Now with respect to the changing stories of how well Mythcreant knew Zdimensia, if you knew someone who'd been banned or barred from a community would you openly mention it to them when you first came in and wanted them to accept you? I know I certainly wouldn't." That's a good point and would explain a lot of Mythcreant's behavior early in the logs, but when they were asked point-blank if they were Zdimensia/Bramandin, that would've been the time to come clean. Instead, Mythcreant made a rather callous remark about the people involved in banning Bramandin.
Also looking at the logs, Mythcreant's knowledge of the PPC went well beyond a wiki walk. They referenced spinoffs hosted on fanfiction.net, a platform from which the PPC was kicked because of the nature of what the PPC does. Those spinoffs would be difficult to find on the PPC wiki. -
Could I ask for proof of this "callous remark" by
on 2018-03-25 21:10:00 UTC
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Because here's what I'm seeing:
Iximaz-Today at 10:35 AM
So are you or are you not actually Bramandin?
Mythcreant-Today at 10:35 AM
Nope.
Iximaz-Today at 10:35 AM
Right. Forgive me if I don’t believe you.
I’m stepping away from this now.
Mythcreant-Today at 10:38 AM
I know my city isn't very big, but what are the statistics on two people coming from the same area?
I mean, you get 30 people in the same room, 2 of them are almost certain to share the same birthday.
I mean, the only problem I see with that is the Birthday Paradox bit, and that's because IIRC you need at least 30 people to be in the same room for it to be certain, not almost certain. And the only reason I know that is because I had to research it as part of my postgrad studies. Looking at the rest of that conversation I don't really see a callous remark about the people involved in banning Bram. The closest I can see is this:
"Mythcreant-Today at 10:59 AM
That's a new one. The comments I read was that brown people were scowling at them."
Which while potentially inaccurate, is not really a callous remark, let alone aimed at the people who banned Bram. -
I was talking about that last one you mentioned. by
on 2018-03-25 21:20:00 UTC
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I read it as Mythcreant saying that Bramandin was banned because brown people were mad at them, which left me speechless when I read it. Perhaps I misread the comment, but it struck me as offensive.
-
Ah OK by
on 2018-03-25 21:56:00 UTC
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See I was reading it as Mythcreant saying that Bram said that essentially they were banned because 'brown people' were mad at them. The reason why I put brown people in quotes is because reading back through the logs without context it looks to me like Bram is insulting people of colour (sorry, don't quite know what the politically correct term is so went for this one. I'm not trying to offend here), when the comments are made about the racist remarks. Fully reading through it it's not, but it could be construed as such.
So how I saw this was Mythcreant paraphrasing what Bram had said, rather than Mythcreant having a go at the people who had agreed to ban Bram themsleves.
I hope that makes sense? Although to be fair we could both be misreading the comment, the only person who could tell us the true meaning of it is Mythcreant. -
Context. by
on 2018-03-26 10:01:00 UTC
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From memory--this was one of the things Bram said at some point that was seen as problematic. It wasn't about the people who voted for a ban; iirc, it was said before the banning (of Bram; I don't remember the sequence of events, but this may have been before we knew that Bramandin and zdimensia were the same person), and ended up being taken as racist and, I believe, as another reason for the eventual ban. I think Bram's side of the story was that it had actually happened and so mentioning it was telling the truth rather than being racist. Something along those lines. Other PPCers objected to the wording and the way it was brought up, and that it was brought up at all, too, I think.
Mythcreant most likely did mean that Bram had mentioned it as a/the reason for the ban; it would stretch belief for it to have been intended to be about the banners, given the original context (where it was said about people Bram had seen IRL). However, this was not the only reason for the ban. See the relevant threads for more detail if you want it straight from the source. I think the bit Mythcreant referenced was either in one or in close proximity to one (probably the latter), too. It certainly would have been brought up in a banning thread as well, most likely with a link to the original post.
~Z, done for now. Hope that's enough context for clarity; do feel free to check it further in the archives. -
I dunno about that last bit. by
on 2018-03-25 20:42:00 UTC
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"Those spinoffs [hosted on fanfiction.net] would be difficult to find on the PPC wiki."
Not really? Spin-offs aren't listed by platform. If you look for missions in a particular department, you get a list ordered by number of stories and then alphabetically by agent name. If you look for missions in a particular fandom, you get a list ordered by agent name or by story name. If you look through the Killed Badfic lists, you get missions ordered by fandom, then by story name. I think the chances of hitting on something on ff.net would relate mostly to how old the spin-off is, and would tend to correlate with fandoms that were popular when the PPC was new, such as LotR and Harry Potter.
There's also a good chance of finding missions on ff.net if you're poking into the PPC's history, checking out references on department pages and such. Making that sort of information easier to access is a big part of what the wiki is for.
~Neshomeh -
Thank you for the alternative viewpoint. by
on 2018-03-25 19:37:00 UTC
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I understand what you're saying, and I'm sorry for putting you in the hot seat. I don't think you're obligated to be Mythcreant's advocate or anything; but I do think it is the responsibility of all members to speak out if they disagree with a procedure like this. I very much appreciate that you've done so. Thank you.
I absolutely agree with you that we should presume innocence until guilt is proven. I believe Mythcreant was given that chance when her request for the IP to be unblocked was granted.
I think your interpretation is reasonable, and if it weren't for the history of Zdimensia repeatedly deceiving us to try to get back into the community, which you mention yourself, I'd be far more inclined toward it. However, like I said in my initial post, I think the far simpler and therefore more likely explanation is that this is Zdimensia performing yet another deception with the same goal of getting back into the community.
I also agree with Ix that, even on the outside chance this is a different person, they immediately decided they needed to grind an axe with us over an issue we've hashed and rehashed already, and we have no obligation to let them drag it up again.
And, for a completely subjective point, I was right when I recognized Makkara as Zdimensia the last time, by more or less the same criteria of mannerisms. (Her difficulty remembering or using the names of stories and agents, and the way she talks about them, is a particularly strong ping on my radar.) I'm inclined to trust my gut on this.
This isn't me closing the debate, though. This is me explaining why I see it the way I do. If there are others who see it differently, I'd very much like for them to say so.
~Neshomeh -
Here's the thing... by
on 2018-03-25 19:01:00 UTC
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Even on the highly unlikely chance Myth isn't Bram, they still came here with the intent of stirring up trouble and demanding we unban Bram after that case was closed and done. They didn't come here acting in good faith, threatening to make things worse if we refused to consider taking Bram back, and I see no reason why they should not be banned as well.
-
Actually, no. by
on 2018-03-25 16:02:00 UTC
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It may mean any of the following:
- zdimensia used Mythcreant’s computer while she stayed with her.
- zdimensia brought her own computer, but used Mythcreant’s router/modem to connect to the internet (what we see is the router’s address, not a specific device within the local network).
- While pretending to be "Makarra", zdimensia used a public internet access point different from all access points she used before that, and she now uses the same access point pretending to be "Mythcreant".
- Before she became "Makarra", zdimensia switched to a different provider to get a new IP address, and she is still using that.
- Something I don’t think of.
Although having been an IT person for many years, I’m not very tech savvy concerning the internet; some other tech person may correct me.
HG - zdimensia used Mythcreant’s computer while she stayed with her.
-
Yes, there are alternate scenarios by
on 2018-03-25 16:37:00 UTC
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Because it was possible that Mythcreant wasn't zdimensia, I pointed them at the Nameless Admin, who unblocked them. This was a good decision. Having an innocent newbie trapped behind someone else's block would have been bad.
However, the IP match combined with the subsequent zdimensia-like patterns of behavior (which several people agreed existed), in my opinion, combined to make a case that our initial assumption that Mythcreant was not zdimensia was an error, and so the block was reapplied. That was also a good decision.
- Tomash -
Okay, thanks for clarifying. by
on 2018-03-25 16:48:00 UTC
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I'll just stand by the way the story kept changing being extremely dubious if not outright unbelievable, then.
~Neshomeh -
How would you get confirmation ... by
on 2018-03-25 12:46:00 UTC
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... beyond what has already been said? Mythcreant admitting that they actually are zdimensia will probably not happen. So, the only way I can think of: ask more Boarders, who have been around at the time, to read through this thread and the chat logs linked above, and then tell us what they think. I don’t feel comfortable depending on the few people who always do that.
HG, going to read the logs now. -
It might not be much, but it might help. by
on 2018-03-25 14:59:00 UTC
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This is an oddly specific formatting that set off flags. Note the divider.
Mythcreant: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=314792;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
Bram (relayed by Tomash): http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=310971;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
-Ozzielot -
Two things... by
on 2018-03-25 02:56:00 UTC
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Firstly, upon reviewing things, particularly this thread, I think this is accurate, and I would ask that zdimensia stay away, in large part because I think this is harmful to her as well. This focus on the PPC and rejoining it is not going to solve anything or heal anyone. It will only deepen old wounds and inflict new ones.
However, I do have a complaint. In my opinion, the removing and re-application of the ban was too swift. There was no consensus with clear abstainees reached, the ban and removal were applied not even four, no, three hours after the original post of this sub-thread, and a link to this sub-thread was not, to my knowledge, posted in the Discord, which I feel would have been appropriate given that this involves both the Board and Discord. Even though I agree with the conclusions of this subthread, I do not like the way this occurred. -
Clarification. by
on 2018-03-25 07:56:00 UTC
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-At no point has Zdimensia's ban been lifted. Zdimensia is still a banned user. In response to an email from someone who could not be determined to be Zdimensia at the time, a single IP address was unblocked as a technical measure.
-The Nameless Admin has a duty to ensure that banned users who continue to post to the Board are blocked on identification. Since there is a clear consensus that 'Mythcreant' is Zdimensia, this was done. If tha consensus is overturned, the IP block will be removed once again, and an apology should be tendered to Mythcreant by the PPC Community. -
Seconded, readded to ban list by
on 2018-03-25 02:24:00 UTC
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And punted/blocked from the Discord. I'm open to further conversation, if people think this was the wrong move- but several people have come to the same (blatantly obvious) conclusion.
This is an immediate banning rather than following full constitutional process because it's continuing an existing ban rather than a new one. -
Occam's Razor says ban. by
on 2018-03-25 02:10:00 UTC
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Same mannerisms; same IP; unusually keen interest in the history of this person they share an IP with, which they somehow didn't seem to be aware of initially, despite later claiming to know the person; complete inability to fathom the concept that Zdimensia was in the wrong...
It's clearly banned user Zdimensia, please block the IP again.
~Neshomeh -
There were plenty of times that they were wrong. by
on 2018-03-25 02:17:00 UTC
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I have the IP because she was staying with me.
My mannerisms may be similar because we have a lot in common.
And to reiterate, there were plenty of times that she was wrong. If you'll actually listen to them, I'll type the list. -
Explanations by
on 2018-03-25 01:32:00 UTC
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I know her. I didn't want to tell you this immediately, but here we are.
A lot of the stuff you say about her is completely wrong. You've dismissed her point of view by calling her variations on crazy, which happens to be a gaslighting technique.
I don't completely have your side of the story, so there are some things that she said that might be inaccurate. The truth is probably between your two versions of what happened.
She's in an institution right now, so I'd like to wait until she gets out to discuss this.
You're probably going to have more problems with her if you don't let me mediate. -
To paraphrase Scott Adams: by
on 2018-03-25 01:37:00 UTC
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There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of the banhammer.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Or do. It'll be funny. -
To quote another Brit. by
on 2018-03-25 11:19:00 UTC
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"Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Or do. It'll be funny."
I'm sorry. But am I the only person here who feels like this was uncalled for? -
So I'm banned for knowing someone? by
on 2018-03-25 01:45:00 UTC
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That's even richer than banning Bram for having autism.
To quote Maxewelle: There was the talking about "oh, they're autistic, what if we're just having a communication disconnect," and we eventually decided with some input from other autistic borders that this was not the case.
I'd like to know a little bit about the other autistic boarders and how well they can judge... Did they even acknowledge that all autistic people are different? -
A brief explanation: by
on 2018-03-25 02:13:00 UTC
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You mentioned that were going to have "a lot of problems with Bram in future" unless you were acted as a mediator. Thus the quote, which was directed at Bram, not you. If you want to join a writing group, basic reading comprehension does tend to help.
Of course, since you're almost certainly Bram anyway (could this account be a more obvious instance of Asking For A Friend?), the point is somewhat moot. Bram's banned already for a multitude of very good reasons that have been listed elsewhere - not "having autism", which is complete arse btw - and if you're trying to stir things up about it then we don't want you around either.
Door. Hitting. Way. Out. This conversation is over. -
Sorry Phobos, didn't see your post. (nm) by
on 2018-03-25 02:48:00 UTC
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-
Not even close by
on 2018-03-25 02:08:00 UTC
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You are already banned because you are zdimensia. The way you phrase things, the way you format things, and the way you react to things is uncannily familiar. Me and my siblings don't even sound that similar. The odds that you would happen to show up with that specific banned IP address, sounding exactly like zdimensia, and not actually being zdimensia are so small as to be written off as a statistical anomaly.
We aren't buying it. We do not want you here. Leave.
To everyone else: Stop responding to zdimensia/Bramandin/TooPurple/Makara/Mythcreant.
-Phobos -
That's not true. by
on 2018-03-25 02:14:00 UTC
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I'm seeing a pattern of jumping to conclusions and then stubbornly refusing to listen to anything that shows that they are wrong.
-
Ok, hold up. by
on 2018-03-25 01:51:00 UTC
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Zdemensia was not banned for being autistic. They were banned for repeated violations of the constitution and violations of temporary bans. The idea of mediation had been brought up before, and it became clear that it would not work.
Second, we have nothing beyond your word that you are not Zdemensia. Personally, I still think you are. -
Did she deserve that, though? by
on 2018-03-25 02:02:00 UTC
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Did anyone talk to her about the racism? Until I asked her that, she'd forgotten about someone on IRC where the TLDR was that she wasn't racist or being scowled at, but then they said that everyone was racist. She didn't have time to process that and tell people before the ban kicked in.
Also, she had volunteered to leave, and because of a misunderstanding what might have been a short ban turned into one that was way too long.
She doesn't hate other races or want to oppress them. She just didn't know that being color-aware wasn't a bad thing.
For the September ban... She agreed to a block that wasn't a ban and it was supposed to simply end. Did anyone tell her that it was changed to a ban and that there would be a vote? A lot of people were telling untruths during that post as well. -
Wrong. by
on 2018-03-25 02:26:00 UTC
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>For the September ban... She agreed to a block that wasn't a ban and it was supposed to simply end. Did anyone tell her that it was changed to a ban and that there would be a vote? A lot of people were telling untruths during that post as well.
I was present for that vote. That is a gross misrepresentation. She agreed to a block with review in September, and the possibility to rejoin. That review went poorly for her, and she was banned permanently. Then she impersonated other community members in an attempt to return. IMHO, that's enough to warrent a permaban in and of itself. It's inexcusable. She subsequently pretended to be someone else in order to re-enter the community. After having been banned repeatedly.
Bram has shown a consistant disregard for the rules and standards of behavior of this community. Rules that are far from exclusive to us, and are present in almost every online community. Impersonation, continual ban evasion, and breaking rules despite being warned repeatedly are not infractions for which ignorance is an excuse.
Myth, I continue to be skeptical that you aren't Bram, and your continual alteration of your story (first claiming it was "odd" that you were banned, and (by my recollection, which may be wrong) claiming ignorance of anything to do with Bram) isn't helping your case. Ordinarily, I would be more willing to consider, but Bram has repeatedly shown herself able and willing to lie and engage in amoral behavior in attempts to return to this community. And Phobos's point about your mannerisms also stands: you are far too similar to Bram for me to believe you're anyone else. -
Phobos also said stop responding, so let's do that, please. (nm) by
on 2018-03-25 02:31:00 UTC
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-
I think that was going too far. by
on 2018-03-25 01:42:00 UTC
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To put it more reasonably: We don’t want a mediator. The situation is resolved as far as the community is concerned, and Zdemensia returning can easily be settled by banhammer. At this point, there are no valid excuses for their behavior, and there is too much bad blood for a friendly result to moderation.
-
Valid excuses... by
on 2018-03-25 01:54:00 UTC
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Are you saying that constantly getting shouted down, ignored, and outright attacked aren't valid excuses for getting angry?
I saw a post where she told someone that they had pushed her buttons and they dismissed it as untrue. -
Yeah... I'm pretty sure this is accurate. by
on 2018-03-25 01:09:00 UTC
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I probably should have said something sooner, actually... Sorry.
-
Thoughts on how to handle this going forward. by
on 2018-03-25 12:56:00 UTC
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I didn't want to talk to other community members about this one because it would be completely unjustifiable on the off-chance that Mythcreant and zdimensia weren't the same person. How would we, as a community, apologize effectively for doing that? I decided to leave it to other people to figure out.
I think those people came to the right conclusions, but I also feel bad about just waiting for other people to solve the problem instead of being more proactive. I realize that this is obviously a special case, but in case it does come up again, does anyone have suggestions for how to report ban evasion attempts in the future? -
My process (which ought to generalize) by
on 2018-03-25 16:44:00 UTC
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- (optional) People pointed out the possible ban evasion to me.
1. Once I had suspicions, I checked with someone else whose opinions I trusted (it probably would've been several people if some of them hadn't already pointed it out to me first) to make sure I wasn't seeing things.
2. I called it. The community enforces the Constitution, after all.
- Tomash
- (optional) People pointed out the possible ban evasion to me.
-
Welcome aBoard! by
on 2018-03-24 17:01:00 UTC
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Have one of my own shed feathers and a complimentary kit of Spikes!
-
Welcome to Creation, here's your shove. by
on 2018-03-24 04:36:00 UTC
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This shovel...
...
Whoops, I grabbed a mundane one this time. Well, instead of a magical shovel, have a couple terrible puns!
What do you call a bunch of female bunnies hanging out with one male? A hare-em!
The defendant was a runty beetle. His innocent plea was "I'm not bad, I'm just a little weevil."
What do you call a lemon with a degree in architecture? Acidic engineer!
Thank you, Cincinnati, I'll be here all week! -
Welcome! by
on 2018-03-24 03:04:00 UTC
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Hello Hello Hello
Glad to have you with us, please accept this plastic spork. -
Welcome aboard! by
on 2018-03-24 02:59:00 UTC
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Welcome to the Board! Here, have some chocolate and enjoy your stay!
-
Salutations! by
on 2018-03-24 02:26:00 UTC
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Have the PPC newbie survival kit: A half-kilo of lembas and a laspistol (short for laser pistol).
-
Hello newbie. by
on 2018-03-23 19:19:00 UTC
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Please have a pot of black-hole coffee. Did you read the Constitution and the Original Series? Did you have the occasion of visiting the wiki too? And last thing, if you read spin-offs, what are your favorites ones?
And now all the questions I could think about are asked, let me wish you welcome here to the PPC. Hope you'll like it and stick around. -
spinoffs by
on 2018-03-23 20:36:00 UTC
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There was one where Hobbits were trying to buy chocolate... was that also the one with the letter?
There was a story where the LOTR cast was almost poisoned by drinking soda. The tool hurt Gollum.
There was a recruitment story where a super-soldier fell out of a half-written story...
There was one where Pinkie Pie was breaking the forth wall too much so the agents drugged her and had the agent stand-in for her remaining part of the story...
There was another MLP where Cadence was possessed and would have killed the agent except the sue-wraith just wanted to make him suffer before letting him go.
There's the one about the Cafeteria workers stealing drugged tater tots from an RC.
There was one where the agent didn't have enough faith in the exorcism ritual so it backfired.
There was one where the agents gave a cannon a manicure. -
I see you got it working. Welcome aBoard! =] (nm) by
on 2018-03-23 18:21:00 UTC
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-
First plover! by
on 2018-03-23 12:59:00 UTC
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What are your fandoms, BTW?
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Fandoms... by
on 2018-03-23 13:11:00 UTC
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Well, I'm not really a part of any Fan communities... What I've heard of Steven Universe and what I've briefly seen of Supernatural is a bit nutty.
I'm a casual watcher. I've been watching House lately. I watched some Doctor Who last fall but got kinda bored with Billy's arc. 10 and 11 were better. I'm kinda into Big Bang Theory.
I like Name of the Wind but last I heard the third book isn't out a decade after the second book was published. Kvothe is kinda sueish, but that might be some embellishment because he's telling his own story. The next time I pick up a book, it's probably going to be The Familiar Dragon trilogy.
I haven't watched all of them, but Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, and Star VS are cool. I also watch My Little Pony but while the analysis vids are interesting, I'm not in love with the show.