Communication

Subject: Communication
Author: Larfen J. Stocke, esq.
Posted on: 2018-01-28 11:26:00 UTC

So, er, considering I was one of the people with the dismaying and inappropriate behaviour, I can understand taking what I say with a grain of salt and such, but so on, so forth. Also, pardon for being so late, but I didn't want to add my own thoughts to such a raw situation I was a part of, and, well, I dunno, better to say something than nothing at all, right?

I don't think hS was necessarily entirely in the wrong, in this situation. Consider the fact that he's just sort of sat there, then someone comes to him telling him of bad things happening in the Discord - again - and that he and he alone ought to be the one who sorts this all out. It's a disconcerting situation, and I can entirely see why that would lead to him wanting to make a Board post. The very act of it being brought to him was escalating the situation into 'Major Drama' and that's not really the fault of hS. Though it was hS' ultimate choice to, obviously, make the Board post, I can entirely see the processing that led to him making said post.

I think the most questionable part comes in from whoever it was who went to hS in the first place. You have, here, a person who is concerned about the direction in which a situation is going, but doesn't say a single thing about it, and instead silently goes off and reports it to someone considered a 'higher up', as it were.
I disagree with this.

We needed - at least, I know I did - to be encountered on our behaviour, no doubt. And I appreciate that, and I'm glad we have a community that expects people to be encountered on bad behaviour. But, then, as Quince mentioned way earlier, why weren't we messaged at the time?
And I can understand, as well, the idea of bringing issues to the Board. That's a thing we do, so that we have a wider variety of opinions on a situation, don't lock certain people out of a decision that may affect them, and all. But in almost every previous occasion we had something brought to the Board, we all knew about it. It was mentioned in chat and we all agreed 'sure, bring it to the Board.' Our latest situation certainly wasn't!

Had there been better communication, this situation wouldn't have blown up nearly to the proportions it would have. There was no reason at all for Quincy and I to have not been contacted beforehand, whether through PM or just through the PPC Lounge chat itself. Were we really acting so irrationally as to have been totally unreachable at the time, leaving the only reasonable option being getting hS?

I don't like this attitude conveyed. I like to think we're all reasonable and mature enough to be able to stick a hand on each other's shoulders and say 'hey, you're out of line, cut it out.' and reply 'Oh, you're right, sorry.' and finish it off right then and there, without any needless escalation or unnecessary legality. I'm disappointed that we're not even trusted to be able to do that.
And I don't like the Orwellian sense that there is a person - or persons - sat there silently watching for anyone to mess up so they can instantly bring it in front of everyone, to hS, to the Board, without them even knowing about it at all until it suddenly pops up on the Board out of nowhere. There's obviously situations - have been situations - where a situation has to be brought up to hS, but I disagree with how that was the first solution, to the extent that Quincy had to ask if hS' Board post was about her.

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Re: the present issue by Tomash on 2018-01-23 18:23:00 UTC Reply

My thoughts:
- I'm not going to comment on Quincy's behavior at the moment. I feel a bit too emotionally tied in at the moment, if that makes sense.

- I think Larfen's comment has been blown out of proportion. That doesn't seem like an attack on anyone because of their mental health issues, and more pointing things out with an undertone of "not this again".

Now, is complaining about someone behind their back but still in public good? No (especially given various previous incidents), but I don't think that's enough to spark a Major Drama or the like.

- I should clarify to Nesh that Ix would briefly pop into the Discord to announce mission/interlude postsings then immediately leave.

- Ix's comment that "[Quincy] just said what y'all were thinking." is inaccurate, since I certainly don't feel that way, for one (and, from the logs, neither does Delta?). An apology for insinuating the entire chat hates them/doesn't care about them/... is in order, from the looks of it.

- From what I've seen over the last few days, I'm a bit worried about Ix's mental state currently. I'm not sure if anything unusual's up, but, if it is, I hope in clears up soon.

- Tomash

A couple things I need to make clear. by Neshomeh on 2018-01-24 16:41:00 UTC Reply

First, I want everyone to know that I don't think hS was wrong to raise his concern, even though I disagreed with his interpretation. It would have been better if whoever went to him had spoken to Quincy and Larfen first, and it would have been better if hS had spoken to Quincy and Larfen before bringing it to the Board. However, it is important to raise concerns when you see them so that they can be resolved, whether that's by putting them in a new light or by corrective action taken, or even both. Let's please acknowledge that he acted with the best interests of the community in mind, of his own volition, and not as an attack.

Second, it is always okay to remove yourself from a stressful or dangerous situation for your own health. It's been expressed to me that what's been said by me and others about Iximaz in this discussion might convey the opposite message, and that is not what I intended at all. No one is obliged to stay in a situation that makes them uncomfortable.

~Neshomeh

Agreed. by Hieronymus Graubart on 2018-01-25 19:57:00 UTC Reply

I’m currently not in the mood to get much involved into anything, but I looked through the relevant threads and I think that you’re absolutely right.

HG
Absolutely, on hS, there. (nm) by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2018-01-25 10:46:00 UTC Reply

But not the second part? by Neshomeh on 2018-01-25 21:00:00 UTC Reply

Just curious. 'Cuz I didn't mean people should always run away from anything challenging, either, if that's a concern? I mean that knowing when you're in over your head and need to get out (or not jump in in the first place) is good.

~Neshomeh, clarifying her clarification.

Er, phrasing by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2018-01-25 22:23:00 UTC Reply

Yes, I agreed with that part, too. I'm not sure why I specified only for hS. I think I just assumed that it was also agreed with, or such.

It was, uh, quite late at night when I typed that.

Hehe. Okay, thanks. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2018-01-25 22:24:00 UTC Reply

Yep! (nm) by Thoth on 2018-01-25 00:16:00 UTC Reply
Agreed (nm) by Tomash on 2018-01-24 20:11:00 UTC Reply

Here's what I'd like to see going forward. by Neshomeh on 2018-01-24 04:41:00 UTC Reply

(This topic being discussed in a separate thread from the amendments seems like a good idea to me, even if it was an accident.)

I think I've seen all the apologies I need to see except possibly one: whoever felt the need to fan the flames of Ix's trust issues by telling them people were discussing them in the chat. That's the one piece of this that doesn't make any sense to me at all, and I'd love an explanation.

I had a lot that I wanted to say about a lot of things, but it got late, and my brain isn't working so well. But in light of everything that's been discussed today, I do wish to suggest the following:

- Iximaz stays entirely out of the Discord. They are avoiding the place for a reason, and I suspect it's a good one. Let's make it a clean break. People can check the Board for new posts themselves, or someone else can carry the news in.

- Nobody reports on what goes on in the Discord to Iximaz. They are avoiding the place for a reason, and I suspect it's a good one. Respect that.

- Going forward, nobody in the PPC Discord discusses Iximaz at all. They are avoiding the place for a reason, and I suspect it's a good one. Respect that. If you have something to say to or about them, good or bad, do it on the Board. (And btw, do try not to discuss anyone behind their back. If you have a problem with someone, tell them to their face [following the Constitution, of course]. If you have good thoughts about someone, tell them that to their face, too!)

- PMs and emails are an entirely separate thing and are not under discussion at this time. We cannot presume to have any control over what people talk about with their friends in private. HOWEVER, if bad things are happening to you in private, do please come forward to someone. We really don't want anyone suffering in silence.

That's all I've got for now. Let me just stress that this is a proposal, not a dictation. If you find it lacking or unhelpful in any way, please say so, and we as a community will find a better way together.

~Neshomeh

Calling again for objections/suggestions. by Neshomeh on 2018-01-25 14:05:00 UTC Reply

First, an addendum: Iximaz isn't banned from the Discord, they removed themself. If they do decide they are comfortable returning at some point, I suggest that they state their intention clearly, on the Board, just as they stated their intention to leave. That way, everyone may be aware that the situation has changed and why.

For now, though, I want to make sure that we put a definitive cap on this thing and that everyone can move on comfortably. So, let's give it over the weekend for people who might not have time to jump in during the week. Then, if nobody objects or has any suggestions for improvement, my proposal with addendum, as written, will be the plan, and we may all expect it to be upheld until the situation changes.

Thanks,

~Neshomeh

All right, I'm calling this settled. by Neshomeh on 2018-01-29 16:19:00 UTC Reply

So it's all in one place, this is the plan:

- Iximaz stays entirely out of the PPC Discord.

- Nobody reports on what goes on in the PPC Discord to Iximaz.

- Nobody discusses Iximaz at all in the PPC Discord.

- If Iximaz decides they are comfortable returning to the PPC Discord at some point, they should state their intention clearly, on the Board, so that everyone may be aware that the situation has changed and why.

If you're a Discordian reading this, please help make sure everyone who needs to know it does, and that everyone sticks to it.

Thank you!

~Neshomeh

LOTS and LOTS of baaad emotions by Quincy Jones Thinks Microsoft Edge is Dumb on 2018-01-23 22:52:00 UTC Reply

I'm honestly crushed that this... whatever it is... happened. I feel like what I said, if it was out of line, is nowhere NEAR Board-level. That being said, I still don't really feel like I went out of line, especially considering what I posted after the controversial stuff. What it looks like to me (though I am admittedly rather biased, and I feel the need to specify that I AM NOT REGARDING THIS AS THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH, because apparently expressing my opinion/discomfort sics hS on me??? Maybe that was a bit unnecessary but that's how this whole ordeal has made me feel, dang it) is that y'all saw me saying something 'against' Iximaz and decided immediately that I had to be punished for it. Again, I’m not saying that’s what happened, I’m saying it’s how it make me feel. Because I, too, have feelings. I'm legitimately scared, now, that this will happen again, that I'll be thrown onto the Board without even having gotten a warning. It is not as if I always do this! And the way hS just went after me... I don't know if I feel welcome on the Board anymore, and I certainly don't feel welcome on the chat knowing that somebody was there and decided to indict me without even talking to me about it first. To that end, it pains me, but I think I'm just going to have to take another hiatus! And whoever reported me to hS... next time, JUST TELL ME. I SWEAR I AM NOT EVIL. I DO NOT WANT TO HURT ANYBODY. SURE, I PROBABLY OVERREACTED??? BUT I WOULD HAVE LISTENED IF YOU WOULD HAVE JUST COME TO ME. All you've accomplished by doing this instead is upset *everybody* over an issue that could've been resolved through a quick PM. Unless your intent is to harm me?? In which case, congratulations, you've succeeded!

I just wanted to come back and be with my friends. And then... THIS. Maybe it's my fault? I don't know, I don't really *feel* like I've done anything egregious. Maybe I'm paranoid. I told myself I've been overreacting, but as the day goes on, I just get more and more sad. But... I can't believe this happened. I don’t even feel like I did anything??? I don't know! I'm scared this will happen again and I don't know if I could handle it. I hate this, all of it. It’s making me wish I never joined the PPC. I mean, can I not also be upset/hurt/angry over what happened, or is that a premium right reserved for those whose names are Iximaz??? Please, somebody. I just want to know why something of this magnitude happened over something so small.

I'm sorry. by Huinesoron on 2018-01-23 23:42:00 UTC Reply

I'm sorry for misinterpreting the chat log so badly that not only does no-one else see it, but no-one else can even imagine hoe I reached the conclusions I did. That is a huge failure on my part.

Sorry.

hS

I can sort of see where you got your interpretations by Tomash on 2018-01-24 00:09:00 UTC Reply

From where I'm standing, they look like they assume a lot of negative intent on Quincy and Larf's parts. That's ... understandable, I suppose, assuming someone had poked you with (I'm probably exaggerating this, as I have no idea what happened before you asked me for context and logs) "People are being terrible and mean on the Discord, here's a screenshot".

That is, your interpretations were one of the valid ways to read the logs (they weren't completely out of nowhere) but that they were really improbable etc. .

I think the lesson here is that this sort of thing is one reason we have an "don't assume negative intent" clause in the Constitution.

- Tomash

Ehhhh... by Thoth on 2018-01-23 19:53:00 UTC Reply

>An apology for insinuating the entire chat hates them/doesn't care about them/... is in order, from the looks of it.

Thing is, from the logs, it looks like Quince went to great lengths to not insinuate that. An apology still might be in order, but I think that's worth noting.

I was referring to Ix's comment by Tomash on 2018-01-23 19:56:00 UTC Reply

about the chat as a whole, and was saying they (Ix) might need to apologize.

- Tomash

Oh. That's worth considering. (nm) by Thoth on 2018-01-23 20:43:00 UTC Reply

'Major Drama' (an apology) by Huinesoron on 2018-01-23 19:26:00 UTC Reply

It was never my intent to suggest that Major Drama was happening. I wanted to highlight some relatively low-level behaviour that I found dismaying and not appropriate, to try and encourage the people involved to stop before it could become Major Drama.

I apologise for implying that Major Drama had occured. It was never my intent. I would appreciate someone laying out precisely how I implied that, so I can learn from it.

hS

Communication by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2018-01-28 11:26:00 UTC Reply

So, er, considering I was one of the people with the dismaying and inappropriate behaviour, I can understand taking what I say with a grain of salt and such, but so on, so forth. Also, pardon for being so late, but I didn't want to add my own thoughts to such a raw situation I was a part of, and, well, I dunno, better to say something than nothing at all, right?

I don't think hS was necessarily entirely in the wrong, in this situation. Consider the fact that he's just sort of sat there, then someone comes to him telling him of bad things happening in the Discord - again - and that he and he alone ought to be the one who sorts this all out. It's a disconcerting situation, and I can entirely see why that would lead to him wanting to make a Board post. The very act of it being brought to him was escalating the situation into 'Major Drama' and that's not really the fault of hS. Though it was hS' ultimate choice to, obviously, make the Board post, I can entirely see the processing that led to him making said post.

I think the most questionable part comes in from whoever it was who went to hS in the first place. You have, here, a person who is concerned about the direction in which a situation is going, but doesn't say a single thing about it, and instead silently goes off and reports it to someone considered a 'higher up', as it were.
I disagree with this.

We needed - at least, I know I did - to be encountered on our behaviour, no doubt. And I appreciate that, and I'm glad we have a community that expects people to be encountered on bad behaviour. But, then, as Quince mentioned way earlier, why weren't we messaged at the time?
And I can understand, as well, the idea of bringing issues to the Board. That's a thing we do, so that we have a wider variety of opinions on a situation, don't lock certain people out of a decision that may affect them, and all. But in almost every previous occasion we had something brought to the Board, we all knew about it. It was mentioned in chat and we all agreed 'sure, bring it to the Board.' Our latest situation certainly wasn't!

Had there been better communication, this situation wouldn't have blown up nearly to the proportions it would have. There was no reason at all for Quincy and I to have not been contacted beforehand, whether through PM or just through the PPC Lounge chat itself. Were we really acting so irrationally as to have been totally unreachable at the time, leaving the only reasonable option being getting hS?

I don't like this attitude conveyed. I like to think we're all reasonable and mature enough to be able to stick a hand on each other's shoulders and say 'hey, you're out of line, cut it out.' and reply 'Oh, you're right, sorry.' and finish it off right then and there, without any needless escalation or unnecessary legality. I'm disappointed that we're not even trusted to be able to do that.
And I don't like the Orwellian sense that there is a person - or persons - sat there silently watching for anyone to mess up so they can instantly bring it in front of everyone, to hS, to the Board, without them even knowing about it at all until it suddenly pops up on the Board out of nowhere. There's obviously situations - have been situations - where a situation has to be brought up to hS, but I disagree with how that was the first solution, to the extent that Quincy had to ask if hS' Board post was about her.

Relevant facts: by Huinesoron on 2018-01-28 12:15:00 UTC Reply

-The original extract (two posts) was brought to me by Iximaz, who did of course also address it directly.

-I have no knowledge of who gave the extract to Iximaz.

-I obtained the full transcript from a third party who I knew could provide it.

-There doesn't seem to be much difference between 'tell the person who might be offended' and 'invoke the Wrath of hS', except that I am not actually an attack-dog who can be aimed at whoever people please, and so telling me is probably less likely to set things off.

hS

That makes more sense. by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2018-01-28 13:18:00 UTC Reply

Cheers for clearing that up. I still, iunno, personally find it a bit cheesy that there was no PMing or anything like that but, ah, well, fair enough, ey? I can understand PMing the person in question of a conversation directly a whole lot more than sort of, trying to get stuff on the Board.

Sorry for somehow implying you were an 'attack-dog'. I'm not trying to start anything and I'm not trying to go after anyone but, hey, whatever. Pardon.

I think what happened there by Tomash on 2018-01-23 19:59:00 UTC Reply

is that you brought this up using words like "repeatedly" (which could've been read as "multiple incidents" and not "a few different messages") along with a general notion that the Discord needs to watch out for a culture of rug-sweeping (which is not a completely unfounded concern, IMO) and constitutional amendments.

Putting a minor behavioral concern in the same post as a bunch of Important Issues gives off the feeling of it being an Important Issue, I suspect.

- Tomash

That was meant to go under the below thread (nm) by Tomash on 2018-01-23 18:24:00 UTC Reply