I've seen your reply, but

Subject: I've seen your reply, but
Author: Kaitlyn
Posted on: 2019-03-21 21:15:00 UTC

I am respectfully going to reply anyway, because I think this is an important conversation.

It wouldn't be for me to comment on whether you're racist; my hunch, and certainly my hope, is that you aren't, but your thoughts belong to you. My concern is that your actions normalise and trivialise a narrative which makes things easier for people who are racist. Your intentions don't have to be bad for your actions to cause harm.

I understand the distinction you've drawn between edgelords and racists. I agree there is a line between--also aware that it's a easy step across. I wouldn't at all like to see you leave the PPC; my preferred option is that you stay, really think about the feedback you've had about this issue, and take advantage of an environment that will support you if you want to step away from the edginess.

If I didn't think it was important and you were worth the investment of time, I certainly wouldn't have bothered--my lurking skills are finely honed over the last 15 years, and it takes a lot to stir me from my slumber. Truly written in a spirit of kindness.

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Paging Huinesoron (more will be paged later) by twistedwindowpane, on behalf of Willis on 2019-03-20 14:49:00 UTC Reply

Willis... has a grievance that, like all his grievances, he doesn't want to air to anyone except me. So I decided to air it myself, as it's left him with a bad taste in his mouth about the PPC in general, or at least "the influential Boarders" (aka oldbies), and therefore it really needs to be put out into the open.

This concerns the "Elves Aren't Supposed To Be Buff" spinoff. Willis mentioned to me that he found it a bit creepy that you were writing a one-shot of "a stand-in for [you] intimidating a stand-in for me." He said he also felt personally attacked, at least initially. And while he told me that he recognized that you were just messing with him and that he was over it, he is most certainly not over it.

I get what was going on. From your perspective, you were messing with him in a friendly way because of the running joke that you'll do anything to defend elves. I'd just like an apology so that he knows you respect him. Show him the Huinesoron I knew when I recruited him. Okay?

Thank you!
-Twistey

Okay: sorry. by Huinesoron on 2019-03-20 18:18:00 UTC Reply

My intention was to encapsulate a factcheck-of-sorts in a story, and to find a way to include Willis in a 'shipfic' without shipping him with anyone other than you (it being the Shipfest and all). However, I can see that I failed spectacularly at conveying that, and can understand how you (both) saw it differently. So: sorry.

If it helps to settle Willis' mind, I'll note that the only reason I wrote him being a bit intimidated is that, well, 7-foot strangers standing over you is intimidating, and not acknowledging that would be planting a huge elephant in the room. I wrote him as being as unintimidating as he could (like I said before, he's socially inept), but clearly failed in my goal, so again: sorry.

I hope this public callout-and-apology will help set Willis' mind at ease.

hS

Thank you by Willis64 on 2019-03-21 02:39:00 UTC Reply

It's not really necessary though. I overreacted to your joke and was going to just let it slide, but Twistey thought it would be good to voice my concerns. I'm just not in a very good place emotionally currently, so I'm exaggerating everything that could possibly be seen as bad, which is why it made me feel bad. Just to clarify though, it wasn't that my stand-in was being intimidated, it was that I was portrayed as being a weak and socially incompetent child.

In light of this... by Neshomeh on 2019-03-21 14:14:00 UTC Reply

I'm sorry. Your concerns were misrepresented, and I reacted to a flawed understanding of your feelings.

However, I'm more sorry you opted into the Shipfest at all to begin with. It's clear that you have trouble separating yourself from fictional (mis)representations of yourself. That's a skill we do expect people to learn, particularly in the context of fanfiction, which often includes fictional representations of the author—but it takes practice. If you're not there yet, and if you weren't in a great place emotionally on top of it, a game that specifically involves a (mis)representation of you using your own screenname rather than a distinct character's name was no place for you.

I don't know this happened, but given your obvious reluctance and reservations about the whole thing, let me say this: if—that's if—Twistey prodded you into it at all, that was wrong of her, and you guys will have to work that out between yourselves.

If not, good. Please learn from this experience and use it to make wiser decisions for yourself in the future.

~Neshomeh

I loved the Shipfest and wanted him to have fun (nm) by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-21 19:11:00 UTC Reply
Please don't keep bringing this up, guys by Willis64 on 2019-03-21 15:03:00 UTC Reply

The thing is resolved. It didn't even really need to be resolved. I know, and acknowledged, that it was just a joke that I overreacted to. End of story. I opted in with those rather tight restrictions because I didn't know what was going to happen, but I thought it might be fun to participate in a limited way. But the fact that I did doesn't make me a bad person. I was just attempting to have a bit of fun like everyone else. Now can we drop his issue? It's resolved and doesn't need further discussion.

Righto. o7 by S.M.F. on 2019-03-22 01:42:00 UTC Reply

And while I'm not on the PPC Discord or anything, I do have one - you can click on my email and we can chat about low-level stuff, like cats. Or I can screen-share a film on Discord or something.

A feature of the Shipfest . . . by Kaitlyn on 2019-03-21 09:13:00 UTC Reply

. . . is that people are written wildly out of character. At the risk of disillusioning people, I've never gone anywhere near a corset, and have no plans to change that. But that hasn't stopped people creating the epic story of Iximaz and Me, corset!BFFs (I don't even remember how that started anymore. It's just a thing now).

You don't have to participate in the Shipfest if it makes you uncomfortable--and I would surmise, from the repeated and complex limitations on your participation, that it very well might. It's not at all obligatory and nobody will think less of you if you opt out.

I will note, however, that hS was not "messing with" you, as alleged in Twistey's original post. It wasn't some sort of juvenile hazing ritual; hS isn't that way inclined. It was just an OOC Shipfest story, like so many others, with literally zero personal ill-will. Hopefully that makes things a bit clearer.

--Kaitlyn

Furthering that: by S.M.F. on 2019-03-21 12:32:00 UTC Reply

This Shipfest (from what I've observed of it - and I've been here a while, so I HAVE quite a bit to draw observations from) is not an excuse for us to write people as we think they really are, either.

So it's not supposed to be that, I promise. We are all allowed to have 'no's on how our fictional selves are represented here, too: for example, I was able to opt out as a Boarder while still letting a defined-fictional version of myself be available - something like that might work for you?

Clarification, please? by Neshomeh on 2019-03-20 15:35:00 UTC Reply

I just want to make sure that everyone understands that neither Agent nor Boarder hS was actually doing anything to deliberately intimidate anyone else. The point of the ficlet was simply that Willis had his facts about elves misplaced, so an elf agent came along to set him straight. It wasn't about messing with anyone, it was about conveying information in a more entertaining way than simply going "well, actually" and spelling it out. It's the PPC; "entertaining" is generally how we try to do things.

If y'all still want an apology for hS accidentally freaking Willis out while actively trying not to, that's fair, but let's be clear about what actually happened. I'm sick to death of people misreading something hS did and assuming the worst of him, and I'm not going to stand for it.

I expect I'm next on the list for calling out. If so, could we please get it over with? I have to go to work in two hours.

~Neshomeh

This is a bit of a hurtful statement by Willis64 on 2019-03-21 03:10:00 UTC Reply

The way that you phrased this gives the impression that you think that my emotions and opinions are invalid and wrong in this situation. I am fully aware that it was made for entertainment purposes only, and I don't/didn't want an apology about anything, but I couldn't help feeling when I initially read the story that it was a veiled way to put me down, and that I had been portrayed in a bad way in the story. I know that wasn't the intention, but it still made me feel that way, and the fact that it was meant to be funny doesn't invalidate my feelings about it. I don't have enough experience with the Board or hS to know what either are really like, so I didn't have any way to accurately interpret the situation. So I'm sorry that this happened, but it's not anybody's fault.
You are in fact next on the list. by twistedwindowpane, on behalf of herself on 2019-03-20 19:32:00 UTC Reply

However, I'd like a few things to be cleared up before I get started:

- Neither I nor Willis misinterpreted what hS did. We got that it was a joke. That does not change how it felt. And while Willis sort of assumed the worst from hS, I didn't. That's why I put this out in the open, because I believed it would help, whereas he thought that he'd just be mass-targeted in reply. By all the Boarders. I was not kidding about the bad taste in his mouth.

- Speaking of assuming, very bold of you to predict what I am going to do next! What if your prediction had not been correct? You would be the one assuming worse!

Now that we have that out of the way, first things first.

When I am emotionally vulnerable after having done something pretty wrong, and have made myself even more vulnerable by apologizing for my actions instead of running and hiding, I do not appreciate my apology being outright dismissed for being less than perfect. It makes me feel like I am not forgiven for my actions and like I have lost others' trust. Which is a terrible feeling.

When I am concerned, confused, or bothered by something and I voice my feelings, I do not appreciate having them dismissed as me needing to lighten up or stop questioning things. Let me remind you that "questioning things" is also how we try to do things, as you yourself said in response to my comment about the Star Wars prequels. Being dismissed makes me feel like I and my opinions and feelings don't matter. Which is also a terrible feeling.

And I definitely don't appreciate my age being guessed incorrectly. I'll have you know that when I was thirteen, I was worse. What you basically did was personally attack me and call me immature. Perhaps you should make fewer bold assumptions about your opponents in general, and let them have their say first.

I get that I need to change. I really do, especially if I ever want to visit Germany. But it will take time. I cannot just "drop it". And that is why I will be merciful to you, because I know you cannot simply "drop" a behavior either. If you would like to, you and I may in fact join together as compatriots in breaking bad habits - a tried-and-true method.

I would like an apology and I would like evidence that you understand what I am saying and where I am coming from. And then I would like you to work towards being more compassionate and, dare I say, peaceful. Don't take it personally, no matter how attacked this no doubt makes you feel. I see where you're coming from with these things and I believe in your ability to get better.

Thanks,
-Twistey

Question! (Might be a dumb one) by Ozzielot on 2019-03-21 14:57:00 UTC Reply

You say you can't just "drop" it, but what do you mean?

Do you mean that

a) You're itching to post more of it?

b) You can't stop thinking about it?

"It might be a dumb question" is what I mean (nm) by Anonymous on 2019-03-21 15:15:00 UTC Reply

You are not my opponent. This is not a game. by Neshomeh on 2019-03-21 02:52:00 UTC Reply

Neither is it a debate, so I won't argue with your various points of accusation.

Here's what I will do:

1. I will apologize for being condescending. I was, and I should have expressed myself better. I'm sorry.

2. I will take you out of the category "child" in my head and think of you instead as "teen or young adult."

3. I'll now take off the kid gloves and tell you in frank language what that means.

That means my patience for you treating Nazis, Hitler, the Holocaust, and other related concepts as fun playthings ends as of this post. I am not comfortable with it, and I don't want to see it in PPC spaces anymore.

It means I expect you to understand that trivializing things that have hurt and are hurting people to this day is not okay, and that no one here is obliged to tolerate it—not when Neo-Nazi and other white supremacist terrorism is a global problem and people are being killed in its name. Your feelings are not more important than those of the people being persecuted in the name of the discriminatory ideals espoused by the Nazi party and its leaders, and I will not apologize for saying so.

It means I expect you to exercise the ability of a teen or young adult to moderate your actions, and to stop bringing those things up in any way, shape, or form. That includes Wolfenstein and other media that features Hitler, Nazis, Holocaust, etc. You will keep your fascination with those things strictly to yourself from now on.

It means that if you don't stop, I will consider it a violation of Article 3 of the Constitution, and I will call upon the Board to make a decision about how to handle it.

I hope I have been sufficiently clear.

~Neshomeh

I accept your apology. Plans for the future: by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-21 19:55:00 UTC Reply

We’re all still learning here. Some of us more than others. *gestures exaggeratedly at self*

I think that to better preserve your peace of mind, I may end up doing one of the following things, ranked from least to most drastic and least to most effective:
- Using my upcoming spring break as an excuse to get away and detox both me and all of you. (Well, that’s going to happen no matter what, but I could also do either of the following...)
- Not migrating to our new discussion site when we get one, and just hanging around here until yourwebapps shuts down. At that point, you can consider me a purely historical entity of the PPC.
- Using my upcoming break as an excuse to become a purely historical entity of the PPC. I’m not really considering this one too seriously.

I’m also likely going to start my own sporking group on Newgrounds for Willis to migrate to, as he’s probably a little too emotionally vulnerable to stay here. This group will also house all the friends that I would recruit except they have an even worse sense of offensiveness than me. (Scary!) And possibly some of the stuff that I can’t post here, since Newgrounds’ target market is in fact quasi-insensitive youth such as me (their logo is a tank, for crying out loud.) So if it comes into existence and if I ever plug it with a big content warning on it, don’t think of me as a traitor or trying to avoid making personal change, because that’s just where I’ll be going to dump my garbage.

-Twistey
P.S. On an even lighter note: Since a lot of people had fun with the military tactics aspect of Ship War, I had the best idea for how to bring back a “safer” version that kinda combines with the Badfic Game. Tell me how you like this: A group of hilariously petty Suethors leading nations of Mary Sues against each other. :D I give you full permission to use it if I happen to be gone by next year.
Standing behind this. by Kaitlyn on 2019-03-21 09:21:00 UTC Reply

Nazism is not an intellectually interesting historical trivium, nor is it a game. It killed millions of people within living memory, and the philosophy persists and continues to kill people today. It will continue to kill until people refuse to allow it on their platforms, so Neshomeh is absolutely right to make this stand.

It has no place in the PPC.

You can indeed "just drop it", and I suggest that you do--not to make you more comfortable if you ever visit Germany, but because it is murderous.

I am sorry for everything and I have said so. But to clarify by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-21 19:20:00 UTC Reply

Are you trying to call me racist? I do not support any actual racism. There is a difference between being an edgelord (someone who obsesses with dark/taboo things just because of the shock value, or thinks they’re being cool) and being a racist (someone who genuinely believes that their race is superior to others). I am a specimen of the former, but I understand what you’re saying and will attempt to keep my edge out of this.

-Twistey

I've seen your reply, but by Kaitlyn on 2019-03-21 21:15:00 UTC Reply

I am respectfully going to reply anyway, because I think this is an important conversation.

It wouldn't be for me to comment on whether you're racist; my hunch, and certainly my hope, is that you aren't, but your thoughts belong to you. My concern is that your actions normalise and trivialise a narrative which makes things easier for people who are racist. Your intentions don't have to be bad for your actions to cause harm.

I understand the distinction you've drawn between edgelords and racists. I agree there is a line between--also aware that it's a easy step across. I wouldn't at all like to see you leave the PPC; my preferred option is that you stay, really think about the feedback you've had about this issue, and take advantage of an environment that will support you if you want to step away from the edginess.

If I didn't think it was important and you were worth the investment of time, I certainly wouldn't have bothered--my lurking skills are finely honed over the last 15 years, and it takes a lot to stir me from my slumber. Truly written in a spirit of kindness.

Thank you for this calm and caring response. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2019-03-21 22:55:00 UTC Reply

Ignore that, I can see clearly now (nm) by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-21 20:18:00 UTC Reply

I will not ignore that. by Neshomeh on 2019-03-21 21:09:00 UTC Reply

Did you really mean to state that you still think it's "cool" to play with the "shock value" of an ideology that murders people for their skin color, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, and more?

And above, did you really mean to tell us that you still intend to create offensive garbage on Newgrounds, with people you describe as less sensitive than you, who you nonetheless choose to be friends with?

Think very carefully about how your response may reflect on the sincerity of your apologies and your intent to change.

~Neshomeh

Oh, and one more thing... by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-20 19:49:00 UTC Reply

Did I hear a "let's get this over with" come out of your mouth? About an apology? After you were done lecturing me about how I was trying to get an apology over with so that I could feel better?

I get a sense from this that you know the right thing to do, you just don't always live by your own rules. Hey, that's better than if you didn't know the right thing.

-Twistey

Let me make this clear. by Iximaz on 2019-03-20 21:14:00 UTC Reply

It’s not because you asked. It’s because of how you asked. You didn’t really so much ask as demand, in a way that came across very strongly as “I know hS didn’t mean to, but it’s still his fault and you’d better make it right or else, and then went on to insinuate you’d be doing a mass callout of other people with a similarly entitled demand for apology.

You’d hardly be the first to do something similar, and that’s why Nesh—and myself—are fed up.

Asking for an apology is fine. Being snide about it is not.

That is not at all how I intended to come across. by twistedwindowpane on 2019-03-21 19:59:00 UTC Reply

The reason why I wanted to call out these people is so that, when they apologized, I could prove to Willis that you are all actually decent people and didn’t intend to hurt him. I’m kinda still learning how to gracefully advocate for myself and others, so the wording was probably screwed up and sent some serious mixed messages. I apologize for any feelings of personal attck this caused.

-Twistey

Nesh, please. by Four Moons Watching on 2019-03-20 17:16:00 UTC Reply

Intentions aside, hS did something that ended up making Willis uncomfortable. That's the simple facts. Whether this was intentional or not is a question for later - Willis is well within his rights to feel he's owed an apology.