The TRUE Royal Line

Subject: The TRUE Royal Line
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2019-11-29 10:23:27 UTC

As we have learnt, the Usurper Queen Caroline-Christine is a false pretender to the Truly Equal Throne. The true line descends not from King Herman's youngest daughter Anna, but from his second child, Herman. Prince Herman's daughter Margaret inherited the throne not from her father, but from her cousin King Ulrich II. At last, the true tale of our ruling house(s) can be told:

The House of Normandy

The royal line was established by William the Conqueror in 1066. On the principle that a new Royal House is begun every time the throne passes in any direction other than straight down the family tree, the first line ends with his eldest son, who died childless.

1. William I the Conqueror (b. 1028, r. 1066-1087)
2. Robert Curthose (b. 1051, r. 1087-1106) - Son

The House of England

For the last time, the true royal house held their inheritance in Henry II. They would never reclaim it. King Thomas died young and childless, passing the throne to his uncle.

3. Henry I Beauclerc (b. 1068, r. 1106-1135) - Son of William I (#2)
4. Matilda I the Empress (b. 1102, r. 1135-1167) - Daughter
5. Henry II Curtmantle (b. 1133, r. 1167-1189) - Son
6. Matilda II Richenza (b. 1172, r. 1189-1209) - Granddaughter
7. Thomas (b. 1193, r. 1209-1217) - Son

The House of Brunswick

The royal line moved firmly into Germany, with Henry III being Count Palatine of the Rhine. When Frederick I died young and childless, the crown passed to his sister Agnes.

8. Henry III the Elder (b. 1173, r. 1217-1227) - Brother of Matilda II (#6)
9. Irmingard (b. 1200, r. 1227-1260) - Daughter
10. Frederick I (b. 1249, r. 1260-1268) - Grandson

The House of Carinthia

The line of Carinthia rose to great heights, only to founder at the last: Queen Hedwig was heir to the thrones of Poland and Lithuania, but was cruelly poisoned by her stepmother.

11. Agnes (b. 1250, r. 1268-1295) - Sister of Frederick I (#10)
12. Catherine I (b. 12??, r. 1295-1316) - Daughter
13. Frederick II (b. 1300, r. 1316-1359) - Son
14. Ulric I (b. 1331, r. 1359-1368) - Son
15. William II (b. 1361, r. 1368-1392) - Son
16. Anna (b. 1381, r. 1392-1416) - Daughter
17. Hedwig Jabiellon (b. 1408, r. 1416-1431) - Daughter

The House of Celje

The House of Celje was not a happy one: two of the three kings which make it up died a few years into their reign. It is from King Herman that the Usurper Queen's claim comes.

18. Herman I (b. ca. 1360, r. 1431-1435) - Grandson of Frederick II (#13)
19. Frederick III (b. 1379, r. 1435-1454) - Son
20. Ulric II (b. 1406, r. 1454-1456) - Son

The House of Montfort-Pfannberg-Bregenz

Through her father Prince Herman, Queen Margaret can assert her superior claim to Barbara and her heirs. From this point, her line becomes increasingly hard to trace. King Hugh's date of birth is entirely unknown.

21. Margaret (b. 1411, r. 1456-1480) - Granddaughter of Herman I (#18)
22. Herman II (b. 1430s, r.1480-1482) - Son
23. Hugh (b. 14??, r. 1482-1550) - Son

The House of Montfort

Queen Lucy, despite her short reign, is a keystone of the dynasty: of the six monarchs traditionally listed after her, only one does not look directly to her to support his claim.

24. Jacob (b.15??, r. 1550-1573) - Grandson of Herman II (#22)
25. Catherine II (b. 1553, r. 1573-1631) - Daughter
26. Lucy (b. 1582, r. 1631-1633) - Daughter
27. Adam (b. 1604, r. 1633-1657) - Son

The House of Slavata

The last undisputed section of the royal line. King Francis' sons Francis and John predeceased him, breaking the line once again.

28. Mary I (b. 16??, r. 1657-1685) - Granddaughter of Lucy I (#26)
29. Francis (b.1679, r. 1685-1761) - Son

Disputed - The House of Liechtenstein-Castelcorn

There is no information regarding the two daughters of Mary I, other than their names. No titles passed to them following the death of their brother. They may have died in childhood; they may have died without issue; or they may have married into obscurity. They are presented here as possible claimants, but the main line disregards them.

30. == Mary II Barbara - Daughter of Mary I (#28)
30. == Mary II Francisca - Daughter of Mary I (#28)

The House of Götzen

Despite the disputed Liechtenstein claims, the crown still passed to a Queen Mary II - this one many generations removed from Queen Lucy. The line of inheritence runs Lucy - Joachim - Ferdinand - Margaret - John - Mary II, but the longevity of Mary I and Francis means that Mary II Maximiliana was the claimant at the time. As for the end of the line, it seems that Queen Antonia died in childbirth, leaving her infant son Earnest to rule until his death.

30. == Mary II Maximiliana (b. 1709, r. 1761-1771) - Great-Great-Great-Granddaughter of Lucy I (#26)
31. Mary III Maximiliana (b. 1741, r. 1771-1814) - Daughter
32. Joseph (b. 1767, r. 1814-1818) - Son
33. Rose (b. 1792, r. 1818-1844) - Daughter
34. Antonia (b. 1821, r.1844-1847) - Daughter
35. Earnest (b. 1847, r. 1847-1875) - Son

The House of Dietrichstein-Proskau-Leslie

The last and current line of the royal family. Charles II reigned from childhood, his rule spanning most of the 20th century. Queen Mary IV has held the throne for many years how; as far as can be determined, her heir is her brother Charles, a Czech politician.

36. Sophie (b. 1823, r. 1875-1909) - Granddaughter of Rose I (#33)
37. Charles I (b. 1886, r. 1909-1914) - Grandson
38. Charles II (b. 1911, r. 1914-1986)
39. Mary IV Eleanor (b. 1936, r. 1986-?)

So... all hail Queen Mary? I guess?

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Bizarre history waffle: the True Ruler(s) of Britain by Huinesoron on 2019-11-28 13:12:14 UTC Reply

As Tolkien once told us, anyone whose family ever had a claim to a throne will remember it for literally thousands of years. Therefore, given that I live in a country with multiple disowned royal lines, I thought it might be interesting to take a look at some of the alternate claims that might spring up.

Line of Alfred the Great

Alfred the Great (he of the burnt cakes) is generally taken to be the first King of England. His grandson Aethelstan was the first to claim that title, but who's heard of Aethelstan? Nobody, so we'll say Alfred. It all works out the same anyway.

The line down from Alfred was broken a couple of times by the Vikings, but managed to make it through nearly to the Norman Conquest in 1066. Harold Godwinson (he of the arrow in the eye) was not the closest heir to Edward the Confessor - that honour went to Edward the Exile, the Confessor's nephew.

Obviously, the Conquest broke the chain of Saxon kings - but it's possible to trace their line quite a lot further. Edward the Exile's son died without children, but his daughter Margaret married... King Malcolm of Scotland! The Saxon line descends in lockstep with the Scottish royal line from this point, until at last it returns to England in the person of James VI & I (who nearly got blown up by Guy Fawkes). So that's nice. ^_^

Line of William the Conqueror

You might expect that, in all the various wars during the Middle Ages, the 'proper' line of inheritance from William the Conqueror would have been broken, and you'd be right - but it always managed to come back together. Partly that comes from disputed claimants doing away with the rightful heirs (looking at you, Prince John), but the biggest break was the Wars of the Roses, which sprang out of a dodgy assumption of the throne by Henry IV. Henry was a son of Edward III's third son, John of Gaunt, and took the throne from Richard II, son of Edward's eldest - but Edward's second son, Lionel, had an heir of his own.

That heir was Philippa, Countess of Ulster, and after a few generations her heir returned to the throne as Edward IV. His heir was Edward V, one of the Princes in the Tower, who died as a child, leaving his next heir as Elizabeth of York. The selfsame Elizabeth brought an end to the War of the Roses by marrying Henry Tudor (who had a dodgy claim through John of Gaunt, but mostly through defeating Richard III), and the rightful queen Elizabeth became mother to Henry VIII.

(And, a few generations later and by a different branch, the great-great-grandmother of James VI & I again. It's nice when things come together.)

Line of James VI & I

This is the one point where the English royal line gets well and truly broken: James' grandson, James II, was deposed by his son-in-law, William of Orange. The two sides squabbled for a bit (see: the Jacobite Risings), but hilariously enough, after a couple of generations every single branch of James II's line died out. That meant the claim got pushed back up the tree.

It went initially to the children of Charles I, James II's father. Ironically enough, his grandchildren included William of Orange, so he was sort of retroactively an heir to the throne. Other than that, his line almost died out. That would have bumped the succession back another generation, up to Elizabeth Stuart, daughter of James VI & I, whose grandson became King George I... but Charles' youngest daughter, Henrietta, had children, and one of those - just one - managed to have children of her own.

One of those children was Charles Emmanuel III, King of Sardinia, and it is through him that the 'rightful' line of both Alfred and William continues (assuming one doesn't accept the law that excludes Catholics from the succession, which was the principle on which Sophia, Electress of Hanover - mother of George I - was chosen as the foundation of the current line). The current heir would be Franz, Duke of Bavaria; oddly enough, the second in line to the throne after his son is Sophie, Princess of Liechtenstein. Liechtensteeeeeeein! [Shakes fist]

Line of Sophia of Hanover

... is a very boring line, because it's the one we've still got. But, recently the laws in Britain were changed to allow elder daughters to sit higher in the line of succession than their brothers. What would have happened if that rule had been put in place when Sophia was created heir presumptive to the crown of Britain?

George I was Sophia's eldest child, and George II his. George II's eldest was Frederick, who predeceased him leaving a son, George III - but George was not Frederick's eldest child. That honour, and our hypothetical crown, goes to Princess Augusta, Duchess of Brunswick.

Her third child wound up marrying our George IV, but forget her - she had an elder daughter, another Duchess Augusta. Her son was Prince William of Württemberg; his eldest Marie had no children, but his second daughter, Princess Sophie of Württemberg, married King William III of the Netherlands!

... and then all three of their children died before William did. At that point the Netherlands actually adopted the cognatic primogeniture we're discussing here, but passed the throne to the daughter of William's second wife. We need instead to go back up to William of Württemberg, whose third child was another daughter, Princess Katherine. She was the mother of King William II of Württemberg; his eldest was Princess Pauline, who a) was West German director of the Red Cross for many years, and b) was indicted after WWII for concealing Nazis. So, y'know, not great.

Her son Hermann died in 1941, a couple of decaded before her, but left behind a son Friedrich Wilhelm. He died in 2000, leaving behind four children; the current hypothetical King of England by this line is Alexander of Wied, whose heir presumptive is his brother Carl's son Maximilian.

Cognatic primogeniture line of WIlliam the Conqueror

This line would initially follow the actual line down to Henry II, son of the Empress Matilda, but then jumps off to Matilda, Duchess of Saxony. Her eldest child's line appears to die out, following which we bump through various German royalty until we hit Agnes of Baden. Her daughter and heir married Ulrich II of Sanneck, and it seems they only had one child: Frederick, first count of Celje.

From there we make a big jump sideways: Frederick's great-granddaughter Anna married King Władysław II of Poland! Her daughter was named Hedwig, who sadly died without children. Back up we go... all the way to Frederick, to now follow his second son, Hermann I. We can follow his line down to Ulrich II of Celje, whose surviving child Elizabeth married Matthias Corvinus of Hungary. Uuuuunfortunately it doesn't look like she had any kids either... back up we go.

Okay: Hermann I's son Hermann had several children. Frederick's line led to Elizabeth. Anna comes next, marrying the Palatine of Hungary. I have to leave Wikipedia to find her children; the eldest appears to be Ladislaus Garai of Hungary. His eldest daughter Ana was engaged to the same Matthias Corvinus we've already met, but died young. Other than her, there don't seem to be any records of what happened to his children, and so the line drops into obscurity there, with Ladislaus' death in 1459.

Here follows the Line of the Usurper Queen

EDIT: A little further... this source claimed Ladislaus/László had four children, and that the fourth, Miklós, had two children: Jozsef and Ilona. The Hungarian wiki suggests that his line likely died out, which sends us back up again... none of the rest of Anna's children seem to have produced lasting lineages, so we're back up to Hermann II. His last child that we need to investigate is Barbara of Cilli, Holy Roman Empress and Queen of Hungary.

Her daughter was Elizabeth of Luxembourg, whose shenanigans after her husband died actually led to László being deposed, just in case you were wondering how close all these people were. Her daughter Anne had her own daughter, Margaret of Thuringia, who married the Elector of Brandenburg and ultimately gave rise to the German Emperors. Y'know, provided you only allow sons to inherit. Which we're not.

We can follow the Electors of Brandenburg down a few generations, to George William in 1640. His eldest was a daughter, and would be succeeded by her own daughter, Louise Elisabeth of Courland. She married the Landgrave of Hesse-Homburg; their first two children didn't produce lasting lines, and the next five died without issue, but their eighth(!) married the prince of Nassau-Siegen. His eldest daughter's line died out, but his male heir Frederick William had five daughters with a lady named Polyxena.

The eldest of those daughters married Charles Paul Ernest, and they had at least six children. Their second son inherited his father's titles, and their youngest daughter was a writer, but for now, Sophie Charlotte's death in 1759 is as far as I can trace the line of William the Conqueror. o.O

EDIT2: And we're back... Charles & Sophie's first child was named Anna Polixena and died in 1799, apparently childless. She would be succeeded by her sister Eleanore Augusta Amalie, who died 1827, leaving behind her son Ernst Casimir. His eldest was Adelheid, who died childless, leaving Ernst Casimir II to take the throne. Bruno was hie heir, and on his death in 1906 was followed by Princess Hedwig. She married Prince Botho of Stolberg-Rossla, and had Princess Elisabeth, who married the Duke of Mecklenburg, and then... another Duke of Mecklenburg.

She died in 1969, apparently childless. Her brother Cristoph died in 1949, but left behind three children - the oldest of whom, Caroline Christine Hedwig Marie Hermine Luise Friederike Stolberg-Roßla, apears to be still alive! All hail Her Majesty, Queen Caroline-Christine of the United Kingdom!

Of course, she appears to be 107, so perhaps we should transfer our alliegance to her daughter Ruth. Who's eleven years older than Prince Charles... I'm sure it'll be fine. ^_^;

And that, at last, is the end of the line.

INTERSTITIAL EDIT 3: Oh no! Herman 2's second son had kids! All of the below are (probably) vile pretenders! Renounce your allegiance to the Usurper Queen Caroline-Christine; our true monarch waits to be discovered!

The Saxon Line in tree form (with an OOPS) by Huinesoron on 2019-12-03 14:45:23 UTC Edited Reply

Here is the complete line of descent from Alfred the Great down to the present day, by male-preference primogeniture. If the Norman Conquest had never happened, this would be the true line of kings and queens. (Maybe. I mean, the Saxons had a lot of brothers taking precedence over their nephews, so frankly probably not; just roll with it.)

You may notice that it does not, contrary to my previous assertion, come down to James VI & I. It does pass to the Scottish royal house, but later winds up in America, with a family that ranged from Virginia to South Carolina, then up to Tennessee. We actually only avoid by three years having a Confederate colonel as the title holder, which is all kinds of ick.

The reason for this break is simple(ish): during the Scottish Interregnums of 1286-1306, the Guardians of Scotland had to choose between prospective kings. The first time, they chose John Balliol, which was fine: he falls as #18 in our line, and was probably the legitimate heir. But he was deposed, and his son (Edward, #19) never took the throne, and died childless anyway.

After the Second Interregnum, Robert the Bruce took the throne. He was a descendent of David of Huntingdon, just as Balliol had been - but through a junior line. Robert's great-grandmother Isobel of Huntingdon was born in 1199; Balliol's grandmother Margaret of Huntingdon was born in 1194.

That wouldn't be a problem, except that Dervorguilla of Galloway, Margaret's daughter and John's mother, had quite a long list of children. Her male line appears to have died out[*], and the order of her daughters is a matter of some dispute, but the title seems to pass to Cecily, and thus after several generations to the Baronets Peyton.

[*] Or... maybe not. Wikipedia lists an additional son, 'William de Balliol, "Le Scott," who issued John LeScott'. The phrasing is so strange that I ignored him, but if he really existed, then his children take precedence over Cecily's line. SIGH... back to the old drawing board.

To make matters even worse... John Balliol may have had other children, including one Agnes, or Maud, or Anne, who married an ancestor of the Duke of Norfolk. So maybe he's the heir now.

It turns out tracing 1200 years of family tree isn't all that easy!

hS

Slightly less oops: by Huinesoron on 2019-12-03 17:06:10 UTC Reply

The prospective daughter of King John Balliol was probably actually his sister, daughter of John de Balliol and Dervorguilla of Galloway. So that's one line dealt with. (Sadly, it was the easy one...)

As for William "Le Scott"... this discussion suggests he probably isn't a son of Dervorguilla. So that's good! The line settles back down again, with only potential reordering of Dervorguilla's daughters to trip us up.

The five daughters are Cecily, Ada, Margaret, Eleanor, and Maud. Margaret died unwed. Geni confidently lists Cecily first, born 1240, with Ada in '45, 'Ailianora' (Eleanor) in '46, and Margaret in '59. Maud isn't listed, but her daughter was born in 1298; it's unlikely a 60-year-old woman was in any state to bear children, so I assume Maud is younger (the youngest?).

So... maybe we're okay after all!

hS

A More Glorious Revolution by Huinesoron on 2019-11-29 12:38:34 UTC Edited Reply
In 1688, the Parliament of England overthrew its second king: ousting the Catholic James II, it invited in his daughter and son-in-law to take the throne as Mary II and William III. Not long thereafter, it instituted new laws to ensure that no Catholic could ever take the throne. The trigger for all this was the birth of a son, James, to the king, who supplanted his sisters in the line of succession.

Let's imagine a different Glorious Revolution: rather than straight up kicking out the king, Parliament bullied him into changing the law of succession. Now, the eldest child of the monarch would take the throne, male or female. Prince James was no longer Crown Prince, but sat third in line to the throne.

The House of Stuart

King James, brother to Charles II, would have remained king for over a decade after his historical ousting. During this time, his eldest daughter Mary died, leaving her sister to take the throne after James.
- 1. James II (b. 1633, r. 1685-1701)
- 2. Anne (b. 1665, r. 1701-1714) - Daughter
The Jacobite Return

Surprise! The Jacobites get the throne after all. James "the Old Pretender" and his children get exactly the titles they claimed in real life. Presumably Bonnie Prince Charlie's Catholicism was overridden by politics, otherwise I assume there would have been another revolution.
- 3. James III (b. 1688, r. 1714-1766) - Son of James II (#1)
- 4. Charles III (b. 1720, r. 1766-1788) - Son
The Cardinal's Reign

Henry Stuart was a Catholic cardinal, which would have made for an interesting couple of decades.
- 5. Henry IX (b. 1725, r. 1788-1807) - Son of James III (#3)
The Abbess Queen

At this point the succession has to jump clear back to the children of Charles I. His daughter Henrietta had seven children, but only the youngest, Anne, had children. Anne's son became King of Savoy, and began the historical Jacobite claim line, but her daughter Marie Adelaide was older - and her oldest surviving child was Louis XV of France.

Louis died in 1774, long preceeding Henry IX. His daughter Louise Elisabeth predeceased him, leaving the claim to her son Ferdinand, Duke of Parma. He predeceased Henry IX by five years, bringing us to:
- 6. Mary II (Maria Antonia) (b. 1774, r. 1807-1841) - 7x great-granddaughter of Charles I
The Portugese Line

Now the line jumps back to Louise Elisabeth, and goes to her youngest daughter Maria Luisa. She married the King of Spain, and died in 1819. Her daughter Carlota Joaquina married the king of Portugal, dying in 1830; her daughter wound up exiled to Brazil, but returned before her accession as:
- 7. Mary III (Maria Teresa) (b. 1793, r. 1841-1874) - 8x great-granddaughter of Charles I
- 8. Sebastian (b. 1811, r. 1874-1875) - Son
- 9. Francis (b. 1861, r. 1875-1923) - Son
- 10. Mary IV (Maria Cristina) (b. 1889, r. 1923-1981) - Daughter
- 11. John II (b. 1912, r. 1981-1999) - Son
- 12. Mary V (Maria Cecilia (b. 1940, r. 1999-present)
The current heir to Her Majesty Queen Mary V (in actuality the Duchess of Ansola) is her daughter Elena, followed by Elena's son Enrique. And that, I think, is entirely fair.

(As far as gender balance goes: of the 12 monarchs listed in this line, 7 are male, 5 female. That's pretty good, actually!)

hS

Now in family tree format! by Huinesoron on 2019-12-02 11:05:38 UTC Reply

Click here to see a full family tree of the Gloriouser Revolution!

(Not optimised for mobile in the slightest, and goes a bit wonky besides; you might need to zoom out a bit to get Henrietta to fall into place.)

... corrected, because I messed up again by not realising that Ferdinand had an older daughter: Carolina, mother of Her Majesty Queen Amelie.

Who was a pretty amazing person, actually: a composer and playwright, who apparently got married in secret when she found out she was pregnant. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything about her son, so I've been forced to exclude him from the succession.

If anyone HTML/CSS-savvy is looking at this: the tree is basically a bunch of massively-nested divs set to float left. The one thing I haven't managed to do is force it to scroll, rather than dropping Princess Henrietta down underneath the rest of Charles I's children. Any guidance?

hS

Ooh, can you do the Cognate Throne? (nm) by Aurora Morningstar on 2019-12-02 11:41:22 UTC Reply

Workin' on it. :) by Huinesoron on 2019-12-02 12:05:24 UTC Reply

The main problem is that it's going to break repeatedly, because it will overflow a long way to the right. I'm gambling on someone techy popping in with an easy solution before I finish.

Of course there's also the question of how many usurpers I include... ;)

hS

I might have something for the scrolling problem. by Aurora Morningstar on 2019-12-02 12:36:50 UTC Reply

I tinkered with the HTML/CSS in Firefox and found something that works there (cannot test other browsers, though).

In the CSS file, add the line:

div.tl {border: 0px; margin:0px; padding: 0px; width:max-content; }

and in the HTML, replace the second div opener, immediately before the one which represents Charles I, with

[div class="tl"]

(replacing square brackets with angle brackets; the Board won't let me write something that looks like HTML formatting)

This seems to force the container to widen beyond the page width and prevents it from wrapping.

(Also, the usurpers? There are only two, unless you count stuff like the other cadet branches.)

That fixes it. :) by Huinesoron on 2019-12-02 13:13:14 UTC Reply

Thank you. I'm down to Queen Johanna so far, and am in awe at your research which established her existence.

The most likely places to find actual usurpation attempts, as opposed to timeline errors, are after the reigns of Queen Hedwig and King Ulric II. Hedwig was quite likely murdered, and the throne jumped back three whole generations to Herman I. Ulric II's house was spectacularly wiped out: he, his father, and both his children died in the same four-years span, and both his father's wives were murdered (one on the orders of his grandfather, the selfsame King Herman I). Frankly I find myself deeply suspicious of the entire 1430s-1450s. (Come to think of it, that's where the original Usurper Queen's line came from...!)

hS

The family tree of the Cognatic House of Matilda. by Huinesoron on 2019-12-02 15:24:18 UTC Edited Reply

Complete with actual explanation for how this could just possible have happened.

The tree

The nightmare of the early 15th century is confirmed: #15 (Hedwig) was poisoned, #16 (Herman I) had his son (Frederick III)'s wife drowned as a witch, #17 (Frederick III)'s other wife was murdered, and #18 (Ulric II) was assassinated by Hungarians. You couldn't make it up!

I've also managed to resolve the mess of Queen Charlotte's succession: her eldest daughter, Johanna, actually had a daughter of her own, Queen Albertine. Hilariously, this means that none of Charlotte's children claim the throne - but two of her grandchildren do!

hS

The TRUE Royal Line by Huinesoron on 2019-11-29 10:23:27 UTC Edited Reply
As we have learnt, the Usurper Queen Caroline-Christine is a false pretender to the Truly Equal Throne. The true line descends not from King Herman's youngest daughter Anna, but from his second child, Herman. Prince Herman's daughter Margaret inherited the throne not from her father, but from her cousin King Ulrich II. At last, the true tale of our ruling house(s) can be told:

The House of Normandy

The royal line was established by William the Conqueror in 1066. On the principle that a new Royal House is begun every time the throne passes in any direction other than straight down the family tree, the first line ends with his eldest son, who died childless.
- 1. William I the Conqueror (b. 1028, r. 1066-1087)
- 2. Robert Curthose (b. 1051, r. 1087-1106) - Son
The House of England

For the last time, the true royal house held their inheritance in Henry II. They would never reclaim it. King Thomas died young and childless, passing the throne to his uncle.
- 3. Henry I Beauclerc (b. 1068, r. 1106-1135) - Son of William I (#2)
- 4. Matilda I the Empress (b. 1102, r. 1135-1167) - Daughter
- 5. Henry II Curtmantle (b. 1133, r. 1167-1189) - Son
- 6. Matilda II Richenza (b. 1172, r. 1189-1209) - Granddaughter
- 7. Thomas (b. 1193, r. 1209-1217) - Son
The House of Brunswick

The royal line moved firmly into Germany, with Henry III being Count Palatine of the Rhine. When Frederick I died young and childless, the crown passed to his sister Agnes.
- 8. Henry III the Elder (b. 1173, r. 1217-1227) - Brother of Matilda II (#6)
- 9. Irmingard (b. 1200, r. 1227-1260) - Daughter
- 10. Frederick I (b. 1249, r. 1260-1268) - Grandson
The House of Carinthia

The line of Carinthia rose to great heights, only to founder at the last: Queen Hedwig was heir to the thrones of Poland and Lithuania, but was cruelly poisoned by her stepmother.
- 11. Agnes (b. 1250, r. 1268-1295) - Sister of Frederick I (#10)
- 12. Catherine I (b. 12??, r. 1295-1316) - Daughter
- 13. Frederick II (b. 1300, r. 1316-1359) - Son
- 14. Ulric I (b. 1331, r. 1359-1368) - Son
- 15. William II (b. 1361, r. 1368-1392) - Son
- 16. Anna (b. 1381, r. 1392-1416) - Daughter
- 17. Hedwig Jabiellon (b. 1408, r. 1416-1431) - Daughter
The House of Celje

The House of Celje was not a happy one: two of the three kings which make it up died a few years into their reign. It is from King Herman that the Usurper Queen's claim comes.
- 18. Herman I (b. ca. 1360, r. 1431-1435) - Grandson of Frederick II (#13)
- 19. Frederick III (b. 1379, r. 1435-1454) - Son
- 20. Ulric II (b. 1406, r. 1454-1456) - Son
The House of Montfort-Pfannberg-Bregenz

Through her father Prince Herman, Queen Margaret can assert her superior claim to Barbara and her heirs. From this point, her line becomes increasingly hard to trace. King Hugh's date of birth is entirely unknown.
- 21. Margaret (b. 1411, r. 1456-1480) - Granddaughter of Herman I (#18)
- 22. Herman II (b. 1430s, r.1480-1482) - Son
- 23. Hugh (b. 14??, r. 1482-1550) - Son
The House of Montfort

Queen Lucy, despite her short reign, is a keystone of the dynasty: of the six monarchs traditionally listed after her, only one does not look directly to her to support his claim.
- 24. Jacob (b.15??, r. 1550-1573) - Grandson of Herman II (#22)
- 25. Catherine II (b. 1553, r. 1573-1631) - Daughter
- 26. Lucy (b. 1582, r. 1631-1633) - Daughter
- 27. Adam (b. 1604, r. 1633-1657) - Son
The House of Slavata

The last undisputed section of the royal line. King Francis' sons Francis and John predeceased him, breaking the line once again.
- 28. Mary I (b. 16??, r. 1657-1685) - Granddaughter of Lucy I (#26)
- 29. Francis (b.1679, r. 1685-1761) - Son
Disputed - The House of Liechtenstein-Castelcorn

There is no information regarding the two daughters of Mary I, other than their names. No titles passed to them following the death of their brother. They may have died in childhood; they may have died without issue; or they may have married into obscurity. They are presented here as possible claimants, but the main line disregards them.
- 30. == Mary II Barbara - Daughter of Mary I (#28)
- 30. == Mary II Francisca - Daughter of Mary I (#28)
The House of Götzen

Despite the disputed Liechtenstein claims, the crown still passed to a Queen Mary II - this one many generations removed from Queen Lucy. The line of inheritence runs Lucy - Joachim - Ferdinand - Margaret - John - Mary II, but the longevity of Mary I and Francis means that Mary II Maximiliana was the claimant at the time. As for the end of the line, it seems that Queen Antonia died in childbirth, leaving her infant son Earnest to rule until his death.
- 30. == Mary II Maximiliana (b. 1709, r. 1761-1771) - Great-Great-Great-Granddaughter of Lucy I (#26)
- 31. Mary III Maximiliana (b. 1741, r. 1771-1814) - Daughter
- 32. Joseph (b. 1767, r. 1814-1818) - Son
- 33. Rose (b. 1792, r. 1818-1844) - Daughter
- 34. Antonia (b. 1821, r.1844-1847) - Daughter
- 35. Earnest (b. 1847, r. 1847-1875) - Son
The House of Dietrichstein-Proskau-Leslie

The last and current line of the royal family. Charles II reigned from childhood, his rule spanning most of the 20th century. Queen Mary IV has held the throne for many years how; as far as can be determined, her heir is her brother Charles, a Czech politician.
- 36. Sophie (b. 1823, r. 1875-1909) - Granddaughter of Rose I (#33)
- 37. Charles I (b. 1886, r. 1909-1914) - Grandson
- 38. Charles II (b. 1911, r. 1914-1986)
- 39. Mary IV Eleanor (b. 1936, r. 1986-?)
So... all hail Queen Mary? I guess?

hS

The other Usurper. by Huinesoron on 2019-11-29 19:13:54 UTC Reply
For completeness, here is the line of the original Usurper Queen, from Ulric II, the last monarch we can all agree on.

The House of Celje

The last house of the undisputed monarchy.
- 18. Herman I (b. ca. 1360, r. 1431-1435) - Grandson of Frederick II (#13)
- 19. Frederick III (b. 1379, r. 1435-1454) - Son
- 20. Ulric II (b. 1406, r. 1454-1456) - Son
The House of Garai

Anna, daughter of Herman I, died in 1438, leaving her eldest son to usurp the throne from Herman II's line:
- 21. Vladislav (b. 1410, r. 1456-1459) - Grandson of Herman I (#18)
- 22. Anna (b. 1440, r. 1459-1460) - Daughter
The Later House of Garai

After Anna's death, her brother took the throne:
- 22. Job (b. 1447, r. 1460-1481) - Son of Herman I
Disputed - the Third House of Garai

It is known that Job was the last male member of the family, indicating that his brother and his nephew both predeceased him. It is possible that King Job's niece lived on, and potentially even had issue.
- 23. == Ilona (b. 14??, r. 1481-??) - Granddaughter of Herman I
House of Oettingen-Wallerstein

The line now returns to the children of Herman I, crossing to his daughter Elizabeth. Elizabeth married Henry VI, Count of Gorizia; her eldest child Anna seems to have died childless. Her younger daughter Margaret married John the Solemn, Count of Oettingen-Wallerstein, and gave birth to:
- 23. == Lewis (b. 1440, r. 1481-1486) - Great-grandson of Herman I.
House of Brandenburg

At which point the line at last falls to Barbara of Cilli's heirs. Barbara died 1451; her daughter Elizabeth predeceased her. Her daughter, Anne, made it to 1462, but we have to go down to her daughter to find a claimant to the throne:
- 24. Margaret (b. 1449, r. 1486-1501) - Great-great granddaughter of Herman I.
- 25. Joachim I Nestor (b. 1484, r. 1501-1535) - Son
- 26. Joachim II Hector (b. 1505, r. 1535-1571) - Son
- 27. John II George (b. 1525, r. 1571-1598) - Son
- 28. Joachim III Frederick (b. 1546, r. 1598-1608) - Son
- 29. John III Sigismund (b. 1572, r. 1608-1619) - Son
- 30. George I (b. 1595, r. 1619-1640) - Son
- 31. Louise I Charlotte (b. 1617, r. 1640-1676) - Daughter
- 32. Louise II Elisabeth (b. 1646, r. 1676-1690) - Daughter
- 33. Charlotte I (b. 1672, r. 1690-1738) - Daughter
House of Hesse-Homburg

After an incredible run of 10 sequential monarchs, Queen Charlotte's children all died without issue. The line reverts to her brother:
- 34. Frederick (b. 1673, r. 1738-1746) - Son of Louise II (#32)
House of Von Schlieben

Sadly, the only one of Frederick's children to reach adulthood died without issue a year before him. The throne again reverted to a sibling.
- 35. Hedwig I Louise (b. 1675, r. 1746-1760) - Daughter of Louise II (#32)
House of Nassau-Siegen

The throne again reverted to the children of Louise II, but by this time the next claimant, her daughter Elisabeth, had already died. The claim passed to:
- 36. Charlotte II (b. 1702, r. 1760-1785) - Granddaughter of Louise II (#32)
House of Bentheim-Steinfurt

Once again, the queen died without surviving children, passing the claim back to her brother's line. Frederick William had already died, as had his daughter Sophie; she passed the title to:
- 37. Anna I Polyxena (b. 1749, r. 1785-1799) - Great-great granddaughter of Louise II (#32)
House of Ysenburg-Büdingen

And again the claim reverted to a sibling:
- 38. Eleanor Augusta (b. 1754, r. 1799-1827) - Great-great granddaughter of Louise II (#32)
- 39. Earnest I (b. 1781, r. 1827-1852) - Son
- 40. Adelheid (b. 1805, r. 1852-1873) - Daughter
Later House of Ysenburg-Büdingen

Queen Adelheid died childless. Her brother Earnest had already passed on, leaving the throne to his son:
- 41. Bruno (b. 1837, r. 1873-1906) - Son of Earnest (#39)
- 42. Hedwig II (b. 1863, r. 1906-1925) - Daughter
- 43. Elizabeth (b. 1885, r. 1925-1969) - Daughter
House of Stolberg-Roßla

With Elizabeth's death, the claim passed to the daughter of her brother Christoph:
- 44. Caroline Christine (b. 1912, r. 1969-1996) - Granddaughter of Hedwig II
- 45. Ruth (b. 1937, r. 1996-???) - Daughter
So in the end, the Usurper Queen has already passed on. It is unclear whether the New Usurper Queen Ruth has any children, or indeed whether she is still alive.

hS
*dethrones usurper* by Aurora Morningstar on 2019-11-29 13:25:17 UTC Reply
Actually, 'Jacob I' had an older sister, Franciska, from who the actual royal line descends (unless descendants of the other sons of Herman II can be found):

The House of Montfort

Johann I faced a usurpation attempt from his uncle Jacob, whose descendants continue to falsely maintain their claim to the crown to this day.
1. Johann I (b. 1536; r. 1550-1611) - Great-grandson of Herman II (#22)
2. Floris I (b. 1578; r. 1611-1639) - Grandson
The House of Manderscheid

Due to inconsistent records, it is unclear when Arnoldine, daughter of Antonia I and mother of Johanna I, died, and whether she should be considered Antonia's successor.
1. Charles I (b. 1574; r. 1639-1649) - Son of Johann I (#24)
2. Antonia I (b. 1607; r. 1649-1650) - Daughter
3. Johanna I (b. 1641; r. 1650-1698) - Granddaughter
4. Charlotte I (b. 1674; r. 1698-1735) - Daughter
5. Luise I (b. 1696; r. 1735-1744) - Daughter
The House of Asseburg

Despite having at least nine children, four of who succeeded to the throne, Charlotte I has no known current descendants, and all the monarchs of this house appear to have died childless.
1. Auguste I (b. 1697; r. 1744-1748) - Sister of Luise I (#30)
2. Henriette I (b. 1698; r. 1748-1778) - Sister of Luise I (#30)
3. Wilhelmina I (b. 1702; r. 1778-1784) - Sister of Luise I (#30)
4. August I (b. 1762; r. 1784-1816) - Grandson of Charlotte I (#29)
The House of Schwerin

The current line of the royal family, claiming ancestry from Prince Johan-Ludwig, son of Johanna I, although for the last half-century its claimant cannot be clearly determined.
1. Rosalie I (b. 1789; r. 1816-1863) - Great-great-great-granddaughter of Johanna I (#28)
2. Emily I (b. 1820; r. 1863-1900) - Daughter
3. Herman III (b. 1851; r. 1900-1918) - Grandson of Rosalie I (#35)
4. Otto I (b. 1882; r. 1918-1974) - Son
From here, the succession of Otto becomes unclear; the crown would pass most likely to his daughter Grafin (who herself had a son and three daughters, all with unknown dates of death) or else to his son Altwig (died 2002, with three sons), but the specific details (and most importantly, the name of the current monarch) cannot be recovered.

All hail Queen Giselle (maybe). by Huinesoron on 2019-11-29 14:21:00 UTC Reply

Grafin is German for 'countess', which suggests Her Majesty Queen Giselle I should be recorded somewhere. On the other hand, it appears that it became part of a family name in 1919 (with the end of the German Empire), but even so, Otto should be listed somewhere.

This looks like it should be the right family, but King Otto isn't listed. We can find Herman III, but all it says is that he had two sons and a daughter. The other son is Georg, but he's four years younger than Otto.

Ah, here's Otto, with only Altwig listed. We know that Gisela predates her brother by two years, so...

Here's Queen Giselle again. She was listed as alive in 2010. I think we're safe in assuming our glorious monarch is either Giselle I, or her firstborn son, Hubert I.

Unless there's yet another better claim in there somewhere. The fact that both branchings occur within a couple of generations of each other definitely suggests a dynastic war at that point; maybe a whole bunch of these people held the hypothetical throne before everything finally settled down!

hS

Praise King Hubert! (probably) by Aurora Morningstar on 2019-11-29 15:12:33 UTC Reply

Well, if Queen Giselle was still alive in 2010, she would have been 96 years old then, so it's fairly likely that she has died in the intervening decade; if she had not, she would be the oldest-ever current or former state leader. Of course, as a King Hubert would be 83 years old, there's some chance that he is also dead, and the actual monarch is one of Giselle's daughters, or some other unknown descendant.

As for dynastic war, it's possible around the first branch point (Queen Margaret versus Anne of Thuringia; there were rulers of Bohemia, Hungary, Lithuania and Poland who may have been involved by relation to the latter) but seems rather unlikely around the second, given the apparently long and stable reigns of Kings Hugh and Johann.

I recentely saw someone else pondering part of this by Tomash on 2019-11-29 05:44:31 UTC Reply

Have a YouTube video about the Jacobite line made by a person who does a lot of royalty and royalty-adjacent family tree things.

I thought that Jacobite sounded like a religion but I was wrong (nm) by SomeRandomPersonAccount on 2019-11-29 09:37:28 UTC Reply

This is. by Zingenmir on 2019-11-28 15:18:36 UTC Reply

...okay, to be honest, I got lost in a number of places, but I think I'd need to be looking at the family trees myself (or know a lot more about them) to really manage not to. And even so, it's an interesting read.

Also just kind of impressive. I can tell a lot of detail work went into that. Fun detail work, probably :D

Speaking of which: what on Earth prompted this research? That's what I'm really wondering by this point.

~Z

I... really don't know. by Huinesoron on 2019-11-28 15:27:59 UTC Reply

I did the Alfred one out of boredom last week or so, Wiki-crawling the family to find out where it led. Then I did the William one today, discovered it led to the same place, and... decided to run with it. (It would probably be a lot easier with a family tree, actually; but I work with what I've got. ^_~)

I've just gone and extended the final 'Equal Rights Descent' from William the Conqueror; somehow I've managed to reach the mid-1700s before running out of easy targets. It certainly looks like our destined monarch is likely to be bopping about in Germany! If I reach the present day, I think I'll have to concile it into a list of who exactly would have reigned at any given moment, despite the complete lack of sense that makes. :D

hS

Spoiler: Sword and Shield’s post game and Galar’s monarchy by SomeRandomPersonAccount on 2019-11-28 13:50:39 UTC Edited Reply

Sword and Shield also has two people who have royal blood in them. After completing the main quest, you unlock a post story quest about two brothers, Swordward( the guy with a pillar of hair) and Shieldberg( the guy with normal looking hair).

They had a conspiracy theory that the legendary Pokémon of Galar were sham and that they wanted to expose them, by increasing the size of wild Pokémon( ooh very scary).

After you defeat them, they regret their actions and are probably escorted to a police station. Leon also confirms that they are part of the royal family of Galar, but I’m very confused with the plot.

So, the two kings were actually the legendary Pokémon, but Shieldberg and Swordward are related to the throne, so they are Pokémon? I’m very confused. I also don’t know who the other members of the royal family are other than the brothers. Or what the actual government is like.

I have no idea. I’m just saying this because it’s related to “monarchy” and “royalty”.

Edit: I have also realised that the thread was related to the British monarchy, and Galar is essential Britain but as a Pokémon region. This was a coincidence.