Subject: Re: On selecting/electing IRC DAs and Mods
Author:
Posted on: 2012-09-26 18:36:00 UTC
Can't really say anything except that I agree.
On that How To Talk About Harassment thing, I don't really know how to do this without either hiding in the shadows or blaring it out into public. The latter will inadvertently cause people with no idea on what happened to just say something, no matter if it fits.
Yes, I know, another post about chatroom business, another wail of the leaderless multitude, et cetera, etc.
The thing is, we've been noticing that the IRC doesn't have a whole ton of mods (I think we have... two? Plus the Bot, which can kick for mechanical infractions, but can't ban in the case of trolls, and doesn't have the human perception to note people violating Rule One), and the DAs are lacking in pretty much any power whatsoever. This is partially the point, as I think DAs were put in place less to wield Cudgels Of Authority and more to remind people they were trampling toes, but with few DAs and fewer mods, people are beginning to worry about issues arising. Also, because it has been brought up in the past, Mods aren't perfect, Mods are human, and therefore very much capable of violating Rule One, getting into arguments that upset people, saying hurtful things, and so on - I've certainly done it. Right now, DAs have no power to kick mods, and have to rely entirely on the mod who's causing problems to relent, apologize, listen to reason, and/or withdraw. As I said, we haven't had a serious issue arise in a while, but I know I've gotten in arguments with people on the chat, and Plat's had to sort of forcefully go "Take this elsewhere, or stop talking about it," and although I really really really appreciate his skill and tactfulness in doing so, it would really make his job - the job of any and all DAs - much easier if they could go "Take this elsewhere, or stop talking about it; if you refuse, I will kick the lot of you until you come to your senses."
I personally haven't seen any massive behavioral issues, and I haven't heard anything about such, so this might seem a bit like jumping the gun or looking for trouble. But, as with Permission-Giver Census, I'd rather see this averted before anything has a chance to pop up, rather than waiting until crisis hits and then scrambling amidst the impending waves of drama.
I should also clarify, here - I'm not worrying about people going out and being jerks and bullies to each other. I really do think we're above that; what with the issues that popped up here some months ago, I think we now have the framework and the precedent and the backup in the Constitution to shut that sort of thing down, and that's a huge step in the right direction. What I'm more worried about is situations like trolls, people wandering into the IRC from other channels or wherever, with the idea of causing mayhem and anger. If neither of the mods are around, which is very easily possible, since we only have two, and the troll breaks no Bot-programmed rules, there's a lot of really nasty damage they could do with the space.
Basically, ideas to solve this have been tossed around, discussed, put aside, and then picked up again. The one that came to attention most recently is regularly-spaced elections for both Mods and DAs - that way, we don't wind up with anyone put up as a Mod who's not a regular, and winds up disappearing; if someone does disappear, it only lasts until the next election. Likewise with DAs, we can vote on regulars who appear to be really good at keeping the peace and not going mad with power.
The spacing that was suggested was mods every 2 months, and DAs every three months, and that nobody be allowed to serve two consecutive terms.
I'm not entirely one-hundred percent sure on the serving of two consecutive terms, what with the occasional lack of steady and really-good-at-authority regulars en masse, but that's a matter for A Lot Of People to talk about and decide, I think.
My further additions would be
1) to have the elections for both be on the seasonal equinoxes and midpoints, since those are relatively easy to remember, evenly spaced by definition, and tend to make excellent Beginnings And Endings, psychologically speaking.
2) to up the mod-count to three or four at each election, and the DA count to four or five.
3) if it is at all possible, to give DAs full admin-stars, instead of half-stars, for the purpose of allowing them to kick mods when necessary.
The form that has been suggested/put together for said elections is here.
Addendum: Does anyone know whether or not to capitalize the word "Mod"? It's driving me crazy, I think I just went back and forth at least three times.
---IRC Channel Business Over---
Aaaand having finished that, let me just confuse the threads even more by throwing in a personal point of opinion - have we ever put in place a system of How To Talk About Harassment?
I mean... let me clarify, with that. One of the major things that threw me about the Really Big Explosion some months ago was that so very few of us had any idea that harassment of Boarders had been going on, partly because most of it, IIRC, took place out of public eye. If someone doesn't openly do horrible things in community space, but hides them behind shadows and walls, is there any way, besides exposing yourself with a massive Community Alert Message, to tell someone, explain what's going on, get help?
Because it kinda seems like we should have one. I'd hope it never becomes necessary, but just in case, it might save a lot of people a lot of emotional wear in the future.
Apparently we are worried about mods abusing their position to become exempt from the rules of the community. What some of you may not know is that I am the only op on the IRC with the exception of Dann, who rarely visits and who I'm sure is exempt from the elections by virtue of being the only person with the know-how to keep the place running.
By my own admittance, I'm a poor tyrant. My iron grip on the chatroom is anything but and the improper use of my powers is profund: indeed, I have barely used them at all. I have no problem with other mods being elected to assist(I'd put money on them being better mods than myself) since I obviously can't be on all day, but a primary component of these proposals is the ousting of the mods given power through the current system, which amounts to me since all the others have left. These changes are the result of the community's collective distrust of authority popping up again, something that amuses and disgusts me in equal measure since it is a perennial concern among this comunity despite no mod, op, or PG doing ANYTHING to deserve such suspicion in the two and a half years I have been here. Indeed, it seems that the ops have more to fear from the people than the other way around as last year's events have proven. I'm amused that these people continue to tell you that the moderation is something that must be chained up and controlled for fear of power tripping as the only unchecked ambition I have seen so far is theirs, and it never ceases to amaze that you continue to buy it despite no evidence ever being presented that this is the case. This attitude is part of the problem that caused the mass exodus earlier this year because apparently mods are the exception to the "harassment is bad" rule.
But I digress. Whether the target is myself or the @ beside my name, it is a bad time to be me, and with there being a grand total of nine ops in a room that barely ever breaks fifteen people(and really, what is the difference between an op and a DA in this plan? You're aware that the regulatory body now has the same powers, if not more, than the body they are meant to regulate?), I am no longer necessary nor do I wish to remain. You may do as you please. Keep chasin' that phantom fascist, folks. If you need me, I will be with the devil in his elite Siberian resort hunting a vampire. Dragon.
TL;DR 
I'm sorry - when I added my approval of what VixenMage was proposing, I didn't know anything about what's gone on in the past year. I still only know odds and ends of it.
I don't even know anything about mods or DA's or whatever - I saw something that seemed to make sense to me and agreed with the logic I saw in it. But that wasn't fair - to you or anyone else who's a mod. Not when I know squat about the setting. So...I'm sorry if my agreeing, along with everyone else's, made you feel unwanted.
Good luck wherever you go now, and don't forget about us, yeah?
I definitely didn't have in mind to target you (or Plat) when I said I like the idea of rotating people in and out. You both seem to handle it well. I've seen people get stressed before and (not that I'd ever be in a DA position but if I were) I'd be stressed if I was stuck in the position permanently and I'd want to rotate out to alleviate that, so my support of that was me projecting how I'd feel in the position onto the position and this vote.
I'm sorry if I made either of you feel like I was saying you are or have been doing a bad job.
I'm sorry - that you're leaving, that this message upset you, that I made you feel unwelcome, that I made you feel targeted. I'm sorry. I have no problem with the job you've been doing as a mod. Why would I? As you point out, you've never used the mod powers at all, that I've ever seen. I mean. For what it's worth, you were better at the modding than I was at the DAing.
Considering what's been said between us in the past about authority, maybe this thread seems like a continuation of arguments that happened a year ago, maybe longer. I didn't mean it to be. I'm sorry; it honestly was not meant as an attack.
It's been cool having you around, and good luck anywhere you wind up.
I have a pair of thoughts...
Firstly, we tend to not see each other much, because I'm at work until well after midnight GMT, and then it's an hourlong commute home. Yay, eight-hour time difference.
Secondly, I will personally hunt down and shoot anyone who says that I'm exempt from elections. I am definitely not the only Boarder who knows how to drive an IRC channel - and if push comes to shove, we can always give someone powers to fix things that need fixing. Or copy-pasta commands, or some other ridiculously contrived system. Or just read the documentation.
So, that said - take care, etcetera. You've been solid and great fun.
You may be gone, but you won't be forgotten, boss. The PPC's fear of a lightning strike of moderation may be a bit much, but you were always pretty good. Your dedication was patriotic, and I'll snake my way into the gears to keep everything turning.
...shagohod.
I'll stay a DA. But, I don't check the board often, so let me know when those votes are happening. I'm usually in the IRC.
I need to get to know the people in the chat better in terms of who would make a good mod before I vote, because right now my opinion is that pretty much [i]everyone[/i] is ok at it.
I visit the IRC about once in a blue moon (generally when I'm reminded it exists :P ) but I'm glad to see that people are considering ways to keep things from getting too out of hand. That's been something of an issue for me - whenever I wander in, things seem to get unpleasant and I leave again because I don't want to be entangled in all of that. More people who can keep unpleasantness from getting out of hand can only be a Good Thing.
Regarding the How To Talk About Harassment issue, I'm willing to be involved in helping out there. (As most of you guys probably know, I'm more or less the eternal peacemaker around here, so this topic really appeals to me. :P) The suggestions made in-thread - having the equivalent of a support line available for people who feel they're being harassed - seems pretty good to me, as long as we have a few people willing to join in the support network... and, maybe, a formal way to deal with the issue other than just offering sympathy.
My personal suggestion for how to handle it:
1. Someone contacts one of the volunteers manning the support line (referred to hereafter as "us" or "we"), saying they're being harassed.
2. We reply, letting them know we take them seriously, and promise to investigate. We also get as much detail as we can about the harassment.
3. We then contact the person/people/beings/sentient cheeseburger/etc. alleged to have been causing the harassment, explaining the situation and asking for their side of the story.
4a. If they reply with an explanation for their behaviour, understand they've upset the first person, and (IMPORTANTLY) seem genuinely remorseful, talk to both parties and get them to make up. Essentially, mediation to talk the whole thing over and smooth it out. The issue should be resolved.
4b. If they reply trying to explain away their behaviour as being justified (and there is no reasonable justification), we politely but firmly ask them to knock it off, as whatever their feelings on the matter making someone miserable is not in the spirit of the PPC, and we have a whole shiny member-written Constitution to back that up.
5. If the issue doesn't stop at polite requests to quit it, it's time to take more action; call in other members of the support line to discuss what the next course of action is. Telling the harasser to leave the PPC? Requesting that they cut all contact with the person they've been harassing? I'm open to suggestion here. However, splashing it all over the Board should not be an easy option; we've seen how that goes. A few reasonable people can get together and talk it out without calling in the entire community.
So, guys... thoughts?
- Cassie, trying to be proactive for once
Your steps for dealing with harassment sound logical, thorough, and most likely effective. It's very important to have some form of hotline, I think, and just as important to have steps 3 and 4. I think most hurt feelings come about due to misunderstandings or ignorance of how one person's actions are affecting another person's feelings, and both of those can be dealt with much more effectively through mediation than letting them fester until they explode all over the Board. Obviously not in all situations, as some people are just jerks and intent on remaining jerks, which is why there is a step 5.
In the case of those intent on being jerks, there are the guidelines in the constitution for how to deal with them. I would suggest that if one of those consequences must be activated that a summary post made by the mediator/mediators (maybe by the Nameless Mediator) stating as neutrally as possible, "Person X has been banned for breaking Rules 2, 5, and 8 of the PPC Constituion. This was handled with all due process through the Harassment Hotline and this was the last available measure. All involved parties have already been informed of the consequences. Details are being withheld to protect the privacy of involved parties"
That way the Board is notified as to why Person X is no longer around, and says clearly that there is no cause for drama to erupt, because the situation has already been dealt with.
Okay, it might be wishful thinking on my part to think that no one would get dramatic over such a thing, but it is at least an attempt, and a clear statement that the situation is under control.
And as for harassment things - I suggest coming up with a... well, hotline of sorts? Like, people can volunteer contact information so that Boarders who are feeling harassed can contact them for help and so forth. I know for sure that my email and Tumblr ask box are always open for all of you guys.
And you can make that a page on the Wiki, and link to it on the Board and the IRC and stuff.
(Wow. A lot of support and awesome and thanks, guys, I was a bit worried about this!)
1) Not my post, not my ideas! All of this was discussion with other people, catalyzed by talking to Tray. Very little of this is original content. Just... um, for the record.
(Let me also clarify that because this was the conglomeration of other people's ideas, what I meant by "I'm not entirely one-hundred percent sure on the serving of two consecutive terms" was, specifically, that I think we should allow consecutive terms, because we don't have a megaton of steady regulars who are good at DA/Modding. But my priorities here were to get the word out.)
2) I swear with all my heart that this post is not a reflection on current Mods or Admins or DAs. You guys - all of you - have been doing a great job. It's just a way of putting the system up to support a population and community that has a lot of people coming and going - and, as pointed out down-thread, to avoid authority, both the good and bad sides, landing on anyone's shoulders alone, or for too long.
3) I'm just going to answer questions in this post, if that's okay with everyone?
--DAs can kick 'regular' members, but not mods. I see this as an issue, because sometimes Mods break the rules! It doesn't make them bad people, but it is a fact that should be acknowledged - I mean, we don't hold PGs up to be above thwappings.
--I would be in favor of doing elections now, since the equinox was last Saturday, and closing them this Saturday, or whatever. But I also wouldn't be opposed to waiting until Midwinter? Or whatever other dates people prefer?
--Oh dear Eru, please never use Moderator as a title while speaking to someone. I will hide under a rock and never ever come out.
--On DAs and Mods being unnecessary in simultaneous time, I actually kind of support having the roles separate - mods are sort of just there to solve problems of banishment, hard-authority (like, "The consequences for what you just did, X, are Y days banned, and /ban"). Also there's the fact that Mods are sort of Admin-y, and so expected to know how to operate an IRC channel, be able to sort of get technical errors, deal with the Bot, the channel, and so on - not something we expect DAs to have to do. So I'm in favor of keeping them separate.
4) So, on to the questions, which should be voted on/discussed first, probably.
A: Are we in favor of elections?
B: How often, and when, to be held? (Including the first: now or later?)
C: How many DAs do we need? How many Mods? (are we keeping both positions?)
D: Do we give DAs a full star? (Is this possible?)
E: Are we allowing consecutive terms?
*Your description of mods and DA's here makes perfect sense to have two separate entities, especially with the technical side of the mod's duties. I wasn't sure before what would really be different about the two. Thank you for answering.
A: Are we in favor of elections?
B: How often, and when, to be held? (Including the first: now or later?)
C: How many DAs do we need? How many Mods? (are we keeping both positions?)
D: Do we give DAs a full star? (Is this possible?)
E: Are we allowing consecutive terms?
I'm not sure why consecutive terms would be a bad thing, except insofar as having non-consecutive terms might serve well to eliminate that sense of awe/wonder/terror that tends to accompany Authority Figures. All just folk, I think is the plan you're going for, yeah? Except DAs being folk with the power to tell people to shape up or ship out.
I'm not sure where the power division is honestly. I thought DAs could kick, but I guess I haven't been in the IRC when kicking's become necessary? I do agree elections are good -- are we doing that now, then, or are you just bringing it up to remind people that it is a thing that should happen?
As to talking about harassment--
Someone else in the area suggested anonymity. I don't think that's a great idea, simply because of the lack of accountability -- if someone goes rogue, so to speak, no way to tell -- but at the same time, if it's people that have a long history around, there's intimidation factor etc. and I think talking to someone you know can be harder than someone faceless? So would have to figure a way to account for both of those.
But really, there should be some kind of way to get in touch, and, if there's any question, provide screenshots/logs...
I really don't know, but you have good ideas. :)
This is a good idea - that's all I can say. Great job, VM.
On the DA/moderator issue, it seems that Elections would be an efficient method of ensuring someone doesn't get caught up in prejudicial ly banning or other hazards, and having the power in the first place is an excellent deterrent to possible trolls.
On the subject of harassment, perhaps a private messaging system, or designated group of anonymous helpers would work? Such as people who volunteer to listen to problems cropping up, send an alert out, and keep an eye on the IRC and board perhaps? Just a thought.
Finally, on Moderator vs moderator, I believe moderator would be the noun used in average speech; however, Moderator would refer to the moderator currently online or one you are talking to.
Nothing to add besides my agreement. It shouldn't be too much trouble, and potentially can help a lot, so let's make this happen.
I think this is very well thought out. I kind of like the bit about rotating through DAs and mods every few months and people not being able to serve consecutive terms. It really breaks up any potential issues of people thinking "Oh those people are definitely in charge" which is something I know VM, in particular, wishes to avoid.
In the case of the IRC, I think it is a very good idea. It avoids people looking at one or two people as the ultimate authority and takes some of the stress off people in those positions, because they won't have to take on the mindset and responsibility of being permanently "in-charge". I think it will help bring folks more into the idea of being generally responsible and involved, also. If they know that the folks in those positions could be themselves in a few months, then I think it will encourage them to be more thoughtful and conscientious.
I was wondering one thing, though. If we have the DAs having equal power as the mods (and I think this is a good idea, so no one is above being told to behave when they need it), is it really necessary to have both? The DAs could have both powers of telling people to knock it off and banning if needed and I would be okay with that with this set up.
Can't really say anything except that I agree.
On that How To Talk About Harassment thing, I don't really know how to do this without either hiding in the shadows or blaring it out into public. The latter will inadvertently cause people with no idea on what happened to just say something, no matter if it fits.
I agree with everything here, including putting in place a system to get help with harassment if there isn't one already (and I don't think there is). A list of people who have shown themselves to be trustworthy, kind, generally Nice and not in the sarcastic way, and are there as a go-to for moral support...? I don't know. It's a hard subject.
I'll put my nominations for DAs and Mods in... eventually. Probably today. I need to clear my brain from math homework by trying out my new boat anchor awesome desktop computer by playing this Star Trek Online thing.
- Lielac
P.S.: Capital M. I think.