Subject: Yes, I do pretty much talk like that in real life.
Author:
Posted on: 2021-06-20 13:24:47 UTC
So you want me to do a big rewrite on this, and find a beta in the PPC. Could you be my beta? Also, is there a place in LOTR where it says that Morgul-blades can’t be used more than once if they haven’t been exposed to sunlight and vanished?
For my permission request, I am combining the control prompt and the random prompt into a single story. Here it is: Permission Request: Agent Bios and Story
I was hoping the answer was no, and I could ask you to get it beta'd and then look at it again afterward. Since that's not the case, I'm afraid I have to say Permission Denied for now, and I have some notes for you. I know it's a lot of text, but don't be scared! I ask a lot of questions I want you to think about as practice for asking similar questions and thinking about things on your own, and I try to explain my points clearly, that's all.
I skipped the bios, because I like to see how well the stories, or story, in this case, establishes the characters without them, so I'm just commenting on the writing. There are a couple of fairly large technical errors that a beta should ideally have caught, such as the dialogue formatting issue Nova mentioned. Additionally, the second sentence is incomplete:
> If it wasn’t bad enough that she was being reassigned because of Bragnard grumbling about her cat, Onions, destroying his furniture, her mini-Balrog, Thraindul, digging mini-abysses under his bed and messing with his Exosuit.
Not to get too technical, an "if" phrase must be followed by a "then" phrase, which this sentence doesn't have. I'm left wondering "if all that wasn't bad enough, then... what was?"
And there's a period where there should be a comma at the end of a speech before a dialogue tag in a few places:
> Also, the Sue doesn’t seem to have a name.” she said
> besides my throwing knives.” she said
> “You’re awake.” Rebecca said to her.
More important than that, though, there were several things I felt needed to be thought through a bit more.
For one, you describe Rebecca's bookshelf and the cart it's on together as being too wide to fit through the door. If this is a normal bookshelf, why not just turn it longwise to the door instead of width-wise? Surely the cart can also be aligned longwise, and you'd want as much of the shelf as possible on the cart, parallel not perpendicular? If it's not a normal bookshelf, what sort of bookshelf is it? Also, if it's so heavy and full of books that Rebecca and Deirdre had to unload the books to move it, how did Rebecca get it on the cart with all the books on it in the first place? I didn't get the impression her previous partner was inclined to be helpful. If he was, why wouldn't he come along?
Next: I picked up below that Rebecca is basically you, yes? I wonder, do you know how to use a sword properly? I mean, my brother learned fencing starting in high school, and I know people who did mock-battles with padded PVC "weapons" and/or learned stage combat, but none of those are the same thing as wielding your standard Western medieval longsword (my default assumption when you saw "sword") in actual combat. I have serious doubts about the average fifteen-year-old from World One being able to just pick this up. I glanced at the bio and I saw you have a line there about her practicing sword-fighting, but that still doesn't explain how she learns what to practice. Does she have a teacher? Where do you find one of those in this day and age? Are such niche lessons and equipment within her family's means?
On a related note, Deirdre not only parrying the Sue's sword with a knife but actually making the Sue drop her sword with a knife beggars belief. I'm not an expert myself, but unless Deirdre is very, very strong and probably very lucky, too, I don't think physics allows that; and that's before you add in the nature of Suvians to be the best at everything they do without trying.
And after that, the Sue conveniently hits her head on a rock and passes out, and later she conveniently wakes up when it's time to charge her. That's too much convenience.
Also, I think Nova touched on this, but jumping into a fight where you know there are Nazgûl is just not smart. They didn't even try to get the Sue away by stealth. That is very poor planning—in fact, looking over it again, there was zero planning. They're lucky they got off with a non-fatal stabbing.
Speaking of which: they took the Witch-king's knife. Doesn't he need that? Plus, since Deirdre was stabbed in pretty much the same way as Frodo, and on the same clock toward turning into a wraith, it seems to me the point must have broken off inside her instead of Frodo. That's mucking with the canon as surely as anything.
And anyway, leaving the Sue within the continuum as a wraith is still leaving the Sue active in the continuum. Sues are quite capable of corrupting the forces of evil as well as good.
Finally, re. the fic you've chosen for sporking, I disagree with your assessment. I read the fic, since it's short, and I don't think Aragorn is badly OOC. He could be written better, with more wariness, yes—he could at least have asked exactly where McCoy came from and what he was doing in that place of all places—but remember that he is wary because he is wise. He's a good judge of character, and as a healer himself, he would know Boromir was beyond his own skill to save. Given the choice between letting a stranger try to save him or letting him die without trying, I think Aragorn would give the stranger a chance. The worst that could happen is that Boromir dies anyway. And if the stranger does turn out to be evil, then Aragorn can chop his head off.
I also agree with Nova that there isn't much there to make jokes out of, and I note that the author is aware that Boromir not dying would change the course of the story; they just chose not to explore the AU beyond the one scene they wanted to write. There's nothing wrong with that.
That said, it's not all bad news! There were some moments I really liked, such as Rebecca reacting to seeing Frodo vanish in real life for the first time and being frozen with fear before the Witch-king, Deirdre leaping to her rescue, and the two of them checking in on a future point in the story to see if their intervention worked. They seem like decent people. I'd like to see more in the way of banter between the two of them and see more of their personalities outside of a combat situation (which they shouldn't have been in to start with). They didn't really talk to each other much in this story, just exchanged facts. (And, side note: Do you really talk like Rebecca does? Do you know anyone who talks like that in real life?)
So, for next time: Take more time. Think things through. Research things you're not familiar with, including PPC things. Double-check your canon sources for details. Focus on showing us who your agents are. And consider getting an extra beta who is familiar with the PPC and isn't related to you. {= )
~Neshomeh
So you want me to do a big rewrite on this, and find a beta in the PPC. Could you be my beta? Also, is there a place in LOTR where it says that Morgul-blades can’t be used more than once if they haven’t been exposed to sunlight and vanished?
When I was younger, I did a lot of fights with plastic lightsabers with some kids I knew. I don’t suppose that counts as knowing about sword fighting? Now I’m thinking about having Rebecca do archery or something. Archery is a thing I have actually done (I’m a little rusty, but I do know how to do it more than sword fighting).
Yes I really do talk pretty much like Rebecca does. It’s partly because I am something of a language geek (I love Latin) and because my parents get really mad if I use actual cuss words, so I mutter things in Latin and Shakespearean insults. As you can probably tell, I love Shakespearean insults. They are funny, and sometimes you can get away with being very rude without everyone catching on.
I liked your original reply without the "okay, fine" attitude better. {= /
~Neshomeh
But, if you want to keep the some of the better elements from this one, I suggest starting with an outline. List the elements you really want to use, then plan how to connect them in new ways using the feedback you've gotten from me and Nova. Keep in mind "show, don't tell." A common response to beta questions when you're still learning is to just insert an answer or explanation into the narrative, or have the characters do an "As You Know, Bob," but that tends to result in stiff prose and doesn't necessarily fix the underlying issue. (Link includes advice on how not to do an AYKB.)
Unfortunately, I can't agree to beta the new piece for you myself. I'm barely keeping the commitments I already have at the moment.
As for the LotR question: My concern is less that the knife can't be used twice, but more that its tip can't break off twice. It only has one tip, and it's supposed to break off in Frodo's shoulder, then slowly work its way toward his heart. If it had pierced his heart, then he would have become a wraith, as I believe Gandalf explains to him in Rivendell after he recovers. I think Gandalf says he was already starting to fade by the time he got there, too. IIRC, he and/or Sam remark on how much Frodo's appearance has improved.
Of course, it would be much harder to stab effectively using a knife with no point, so you might well not even try it, especially since you have to pierce the heart for the sorcery to work properly. And I don't know if the sorcery could be used again once the blade broke, come to think of it. It might all be tied up with the piece doing its work inside Frodo?
... And then I checked the source, because that's always a good idea. Here are some quotes from The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter 1, "Many Meetings":
> Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with the notched blade that had vanished in Strider's hands. 'Don't be alarmed!' said Gandalf. 'It [the splinter removed by Elrond] is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.'
The blade vanishes in Aragorn's hand; I remember now, they even show that in the film. Since they have to melt the splinter, I'm not entirely sure whether it was the dawn light that dissolved the rest of the blade or if it would have vanished on its own anyway. I suppose Gandalf could mean they "melted" the splinter in daylight, but since Tolkien phrased it in a way that suggests melting in a forge, I'm more inclined to think it was just that.
And it's still night when Aragorn finds it in the film, too, so if it's movieverse, then daylight definitely has nothing to do with it.
I'll also highlight the bit where Gandalf points out not everyone would succumb to a wound like Frodo's at the same rate, and that Frodo is remarkably resilient.
> 'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord.'
I read "Morgul-knife" to mean a metaphorical knife, one of dark sorcery (that's what morgul means). The index of my copy of LotR only lists that one use of the term; the physical knife is simply called a knife or long blade. I reckon the physical blade is less important than the sorcery it delivers, and since the sorcery remains in whatever wound is given, the blade doesn't have to last beyond one use. (Maybe the sorcery itself weakens what was otherwise good metal?) Good thing such a dangerous weapon is fragile, though, or there might be wraiths everywhere.
There's also plenty of description about how the wound affects Frodo and how his arm looks a little transparent to Gandalf even now that he's recovering. I think when Gandalf says "You were beginning to fade" (which he does), we can take that literally, though perhaps you'd need the eyes of a wizard (or a Ringwraith) to notice anything in someone who hasn't fully succumbed.
None of which really matters, because the agents aren't going to be silly enough to put themselves in a position to be stabbed by the Witch-king in the first place this time, right? {= ) Still, goes to show it always pays to look up the details!
~Neshomeh
While it has been very clear that you've been excited about the PPC given the posts that you have made, and it is good to see someone trying to jump into the PPC 'verse. I think that perhaps you need to slow down a little bit and spend a bit more time interacting with the whole PPC community before going for Permission. I know that you joined the Discord two months ago yesterday, and while I'm not massively active on the Discord, I do lurk and your name is not one that comes to mind when I look at what's been said since I was last on. Similarly with your posts on the Board, since you introduced yourself just over a month ago, a lot of them are threads that you're creating that have had relatively minimal interaction from those in the community and you've had little interaction with the community outside of those posts.
Like I said, I'm not a PG, I don't have any power over this and (due to the fact it's my lunchtime when I'm typing this) I haven't looked over your actual Permission Request yet to give you any feedback on that. But I would suggest slowing down and interacting with the community more, let us get the chance to know you better and so that you can get to know the community as a whole better.
Nova
Right, now that I've not got pesky things like work to worry about...
Your Agents:
Deirdre. Ooh a completely Original Character, last person I'm aware of that went for that instead of someone from an existing canon or World One was... well... me actually, so welcome to the club! (warning: there is no actual club). Personally, I'd like to see more information on her, in the history section we have a lot of information on Deneb V and while that information is nice and interesting it doesn't really gives us more of a feel for Deirdre as a person (I also have a few questions about the setting and Deirdre, but rather than make this bit even bigger than it is, they're at the bottom). The other bit that I am wary of is, despite the slight power creep that there has been (or there feels to have been) in PPC Agents over the years just how powerful is she? PPC Agents as a whole generally fall on the more normal side of the spectrum, the idea isn't for them to go in all guns blazing and be able to hold their own against the 'Sue, but to be able defeat the Sue through other means. So where does Deirdre fall on that spectrum? This was one of the things that I had to think about quite a lot when I was making one of my Original Characters an agent, just how powerful is their superpower (my character was from a story that had similairites with the X-men for reference) and how does that fit in with the general tone of missions in the PPC. I'm not saying you've got anything wrong, I'm just saying to think about it.
Rebecca. Not really got a problem with Rebecca, the only thing I might question is her age, which might be a year or two on the low side, but it's nothing massive.
The Prompt(s). So, I'm going to admit, I haven't read the full thing, because its a mission (even if the badfic is made up), and personally I don't know how I feel about a mission being used as a Prompt response in a Permission Request. From what I have read, I'd like to see more of Onions (and Thraindul I guess, seeing as it appears like he only exists to cause the trouble that causes Rebecca to leave her old RC as he's not mentioned after that) and there's a very big chunk of exposition deposited in the first paragraph that I'm not a hundred percent certain is necessary, you could probably get away with ending the sentence "...and messing with his Exosuit." and then picking straight back up with "All of this was only..." (which I think needs an 'in' between 'only' and 'her'). We don't really need to know the rest of it, we can pick up on most of it by what's being inferred. The other thing I would pick up on (because I'm guilty of doing it too) is making sure that you space properly for speech, so speech should be it's own seperate paragraph instead of all being lumped into one.
The Badfic. I'm not going to say it's not bad. But I don't know if it's missionable or not. It's on the short side for one, and for the second, I don't know what the Agents would be doing there. I think it might be something for the DIC but even then I'm not certain there's enough there for the mission to be enjoyable and worth it, so to speak.
I think there's a solid base here, and it's a good first effort for a Permission Request, but there are areas that could be improved.
Nova
P. S. The questions from earlier re: Deirdre and Deneb V. How did the humans that were on Deneb V get there? Why are they considered a separate species? How did they get Magic to learn in the first place? How do they speak English (or if they don't, how does Deirdre)? How is Aragorn Deirdre's lust object (is it from the time that she's been in the PPC, did the inhabitants of Deneb V get certain bits of culture and media from Earth or is it through some other means)?
Deirdre is probably not powerful enough to start throwing fireballs, more like being able to start a campfire without matches or be able to warm herself and her partner up a bit if it's cold. She's not some sort of crazy sorcerer who can do everything with fire. The humans on Deneb V got their by some sort of spaceship, which crashed on Deneb V. The humans stayed there for a very long time, because Deneb V is very far away from Terra. The magic was discovered by a combination of messing around and the people reading old tales of times on Terra when there was magic. The people on Deneb V had some of Tolkien's books, so that is why Deirdre's lust object is Aragorn.
The reason why Rebecca is so young is because she is pretty much me, but with a different name. I'm 15, and I don't really know how to write a character who is pretty much myself, but older. Its partly because I don't know where I will be in a few years, and because I don't want to try predict the future and guess wrong and end up having Rebecca be really hard to write because she is vastly different from me. For me, it's easier to have a character who is essentially me so that I can know what to do with her without having to spend lots of time thinking about it.
I have done some editing to my Permission Request based on your comments. I reformatted it based on the speech. I hope it's easier to read. I'm glad you're helping me with this, because it will means the Permission Givers see less of my mistakes. Thanks for the criticism. Is this version better?
About the badfic: I was going to choose another one, but it was really long, (about 140,000 words) and I felt like I didn't really want to dedicate that much time for my first mission. I have other things going on this summer, such as travel, and I do not have the patience of an elephant. Also, I'm changing my agents assignment to the Department of Floaters so I can do this as a mission when there isn't a Sue in it. Also, I'm not really sure where I want my agents to be. The only thing I realy know is that I don't want them to be in the Department of Bad Slash.
I'm not on the PPC Discord. I understand why you think I should wait for Permission, but sometimes I just have a hard time being patient, and I have a tendency to jump into the deep end because I want to get going and do stuff.
Trust me, I can do that sort of thing too. But with things like this, it is better to temper it down a little.
Ah apologies for thinking you were on Discord, I saw someone with a similar name (or start to their name) and thought you were the same people, my mistake.
Nova