Subject: Okay. Thanks.
Author:
Posted on: 2022-04-24 18:10:53 UTC
I'm considering having one agent who absolutely HATES Mary Sues and another who'd rather reform them. Thoughts on that concept? (Though that's not all to either's personality)
What do you think are some characteristics of a good Agent pair?
They should maybe do a smooch
(So, definitely not my first planned one, where one partner is 30ish years older than the other. But maybe later pairs.)
With a few kisses between coworkers?
I would do it with Agents that would be the right age, have interest in each other, etc.
The smooching is between an adult human and an adult Tolkien elf?
The Agents that I was asking for are (Probably, I'm not sure yet) 15 and 43. Just so you know.
In general, though, with elves and humans, I think that's okay..I believe that would apply to Agents Constance and Daffydd.
The key difference being that an adult elf and human are both at about the same stage of their lives. The simplest model of Elvish aging is that they reach adulthood at about the same rate as humans, and then just stop aging pretty much forever.
(Tolkien being Tolkien, It's More Complicated Than That, but for all of HQ's elves that's basically the situation.)
So an elf and an adult human are going to be, approximately, at equivalent points. Constance was about 23 when she and Dafydd got together; over on the canon side, Beren was about 32 when he met Luthien, while Tuor married Idril at age 30 (having arrived in Gondolin at 23). Aragorn fell in love with Arwen at 21, though he didn't do anything about it for a while. So yes, 20s-30s is about right for elf-human relationships.
(Given how ad-hoc my timelines have been, I live in fear of discovering I've accidentally made an icky age-gap relationship somewhere. Nothing's turned up yet, though.)
hS
But in terms of development they'd known each other for several years before, and given how Beren and Luthien only knew one another for a year, I'd say E and C were going a bit slow haha
ETA: I have absolutely done squicky age gap, though, when I wrote IAHF. Jen was like 16/17 when she got with Mr Allen/Hugh's secretary, who's... idk, anime ages. But shrug emoji I was also that age when I wrote it so I thought I was Very Mature!
I have an entire proto-novel out there with Very Mature 16 year old protagonists saving the world. At one point they actually got de-aged back to 16 for the sequel. :D
In retrospect it is very lucky that I decided to upstage my cowriter's "Selene is a vampire" revelation by making Dafydd into a famous elf. Otherwise he would have fallen into exactly the same mold.
hS
Or, indeed, Actual Dafydd upstaging Selene?
Two of these are available. :)
hS
Though, honestly, if it's PPC and not squicky then I'd like to give it a shot.
Project Messiah is the fictional universe in question, and technically I have 3 PPC agents from one of its various versions. The original "novel" (16k words) should be at the second link, under the title Messiah Reborn. Beware of the writings of a, cripes, 15 year old who has read way too much Anne McCaffrey.
Dafydd Illian, meanwhile, is the star of Tales From DOGA. His 'haha my back story is even more impressive moment' comes in "Two Worlds United"; it is quite silly.
hS
(Unless none is too much?)
I just pilfered quite a few concepts from her along the way, is all.
hS
I just said “hey, what if that background elf behind Legolas at the RotK coronation had a backstory?” 🤣
The OFU for the anime Axis Powers: Hetalia, which was very big back in 2011-ish. Conceit of the show is basically national personifications being over the top stereotypes. I’m not in the fandom anymore, but the OFU was one of the places where I developed my writing chops so I could write better PPC missions in 2012-2014. It also developed a couple stuff I’ve been playing with in my PPC spin-offs over the years: the New Multiverse Monitor, stuff with the Mirror Multiverse and crossing Multiverses in general, and the League of Mary Sue Factories.
To be honest, I've only seen maybe two anime. (Is that the correct plural?) (Not sure "couple stuff" is grammatical, though)
And that was just the first acronym to pop up in the Google search results. :)
But since you (probably) understood what I meant to convey, I don’t really see the point in correcting it.
Grammar is important when it comes to making yourself understood, or making your writing clear for everyone. That’s why the PPC prefers it when your grammar is good! When we’re getting missions beta’d, or we’ve made some typo, or our post wasn’t clear — those are good times to point out grammar mistakes. Even with missions, we don’t always make jokes about grammatical errors in the fic if that’s not the most egregious thing about it.
I apologise if I come across as overreacting, though! As with all other things, it’s important to strike a balance between descriptivism and prescriptivism.
Not what I was going for. I’m just a bit of a stickler for those things. Though you certainly do have a point.
Gall is quite a bit younger than Derik, but since both of them are badfic characters living in HQ, their ages are "20-something" and "idk, 37? 42?" respectively.
IF I wanted to pin it down and IF they'd aged at a normal rate since their respective recruitments, that would make them about 31 and 48 wait what *cough, wheeze* I'm sorry. I got about ten years stuck in my throat. Dammit I'm old.
ANYWAY, SO, turns out they'd be roughly 17 years apart by rational reckoning, which is a lot. But I think this is mitigated by other factors, such as how Gall is the one pursuing Derik, she's undoubtedly considered a mature adult in her own culture (Berkian Viking), and Derik is still considered in his prime in his (Pernese). They are, in fact, both in the same life stage.
Plus, they're badfic characters living in HQ, so I don't give a toss what rational reckoning says. {= )
~Neshomeh
ETA: minus a plus.
While trying to get my various agent pages up to scratch, I realised Nyx Nightingale is almost 50. I could plausibly have painted her with grey hair! How does that happen?
I've stayed vague on Terri Ryan, putting her down as 'thirties', but, like... she was around in Y2K. Even if she was 13 then, she must be at least 35 now. None of my agents are young any more.
This is why I have so many immortals. Whatever happens, Dafydd, Huinesoron, Mortic, Morgan, and Selene (among others) will always be "very old but doesn't look it".
hS
Only oldbies need bother with that anyhow.
I'm just not planning on any romance at all for my first pair. (Note to self: Read some Gall and Derik missions) [Sorry, mini-Agent!]
(And I'm flattered if you do! I hope you enjoy them.)
Oh, re. rails: Just in case this needs saying, you don't have to reply to every reply if you don't want to. If we go off on a tangent about character ages or whatever and you're not interested, that's okay.
That said, it's been really nice seeing a thread this active! {= )
~Neshomeh
Where's the best place to find new badfic? Outside of the PPC, I don't read much goodfic (sadly) and there are some fandoms I really wish I could find a badfic for.
There's a particular book series/anime adaptation that I want to mission. Oh well, I'm sure I'll find something eventually.
I don't have much experience with Wattpad, and I don't personally look for fic to spork on AO3 because its content is the least restricted and therefore has the greatest concentration of explicit smut outside of a dedicated erotica site, and I'm not writing for the Department of Bad Slash. I suspect that's not your cup of tea, either. {= ) But, Quotev and the good ol' Pit of Voles have served me well. Scanning story summaries for clichés and horrible spelling is a good first step.
I'll also add a suggestion I've been following myself: avoid sporking anything less than five years old. I think it's a good way to address the issue of us allegedly bullying thirteen-year-olds. If the fic is at least five years old, the author should be at least 18 now (assuming you still have to claim to be at least 13 to join most sites), and ought to have gained enough distance from the work to a) recognize its flaws for themself, and b) not take it so dang personally when someone else points them out. 'Course, that won't be possible in new fandoms, but still.
~Neshomeh
I don't look at quotev anymore because I got annoyed with it.
and because my own badfic is up there, which is something I want to forget about
I'd want to forget that too.
I like the try-for-older-stuff rule. It does seem nicer. (And yeah, I don't like smut or whatnot. Certainly not my cup of tea. Yuck.) And poorly-written summaries do tend to contain poorly-written stories.
I was simply being facetious. I like going off the rails. Tangents are fun. :) (I did temporarily create the mini-Agent Derrik. Thanks to edit, he is no more.)
concerns an adult man in his 20s and an adult woman who has become immortal ages ago, way before they meet.
But if all the parameters are correct there's nothing wrong with a few consensual platonic licks between coworkers.
Bickering.
My main pair rarely bicker if at all 🤣
Since entertaining banter can occur between either friends or enemies.
It's not fun when both agents seriously hate each other, though. Crelmos and Teek, for example, just make me uncomfortable. Partly because Crelmos is actually evil. >.< (To the author's credit, she recognized the problem and got Teek a new partner.)
~Neshomeh
The two agents can be at odds with each other and dislike each other, sure, but "hate" implies that they outright sabotage the other and belittle them, in my eyes. And that does not a comedy make.
This, honestly, where I got stumped at in the begining. How can arguing be funny? It requires that both particapants not hate each other, of course! Just merely dislike.
That, I guess, is why I had a huge problem with writing K at first.
-kA
For me, it depends on what kind of stories you're hoping to tell with the pair? Ollie and Marie were designed to kick butt and bicker, while a combination like Delkhii and Jesse were meant to be the comedically serious, deadpan types.
Contrasting dynamics work really well, especially if the pair in question deals with a wide range of badfic.
...and now they're best friends! With a little bit of healthy teasing, too, of course.
Eledhwen and Christianne alternate who’s sunshine and who’s grumpy (though most of the time people assume it’s Christianne because she’s the standard veteran snarker kind of agent). It’s incredibly dependent on the context, but it keeps the two balanced, and lets them help each other when the other really needs it — a calming influence when one gets into a homicidal rage, a helpful hand when one of them gets a PTSD flashback, etc.
Liu Siyuan is grumpy. Mostly. He does well with sunshine people, even if most of the time he’s complaining about them.
The Disentangler and the Agent are both varying shades of sunshine, but that’s because they’re Time Lords in the DIC and don’t really do much assassinating; they’re really here to see the Multiverse. Allow your character backstories to inform how they react to HQ and you’ll figure out the dynamic from there.
Enter the boke-tsukkomi dynamic. It's a kind of comedy in which one side of the duo makes silly statements and actions (boke) and the other constantly acting annoyed and making correcting statements, sometimes resorting to mild violence (tsukkomi). It can play out in a PPC setting; say, an agent's life is hard enough exposed to cringe without having to keep shouting at their common sense-deficient partner as well.
You need to remember what Agents do and how to do it. Their job is to make the reader laugh, and the way to do it is to have them contrast just enough to where they bicker hilariously, but not so much that they wouldn't realistically work together.
Examples: Jock and the nerd, rookie and the veteran, by-the-book and devil-may-care operators. The crazy one and the "sane" one.
You need to keep in mind that these should be characters more than just one trait or they'll get tired quickly.
Let's follow an example, my own Agents (who have yet to appear in a Mission yet - but I'm drafting it now so that I can post it immediately once I get permission.)
Noman is the veteran, the jock, the by-the-book one, and whether he's insane or not is a gigantic mystery. He's far more clued into the weirdness of the PPC than his partner and can roll with it easily. He tends to deliver the punchlines of jokes. He introduces Winfrey to the world.
Winfrey is the nerd, the rookie, the devil-may-care unorthodox operator, and whether she's insane or not is utterly baffling. She relentlessly attempts to systemize and understand everything as a scientist. She usually serves as punchline fodder and the audience often experiences the world through her eyes.
Examples my style thus far are in the Hunger Games thread, where Winfrey relentlessly systemizes objects and bores everyone to tears around her (often getting interrupted for the sake of a gag), and Noman blames nebulous forces for things not going his way (oftentimes blaming it for the sake of comedy). Another example is in my Permission slip, where Noman introduces Winfrey to the PPC, and Winfrey's attempts at rationalizing it blow up in her face - sometimes literally.
Remember! They must not be too similar because if they are, their reactions to the badfic will be identical and you'll just repeat the punchline.
I'll just tack on that it also helps for the agents to have somewhat different interests and priorities, too. Having them be familiar with all the same continua denies you the opportunity to have one agent explain things to the other as a way to clue in the reader to an important point of canon. Giving them all the same priorities (e.g., SPaG, favorite character, plot devices) makes their snark indistinguishable and denies opportunities for bickering—and agent bickering is especially useful in situations where there's more than one valid interpretation of something and you, the author, ought not take a side.
Hence, in my teams, Nume (the veteran) is more of a stickler for mechanics and Ilraen (the rookie) is more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an awkward turn of phrase; Derik (duty-bound) is more broadly forgiving but judges by the book, while Gall (there for fun) doesn't sweat the small stuff but judges by personal opinion. I'm fond of the bicker they have in this mission over whether a Phantom of the Opera Sue's variety of outfit-matching masks are an insult to canon and good taste or not.
I also like it when the agents have more going on in their lives besides snarking at badfic, since that makes them more three-dimensional characters than author mouthpieces. The example that springs most readily to mind for me is Trojie and Pads, with the arc of Pads wooing Trojie woven lightly into their spin-off. Ix and Charlotte (mentioned below) have a similar arc. ... I suppose Derik and Gall do, too, though I'd say theirs is a bit more screwed up. ^_^;
You certainly don't need your agents' arc(s) to be romantic, though; for example, Rina/the Aviator's arc is about dealing with trauma, losing yourself, and finding yourself again. And you don't need to have that much of an arc, either. I think there's a happy medium where the events of earlier missions affect the agents in later missions, and there's character growth, but the episodes generally maintain their focus on providing entertaining commentary about a badfic. See: My spin-off recommendations. {= )
~Neshomeh
I'm considering having one agent who absolutely HATES Mary Sues and another who'd rather reform them. Thoughts on that concept? (Though that's not all to either's personality)
The obvious way would be an argument over whether to kill, recruit, or integrate a Suvian into the canon. Which is great... once. Maybe twice, if it has a very different outcome. But I'm not sure one* could sustain it every mission.
*Pretty sure I couldn't, but it's your concept and I don't know about you. Hence, 'one'.
hS
I might have the sympathetic Agent (Mina) try to convince the Sue to join them as a recruit, for each fic, after the charge list is read. (And if it only works a few times, then I can always [to a point] create more Agents.) My idea was, as a former Sue herself, she always feels bad for any Sues they kill.
It gets repetitve, even with new agents every time. Granted, there are ways of shuffling it around (perhaps your sympathetic agent can argue that a Sue isn't affecting canon one mission and the next mission argue that the Sue was forced into this by whatever her circumstances where), but those ways can get boring. Fast. No matter the agent.
Also, it rubs me the wrong way with "I can always make a new pair of agents when this gets old." Probably because I think this way under some circumstances (I acknowledge that, if I mess up too badly with a pair, I can always create a new pair as a "clean slate" of sorts.), but this reason is small and way too small of a reason to abandon a pair of agents, in my thoughts (although this is coming from a person with two agent pairs and is about to shuffle some agents away and make a third pair so that a funny agent dynamic can be introduced). It's too small of a reason to abandon agents for a new pair if one main tatic ia getting boring. Shuffle it up! Make an agent experience character growth. Maybe, just as the unsympathic person sees why Sues could be saved, the sympathic one sees why they shouldn't and they switch. And then acknowledge said switch. That could actually be quite funny!
So, you shouldn't rely on the fact that you can make a new agent pair when one tatic gets old, because it usually stays old and is such a small reason to abandon a pair of agents.
-kA
(Please note that this is an opinion. I am not angry, either. I'm just throwing in my two cents as I see it. You can take it if you'd like.)
Also, I keep forgetting about the character cap in titles lol.
-kA
There should indeed be more than just that, of course. (I'm thinking of making one of the Agents Fourth Wall-aware to the point of blaming everything bad on me, for example) - Ls
But yeah, I suppose you're right. I was including "shuffle the Agents around" in "create more". Since, after all, I was saying that of pairs, not Agents. And yeah, I should have included character growth as well. And yeah, I'd like to have different ways of making it funny. I'd certainly like to have more than just one pair of Agents. And I like your "switch" idea. That'd make a great character arc. (Note to self: write clearer posts!)
Thanks for the concrit.
I'll take those two cents. See if I can buy anything with them.
No hard feelings at all.
They work well together. Most comedy, thusly, comes from the badfic/reactions to the badfic.
Opposites (not necessarily exact opposites). This pair tends to more rely on the agents bickering with each other as well as badfic reactions.
An example of number 1 is Ix and their partner (who's name I do not trust myself to spell in this half-asleep state). An example of nunber 2 is Derik and Earwig.
Those are the two that most agents pairs fall into, to my knowledge, and tend to work the best. Number 2 is good if you can write arguements funnily, but if you can't, then number 1 is your best choice.
-kA, who is half-asleep and apologies in advance in case typos appear.