Subject: If it’s worth anything, I did try to shut down the off-board discussion
Author:
Posted on: 2022-09-30 12:29:48 UTC
It was uncomfortable, but it wasn’t very extensive. I’m going to avoid talking about it any more here; I’m not the best equipped to discuss it. I’m also not sure how to get the screenshots up here, and it’s very late where I am.
Hey guys, gals, and assorted others. I'm Crazy Minh, and while some of you may not remember me, I've been in the community for a fair few years. I've just gotten back from a lengthy hiatus, and I'm ready to get back to being part of this community.
Unfortunately, the subject matter of this post is not as savoury as a "welcome back". I've been a part of the Library of the Damned riffing community for about as long as I've been in the PPC. I've gotten a fair few guest riffs published over there, and I've been a regular commentator there for at least five or six years. I also operate a blog where I occasionally post content, but often forget about for months on end.
One of the users here, Linstar, decided- not two hours ago- to post a rather aggressively phrased comment on my blog, the screencap of which can be found in the Generic Salt channel on the PPC Discord (I'm not sure how to upload images here, and my image hosting accounts are kinda dead in the water). To quote his message word for word:
"Say, are you still around, either here, or at the Library? I really hope not."
If it wasn't for the fact that he also commented on the Library and mentioned he was in the PPC, I would not have payed any attention to this rather aggressive remark.
Linstar, mate, I don't know you. I have no beef with you, and I have no clue what your issue with me is. I'm willing to be diplomatic about this, as I'm more confused than offended. I would however like to raise this issue with the community, as this is very unacceptable behavior.
Regards,
Crazy Minh
(Psst: are you from Vietnam by any chance?)
The name has nothing to do with my nationality or ethnicity. It’s a demi-reference to a very obscure series of sci-fi novels called Spinward Fringe.
That was not what I meant. I did not mean to say “not”, I meant to say “so”.
I am very, very, sorry for that. I did not meant say that. I want to interact with you both here and at the Library.
I did not mean to type that. It was a very unintentional mistake.
Many apologies,
—Ls
I was something like 50% sure it was a mistake of some kind, so no hard feelings.
I was concerned though, since I’ve been getting a lot of threatening messages from someone over on Fanfiction over a riff I did on the Library. A few of my stories were mass reported and taken down for false reasons (a sockpupper user then messaged me and gloated that he’d reported me for paedophilia and that my stories would be taken down, and other juvenile nonsense like that) . I got a review lambasting my work while attacking me for riffing badfics. I was rather worried you were possibly involved in that.
I apologise for jumping to the worst (and ultimately wrong) conclusion, Linstar. Again, no harm done, it’s all good
I’m sorry for sounding like whatever jerk is reporting you. I’m glad I was able clear this up. And I don’t blame you for getting upset.
—Ls
If that message was typed on mobile, Linstar may have been using the . . . I don't know the term, but the suggested words that appear above the keyboard? Typing in "I really hope" might have brought up both "not" and "so" as suggestions for the next word. "I really hope so" would make a lot more sense in context. If they were next to each other, Linstar may have hit the wrong one and not realized before hitting post. Which, this is a writing community, we should always be reading back before we post (I initially wrote "siggested" up above), but it's a simple mistake. That feels more likely to me than random aggression with no further explanation.
—doctorlit
And had I seen this earlier, I would have responded sooner.
I’m so sorry, Minh.
—Ls
...then again, I was a bit of a butt when I first joined. I'd like to think I've gotten over that whole sordid business.
Because I’m rather curious as to what you mean.
That said, full explanation:
I was wandering on the PPC wiki, when I found Herr Wozzeck’s userpage, which had a link to the Library. I went down the rabbit hole, read a lot of the sporkings, including Herr’s of Harry Potter becomes a Communist, which, as you can see, I reported to the Board.
Anyway, I saw that someone else had commented a couple days ago about whether the Library was active. I decided to do so too. I then saw that you were the latest registered commenter, so I decided to contact you to ask if you were around. Unfortunately, I didn’t proofread what I sent...and here we are.
Hope that explains everything.
Still Sorry,
—Ls
I really don’t like people talking behind my back.
Also, Minh, I’d like to say again that I’m sorry.
—Ls
It was uncomfortable, but it wasn’t very extensive. I’m going to avoid talking about it any more here; I’m not the best equipped to discuss it. I’m also not sure how to get the screenshots up here, and it’s very late where I am.
I really want to see this.
I've dropped a note in Discord suggesting this would be a good idea.
~Neshomeh
My issue was over a post further down on the board. Neshomeh asked you to stop and you continued and Scape asked you to stop. You then replied with a rather passive aggressive comment and never apologized for it. My issue isn’t with the initial passive aggressiveness, it’s the fact you never bothered to apologize. My apologies for talking on the discord, I should have addressed this with you personally.
It was this thread.
A little birdie (who may or may not choose to reveal themselves) sent me a screenshot of your Discord info.
In that thread, I felt that Scape was being passive aggressive as well, and responded in kind. I also felt that I was saying something different in the reply to Nesh, and it wasn’t the same. I didn’t want to blow it up into a big mega-drama. Which has happened anyway.
So that's why I never replied.
—Ls
I think we've now seen ample evidence that people here can be trusted to speak for themselves when asked to. Please don't tattle on people behind their backs. It's underhanded and rude.
To Linstar: Since I was in that thread, I'll say my piece on this:
First, someone else behaving badly is never an excuse for you to also behave badly.
Second, I also felt that you were pushing to continue the discussion about Legendaries despite two people telling you it was a bad idea, and furthermore, you'd just tried to argue with me using my own words from six years ago, as though my opinion isn't allowed to evolve over that much time. I didn't appreciate that, and the only reason I didn't say something is that Scape already had and I didn't want to dog-pile you. From where I sit, Scape was not in the wrong. In hindsight, please be aware that she saved you from getting a non-passively angry scolding by me. {= P
~Neshomeh
I don’t think you’ve got what the “little birdie” did. They sent me screenshots of people talking about me on Discord...which would be behind my back. So...they were speaking for themselves.
Yes, I agree with your first statement. Bad behavior does not more bad behavior excuse. I’m sorry for that.
Well, as I saw it, I was trying to change my “Let’s go over all the Legendaries!” to “What about these two, one of which no longer even exists?”, since Scape had rightfully pointed out the grandfathered-in bit of the Legendary article.
I don’t think I expressed that perfectly, but it felt as if I Scape couldn’t tell the difference.
I also felt that rather than getting a link to the thread where you all agreed that we should keep even the unLegendariest Legendaries or something, got a “shut up, I already told you not to”. I would have liked a specific response to my specifically different post. And frankly, I still wouldn’t have done anything if I’d gotten zero response to the second post.
—Ls, trying to be clearer
Still some words missing, but I think I get the gist.
I'm sorry, but I don't see a significant difference between your posts. To sum up the conversation as I see it:
Linstar: I want to rehash the status of all the Legendaries.
Scape & Nesh: Let's not rehash the status of any Legendaries.
Linstar: What about rehashing the status of these two Legendaries?
Scape: We already clearly said "let's not rehash the status of any Legendaries." The answer is still no. You should not have needed to be told again.
Nesh: [Agrees and therefore doesn't feel a need to add anything, especially while angry.]
So, I feel Scape's response was both in-logic and warranted, since you had not gotten the message the first time around.
Also, neither of us was obligated to provide a link to some other thread to back ourselves up. We had expressed our current thoughts on the matter, and those do not need to be supported with evidence. Frankly, that's ridiculous. No means no. You do not get to demand supporting arguments for anyone's decision to say "no," even if they once said "yes" six years ago. This is a far-reaching and very important concept to understand.
~Neshomeh
I failed to back up my arguments much. I can see how you'd see it as that.
I should have mentioned something along the lines of “One of the fics is no longer on the internet, and has only been referred to once on the Board as a well-known fic.”
But I didn’t. So I can understand why you got that.
—Ls
Since I was in the original Board thread being discussed here, I feel comfortable coming into this conversation thread.
Your problem wasn't the arguments you were using, it was you not taking no for an answer. This is something that, despite your really quite snide assertion to the contrary in the thread itself, you do not seem to fully comprehend. I offer as evidence the post to which this is a reply. Now, I'm autistic, so I know that there's an impulse when being asked not to talk about something to assume the problem is with the logic used, but really people just... didn't want to talk about what you wanted to talk about. Not every thread is going to take off, and the Board is a quiet place in general, so please don't take silence as the assumption that you just haven't been loud enough.
You are not owed a discussion. You are not owed an audience. You are owed respect and courtesy, which is why I am now, respectfully and courteously, asking that you understand in future that the word "No" is not the start of a conversation, it is the end. This is because just as you are owed respect and courtesy, so is everyone else, and if they don't want to be a part of your discussions, it is impolite to try and railroad them into it.
For reasons of disclosure, I have run this post past another Boarder (Grundleplith of this parish) prior to posting it here. It is not for the purposes of talking about you behind your back, but for reasons of my own tone not necessarily being what I might think it is at time of writing. This is something that I do when I feel it's warranted due to my own history of poor behaviour in the community. I have serious issues with anger management and I have to fight to control them every second of every day, and I am constantly conscious of backsliding into being a person I regret ever having been. Grundleplith and I are both happy to share logs of the private discussion we had regarding this post upon request from relevant parties.
I don’t agree with your logic here—just because you said “no” doesn’t mean I can’t try to change your mind. But neither does it require that you reply. My counterargument doesn’t invalidate your saying “no”.
I think it’s reasonable to try to clarify one’s logic in such cases, but that doesn’t force people to respond.
I can’t make people discuss things. I can try and change their opinions, but that doesn’t mean I’m owed a reply. No one had to reply or read any of what I was saying. I don’t see how posting my own opinion is forcing people to be my audience.
Frankly, I don’t have any problem with you having used Grundleplith (who I have never interacted with, not that it’s particularly relevant) to beta your Board post expressing your opinion. It isn’t a discussion of my behavior, so it would be quite unreasonable of me to demand the transcript, though I thank you for your full disclosure.
—Ls, Not Angry
PS: which definition of railroad were you trying to use?
And I find it troubling that you don't seem to grasp that not stopping when being (as we saw it) clearly asked to stop is a valid cause for concern.
Also, do you honestly not understand the meaning of "to railroad" in this context, where there's really only one definition that fits? I ask because, rather than phrasing your question in terms of you not understanding, you chose a phrasing that reads like you're questioning Scape's faculty with words. Either way is not a good look for you, but the latter would be quite the passive-aggressive insult.
~Neshomeh is getting angry.
I regret having said it, it was unnecessary, and unhelpful.
And I don’t think we’re going to get any resolution with this, no matter how many times we rephrase things.
I really think it’s best to let the matter drop.
—Ls
Do you get why seeming not to understand it is a valid cause for concern?
~Neshomeh
I just don’t think it applies in these circumstances.
Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but - as I pointed out - I have serious anger management issues, so after reading your response I needed to step away from this thread before I said anything that would jeopardise my recovery. Anyway: I don't quite know how to explain the idea of No Meaning No to you in simpler terms than I already have, since despite your claims to the contrary you clearly do not grasp the concept, or at least that it applies even when you personally might not want it to do so.
I'm not okay with leaving this alone. While this conversation might be going in circles, that's your problem, because you're the one who - by their own admission - is refusing to understand what you're doing wrong and why it isn't conduct becoming of a PPC member. There is perhaps a little irony in belabouring this point as much as we are given the subject at hand, but community conduct rules are something we take pretty seriously around here. Where else has a Constitution these days, after all, that they actually bother to enforce? =]
You mentioned the Constitution, but not which Article you believed I violated. Were you referring to Article Four, which states:
“4. The community will not tolerate any form of harassment between members of the PPC, whether it manifests as attacking, bullying, or pestering. Respect people's personal boundaries just as much as you do everything else about them. This rule particularly includes interactions outside of PPC community spaces: harassing someone by email is just as serious as doing so in public, if not more so, and will be treated as such. If you find yourself being harassed or bullied by another PPCer, please make the community aware! We cannot help with a situation if we don't know it exists.” ?
I would argue that telling people that they’re not allowed to respond to you doesn’t count as a personal boundary, but rather an imposition on them. At least, when the subject is one of public debate.
As for “that’s your problem”, you are saying, as it appears to me, that my problem is not agreeing with your characterization of my actions.
—Ls
However, you're walking up to the line on Articles 11 and 12, which I'd sum up in brief as "If multiple people tell you to stop doing a thing, you should probably stop," and "Willful ignorance is not an excuse."
Scape and I told you rehashing the Legendaries was bad idea and explained why. You persisted in trying to rehash Legendaries. You were told again by Scape to stop. Note that this summary of the conversation is functionally the same as the one I gave above, which you agreed was a reasonable interpretation. Even if there was a misunderstanding, since you agreed that my interpretation of the conversation is valid, you also ought to agree that Scape's response was valid based on the principle of "no means no," yet you insist on arguing and being rude about it. That's why we don't believe you when you say you grasp the principle. If you do, you should by now see the logic we're taken pains to explain to you, and not continue to argue about it.
Furthermore, I've noticed that you've been more rude to Scape than to me, even though we're making much the same points. That is not okay, and it gets less okay the longer it goes on. If you fail to recognize that, we are going to have an Article 4 problem, so please consider this your formal notice to knock it off and reconsider your position before you dig the hole deeper.
I'm not sure where you're getting "telling people that they're not allowed to respond to you." Nobody has done that at any point that I'm aware of. However, for the record, Scarlett is quite correct that if you are told by an individual not to continue talking to them, that is a personal boundary that must be respected, and failing to do so would count as harassment.
~Neshomeh
I suppose I should have responded to the original post instead. I was interpreting what you were saying as that I wasn’t allowed to discuss Legendaries whatsoever.
So... sorry for that, and being rude to Scape.
—Ls
Someone asking you not to respond to them is a personal boundary and a pretty big one too. And would you please stop with the passive aggressive comments? I don’t know if it’s just me being over sensitive to people being passive aggressive but it really is starting to irritate me.
Scarlett is trying not to interfere but is getting annoyed
I think it depends on the subject. If it is clearly something personal, I agree wholeheartedly.
Otherwise? It depends, honestly. If it’s important enough values-wise, I definitely say you should respond.
I do think that I didn’t quite see what Nesh was saying in the initial thread as this as much, which is probably on me. I should responded either to Scape or the original thread.
Also, Scarlett, if it was you that brought this up in the Discord with Minh, as I suspect, please email me next time about something you feel is unresolved. It’s rather rude to badmouth others behind their backs.
—Ls
But I’ll say that I’m sorry I brought that up, I should have looked over the thread again. It very rude of me, and I regret it.
I am done speaking with you.
I'm guilty of having a knee-jerk reaction to the phrasing "a screenshot of your Discord info." That sounds to me like contact or personal information, which has no business being shared without someone's permission, especially behind the scenes by an anonymous person who may or may not be acting in good faith.
I also don't love the idea of anyone going around reporting on other members' activities, anonymously or not. I do agree that it's not okay to gossip about people behind their backs, but I generally* include telling second-hand tales of "so-and-so said thus-and-such about you!" in that category. That's why I wanted to facilitate an actual conversation between you and kA and Scarlett instead, so you could all clear the air with each other and avoid building up more and more assumptions based on hearsay and echo-chamber-say.
* With exceptions: I need to know what people are saying if I've harmed them and need to make amends, or if they're saying things that will harm me and I need to be safe.
That said, I was wrong to suggest that you shouldn't be told the exact words that were said about you once the matter was brought to your attention. I didn't exactly mean that—I meant it shouldn't have been done in that shadowy, possibly doxxing-y way—but I've been reliably informed that it seemed otherwise. Also, in this particular instance, I believed no one was trying to hurt anyone else and so we could all trust each other to be honest once it was brought into the open, but that wasn't my call to make. I definitely let my ego interfere with my judgement, figuring everything was fine because it was me handling it. I'm sorry for that and for being overly interfering.
(Regarding the Legendaries thread, some of your sentences don't seem to have survived autocorrect intact, so I'm not entirely understanding you, and I'll hold off saying more about that.)
~Neshomeh
I felt that my second comment was different from the first, in scope and content, and that Scape ignored that difference.
Better?
—Ls
I will preface this by saying I’m not angry at you, Linstar, but I really dislike my information being shared without permission. The statement in question was asking Scape if she was ok with me asking you that because I had not been involved in the conversation prior to that. It was aimed to make sure she specifically was ok with it. So I really don’t view that as talking behind your back persay.
I don’t really know how Discord works, but I presume that for someone else to see it, your message to Scape would have to be public. In which case, I could’ve seen it if I were on the Discord. I’m not quite sure how that’s much different. In which case it was at least
I guess it wouldn’t really count as being about me, then? Is that what you’re saying?
I guess they could have asked you first, which would have been better. Right?
Not Mad at Scarlett, just a little confused,
—Ls
Because I was not sure if Scape likes being DMed as she’s on Do Not Disturb. No, it was not about you, it was checking to make sure I hadn’t stepped in where I wasn’t wanted (which believe me, I’ve done before). Yes, it would have been better if they’d asked. We have gone over this on the Discord.
Perhaps they’ll have more to say. I don’t.
Still Not Angry,
—Ls
As those on the discord already know, I was the one who emailed Linstar and sent screenshots.
This is the exact email I sent, by the way, because I think using "discord info" may have been kind of deceiving. I've not included the screenshots because privacy, but have summarised them and uh if the people included want me to delete those, I can. Here. No other personal info was shared, and you cannot find someone's discord account based of a server nickname.
It was wrong to do, and I think I knew that at the time, but I didn't want to know it.
In my head, I rationalised it as "In the interest of full clarity", but yeah, looking back at it, sending a private email without any warning, agreement, etc etc, was not something that made anything more clear and did not help at all. It was done with no intention to harm, at least, that much I can say.
In reality, I think it may have been because "if they're talking about Linstar behind their back, what if they're talking about me behind my back??", and I thought that if I sent that to Linstar then if they saw me being talked about, they'd tell me and that way I'd have like a- back up measure. This is also bad and illogical reasoning, honestly, but that's what I felt.
And some of those screenshots (especially the first one) weren't even, as Scape said, really talking behind Linstar's back, and that does make me feel more guilty.
Sharing those messages was an nffhole move, I agree. I shouldn't have done it, and I know that much. I didn't think my actions through fully, and by doing that I've made kA leave, upset many people, made some people uncomfortable, and I'm genuinely, really sorry for that. Definitely not something I'm ever going to be doing again, that much is clear. I didn't mean to hurt anyone, but I did, and if there's any way I can make it up to any of you, I will.
I wasn't in a good headspace to write a response yesterday, which is why this is coming today, after I've had time to properly think it over and come to terms with what I did.
I will be better, and I will learn from this.
Seeing as you're an actual known member, I believe you had good intentions, and like I said above, I do agree that Linstar had a right to know the exact details of what was going on. Having seen the conversation myself, though, I thought in this instance that the issue(s) could best be resolved by getting the involved parties talking to each other rather than for people to continue talking around each other.
I confess I don't understand worrying about people talking behind my back—it's just not something I can personally be bothered to spend precious energy on—but it certainly isn't something we want to tolerate in our community.
In general, I think the best way to handle it if you see people gossiping about someone else is just to tell them to stop. If there's something they need to discuss with the subject of the gossip, you can encourage them to do that, and even offer to mediate if you feel up for it. If they're just being nasty, that should definitely be raised with the mods—but I hasten to add I haven't seen anything really nasty take place. Most of what I've seen is socially anxious teenagers and young adults being bad at expressing negative feelings constructively. It takes practice. {= )
It's always okay to hold off on taking any action until you're in a good headspace.
Cheers,
~Neshomeh
Now, of course, I am terrible when it comes to interpreting tone from text, so if I misunderstood you, that 100% on me, Linstar.
But when you continued to email me after I said I was busy (before I said it was an unoffical pause) on the co-write came off as a bit aggressive. Again, I could be totally misunderstanding the situation (in which case, my error! I apologize!), but it made me not want to write the co-write a bit more.
I wish I could explain my feelings better, but today is not a good mental health day. I'm sorry!
-kA, not upset, just can't think.
I was worried that you weren’t interested. I’m sorry I came off as aggressive. I, being not on the Discord, also didn’t see any of the things you were talking about, and was worried that you weren’t PPC-ing anymore. I’m sorry I came off that way, it wasn’t my intention.
—Ls
Here it is:
(Discord is handy in that you can link to images you upload there.)
So, Linstar: Was this, in fact, you?
~Neshomeh
So, little known fact about Wordpress is that comments have the IP address logged for site admins to look at. The email I screenshotted included an IP address for Linstar that he used when he supposedly posted on my blog. There are two ways we can check to see if it really is him:
No idea about the board's backend, but if the mods are able to view IP addesses, I'd be happy to privately message over the one recorded in the email so it can be checked against Linstar's. I censored it out of a desire to not dox Linstar, as that would be significantly worse than making an aggressive comment. If there is doubt, though, I would be happy to send it over.
The Library also has a post from a user by the name of Linstar who claims to be part of the PPC community. It is a simple task to ask Bats, or one of the other mods there to check the IP address. If it matches, then it is probable that both users are the same individual, and that there is evidence that it is indeed Linstar.
IP addresses are as good as fingerprints when it comes to identifying users. The only way it could be someone else is if Linstar was coincidentally using the same network as the offending party, and therefore was routing all traffic through a single shared address. This is also suspect, because that implies that Linstar just so happened to be in the same place as the person using his username to attack a member of a community with ties to the community Linstar regularly participates in.
...
Apologies if that was confusing, I've had four hours of sleep, currently functioning solely on the power of caffeine.
That email address was one that I wouldn’t care about censoring, (you can find it by clicking my name), but thank you for doing so anyway.
Still sorry,
—Ls
And I was the one who commented on the Library as well.
As I have said elsewhere, I am very sorry. I did not mean to say that.
—Ls
Especially if the message was sent in error, as doc suggests above, it would be quite premature to start treating him like a troll.
That said, we HAVE had trolls impersonate Board members in attempts to stir up trouble before, so if Linstar says he didn't send that message (knowing it would be pointless to lie), we will certainly want to see if we can ID whoever did.
~Neshomeh