An introduction and important question (forgive me if this is the wrong place)

An introduction and important question (forgive me if this is the wrong place) by Smernathan Cronkerion on 2023-07-18 04:42:20 UTC Introduction Serious business

Yep, you're in the right place. by Neshomeh on 2023-07-18 16:05:30 UTC Reply

Welcome! There's a Discord link in the thread below yours. I believe it's still active. If not, I'm sure Maslab or another mod will drop you a new one soon.

Regarding a distasteful PPC story or wiki article (I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "writing sample"), feel free to tell us about it here.

~Neshomeh

Thank You. by Smernathan on 2023-07-18 16:32:26 UTC Permission request Reply

Hello Neshomeh. Thank you very kindly for your response. Unfortunately, it appears the aforementioned invite link was set to expire 12 hours after posting, and the time has already elapsed.

I eagerly await a new invite link.

As for the distasteful story (this is what I refer to as writing sample), it goes by the title "Oliver Wood is not a Transvestite." Written in 2003 circa January, the mission is still featured under the Harry Potter wiki page. As a long time ally of the LGBTQ community and friend of many trans people I find the language used in the story to be offensive. Reasons include (but aren't limited to); - The CAD device's inability to conceive Oliver is trans in the story, thus referring to them as "manfemalemanfemalebagelfish" (paraphrased) - Upon revealing Oliver is trans to the targeted mary sue character, she panics and expresses a desire to kill herself (I believe such language is part of the community blacklist?) - The characters, besides the intended assassination, also seek to "correct" Oliver being transgender by setting him back to male.

I am unsure the proper protocol for handling such things, but it is my hope that you will agree with me such a story should not continue to be endorsed by being linked on your wiki (or anywhere else it might be).

Thank you again for your time.

There is an easy fix here. by Huinesoron on 2023-07-18 17:22:33 UTC Reply

First off, Smernathan, welcome to the Board, and thanks for flagging something you were concerned about! We can never improve things we haven't noticed.

Secondly, that's not a great PPC mission. Partly that's because it's very early, written only a year after the PPC was created. Partly it's because they latched onto one typo in the prologue and made it the centre of the story. Partly because it's just not that funny

Because I've just read it, and Oliver Wood was never meant to be trans. The badfic calls him "him" at every point - except a single typo in the prologue. It was the PPC writers who decided that meant Oliver was (physically transformed into) a girl throughout. "Transvestite" is used to mean a girl wearing boys' clothing, not someone who is transgender.

But it's a really obnoxious title in this day and age. Nesh, the mission is on your archive: do you think we can just change it to "Oliver Wood is Not a Girl"? Because, like... he's not, and the badfic writer never intended him to be. (There's also a single "transvestite" in the fic which can be swapped out the same way, though that might be more controversial.)

It still won't be a great mission, and the humour they found in "haha the Suvian is accidentally kissing a girl" isn't terribly entertaining, but at least it will be less obnoxious and more forgettable.

(One note: the Blacklist is for the Discord; it doesn't extend to missions and other writing. Similarly, the PG-13 rating of the Board doesn't apply to missions, extremely so in some cases.)

hS

We could, but I'm not sure it's the best way to address the issue. by Neshomeh on 2023-07-18 18:18:43 UTC Reply

Not because I disagree with the objections to the mission's choices—I do agree, they're bad—but because I don't think it's practicable to edit every archived mission that's found to contain language or sentiments we now object to. I know well enough this isn't the only one, and I'm sorry, but I can't let myself or anyone else here be held accountable for all possible exposure to discomfort someone may experience while reading old works.

What I will do is make a statement on the main page that the missions archived on The Lost Tales were written prior to the implementation of our current community standards, and may contain language or sentiments that we do not condone today. We preserve them to make an account of our history (spots and all), not to endorse anyone's views.

Might need a similar disclaimer somewhere visible on the wiki, too. Main page, Wiki Rules, and one or more of the FAQs, probably, since everyone ought to read at least one of those things.

At the end of the day, I'd rather we wear our mistakes on our sleeve than try to hide them or pretend they weren't so bad. They happened and we're not proud of them—but we DO try not to let the same mistakes happen again.

~Neshomeh

I suppose so? by Huinesoron on 2023-07-19 15:44:38 UTC Edited Reply

I still think there's a difference between potentially offensive content in the body of a mission, and plainly offensive titles. But you're the archivist. :)

A few months back I added something of the sort to my PPC page, focussing more on the fact that my older stories are a lot grumpier about writing errors, so I do get the concept. (Given that they're my own stories, I also cheerfully go back and edit them sometimes; but again, I see the difference.) I'm still not happy with that page/site design tbh, but I don't have any great ideas for fixing it.

hS

Is the title by itself offensive? by Neshomeh on 2023-07-19 20:40:25 UTC Reply

Really asking; I know these things change. But as of this post, I haven't heard that "transvestite" is automatically an offensive word. (E.g., Rocky Horror hasn't been canceled as far as I know.) I am aware that it's fallen out of favor, and "cross-dresser" is generally preferred—but maybe that serves as a useful warning that someone may not care to read that story?

~Neshomeh

In the situation provided, yes. by Smernathan on 2023-07-19 21:26:18 UTC Reply

At least in the view of my aforementioned trans friends, yes. The word itself is rarely used except as a slur now, but more importantly in the context of the mission it is being used to describe a character who, at least how the writer(s?) put it, is ostensibly transgender.

I believe this is a good idea. by Smernathan on 2023-07-18 19:59:11 UTC Reply

This seems like a sensible course of action, yes. It was my concern (as well as several of my friends) when discovering this that it may be emblematic of the community as a whole, so a disclaimer would be most welcome.

As a side note, I would still like an invite into your discord server. I do not wish to sound pushy, so please pardon me if I do. I just fear the request (the previous invite you mention had expired) might be lost in the conversation.

Thank you again. Smernathan wishes you all the best.

ask and ye shall receive by Thoth on 2023-07-19 20:03:15 UTC Reply

here is the invite link.

Apologies, we've had a troll problem in the past, so the link is set to expire fairly quickly. Let us know if it's too fast to expire for you.

Thank you again. by Smernathan on 2023-07-19 21:26:52 UTC Reply

Thank you very much.