Subject: Take a look at my reply to Phobos . . .
Author:
Posted on: 2011-06-17 14:41:00 UTC
I know it sounded like I was picking on you, and I genuinely wasn't. I do apologise for that, and I think you do a great job.
Have a cookie in recognition of your awesomeness.
Okay, so I'm going to post an official request. I've kinda figured it out, so I'm going to try. Anyways...
Agent Profiles
Name: Gretalis
Age: 26
Species: Gluttony Demon
Birthplace: Gluttony Circle of Hell
Appearence: White hair and brown eyes, tends to wear T-shirts and jeans. Is frequently seen in a "Don't Fear the Creeper" T-Shirt. Despite his origins, he's rather thin and muscular due to strict diet and exercise. Cacausian.
Bio: A demon from the gluttony circle of hell, he worked in minor corruption, planting a seed of darkness in the souls of his targets before the big guys came in to fully corrupt them. He was bored with his career. Then he discovered the PPC. He wanted to get in, but due to his large weight, he figured he wouldn't be let in. He went on a strict diet and exercise regimen, and applied. He now works with Sammy.
Favorite Fandoms: Homestuck, Adventure Time, Kingdom Hearts
Weapon of Choice: Lots of Knives
Name: Sammy
Age: 26
Species: Human
Birthplace: Nevada, Madness combat universe.
Appearence: Brown hair and dark blue eyes, usually wears suits, and he has glasses. Cacausian. Muscular due to his training as an assassin.
Bio: Worked as an assassin before discovering the PPC. He figured he could satisfy his bloodlust, as well as killing things no one would miss. He applied, and now works with Gretalis.
Favorite Fandoms: God of War, The Simpsons, Penny Arcade
Weapon of Choice: Rifles of any kind.
I'm just really confused. I need some time to get used to everything. Until then, I'll just stick around a bit, post here and there, etc. Okay?
Don't get scared off just because the system is so elaborately elitist. The PPC's fun once you get past that.
Your first agent makes me LOL. Is he based in a specific fandom? Brilliant.
If you disagree with how the system works, there are better avenues to express your opinion then passive aggressive insults.
. . . my intent were to change anything. But, having watched the evolution of Permission Giving from the day Jay left the board, I'm pretty confident we're well past the point of no return. So I am left to my passive aggression, alas.
Really? I'd honestly love to make things more... informal. And easier, and less elitist-feeling, too. The whole idea of power/authority/mod-type-stuff in the PPC really bothers me, and always has.
Do you have any better ideas? At all? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's uncomfortable with the idea (or feeling) of the PPC becoming elitist.
Way back when dinosaurs roamed the Board, the very first Permission Givers were very informal. If someone requested Permission, the PGs would do a quick check for serious systematic grammatical problems, maybe ask for a quick description of the proposed agents to be sure they weren't horrific 'Sues, and then they'd usually give Permission. I can only think of a few occasions where they turned someone down, and it was for enormous, glaring problems. And people weren't required to clock a certain number of hours before they were permitted to perform the sacred rite of Requesting Permission.
It wasn't an audition, it wasn't an initiation, it wasn't a huge deal. If you take a look at the guidelines Jay and Acy set up, they're light, concise, and completely non-threatening. Permission has now morphed far beyond that, in the hands of people who don't even own the universe.
But, I don't know that it does bother most new PPCers, since that's the dynamic they signed up for. I think it's probably here to stay, and so I watch from the sidelines, and try to keep my grumbling to a minimum.
I can't help but think that you're forgetting that the community has changed in scope and size.
The PPC now, in 2011, is far, far larger than it was in 2004, 2005, and so on. Even when I first joined up.
The PPC has become far more solid and evident; we're a larger group in more ways than just community size; we're not some tiny hole in the wall people can peek into while browsing in the Lord of the Rings fandom anymore. I know full well that most of the newer PPCers have nothing to do with that fandom; some of them don't even like the books (despite what the constitution says!) Goodness knows I can't remember the last mission that was written in LotR.
When a group gets larger, there are two choices to make; further structuralize and organize, or stay unregimented and risk the chance there are people who you don't know well enough- or at all- playing in the same playground as you who don't agree or respect that you and others are playing in it as well.
The charm of the PPC, when I first joined, was getting to know everyone and basically being able to go 'oh, hey, X is awesome, don't you think, Y?' and there wouldn't be any groping and flailing on Y's part to remember who X is or why they're awesome. In this last week, we've had five new people introduce themselves to the board, the last couple weeks have been absolutely innundated with permissoin requests, and then various questions, and a couple mission plugs.
I can't see the community for all the different people! The wild and varied conversations we used to have about all sorts of random things or fandom items are for the most part a thing of the past, and I miss those sort of conversations. The amount of people joining or asking small things has made it all but impossible to have extended conversations where we can learn more about each other.
As I understand it, the 'hey hang around for a month before you ask for permission' was an attempt for us to remain a community and stay a community, so we would know each other. But it's become increasingly hard to do that- even with regulation and the authority I know you don't want here- when the community outgrows itself.
To try and put it into a matter of simply 'back when I first joined' ignores all the factors that have changed, and that this isn't the same community as it used to be when I joined, which wasn't the same as the community that Vixenmage joined, and the community that she joined wasn't the same you joined.
This is almost exactly what I was going to say. The only difference being that I was going to go into a long, drawn out tangent about the Theatre. So you said it better. Well done.
As many of you know, I am actively involved in the Theatre. I am a member of a company that is just over 5 years old. In the beginning the entire operation was run by the couple that founded the company. As time went on they got other people involved and the company grew. It grew very fast. But it only grew fast in one dimension.
As far as the art went, the company was doing very well. However, if you looked at the finances and the company structure then we were falling far behind. Our artistic endeavors were out-pacing our ability to pay for it or organize ourselves to do it effectively. Things had to change.
So, we started to build the company structure up to a level where we could be useful. We added a Company Manager (me, in fact) whose job it is to keep track of everyone and make sure we are all working to make the company work. If people are not doing anything then it is my job to either get them to do it or come up with a punishment (either loss of privileges or asking them to leave the company). In this way, I make sure that everyone is working at a level that works for them and that we don't have dead weight. And that is allowing the company to grow further.
Now we have a problem. People who have been in the company from the beginning are starting to not like the changes that have happened. They long for the days when each person was allowed to work as much or as little as they pleased and trusted to contribute to the company. Some of these people have not been to a monthly meeting in the year and a half that I have been in the company. I still haven't met a few people. But they want things to go back to the way they were.
Problem: the way things were, we would have had to dissolve the company in the next six months or so due to lack of accountability and finances (which also suffered somewhat from the lack of accountability). The company was collapsing under its own weight.
All of this is just a long way of saying that as an entity grows, it needs more structure so that it can continue to grow and not implode.
I just cannot see the intersection between a financial entity, where people's real-life assets are at stake, and an internet community based on somebody else's writing. I simply cannot. The PPC is not that serious; it's a fandom. I know we like to say that quality in fanfic is enormously, unutterably important. But there was a time that we understood it actually isn't. It's just words on the internet. If somebody writes a slightly subpar PPC story, it doesn't actually hurt anyone.
Jay and Acy made a few rules, and it's good to keep those rules out of respect for them. But we've gone way beyond enforcing their requests, as the parents of the fandom, to enforcing our own concept of who the PPC should admit to its holy ranks.
And, while I don't think it was the original cause, I think the new style of PGing does directly contribute to keeping the Board as basically a log of newbies and Permission requests. The Board has become a vehicle for Permission, for approaching the shadowy cabal behind the PPC, and the community doesn't really exist anymore.
And I think the community is important. If not for the PPC community, I would live in a different country, wouldn't be married, and my son wouldn't exist. Communities can change people's lives, and it's a shame the PPC has decided to come down on the side of purifying the ranks of internet writers for the sake of High Art, rather than the side of promoting a community.
But as I said, I believe most PPCers nowadays are happy with the state of affairs, so I'm honestly not trying to affect change. I'm just a crotchety old woman waving her cane and grumbling about kids these days.
Have you read the bit below where we're talking about what we can do differently/better to lighten up? Do you have any suggestions to that effect? We'd like to hear them. It's not really fair to say "what you guys are doing contributes to the problem!" without suggesting what would be better to do instead. Like concrit. Can we have some? We like it here.
On a personal note, I think the community is important, too. I've been here a long time, and I miss it. If I've unwittingly become a shadowy caballer who's systematically killing it, I am personally interested in quitting whatever language or attitude or whatever is causing it as soon as possible. However, I'll need some examples of things I've actually said or done to know what to avoid, because as far as I know I've never "purified the ranks," and I suspect the other PGs probably feel the same way. I'm really trying to be constructive here, and I'd appreciate the same from you.
~Neshomeh
I know it sounded like I was picking on you, and I genuinely wasn't. I do apologise for that, and I think you do a great job.
Have a cookie in recognition of your awesomeness.
Thanks for that, I was worried. {= ) *hugs*
As far as carrying on with what works, the horse seems to have left the barn, so I think I'll carry on trying to improve. For instance, I never knew what Jay and Acacia actually said regarding permission—I got here just after Jay left, I think—so if that's a quote (or near paraphrase, even) I'd like to incorporate it into whatever rewriting happens.
Also for instance. Capitalizing "permission." It's a simple little thing, and I'm fond of it, but perhaps it needs to go. Only really important things get capitalized.
~Neshomeh
I took that from Miss Cam's site, here. And just tried to follow the link back to the Board and noticed it was broken -- wonder if Miss Cam still updates that site at all.
It's been years since I was really active in the PPC, and I still reflexively capitalise 'Permission' more often than not. True story. The PPC has warped my mind in many ways. But that is a fair point -- I suppose it could seem a bit intimidating or whatnot.
Anyway, let me apologise again for triggering this whole thing. I do think it's time for me to take a big step back from the discussion and leave it to the lovely people who actually contribute to the PPC nowadays. Cheers, all. xx
Particularly when we get trapped in our own habits. This was the system that was up and running when I joined, so I never really noticed it getting more formal, but now that it's pointed out, I wonder how I could have missed it. Different perspectives are very valuable.
Obviously there are differences between a theatre company and an online community. However, I think my point still stands. Both entities require structure in order to grow in any useful way.
Also, as far as the Board being a log or newbies and Permission requests, how do you mean that PGing style directly contributes to it? The PGs aren't causing people to join the Board in large numbers, nor are they causing Permission requests to be posted. That is all on the people posting and I don't think there is any way to stop that. The Permission Givers are doing the best they can in the situation.
The community. Yeah, it doesn't really exist on the Board anymore. I completely agree. However, there is a link at the top of the Board to the IRC channel. I don't know if you have been in there or not, but it is now filling the community role that the Board used to. I would check it out, if you haven't already.
One last point: Where is everyone getting this language from? "Holy ranks" "purifying the ranks of internet writers for the sake of High Art" I don't get any of this from the PPC. Where are you seeing this? Give me some examples.
Both entities require structure in order to grow in any useful way.
Well, I do disagree. Fandoms have been moving themselves along for decades. The PPC is only different because the creators were actively involved, and some of us knew them personally. So there is a greater sense of obligation towards them . . . but at the end of the day, it's just a fandom like any other. It doesn't need to be tightly controlled and centralised to survive.
Obviously my last post was a bit hyperbolic. I don't really think of the PPC as a cult, and I also don't actually use a cane. ;) However, the movement from the original requests -- use our gadgets, use our naming structure, run a spell check -- to a month-long personal audition is a leap. If someone can communicate clearly, their Agents pass the sniff test, and they've read a few good missions, they deserve Permission. Even if they don't want to participate in the community at all, and you'll remember I'm a big fan of the community.
I should clarify that I don't think it's the fault of the PGs themselves*, they're all fabulous (Neshomeh particularly, please don't feel I was picking on you because you were the PG involved in this thread. I wasn't -- I only posted here because one of the proposed agents caught my eye. You know I think you're great. ♥) I'm only criticising the process.
The IRC isn't a great fit for me. I have to grab brief moments of internet in between running around after an eleven-month-old, so a forum is the only option. Sadness.
Anyway, I didn't mean to spark a huge thread (sorry Bluesunnyday). I don't have a horse in this race, I've had Permission for nearly a decade, and obviously it's been ages since I was active in the community I so loudly champion. My opinion really isn't relevant, so honestly, carry on doing what works for the PPC of today.
*Except that hS guy. I don't trust him. Have you seen his collection of hats? :-0
But regardless of how many or few rules there are for permission, you still agree that there should be a permission process? It would still eat up board space, and as Neshomeh says, the rules are stringent mostly in name only, since she almost never rejects requests.
Your opinion is important, whether anyone agrees with it or not. You have been around longer than most of us today and that is something to respect.
A few points before I go back to work:
1)Fandoms do grow on their own without structure. That is true. That is also where we get Sues, though, and I believe we are against Sues in our fandom, yes? So in order to have a fandom where Sues and other forms of bad writing are discouraged we need standards. In order to enforce those standards we need a group with some manner of control. The standards are what make us different from other fandoms.
2) Hyperbole is fine, but it seemed to have taken on a life of its own. You were not the only person I saw talking like this is a cult and the PGs are the shadowy figures pulling the strings. Hyperbole can be taken too far.
3) The rule about being around for a month is more like a guideline. That is how I have always heard it used. "Hang around so we can get to know you. That usually takes about a month."
4) The IRC doesn't work for everyone. I include myself in that number. I am an infrequent user, at best. But this has at least sparked some discussion about Boarders and Chatters and how to bridge the gap (read Nesh's post down the thread).
5) I have never seen someone with as many hats as hS. How does he do it?
Again, your opinion is important and without this discussion we would not be talking about possible ways to change things. It is when you keep quiet about the things that you feel are not right that we have problems. We had at least one respected member of the community that kept quiet until it was too late to change anything quickly enough and they ended up leaving. I don't want to see that to happen again.
We can't change things unless we know they need changing. And we don't know that they need changing until we talk about them.
I certainly agree the PPC should have standards. But if it were up to me, I would probably empahsise the need for thoughtful, high-quality concrit after publication, rather than emphasising the preventative measures beforehand. The PPC could meet newbies where they are, help them improve, and it would feel more inclusive. But then I know how hard it is to dredge up concrit sometimes. There are no perfect solutions, really.
My hyperbole did run away with me, and I'm sorry for that. I promise I don't really believe it. But it's not often I get to use the phrase 'shadowy cabal', so I saw my chance and seized it.
Re: #5 -- it's my opinion that he has a matching collection of heads. :-0 :-0 :-0
Anyway, as I said to the lovely Neshomeh, I honestly don't think this is my conversation. I'm just not involved enough to make well-informed suggestions. So I will bow out now. You've been very gracious, despite my wild hyperbole. Cheers again.
On the one hand, I would really want that to come back. I hate the idea of the PPC becoming formal and bureaucratic and red-tape-draped and "Fill out this form, then wait the requisite X amount of time," and so on. I even hate all the back-and-forth sniping that often seems to go on about the canon and the wiki and the constant "So, in this specific situation, how do I handle this as a writer?" questions, because it seems like everyone's terrified to step on the toes of the Almighty Precedent. And I know I've contributed to that, and I wish it wasn't so.
But on the other hand, back in the day, the PPC was a little tiny corner under a little tiny trapdoor in a corner of the LotR fandom, and a handful of others. Now, we've got our own bloody TvTropes page, all attempts at cleaning of which get filed under "censorship" or "whitewashing," so yay them. I worry that if we tried to be more informal, we'd wind up inundated with badfic ourselves, as well as even more This Is Srs Bsns types. Maybe I'm just paranoid, though.
I dunno. What does everyone/anyone else think? I doubt there's only two people in the community with an opinion, here.
I personally like the current Permission system. I mean, I was rejected the first time I asked, which forced me to get a beta, hang around here more, read more spinoffs and generally get familiar with what people do in the PPC. that way, I was much more serious and put a lot more effort into my stuff once I had permission. I guess what I'm saying is I like the fact it requires potential writers to think of the ability to write in this setting as a privilege, and encourages them to put serious effort into their missions. Also, I found my way here from TVTropes.
The only real flaw I see with permission is the limited number of ACTIVE permission givers. Of the top of my head, I can think of four who are active in the IRC and one who is only active on the board, out of a list that is much longer than that. This means that there can be a "long" (several day) wait between requesting and being granted permission. This may just be my generally impatient nature speaking though, and not an actual flaw.
is all exciting and shiny like a Permission request.
I don't know that it is always so absolutely strict and serious. I signed up last February, posted several things on the Board and chatted on the IRC. Basically, I participated in the group. When I put together a Permission request (two weeks later), yes, I did get the caveat that I need to be sure to use a grammar beta (which I always do), but Permission was granted.
I think the waiting period has much more to do with joining the community and participating than with a set amount of time. One month seems to have been settled on hoping that it will encourage people to join in.
Listening to various PGs talk, usually the single biggest complaint they have with Permission Requests is having no idea who the person is. It really doesn't matter if you introduced yourself in November of 2010, if here in June of 2011 that was the only time anyone has heard from you then we have no more idea who you are than we do the person who introduced themselves yesterday.
Maybe we could find a way of re-wording it to put more emphasis on participation and less on a specific amount of time.
Perhaps also make it clear that the IRC does count as part of the community. I had at least one person tell me that my lack of participation on the board might make it hard to get permission, despite the fact that pretty much anyone who frequents the IRC knows who I am.
Obviously this isn't to say that one should never partcipate on the board, but it is certainly easier to get to know someone via the IRC, because it allows for instant conversations and the like, while this board, or any forum really, moves much slower.
To be honest, I have some concern that the IRC is a separate clique from the Board, which is not good—the Board is our home, as it were, as the stubborn refusal to leave it can attest. But as Phobos pointed out, the IRC really is filling in the role of the social community, so maybe it's time to build a bridge. Especially since, as Guvnor said, most of the PGs are more active there than here.
And, thinking back on it, the old chat was much the same. I know I used to feel like I was missing out because I couldn't be in there all the time, and everybody who was were all good buddies, so maybe that's where my concern is really coming from. So, how can we be more inclusive of IRCers on the Board while also being more inclusive of Boarders in the IRC?
~Neshomeh
Honestly? I like the IRC better. The only reason I even visit the board is because there are people here who aren't there, and as such stuff happens here that doesn't happen there. I am not particularly fond of the board's format and whatnot, and would totally be in favor of a move to an actual forum, but that's an old tired road that I've argued my way down many times before, and it always leads nowhere.
Anyway, my point is that your concern is not entirely unjustified, because I know there are others like me who prefer the IRC to the board because it's quicker, easier, and over-all a better way to have a conversation that doesn't take days.
Of course, as Kaitlyn demonstrated, the reverse is true for other folks. Personally, I much prefer a slower format because it gives me time to look over my words and make sure I'm saying what I mean without worrying about the conversation sweeping off without me in the meantime, and I like that everything is out in the open and sticks around for a while. But as you come here, I go to the IRC because there are people there who don't come here much, and good conversation to be had (if it's not too busy).
So, there's definitely a role for both. Discussing what those roles are and how people with one preference treat people with another looks like it's on the menu for the survey, which I think is a good idea.
~Neshomeh
I don't like the chat room, largely because I have trouble connecting to it and when I do manage, no one's around, simply because of the time zone I live in. I certainly agree that newbies who are active on the chat shouldn't be denied Permission just because they aren't so active on the Board, but would like to make the point that I will never be able to grand them Permission because I will never recognise them.
Perhaps we should ask that, when people make their request, they say whether they've been more active on the chat than the Board, if relevant? It would avoid tangly situations.
And I'm leaving all my hats off to do it:
What about a poll? We're all sitting here deciding how we would like the PPC to be, but most PPCers aren't involved in it (not because of shadowy-cabal-ness, but because they just aren't). Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a poll to find out what the PPC-at-large think the PPC should be like? I'm thinking questions like the following:
-Why are you in the PPC (could be multiple-choice)?
-What do you think the PPC Board should be for?
-What do you think the IRC should be for?
-What do you think the PPC Wiki should be for?
(And so on for anything else anyone can think of)
-How do you think permission to write PPC stories should be given (using the full phrase rather than the Capitalised Title so's to not restrict people's options)?
-What changes would you make to the PPC as a whole?
... and so on and so forth. Possibly that first one should be "What do you think are the purposes of the PPC?". I'm thinking this wouldn't be about how long you've been here, writing, reading, fandoms or anything (which were all covered very well by July's excellent survey), but simply about what we want the community to be.
If an agreement on a list of questions can be reached, I'd be happy to collate the results and make what sense I can of them. If, indeed, anyone other than me thinks this is a good idea.
hS
And, of course, the whole idea by extension. Anonymous means less pressure for people who might feel shy.
Maybe an additional question could be "What do you hope to get out of the PPC community?" Possibly also "How do you think you can help that happen?" if we want to talk about specific personal expectations.
I do. I've been thinking about how my own expectations and role have changed in some ways and stayed the same in others, but I'll save the personal introspection unless anyone's dying to hear it right now. {= )
~Neshomeh
I think you've hit the nail on the head on all counts.
I agree that re-wording is a good idea, and thank you for suggesting something proactive. I think the Permission page on the wiki could be more concise and less intimidating if we just present the facts without multiple headers and addenda, and don't rely on citing names so much. Citing a name is invoking authority (real or assumed); it adds weight to the subject. We can take some of that off, I think.
What does everyone else think?
~Neshomeh
(That's agreement, not an imperative, in case it's unclear).
hS
Permission is only as formal as we make it - while I agree that we've got more press now than back in the day, I really don't think we've undergone the incredible amounts of growth and/or increase in responsibilities that mean we have to organize everything with ties, suits, and appendices.
I second what VM said about the growth of the PPC contributing to a correlating growth of the amount of "system" in place. Anarchy is great in small numbers, but it doesn't work anymore once you get to the point where not everyone knows everyone else, which is where we're at here. There does have to be some method of making sure everyone is on the same page, or we won't be. And I don't think that's a bad thing.
I also remember when Permission was less of a big deal, and I would appreciate it if people would stop treating it as some huge rite of passage. It's not like having permission to write PPC stories makes you any better than anyone else or more welcome to hang out, after all (at least, those of us who have been here longest keep saying so). However, it does mean that you can string two sentences together with a minimum of SPaG errors, and it does mean that you're not going to write a Sue or Stu agent, and it does mean that you're not going to go completely against the spirit of the Original Series (and have, in fact, probably actually read the Original Series). And I don't think that's a bad thing, either.
~Neshomeh, who can probably count on one hand the number of times she's withheld Permission since 2008, just for the record.
In fact, that's pretty much what people were telling you to do in the first place.
Since communication seems to be an issue, let there be no doubt: until further notice, Permission is denied.
This does not mean it is denied forever, but you'll have to take all the good advice you've been given to get a different verdict in the future, okay?
~Neshomeh
I know on the IRC, a bunch of people recommended posting an Introduction thread before you did anything further-- what we meant, though, was not to introduce your characters, but yourself, as a writer and a person-in-general. What's your favorite color? What are your favorite canons? Why do you want to join the PPC? How'd you find us? What's your favorite spin-off? Do you like chocolate more, or... uh, something else? (Yeah, I can't think of anything that's comparable to chocolate. Except possibly garlic.)
In short, who are you?
(As an aside: after you've been here for at least a month, you should post not only your characters' profiles, but a sample of your writing. It's also customary to link to a badfic you intend to spork/kill/otherwise attack. Just character profiles will get you nowhere, because they tell us nothing about your actual writing skill; the reason we do the Permission thing is to make sure people writing for the PPC are, in fact, good writers.)
The PPC isn't running away, don't rush things. :P Also basically what DML said, they pretty much summed it up.
Woah, woah, woah now, slow down there, Captain Jumpy. Didn't someone tell you last time, or link you to the wiki page that said to wait and stick around here for at least a month, have a writing sample, and ask questions and understand how this place works? Not only that, but you should know what the rules of the PPC are, but also why the higher-ups have implemented them.
