Subject: Re: ...
Author:
Posted on: 2010-04-21 14:22:00 UTC
I wouldn't have ever considered it myself, but then I did a literature degree, which contined whopping great doses of feminism, particularly as applied to women in literature and women being allowed to publish stuff, etc. Then one starts noticing.
In the Sue fics I've MSTed, I've noticed an odd trend of Sue characters failing the Bechdel test. The Bechdel Test is a sort of litmus test for female presence in movies and TV. In order to pass, the film or show must meet the following criteria:
1) there are at least two named female characters, who
2) talk to each other about
3) something other than a man.
Is this something you guys have noticed too or have I just been reading the wrong Sue fics?
Technically, showgirls, red sonja, hellsing and black lagoon all pass the bechdel test, and none of them are exactly outstanding examples of gender equality. On the other hand, movies like the silence of the lambs and the lord of the rings movies(go and watch them again, I don't think there's any point where two women talk to each other) fail, but you can't say that movie is sexist. Spirited away passes, but all the women are servants, apart from the old witch-like characters. And I'm not even getting into games. System shock and bioshock? The characters spend most of their time talking to or about Jack/Subject delta/the Hacker. So it fails, but... SHODAN? Lansing? Tenenbaum? Lamb? All of them important female characters. Final fantasy X-2 passes, haha that's not sexist at all.
Scanning the front layer of my bookcase:
I don't think half of the discworld books pass, but you can't accuse terry pratchett of being a misogynistic pig. TWILIGHT, of all things, passes. My bloody Warhammer books pass, and the only women in the entire world seem to be incredibly rare or Sisters of Shallya. nearly all of the manga I own passes, and I dare you to say manga is usually gender-equal. V for vendetta fails. Batman passes. I can't even remember if Dune passes. I'd dig deeper, but I might get lost.
TL;DR while the test may help determine the gender equality of media, it is by no means a perfect reflection of the sexism inherent in said media.
...Are you talking about the anime? Piratical villain protagonists, Revy, Rock, Benny and Dutch? Because I don't think it's actually that sexist. Sure, copious fanservice and all, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that as long as the ladies' personalities are as well-developed as their bodies, which I'd argue that they are. Also, they're not at all dependent on men.
Maybe it should read "two women have a conversation about something other than romance/sex"? If that was true, then those shock games you mentioned would probably pass. I don't know the games, but none of those guys sound like romantics.
You see, in system shock, the main character, Hacker, is male and also the exclusive viewpoint character.
In one of my missions one of the agents makes a reference to Bechdel and Suefic:
"We should have a reverse Bechdel Test."
Tasmin frowned.
"A film passes the Bechdel Test if it has at least two women. These two women have a conversation, and that conversation is not about a man. A Suefic passes the Reverse Bechdel Test if it has at least two men. These men have at least one conversation, and each conversation is about a woman, more particularly, the Sue."
"What does it mean if a Suefic passes this test?"
Allison shrugged. "Another charge on the list."
---
I mostly read in a fandom that doesn't have that many women in it to begin with. Fanfic quite often only features one woman. In cases where this is a Sue, I have noticed that the men from canon suddenly seem incapable to talk about anything but the Sue.
Shouldn't they say 'if they fail the reverse Bechdel Test?
Someone either passes or fails. Tasmin was interested in knowing what happened if someone passed.
I'm thinking, though, that the criteria for passing should have been phrased differently: "and not every conversation is about a woman". Then failing the test is another charge on the list (cause then every conversation is about the Sue).
Or we'll be accused of misogyny again.
Yes, pretty much all Sues fail that test. So does pretty much all published writing. And all TV shows, and all films, and all any media outlet you care to name. It's not a distinguishing characteristic of Suefic. It's a distinguishing characteristic of anything written in the western world at some point in the last few hundred years.
... often fail both the female and male versions. My characters usually end up mostly conversing between men and women (and vice versa, I... guess?).
It's also worth noting that this may have less to do with who's allowed to talk, and more to do with the main/focus character. If your viewpoint (even third-person) is following a man around, an f-f conversation has to either break that viewpoint, or be passively observed (since if your male main character gets involved, that breaks the rule).
Of course, that does imply that there's a dearth of main female characters (and of course, I'm not saying this is the only factor). But it's not as simple as simple, I guess is my point.
hS
Although admittedly pretty much all male first-person stories automatically fail, that still seems ludicrously broad for most works failing it. I guess it's so pervasive I haven't noticed in any particular instances.
I was angry at the time, and I spoke hastily as a result.
'Twas more of an ironic tone than a bitter one.
...well, not -that- bitter, anyway. This world damages us all, we don't need to heap the abuse on each other as well.
You'd think it'd be different in fan-fic, considering that generally fan-fic is written by female authors. (From what I hear.) Then again, I'm male and most of my characters aren't...
Here's a list of exceptions, though. Most of them are pretty worth reading/watching.
Most of them.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest?from=Main.BechdelsRule
The gender of the author has little to do with it. Fics are still written in a cultural and societal framework that grants little to no worth to interactions between women that don't feature romance or men. Just because an author is female doesn't mean she hasn't grown up being repeatedly told that her only worth, in a storytelling medium, is in her facilitation of relationships with men.
That's very depressing. My fandom experience pretty much begins and ends with Buffy the Vampire Slayer and comic books, so I wasn't aware it was such a problem in fandoms.
I wouldn't have ever considered it myself, but then I did a literature degree, which contined whopping great doses of feminism, particularly as applied to women in literature and women being allowed to publish stuff, etc. Then one starts noticing.
political science where this kind of thing crops up as well. Consider the double standards imposed on female politicians ("cold bitch" vs. "weeping hysteric"), or the pressures on appearance.
One doesn't or shouldn't need an academic degree to take note of this stuff, of course.
I saw something mentioned once about maybe some kind of special addendum for long running tv series, because most of them, if they run long enough, will eventually pass the test. The proposal for an addendum was to counteract that possibility of a show getting a pass because of a single conversation in a ten year run.
Don't know if that's relevant or not, but I agree that they shouldn't get a pass as a whole. Does the Bechdel test come with some kind of rating system that shows by what margin the test subject passed?
I have a couple of female characters in the graphic novel script I'm writing. None of the major ones have had a discussion though. One of the major ones, Tallory, has spoken to a minor female character, Naj, during a larger argument. Here's how the conversation went:
Description: Tallory joins the rest of the group, who are each retrieving their horses from being tied to posts. Christof, the avorian man in thier party, is on his horse and gets into the conversation.
Christof:
What's all this now?
Tallory:
We're not killing anymore goblins.
Description: The Yeanese girl, Paj, buts in. She looks put off.
Paj:
And you're just deciding this for us, here and now?
Description: Tallory is on her horse now.
Tallory:
It doesn't bother you at all that we're killing for money?
Paj:
For five bronze bits I'd brain one of my sisters. There are plenty more where she came from.
What was the point of that? I just wanted to paste an amusing conversation from my script.
Do you have a gmail account? I'll just send you an invite to the google doc.