Subject: Ah yes,
Author:
Posted on: 2009-11-27 10:53:00 UTC
I had a Spanish supervisor once, who said about a Mexican colleague: "look what they already did to Spanish".
I'm less bothered about people butchering grammar when speaking than when writing.
Normally I'd run these by Neshomeh and Sedri first, but I've a notion neither of them will have much first hand experience of it, so I'm asking the rest of you too.
I've recently noticed that I don't usually swear strongly online. Bugger and sod and bloody - the words my mother thought it appropriate to use in front of seven year old me - I use all the time online, but stronger ones that would be censored if I type them here, very rarely. Contrast to offline, where I'm hard pushed to get through a sentence without effing and blinding.
Also, my grammar's a lot closer to standard English online. If this were true only when speaking to people I don't know well, I'd say fair enough, it's just an issue of register and formality. But it's even the case with people I know well in RL, with family members, and with my brain-twin Trojie.
Anyone else notice a similar disparity, or the opposite, in their language on and offline? And anyone (Neshomeh, Sedri, this is where I'm looking at you two) have any thoughts on why this happens?
I don't really swear in RL or online, but I have noticed that the way I speak and the way I write or type is different. I normally attribute it to the extra half-second or so between my brain and words appearing on the screen compared to my brain and mouth. This becomes even more obvious than normal when I have to do a speech or something, because if I try and write an actual script for myself, I end up re-writing it in my head while I'm giving the speech.
As you can imagine, I don't bother with scripts anymore.
I don't swear much in RL anyway, but I almost never use swear words online. That's mainly a familiarity thing, though, because I do use them with people I know well.
But what I have noticed is that my grammar somehow becomes more formal online. Most noticeably, I have a tendency to write things like 'it is' out in full, when I would always use the contracted forms in speech. (It only happens with some contractions though, for some reason). And this is when I'm IMing a close friend, so it's hardly a familiarity thing, or a case of reading over my words carefully before I post them. For some reason, my brain automatically converts things as I write them. But then, I write in a very formal style anyway, (the product of several years' worth of lab reports), so that could be something to do with it.
Weird. I never noticed that before.
(Also, online I do not have the bad habit of dropping the occasional 'like' into my sentences. And now that I think about it, I don't think I would actually use the phrase 'most noticeably' in regular speech).
I swear more online mostly because I feel more comfortable with it, but -- the tangents? The derailings? The RANDOM CAPSLOCK? Pretty close to how I talk. It's easier to understand because you aren't getting (many of) the dropped letters/syllables, there's not the Sarcasm Inherent In The Capital Letters Dammit Jai It's Your Fault I Do These Title Caps, and online I'm more likely to do separate sentences instead of trying to make a point in one long sentence that I shouldn't be able to get out without breathing and asIfinishitIendupspeedingandhighpitchedandlikethis, but other than that -- pretty close together.
...I apologize more online too, probably because there's more of a lag for me to do it in.
I just realized while replying to a comment -- I also do more subtext and simultaneous tangents while speaking online. I mean, you have italics, the LJ small tag (some other websites don't take it. awful other websites!), strikeout for when you're not sure if you want to say something but are blurting it out anyway, with html tags!, and (of course) parentheses. Which are a staple, how could I forget them?
So yes. Multiple conversations at once are much harder in spoken communication, and people are more likely to blink at me when I review five minutes back and go "Wait, no, that's the statue of Liberty!" than to take it in stride and start speculating on what that has to do with chickens wearing hats.
...Then again that might have more to do with who I talk to, as well, since I know some people who even in text can't stand the parenthetical conversations.
I'm also more likely to repeat words in spoken communication -- I've had "uncommon words repeated within fifteen or so words of each other will jar the reader, don'doit" ground into my head fairly well -- and my sense of humor works better when you know I'm going "Hi" sarcastically every three minutes instead of it provoking the reaction of "wtf how long is your attention span, seriously, I'm over here"...
Again, might be more that the people I talk to online are better at the kind of talking I do~
(ooh, and online lets you do emoticons! which confuses me sometimes when I want to emphasize with them and have to remember, wait, I can talk whilst making faces? craaaazy.)
...What?
I know what you mean. I swear like a sailor offline (or used to; my friend has been guilting me into the cessation of that habit), but other than that, I think my speech patterns don't change much. I stutter a bit, or stammer, but still occasionally speak in couplets or break out archaic language patterns-- which actually makes the swearing that much more fun, honestly.
I think it's easier to swear out loud, because speaking is such an effortless part of your brain, it's practically a subconscious effort, especially if you get into any kind of a habit-- goes for any expression. Typing, on the other hand, you get to see what you've put up (if you do the very tiniest bit of proofreading, anyway) before it actually goes up, and also as you're typing it-- and it's not nearly as subconscious a means of communication.
Plus when you get into the habit of writing for different audiences, and literacy becomes a point of pride, it's harder to do a lot of things-- swearing is just one of them.
to use proper spelling and grammar in e-mails and other on-line texts. This is because I sometimes come across articles in magazines about how careless people are in e-mails causing their message to get lost in the mess. Although I do have the habit -- mainly in Dutch -- to leave the subject out of the sentence (e.g. "Went to the shop" instead of "I went to the shop"). And I think I do this too when speaking, though I've never really paid much attention to how I use language when speaking.
In general it can be said though that Dutch people are very careless about their language. They only half-pronounce words, leave out words that a "good" listener should be able to pick up from context.
As for swearing, probably do that more off-line, but that's because I can't actually drop something on my foot on-line.
...Dutch people sound like Mexicans. Or at least like people in my town. Just saying.
(Although I guess part of it is that Spanish you have to match so much, so if you just hear the verb - for example - you might know the gender of the person who did the thing, when they did it and how familiar the speaker is with them? I'd say what they were wearing as well, but then I'd be exaggerating just a bit.)
I don't swear much either way, so there's not much difference there, but there is a difference in my language overall. For one thing, I can always get a coherent sentence out on the first try online. {= P IRL, I have a tendency to misplace words. I'll be talking along, all innocent-like, and then I'll say kumquat when I meant kiwi. It's incredibly embarrassing, because I know what I mean, but it comes out wrong, like I reached for one thing and grabbed the one next to it instead. It's almost always something that begins with the same sound. More often, though, I just can't string the words together the way I want to, so I end up saying "I mean" a whole lot in an effort to clarify and correct myself. If I get the chance.
The big difference is that online there's time to think everything through before it goes out where other people can see it. Out loud, you can't think about it too much before speaking, or you look like a moron.
Another difference is that most of the talking I do offline is with close friends and family, who will forgive me (or won't even notice) if I use informal/nonstandard language, including the occasional swearword. Most people's language gets more formal/standard when talking to people they don't know, and for me, that extends to the internet, where most of the talking I do is right here, on this Board, where it's in public and everyone can see. I'm less formal on AIM or in e-mails with good friends.
I think that about covers it, though. My language is different online both because I have the luxury of being as proper as I want to be, and because the situation calls for it.
~Neshomeh
Figured you didn't swear much, hence not just emailing you about this. There's a whole other question though - why's it so much easier to compose a thought in written words than spoken?
I don't entirely buy the time to think view based on my conversations with Trojie - we both type so fast and respond so instantly to messages that there's not much difference, in response time, between our written conversations and our microphone-based ones, and yet I still don't swear with her. With most people, however, I accept that's a valid point and an excellent interpretation for a less specialised version of my question. The bit I'm really pondering, though, is the instances where, for example in your case, you're talking to your close friends and family online - is there any difference in how you talk to them on and offline?
With you on the excellence of being as proper as you like though.
Why is it easier to compose a thought in writing? I don't know. What I do know is that it isn't easier for everyone. Maybe it comes with experience reading and writing? Maybe it's just a natural extension of any ability with written language?
You're right about not necessarily taking the time in IMs. I guess my language in IMs is closer to the way I speak. In casual conversation, I'm much more likely to use one-word or very short responses; I'm more likely to drop words if context makes them obvious. I get more formal if it's a serious conversation, though.
I think a lot of the why behind it all comes down to "because I can." *shrug*
~Neshomeh
I try really hard not to swear in RL, to the point where I occasionally spew an incoherent stream of gibberish when I get upset with something, in an attempt not to swear. I do swear at inanimate objects, but only when I'm alone (it's a victimless crime, unless you count my laptop).
I do swear in front of my old high school buddies (all guys, like me), but usually only when quoting dialogue or otherwise being humorous. In college I mostly hung out with girls, who swore more than me (and taught me some new ones), but I still tried to avoid a lot of casual swearing out of politeness (probably unnecessary). I very very VERY rarely swear in front of my parents, even with minor curses like damn or hell.
I don't often swear in online writing because when I'm typing, I have more time to compose my thoughts and think of the right words to use. I don't have that luxury in RL social situations (my kryptonite). I also tend to swear more over instant messenger conversations.
I talk like this all the time, really. Online and IRL, I'll quote random things at random times and try to make people laugh.
Is there no difference at all in how you phrase things on and offline, then? Not the content of what you say, but the words you choose to express it, I mean.
I swear pretty much equally online and in real life. The only difference, I think, is my tendency to shout a bit more (i.e. all caps) when I'm swearing online. Interestingly I've been swearing less at uni, since one of the group I hang out with there doesn't like people swearing and will object to it.
As for grammar... definitely better online. Especially when talking to people I know are ESL.
Having lived with you for two months, dear, I can safely say that you allcaps your swearing out loud too.
Hard as I try not to, I do sometimes find myself muttering bad language in real life, and I think that's because there's so much less time taken to vocalise than to type, and when typing you can almost always take it back. I hear people swearing around me all the time, and feel like the habit's been forced into me, and I hate it, whereas when typing I have much more control and can use language (like "bloody") when I choose.
Of course, I'm the odd one out, but it could work both ways. For cases like yours, Pads, I think maybe it has more to do with effort? Not to call you lazy, of course, but if you do swear that much in a verbal sentence, then to do the same in text would take a lot more typing time (even with shorthand), which would make it a lot less efficient for you when you're trying to get information across - whereas in verbal conversation it takes a fraction of a second and can be easily screened out by someone trying to understand you.
As for grammar, I think that any text-based medium is always going to be closer to Standard English just because we can't be understood if we don't conform to more of the rules. In face-to-face conversations we have body language and tone and so on to help. Here we have to use Standard English or else people get confused.
Or so I think.
Hmm. It's a curious one, effort. I think you may have a point, but perhaps in a roundabout way. Consider my usual exclamation of shock and surprise: out loud, where ' is a glottal stop and capitals denote the emphasised syllable, I would say 'kiNELL. Typed, I wouldn't say f*cking hell. I might say bloody hell, which is only one letter less, or I might, more likely, say Christ on a proverbial, which is rather a lot more to type, and also rather a lot less strong a swearword, and also a lot more complicated semantically.
I think I swear a lot out loud for the same reasons I drink to a degree the rest of you find odd: I grew up in a culture where swearing is the norm. F*cking has become a very versatile word, with a variety of meanings dependent on subtle subtexts, intonations, contexts, body languages, and formalities. It's usually not even used as an expletive. I can see why I'd either cut the f*ckings or else bowdlerise them online, for the sake of the people I'm talking to; I certainly had enough conversations when I was a rebellious teenager, online, with people who objected to my swearing, and I've come to recognise their point about appropriate registers. I can also see that not everyone views these words the way I do, and I can temper my language to converge with them.
The bit that I'm particularly pondering is the fact that I don't use the f*ckings when talking online to people I know in real life. My brother, for example - out loud, it's at least one apparent expletive per sentence, and yet online, I use nothing stronger than a bloody or a bugger. I'm not talking the difference between the spoken "So he f*cking comes to me and he f*cking ses this, and I thought f*ck that sh*t man, if he's gonna f*cking think that he can f*ck right off" and the written "He said this to me, and I thought sod him, because if he's going to think that then sod him."
...
Except actually, I am, in a way. Note the way the written version lacks the effing adverbials - that's a score for you in terms of effort. But I wrote the above without thinking, and the online version has sod in place of f*ck; the spoken version took effort to type that the written version didn't. Adverbial expletives are easily lost because they add nothing to meaning; they only add emphasis in spoken language. But what about the verb? Why have I changed that? Why do I change it to something less strong, even when talking to people to whom, out loud, I'd use the strongest language at my disposal?
I'm clearly not altering my language in order to not offend my brother in the example, because he hears me use all sorts of colourful language all the time out loud. So there's got to be more to it than just degrees of formality.
As for time taken to type, I've been considering that bit, and I think it's more about transience - out loud, all your effing and blinding is gone as soon as it appears, but online, it stays, and it's binding in some way that I haven't worked out the specifics of yet (help?).
Mind, that's partially because most of my online time is spent talking to people who swear every few sentences when they are angry, which is a noticeable portion of the time.
I think we all do that - it may have been eaten by the ether, but try scrolling back through a few pages on here; someone asked about politics a few months back, and my drunken reply was expletives every other word. The brain deals with expletives differently to the rest of language, and they come out when you're impassioned.
I do cuss in RL, but generally not in front of people. Online, though, I have no trouble using strong language (not the C-word, though, for some reason - in one of my missions the victim character started to say it and got cut off, but I've never actually typed it out). I think it's probably the anonymity factor in my case - people online mostly don't know who I am in real life and don't judge me if I swear. Plus most of the places I hang out online are unlikely to have unsupervised children reading so I'm okay with it. Then again, Cassie and I did end up laughing about the Dube Lube page in public at the last Gathering ... on reflection I think it's more likely to be the comfort level. I don't know many people in real life I'm comfortable swearing around.
That and the characters I write have excuses for swearing like sailors, so I can blame my muse ;)
Obviously this is going to be an issue with more than one explanation then. Shouldn't have expected anything else, really.
You could probably make a case for the anonymity factor and the comfort level being the same thing; the anonymity increases your comfort, so both explanations work. Re: the Dube Lube laughter, I can understand that - it's a lot easier to talk frankly about things in public, that would normally be off limits, if you're in a different city surrounded by people you know you'll never see again. Easier to do things differently too, as I discovered many years on a trip to Manchester - got into the habit of wearing vests, which I'd been too self conscious for at home, because none of the people who'd see me would ever see me again. Handy trick, really.
As for the c-word, don't get me started. I hate its use as the strongest of expletives, because it also refers to ladybits and the idea that they're the harshest and most horrible thing to be likened to doesn't sit well with me. And yet people who've seriously pissed me off and behaved appallingly, I'll still call them it. To make this worse, the milder word that I'd normally use is dick. My language, it unconsciously supports male dominated phallocentric patriarchal wossnames. The shame.
I'm now wondering what the hell the guy at the counter must have thought if he overheard that conversation. Even if he didn't hear the squicky bits it was still two people talking about glue and grapefruit juice and laughing uncontrollably ... eh, given that I was in drag at the time he's unlikely to recognise me if he does see me again.