Subject: Thanks...
Author:
Posted on: 2009-05-14 10:13:00 UTC
I hadn't realised that it would hang around this long. I'd sort of prefer asking again though as I doubt anyone would notice me replying that far back.
Subject: Thanks...
Author:
Posted on: 2009-05-14 10:13:00 UTC
I hadn't realised that it would hang around this long. I'd sort of prefer asking again though as I doubt anyone would notice me replying that far back.
Okay, a while ago, I posted the following five paragraphs asking for help. Then what happened? My access to the site was cut off. I only got a chance to read one reply, let alone respond to that. Fortunately, my access is back again and I had saved the question in a Word file. So here we go... again...
Does Pokémon have any logic in whatsoever? Because I’ve got a fic in progress but, as I’m trying to go for a thought-out story, I’m thinking about all the wacky things that tend to happen in it. Let’s ignore the whole romantic tension between ten-year-old and the fact that said ten-year-olds can defeat a crime syndicate time and time again and that no-one ever ages (does anyone age in any cartoon/anime? (Pokémon’s anime, right?)).
Pokéballs: is there a logical explanation for the fact that metal, which seems to have a lot of electronics inside, can expand from the size of my big toe to the size of my palm? Is there an explanation for the fact that Pokémon, random creatures with at least 493 species, can all be shot at with a… laser(?) and turned into a laser and sucked into a Pokéball (which then is compressed back to toe-size)? Is there a logical explanation for how they come out (in a weird flash of white light)? Hell, is there an explanation for how they can sometimes come out on their own? They can’t be in stasis of any sort, because they generally seem to know what’s going on (also, they’d be angry if all they ever saw was battle after battle). Also, they seem to heal between battles even if they haven’t been sprayed with Salvon or whatever’s in that bottle they sometimes use. And if they’re not in stasis, then can they starve to death if they’re not let out for a long time?
Pokémon Evolution: How the hell do they evolve so constantly? And why do they glow when it happens? They only seem to need to beat up a few other Pokémon to evolve (or have a catalyst in the form of a magic rock, of which an explanation would also be useful). At least Digimon had an explanation: they were all pieces of data, so they could happily switch back and forth between all sorts of evolutionary stages. Also, the Digidestineds’ Digivices (Digithis, Digithat) seemed to act as a trigger. But Pokémon has no explanation. And what’s up with Eevee? It can evolve into one of five things???
Pokémon Attacks: Some can be explained. Psychic attacks simply require brainpower, fire attacks obviously come from a fuel source within the Pokémon et cetera. But were does the water in Water Gun come from? How do they form explosive(?) bubbles with Bubble Beam? Where do all these razor-sharp (and as strong as steel) leaves and infinitely long vines come from with Grass-types and their Razor Leaf and Vine Whip attacks?
This wasn’t meant to be as long as it was, but I spotted more and more weird things as I went. Any help would be very appreciated. Also, if you can explain any more weird things that I’ve missed, that would be just as good. Even if you can’t explain them, point out the weird stuff so I know what to deweirdify.
“Disclaimer - my entire knowledge of pokemon is based on my having watched the first series of the cartoon when I was about eleven or twelve, which is over ten yeras ago now.”
Hey, I’m writing a fic with the same kind of knowledge (plus some of the games). Any form of help is appreciated, especially from someone with as much biology knowledge as you.
“Animals and plants are grouped based on different charactersitics, and the idea of grouping them is to make sure that each group contains only organisms that are more closely related to each other than they are to everything outside the group. And modes of life are very important criteria for dividing up organisms - outward appearance is actually one of the least important criteria - it is so easily changed by selection pressure. So given that all Pokemon have this same basic mode of reproduction/metamorphosis, which can be catalysed by rocks, of all things (and I'll get onto THAT later as well), I'm going to group them in their own class, part of the phylum Arthropoda and a sister-taxon to the classes Insecta, Chelicerata etc etc. This group is cladistically correct because it is monophyletic (nothing that belongs in the group has been left out - no other animals reproduce like Pokemon do)”
… wow. Just wow. You may be “talking out [your] arse” as you say, but that makes perfect sense in a ‘had to look at the dictionary sixty-eight times’ kind of way. :P I’m not sure, but that could very well work. Unfortunately, that’s a bit too much information for my needs and I have nowhere to put it all. Sorry. Professor Birch plays a mild to moderate part of my fic (especially at the beginning), so if I get the chance, can I use him as a mouthpiece for you as he babbles on about a new discover. The only problems are Eevee and Ditto. How do you explain a Pokémon that can evolve into seven completely different species (and don’t say ‘unstable genetic code’ unless that’s actually plausible :P) and a Pokémon that can take the form of anything?
Re: Professor Birch. For some reason, I’ve started seeing him as a Scottish bloke when I’m writing him. Can anyone help me understand why?
“As for the rock catalyst thing, it is possible (not probable, and not likely, but possible) that these magical rocks contain essential elements or compounds that catalyse the chemical processes that cause them to metamorphose, or that stress them into changing, somewhat like bad water conditions force axolotls (which are normally neotenous and happy about it) to undergo the last stage of development and become newts.
This is a poor and depauperate explanation but I'm sort of scraping the bottom of the barrel here.”
No matter as I never use rocks in the game unless I have to (find them fairly pointless really), so I don’t think my characters will use them unless as a last resort for some reason (e.g. the Apocalypse that I have planned). :P
"The only problems are Eevee and Ditto. How do you explain a Pokémon that can evolve into seven completely different species (and don’t say ‘unstable genetic code’ unless that’s actually plausible :P) and a Pokémon that can take the form of anything?"
For a start 'unstable genetic code' doesn't exist. Not in that way, at least. So we'll just not think about that.
However, saying it evolves into seven different species doesn't work, either, because you cannot change species. No individual has ever changed species, just like no individual has ever evolved. Evolution is a process that happens between generations. So, here's my thoughts on Eevee - I can't remember if the things it evolves into are Pokemon that can also evolve from other baby Pokemon or not, but if that is so, then I would say that the Eevee version are mimics rather than the same 'species' as the same adult-appearance evolved from a different juvenile. If the things that Eevee evolves into are ONLY known as end products of Eevee evolution, well, then what you have is extreme ecophenotypic variation. I'm assuming that different catalysts or events or triggers or environments are required to get it to change into any specific adult? It's not random? Then it's merely variation, not a different species. This point would be strengthened were it to turn out that each Eevee-adult of different appearance could still breed with Eevee-adults of dissimilar appearance.
As to Ditto, well, mimicry again. Of course I'd like to investigate the mechanism by which it does it, but plenty of animals are capable of imitating other animals, plants, rocks etc, and there are enough chameleon-like animals that can change colour, and from memory it's a sort of jelly-ball thing when it's not being something else? Perhaps it's got an amorphous body and a really really good colour-change system, and enough sense-organs to produce a good enough picture in its brain of what it needs to look like to enable it to change form to imitate other Pokemon.
Again, still talking mostly out my arse here, esp. on Ditto (Eevee I'm happier about because hey, evolutionary biology is kinda my thing) but whatever, hopefully it's useful technobabble for you :D
"For a start 'unstable genetic code' doesn't exist. Not in that way, at least. So we'll just not think about that."
I thought so. :P
"So, here's my thoughts on Eevee - I can't remember if the things it evolves into are Pokemon that can also evolve from other baby Pokemon or not"
No. Eevee's evolutions are only formed from Eevees. Vaporeon: Water Stone. Jolteon: Thunder Stone. Flareon: Fire Stone. Espeon, Umbreon, Leafeon and Glaceon, I have no idea.
"This point would be strengthened were it to turn out that each Eevee-adult of different appearance could still breed with Eevee-adults of dissimilar appearance."
I believe that they can, but don't quote me on it.
"Perhaps it's got an amorphous body and a really really good colour-change system, and enough sense-organs to produce a good enough picture in its brain of what it needs to look like to enable it to change form to imitate other Pokemon."
It has eyes though. And a mouth. And presumably ears so that it can hear what it's trainer is saying.
"Again, still talking mostly out my arse here, esp. on Ditto (Eevee I'm happier about because hey, evolutionary biology is kinda my thing) but whatever, hopefully it's useful technobabble for you :D"
Yes, it was. Thanks.
...I would say that Eevee's evolution into different adult forms is controlled by environment.
Ditto having eyes is a good thing - it means it can see, which means that it knows what it has to look like :) and therefore the camouflage idea works too.
when Pads asked you for me about my Lanomorph species (which you called slime mould XD) from my original fiction (and they are essentially Ditto), I believe one of you discouraged eyes... I think... I need to check.
Considering that Espeon and Umbreon only evolve during the day and night respectively, and Leafeon and Glaceon only evolve when in proximity to certain special rocks in the Sinnoh region- one in a forested area, the other in an alpine environment.
(Old-school Pokemaniac here, if you need any other completely useless in-canon information)
... because it's the only way I can think of to jiggle the biology to fit :D
Even in the desert, there’s still water. Maybe (though I really doubt this is plausible) for that move, Pokémon pull all water towards them until they have enough to Surf. I do have to wonder how Waterfall works anywhere though.
Have no fear. I am not planning any bizarre Pokémon relationships. In fact, I only even comment on a few having any potential, all of which are perfectly fine (a Combusken/Blaziken and a Combusken/Blaziken; two Ditto; Ditto and an as yet undecided Pokémon). As those are all perfectly normal, they could do whatever they want.
However, I’m not sure how I want to do this. Intercourse would be perfectly fine and natural for these lot, but what about non-compatible ones? It wouldn’t make much sense for Pokémon to randomly switch from intercourse to egg-laying depending on their partner.
Help?
“I, personally, gave up on logic in Pokemon a long time ago. I don't think it's meant to make sense, but just to entertain. It's a fantasy world with different rules etc.”
But what would the rules be? After all, we wouldn’t want Christopher Paolini getting away with all the weird stuff in Eragon by saying “this world has different rules,” would we? :P Most fandoms have different rules to our universe (magic, starships et cetera) but whether or not those rules are explained is a different matter.
“Evolution could just be a case of 'I'm too powerful/experienced for this form now, I need to be at the next one to continue getting stronger.' There are exceptions, of course (i.e. Ash/Satoshi's Pikachu and its ability to defeat almost anything), but most things evolve once they're strong enough.”
Yeah, about Pikachu, why doesn’t it ever evolve and can still beat up everyone? I mean, surely some other Pokémon should have objections to evolving as well.
“I believe it was mentioned somewhere, perhaps in the Pokedex of one of the games, that Eevee has an unstable genetic code and therefore can evolve into whatever Pokemon is attuned to the stone you use on it (about seven or so now I think).”
An ‘unstable genetic code’? The only thing I can think of is that it means is that it’s missing pieces… which sounds ridiculous.
“People do age in anime, most of the time, but Pokemon is just weird with its non-aging. The Digimon Adventures 01 characters were older by the time of 02, to use your other mon-anime example.”
Yeah, but that was due to it being set later on (and with new characters). Pokémon’s being going on for years now with the same core characters (mostly).
“Good luck with figuring out Pokemon logic and science.”
Thanks. I’ll probably need it.
“There is no logical explanation behind Pokeballs, other than the diffusion of matter. In my stories, the Pokeball contains technology capable of transferring physical matter into a pure energy form, thus allowing the Pokemon to be stored within the Pokeball. As all amtter is simply different forms of energy, the conversion is easy enough to say in theory, but hard ot put into practice.”
That actually makes perfect sense. My story’s based on a combination of Ruby and Sapphire and in all of the games, someone says something like “Technology is incredible! You can now store and recall items and Pokémon as data via PC!” (from Red). Therefore, that is very easily transferred to your theory. I suppose I better ask anyway: mind if I nick your idea?
“Additionally, Pokeballs can expand or reduce in size due to the technology of the Pokeball moving around, thus allowing it to enter a more compact mode.”
And that one.
“It's unsure what the inside of a Pokeball is like, seeing as the being inside is theoretically pure energy, but it is often guessed, and supported by Nintendo, that the inside of the Pokeball varies to give the mind of the Pokemon, or the physical body if the energy process turns it to energy, then to matter again inside the Pokeball, a more sane level of existance. A water type may need water, thus the Pokeball compensates thruogh inbuilt technology. In this thread, of the inside of a Pokeball is chosen to suit the Pokemon, it also follows that the environment is suitable for the Pokemon to rest and heal.”
If it’s supported by Nintendo, why does it need to be guessed?
“Given the choice, I suppose a Pokemon may even be able to listen to events occuring outside its Pokeball, giving the possibility that the Pokeball has psychic capabilities and responds to the thoughts of a Pokemon.”
The Pokéball has psychic abilities? I just figured that it let sound through or something.
”Within the anime and games, Pokemon do need additional medicine for particularly extreme wounds or conditions (Poisoned, as an example), but other than that, Pokemon have probably developed accelerated healing abilities as a result of their frequent practice of battling.”
What about the wild ones though? They don’t battle nearly as much and they obviously have enhanced healing abilities.
“Pokemon have aso been shown to be fed regularly outside of the Pokeball, showing that the Pokeball doesn't seem to provide nutrition. As a result, they can starve to death unless they are Ghost Types.”
I suppose that answers the question of whether ghost types need to eat. But what about others? Regirock, Regice and Registeel have no mouths and it even comments in Ruby’s Pokédex that no-one has any idea what Registeel eats.
“Pokemon do not evolve constantly, as each tends to have one, or at most, two forms to evolve into. Humans are constantly evolving in their childhood to their teenage, and then adult forms, it's just more gradual. In the case of Pokemon, these changes are more sudden.”
Yes, but some Pokémon change so bizarrely that they can’t be said to merely be growing up (plus, that would imply that Pikachu is a perpetual child). Also, what about some Pokémon that evolve into multiple things (ignoring Eevee). For example, Wurmple can evolve into Silcoon or Cascoon depending on its stats.
“It's the training that allows a Pokemon to evolve, similar to how exercise and nutrition allows the human body to grow towards adulthood.”
What about wild Pokémon? I can’t picture a Jigglypuff fighting so that it can evolve (and definitely not Magikarp).
“It's quite similar to the human developement, just occurs at set stages that can spontaneously happen, whether upon an emotion trigger or the need to evolve to deal with their current situation (See when Ash's Charmeleon evolved to Charizard to save Ash from the Aerodactyl).”
*remembers* Damn, you’re saying that my idea isn’t original. *curses* I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. It’s not all that original to have a Combusken evolve into Blaziken in order to save her trainer from being killed by a Team Aqua member. Well… that might be original, but the general idea probably isn’t.
“The elemental stones are shown to contain concentrated doses of whatever element they represent, which leads to the suggestion of radioactivity, a natural element not found on earth or even divine blessing.”
… I think I’ll go for radioactivity out of those choices (though obviously a form that has no effect on humans).
“Eevee is capable of evolving because it is very adaptable. It has been specifically noted that Eevee's DNA is unstable, allowing it to potentially absorb part of the environment around it and evolve to best suit it. This would explain why Eevee evolves around the Ice Rock in Diamond and Pearl, or to Vaporean when exposed to a Water Stone.”
As I said to Ansela, an ‘unstable genetic code’? The only thing I can think of is that it means is that it’s missing pieces… which sounds ridiculous.
“Pokemon attacks can be a bit tricky, but again, I also dealt with this in my own Pokemon fanfic.”
*is relieved* I just had a worrying thought that you guys might think I’m weird for writing a Pokémon fic.
“The water used by certain water Pokemon (Squirtle, Totodile, Mudkip, etc) is developed in an internal water pouch which frequently fills with either excess saliva, stomach acid (Explaining why several Water Types are also poison types), or is capable of combining oxygen in the air with hydrogen produced naturally by the body.”
There are Water/Poison types? I’ve never seen any. I can only really picture Squirtle and co and any big Water types having space for a water pouch given how much they seem to use sometimes. I think I’ll use a combination of that idea and the air one (e.g. Mudkip would breathe in (Water types seem to do that a lot) and blow out and do something magical that combines both the oxygen and hydrogen together without a water pouch).
”Leaves and vines are harder to explain. However, there are cases where plants can be quite effective against regular metal. Theoretically, by binding together thousands of paper thin layers of membrane, you can create a substance equal in power to steal. This would be seal in a laquer naturally product by grass Pokemon.”
Hmm… can I nick this too?
“The vines may simply be the result of seeds carried by the Pokemon being forced to grow rapidly, or even the Grass Pokemon itself forcing its body to grow by concentrating sunlight, nutrients and water in its body to force the growth or attack (Solarbeam requires sunlight to fire, etc).”
What about when they retract the vines though?
“And that's all stuff I've dealt with in my story. It's actually quite fun, applying logic, you just gotta ask 'How can this work', and then create the theories. I dealt with the paradox of 'Pokemon fire = Not Death' vs 'Building on Fire = Death' by saying that fire types excrete a natural chemical in their fire sacs which limits the heat their flames can reach.”
I presume you’re talking about how Pokémon fire won’t kill humans. I’ve gone against the anime with this in that Pokémon fire can and will kill (especially if you get it in the face). After all the Pokédex entry for Torchic in Ruby says “This Pokémon breathes fire of over one thousand and eight hundred degrees Fahrenheit, including fireballs that leave the foe scorched black.” For Pokémon, I’ve decided that, like prey always do, each species has developed defences against the things that could kill it. Therefore, Wurmple has spikes on its tail to drive off Swellow, all Pokémon can survive brief blasts from fire types if their skin is toughened against flame etc. Fire types themselves have totally different views on fire. Taken from the draft of one story of mine from a Blaziken’s POV. “Taking a deep breath, she blew out, expelling some of her inner fire with the air. Flames spewed from her mouth, but they felt cold to Miska. As a Blaziken, she was adapted to survive the fire she used. When it was cold to her, it was still very hot but pathetically weak compared to her true power.” My current theory (though I’m open to suggestions) is that fire types are like a flamethrower. They need a flame of X size inside them to get it going and then use fuel to expand that into a deadly weapon. The fuel in my theory is stolen from the dragons in Reign of Fire.
I hadn't realised that it would hang around this long. I'd sort of prefer asking again though as I doubt anyone would notice me replying that far back.
... leave a post on this thread with your thoughts on what people said last time. Even divide it by name if you like. People can find their own bits to reply to in that.
hS
Now give me a couple of days to work out smart and reasonable responses.