Actually, correction:

Subject: Actually, correction:
Author: Herr Wozzeck
Posted on: 2014-06-12 21:59:00 UTC

Looking at the dates again, I wouldn't have joined the PPC for another year. So yeah, I definitely wasn't around then.

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Hey, you remember my first PPC mission? by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 15:25:00 UTC Reply

Well, the author of it eventually found out and tried to get me in trouble for it. When that didn't pan out, we got in an argument. So I thought it was done, right?

Nope.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10443884/1/The-Eight-Gates

He then posted that to the site. And then went on a random rant about how stupid following the canon is. I've mentioned this on the IRC a few times by now, but I think now is the point where I have had enough. This is immature behavior of the highest level, given that he is still throwing up a stink about a now four-year-old snarking.

Oh, and he may have attributed one of my snarkings for the Library to the PPC. And also misrepresented the fact that he has been bitching about this for half a year now. And he also omitted the fact that, after switching his username, he pretended to be someone else first before then springing that he was Jedi Qui-Gon. And the fact that he then has been nothing but impersonable ever since.

I've been trying to keep this thing under wraps for you guys. So far, I've restricted it to some bitching about it in the IRC. But now, this has gone too far, and I think I need to bring all of your attentions to it.

Because seriously. You know someone is immature when they're obsessing about a snarking that happened THREE YEARS AGO!

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And then he deleted it. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-13 06:33:00 UTC Reply

Guess he thought his point was proven or something.

Too bad, 'cause he proved absolutely nothing at all. Right, guys?

Huh. Whaddaya know. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-13 14:41:00 UTC Reply

Maybe someone told him how absolutely devastated we all are over here, ripping our shirts and swooning and whatnot, and he took pity on us.

Or it could be eatpraylove reported him and the admins actually acted on it. Alas, we'll never know.

I'm kinda disappointed, actually. I didn't notice this myself (kinda distracted by other things in this thread...), but Phobos told me the deaths of Florestan and Eusabius were pretty much word-for-word identical, and I wanted to see for myself. 'Cause that would be... uh... a cunningly symbolic use of parallelism? Or something?

^_~

~Neshomeh

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You do remember where you are, right? by Huinesoron on 2014-06-13 15:49:00 UTC Reply

Did you really think that no-one would have saved a copy?

The relevant passages:

He struck the agent with a kick and open handed punch, shattering every rib and many other bones in the agent's body.

Florestan flew into the floor so hard, it cracked on impact. The agent bounced off the floor. He landed, body limp and unmoving.

Lee landed nearby, his body back to normal with the Eight Gates inactive, but breathing heavily. "Neji, I did it!"

---

Might Guy kicked the opponent into the air and jumped up. He appeared in front of Eusabius. "Morning Peacock!" He punched Eusabius so fast and so many times, the friction set his fists ablaze. He then kicked the flaming agent downwards.

The agent's body smashed into the floor, bounced off it, and landed. The body was still and unmoving.

Might Guy landed nearby. "Finished."

Pretty close, actually. Hmm... maybe it's a comment on the fact that once you've read enough PPC missions, all the killings start to blur together and look the same? Or it could be a powerful statement about the numbing power of explicit violence in stories - how overusing violence robs it of its distinctiveness.

Or it could be bad writing. That's always an option.

hS

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Is it just me, or... by wobblestheclown on 2014-06-17 11:54:00 UTC Reply

Does "All The Killings Start To Blur Together" sound like a mid-period Fall Out Boy album track?

That aside, I don't think we should care all that much about how our agents kill Sues, because (as several Boarders have previously been at pains to point out) what we do isn't about the actual killing of Sues. Sure, it happens, and if you can make it inventive and funny then go for it, but it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of a mission.

To clarify: by Huinesoron on 2014-06-17 16:59:00 UTC Reply

My 'all the killings start to blur together' was in the same vein as Neshomeh's 'cunningly symbolic use of parallelism' - a made-up 'reason' for something which was almost certainly down to bad writing. My opinion is that if the ends of your stories are all blurring together, you're doing something wrong. ;)

(However, if you're writing a DMS mission where the Mary Sue doesn't get killed, you're also doing something wrong. We don't call them Assassins for nowt!)

hS

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"All the Killings Start to Blur Together" by sjosten on 2014-06-14 05:47:00 UTC Reply

I wonder if the answer to this is to kill in more creative ways, or to just accept it and focus on enhancing the rest of the fic?

I had it up still and managed to save it (nm) by zdimensia on 2014-06-13 15:46:00 UTC Reply

Well... by Desdendelle on 2014-06-13 12:32:00 UTC Reply

The only thing he'd proven is that he has the maturity of a three-years-old.

Oh, he had proven that very well already. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-13 15:22:00 UTC Reply

It's just that he keeps proving. As I said to one of my co-contributors on the Library, I think there's a point where eventually he has to realize he's not coming out of this situation looking like any kind of hero.

*facepalm* by eatpraylove on 2014-06-13 02:44:00 UTC Reply

I know it's bad form to rage against the author, but...mother of Kyuubi, that's stupid. (Is it OK to treat the tailed spirits as minor gods?) I will report that fool posthaste and sprinkle my computer with holy water, salt, and essential oils afterward. Carefully, of course; my laptop cost 800 dollars.

(OK, maybe not that last one, but still.)

I'm not sure reporting would do anything... by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-13 02:48:00 UTC Reply

I mean, he didn't technically break any rules. And besides, one of his main sticking points was "you did it without permission". Which is disingenuous, sure, but hey, if he wants to make himself look like a hypocrite, that's his prerogative, and he's not technically breaking any rules.

Also, I refer you to Phobos' post below.

My two cents. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 17:46:00 UTC Reply

You've heard my thoughts on this already, but I stand by what I said originally: Just ignore this guy. If he's actively harassing you despite your attempts to cease communications, that's different, but if all he's doing is attempting to PPC the PPC (and failing hard at it, I hasten to add), so what? He's free to spend his time and energy on it if he wants to. You don't have to let it be important enough to waste your own on him any more. Yes, he deceived you; yes, it's dumb; but really, how much of your life do you want to let him have over it?

~Neshomeh

P.S. The best line: "He punched Eusabius so fast and so many times, the friction set his fists ablaze." He set his own hands on fire. LOL. I'm not very familiar with Naruto; is this really a thing that can happen? {X D

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I know I should ignore him. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 17:59:00 UTC Reply

But did you read that author's note? That's one name-drop away from being slander, Nesh! I mean, he intentionally misrepresents the PPC, cries says that it's "bullying" when that misinterprets the whole point of the PPC, and pretends that he never deceived me originally.

I'm sorry, but to me, that kind of slander is, in fact, a form of harassment.

P.S. I actually don't know, though I know that the canon does have chi in it. So even if it was possible, it's likely it wouldn't have too much of a negative effect on him. That, or the fire fist thing was a likely chi attack (the main character himself can transform into a flaming fox with multiple tails, I know that much). I don't know for certain, you'd have to ask someone who's more familiar with Naruto than I.

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We've been accused of bullying before. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 19:24:00 UTC Reply

I forget, were you around for the "So Sue Me" thing? There was a whole dissertation about how Sue-Slayers are terrible mean people who crush the hopes and dreams of young girls, and we're misogynist anti-feminist woman-haters, etc. That's why we have the Gender Card section in the FAQ: For Other People now, and why I wrote this.

I'm sorry for being blase about Jedi Qui-Gon—I know it sucks for you—but it's all happened before, and it will happen again. It's hard for me to get up in arms about it. We know better; anyone who takes the time to get to know us will know better. Other people either don't care or aren't worth the effort to convince.

~Neshomeh

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who was Jedi Qui-Gon in the first place? (nm) by 7.65x54R on 2014-06-13 01:24:00 UTC Reply

HW already explained the backstory elsewhere. by son_of_heaven176 on 2014-06-13 03:42:00 UTC Reply

Here's the link: http://literarytravesty.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/a-response-to-jedi-qui-gon/

Actually, correction: by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 21:59:00 UTC Reply

Looking at the dates again, I wouldn't have joined the PPC for another year. So yeah, I definitely wasn't around then.

Or wait... No, I would've joined around then. (nm) by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 22:00:00 UTC Reply

It seems I wasn't around for that. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 21:59:00 UTC Reply

This is honestly the first time I've heard of Boosette or whatever her name was, so I wasn't around for that. Looking at the dates of some of the comments, actually, it seems like I had either only just joined or I was about to join, I don't remember which. So no, I don't remember that.

But still. It's hard as hell for me to deal with the fact that it's the entire organization he's targeting 'cause of a snarking I did. (And one that he even lied about: the A/N mentioned two snarkings, but I think you and I both know that the Library isn't actually affiliated with the PPC apart from the fact that I contribute to it.) And the fact that it's all untrue and that he's continuing to lie about how he was a part of all this...

I just don't know, Nesh.

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I totally get it. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 22:47:00 UTC Reply

The So Sue Me rant wasn't exactly on target, either, and a lot of us (myself included) were really upset about it. I think that was even part of what made Trojanhorse quit. It really does suck, being falsely accused. (Or, we must admit, not-so-falsely. We weren't always so insistent upon not insulting the authors.)

Personally, I did a lot of soul-searching and came to the conclusion that the best thing is to disprove these people with my words and actions at every turn, as best I can. So, basically: don't insult the authors—in fact, don't say anything about the authors, since referring to the OC, the narrator, or the story in general usually gets the point across while maintaining the important distinction between author and work; give respectful concrit when possible; write goodfic if so moved; and basically don't be a jerk. That way, they don't have a leg to stand on. It's the only way I can see to fight back without making things worse.

~Neshomeh

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(No kidding.) by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 23:48:00 UTC Reply

(Jeez, I remember some of my earlier missions where I did refer to the author as opposed to the Sue and stuff. I've been better about that, so...)

One thing that's confused the shit out of me throughout this whole thing is his insistence that he has improved and moved on from his fic. One of my co-contributors in the Library had this to say, actually:

"But, if you look at it another way, despite his claims that the criticism of his work does not affect him, it certainly affected him enough to both write that fic and make a long commentary at the bottom about how he's not bothered any more.

You can only publicly deny the obvious for so long."

And really, that does seem to sound about right. He's put up this stink about it for the better part of six months, and it hasn't let up once. One thing I've asked that he has never, ever answered is "why are you still putting up a stink about this fic if that's the case", and it makes me so confused that he tossed around all this talk about "oh, I've improved so much since then" and then turns around and tries to protect what should be his old shames. And then there's everything else, like making himself into a martyr that he isn't and everything associated with what he brings up in that fic. In that context, I guess it's just that he's in denial about how hurt he is. I still can't understand why it's there years after the snarking and why he's still talking about it six months after he first told me about it, but there it is.

I don't know what kind of self-righteousness would have to exist for that to occur, but by now he has to realize it hasn't gotten him anywhere...

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Slander is spoken. Written is libel. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-06-12 18:41:00 UTC Reply

Fair enough. Sorry. (nm) by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 18:47:00 UTC Reply

have a bit of humor by zdimensia on 2014-06-12 16:37:00 UTC Reply

Hmm, don't see any of his old stuff to see if he actually improved. (Haven't gone hunting for the mission.) I skimmed over it a bit since it had elements that bore me, but I think his fight scenes were a bit muddy.

Without Wozz's context, it's sorta funny. Hopefully that guy got it out of his system, goes to write some original stuff, and gets his stuff critted red in front of him.

But hey, the organization has been parodied beyond recognition in this. We can take better than we can dish. Depending on his popularity, we might get some trolls, but it should die down if we're level-headed. Maybe the wiki should get locked-down or a backup if that's possible.

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Honestly, zdimensia... by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 16:52:00 UTC Reply

...a big part of it was just the way he went about it before it got to this point. Honestly, I would be a lot less angry about this whole thing than I am if it weren't for the fact that this is the capstone of some really bad behavior on his part, and if not for the fact that he is still lying about all the things he did. If you want the sparknotes version, you can have that here: http://literarytravesty.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/a-response-to-jedi-qui-gon/

If he had just started with this, I would've been annoyed, but I wouldn't be infuriated. But the fact that this is the capstone of what I mention there... Yeah.

The mission itself goes a bit deeper than you imply. His prose has improved, there are some actual descriptions now, and the plot isn't a parade of complete bat-shit insanity, but that's about all I can say. His characters are still completely uninteresting cardboard cut-outs, they still talk like they're in a Saturday Morning cartoon, his action scenes are still very poorly paced, and in this case there's still no attempt to reconcile the canons. So there was some improvement, but it's not by much.

And anyway, he's still trying to defend this fic by making it so that the PPC never went in and corrected it. That implies that he still believes there was some quality to be had there, no? So therefore, any talk of "improvement" from his end is, to my eyes, him being full of shit.

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Easy by zdimensia on 2014-06-12 18:17:00 UTC Reply

Without all that drama, it would be amusing. I did try to say that.

This pail of sand is soaked with oil.

*reads MTS*

You're claws-out vitriolic, I'm gonna ask you to beta my self-spork when I get to it. :D

Yeah. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 18:21:00 UTC Reply

It usually is at least somewhat amusing. Not in this case.

And trust me, zdimensia, the claws usually only come out when I lose my patience. And with this guy, I lost my patience pretty quickly. Tends to happen when deception is involved, really.

Wozz, I know you're upset, but please cut the swearing. (nm) by doctorlit on 2014-06-12 17:35:00 UTC Reply

Re: Hey, you remember my first PPC mission? by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 16:03:00 UTC Reply

Well, if you're don't even have the basic good manners to tell people when you've sporked their story, then you deserve everything you get.

Sorry, but sporking it behind the author's back is just plain rude! What were you thinking?

Well, funny you should say that... by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 16:20:00 UTC Reply

...given that one of the things that Jedi Qui-Gon conveniently left out to fit his narrative of "oh, I've been horribly wronged by this bully" is that I did, in fact, leave a constructive review for the story. Granted, I did it in character along side Florestan and Eusabius, but still. (And yet somehow, he still messed up their characters by doing away with Eusabius' legendary stoicism and giving Florestan things to say that are way too fancy.)

As Nesh and Doc said, we're not obligated to tell them about fics that have been missioned, and we normally don't.

Well, unless the author of the fic that was mission'd got a new account, contacted you, pretended to be someone else, and then asked about those old fics. In which case, you get this. Looking back, I probably should've known better, but apparently I'm just too trusting and nice that way.

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Um, we almost never tell the authors. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 16:14:00 UTC Reply

Over a decade of experience has taught us that 99.9% of people get angry and behave like this Jedi Qui-Gon guy if they find out about a sporking, and it doesn't matter when or how. Plus, what's more rude: privately make fun of someone's work, or make fun of someone's work to their face? The latter, of course.

It's far, far better if the authors never know about it.

~Neshomeh

I wouldn't call this "making fun to their face". by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 16:27:00 UTC Reply

I would just call it a form of revenge-based author tract that doesn't even have the decency to attempt humor. Because that's really all the fic is: it's characters approaching Florestan and Eusabius, having conversations with them that are entirely full of shit and do absolutely nothing to even try to refute any of the points he brings up (and no, his "only the authors of the canon can ruin the canon" argument doesn't count given how disingenuous it is as a concept and given how completely it misinterprets how we view canon at the PPC), and then proceeds to kill them. It's almost at John Galt levels of Author Tractiness, really.

And also, I did warn him that he would only be proving me right by posting this kind of story. I guess that warning flew right over his head.
Sorry, I can't agree by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 16:26:00 UTC Reply

If someone needs to be told something, then right thing to do is always to tell them to their face, no matter how much it hurts or offends them in the short term. Talking about it behind their back is always ruder.

Funny how that advice could apply to him to. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 16:42:00 UTC Reply

Because, again, he pretended he was someone else when he first asked me about these snarkings! He deceived me, and then used that to get back at me.

And I would also like to stress that I reviewed his fic with constructive criticism! He ignored it for the most part. I never got a reply back, and he continued writing in that nonsensical style of ignoring canon for the sake of his plot and then making the most illogical crossovers ever. And then, of course, he went dormant for a number of years and pulled this crap.

So don't you DARE imply that this was the result of me not telling him what the problems with his story were, because I did that and this still happened.

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Relax. I'm NOT saying he's any better than you. (nm) by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 16:55:00 UTC Reply

I'm not saying that you said that. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 17:03:00 UTC Reply

I'm just saying that it's very obtuse of you to insist "this is what happens when you don't give the authors you write PPC missions about some form of criticism" when I did that and the author still wrote the fic anyway.

Think about that.

Loks like we both misunderstood each other. by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 17:15:00 UTC Reply

I wasn't saying "this is what happens when you don't give the authors you write PPC missions about some form of criticism".

And I'm sorry if I accidentally gave that impression.

What I'm saying is "this is what happens if you don't tell the authors that your criticism includes a PPC mission."

After all, a mission is the ultimate form of criticism. That's the whole point of it. Why just give them "some form of criticism" and leave out the most important part of criticism?

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Because they get angry. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 17:23:00 UTC Reply

I know you're not very familiar with how authors taking criticism works on the internet, so allow me to bring you up to speed: a lot of them often get up in arms about being given concrit, and then they accuse you of flaming them or they try to deny that their problems really are the crippling problems that they are. Worse, some of them insult you in author's notes, and some of the other readers jump on the bandwagon when that happens. So authors get pissed. It doesn't matter if they say "leave a review": when they say that, what they're oftentimes actually saying is "tell me how awesome this is".

Trust me, I've seen badfic authors react badly to criticism more times than I've cared to count.

And mind you, this is just concrit we're talking about here. We haven't even gotten into how telling them about missions works. Which, as I would like to stress, is similar to what Jedi Qui-Gon here. You know, without the stage of intentional deception, making himself out into a martyr that he isn't, and talking out of his ass for the better part of six months.

In an ideal world, badfic authors would take the criticism to heart. But I'm sorry, Pippa's Ghost, I've seen enough badfic authors reply negatively to even calmly-given concrit that I know that cases of authors taking the criticisms to heart are few and far between.

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Oh yeah, I remember that well. by Lily Winterwood on 2014-06-26 05:16:00 UTC Reply

I know at least three Sherlock fanwriters whose stuff I've missioned have been made aware of aforementioned missions. Their reactions were not pretty. Even a couple other writers on whose pages I've left concrit have flipped out at me in PM.

That being said I've also encountered writers who take concrit well, and those are the ones who will survive the winter.
OK by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 17:50:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I'm not a fanfic writer so I've not joined any fanfic sites (at least not until recently). And, of course, not being a member, I couldn't post any reviews at all. So, yeah I don't any direct experience of this.

But since becoming involved with the PPC I have actually joined the Pit, so I really should be posting reviews there. Both the concrit, and more importantly, the flames (BTW I'm assume the flames are most important part because, like you said, the authors always mention the flames in the Author's Notes, but never mention any concrit.)

And it'll be such a relief to finally say honestly and openly about how the author should have all their fingers broken and their eyes poked out so that they never write anything ever again, rather than feel guilty about sneakily thinking those thoughts to myself.

But anyway, whatever I do, I'll let you know how it goes.

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I've been open by zdimensia on 2014-06-12 18:04:00 UTC Reply

Well, I've been openly meen in the past, but that was frustration at other people gushing about my work when I knew it was bad and they still gushed when I handed out weaponry to rip it apart with.

Only bit me once, and that person did the most annoying thing by passive-aggressively posting one-word reviews. I didn't apologize, but I did do a fan-art for their trollfic.

And no one deserves to be prevented from writing again. Some people do deserve to be told to read a book and possibly take a class.

Hey Pippa, if the targets are going to know about it, maybe you should found a Sue-hunting organization that isn't officially affiliated with the PPC. I'd take on yet another pen-name to be part of both.

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Eeep... by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 19:01:00 UTC Reply

Could you imagine what a Sue-hunting organisation founded by me would be like? I'm the last person you'd want doing that. There's no way my fantasies of violent hatred will ever be good leadership material!

I really hope you're joking. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 18:04:00 UTC Reply

Even then, it's not funny. If you truly go around hoping people will be grievously, traumatically injured because they can't write well, and you intend to tell them that, then you better just leave the PPC right now. Nobody here thinks that way, and to say such things to someone would be abusive. It's against the Constitution, and just wow, no, Do Not Want.

Consider this your one chance to stop, explain, and apologize.

~Neshomeh

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I thought the Constitution by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 18:37:00 UTC Reply

only applied to our official PPC activities (posts on the board, PPC stories and mission, etc.) And I wasn't planning to break the rules by mentioning the PPC in a review that contained some honest flames.

But are you saying it applies to everything we do and say in the rest of our lives? If so, that's a bit extreme. I didn't realise that. Still, if that's the case, I'll obey it anyway. (Although Article 27 seems to suggest that "antagonising people outside the community" is OK just as long as we don't crow about it here afterwards. What is the exact situation?)

But, since it turns out that flames aren't the accepted fanfic-site review etiquette after all, you needn't worry. It looks like I won't be doing them after all.

Hope that

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Frankly... by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 19:18:00 UTC Reply

Forget I mentioned the Constitution. The point is that I am extremely uncomfortable being around someone who thinks honestly wishing bodily harm on other people could ever be okay whether it's public or private, against the rules or not. Seriously wanting to hurt people is not okay ever. If you really have those thoughts, I say to you with the utmost concern and sincerity, please seek professional help.

For the sake of clarity, this is me giving you the benefit of the doubt. The alternative is that you are trolling us, poking us with a stick until we have no choice but to bite. You've indicated in the past that you think such behavior is a right and noble pastime. If that's the case—if you're trying to see how far you can string us along until we kick you out—we will bite, rest assured. Personally, I've got about one shred of doubt left for you. No more.

~Neshomeh

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I'm already getting professional help by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 20:10:00 UTC Reply

And, since you're brining up previous threads, I did mention previously that I've got a history of mental heath problems. You should've seen me years ago, before I got help! (Actually, it's probably better that you didn't. It was not good)

No, they just call concrit "flames" too. by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 18:03:00 UTC Reply

And really, Pippa? Really?

"And it'll be such a relief to finally say honestly and openly about how the author should have all their fingers broken and their eyes poked out so that they never write anything ever again, rather than feel guilty about sneakily thinking those thoughts to myself."

Oh, I dunno, maybe that's because we secretly don't think those things? It's called "hyperbole", Pippa. We don't like bad fanfics, sure, but we're not actually sadistic enough to want to do that to ourselves just because of bad fiction.

Really? You think that's our attitude about this? I'm not sure you fully understand what the PPC is about if that's the case.

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Thanks for clearing that up. by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 18:46:00 UTC Reply

Thanks for clearing that up about the flames. It looks like I made a bit of a fool of myself there. :-( Oh well. Never mind.

That's over the line, Pippa by Phobos on 2014-06-12 18:03:00 UTC Reply

"And it'll be such a relief to finally say honestly and openly about how the author should have all their fingers broken and their eyes poked out so that they never write anything ever again, rather than feel guilty about sneakily thinking those thoughts to myself."

That is way over the line. We never wish harm on the author. We don't even joke about it. I don't care what you think about in your own head, as long as this sort of thing never makes it to a PPC-related site ever again.

This is non-negotiable.

-Phobos

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Ok Ok by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 18:40:00 UTC Reply

I won't mention it on the board again.

And I promise I'll spend time looking at the reviews on fanfic sites before posting them, and stick to whatever is the normal, accepted etiquette for them.

Whoa, dial it back. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 16:53:00 UTC Reply

I know this is personal for you and it's been a problem for some time, but let's not descend into shouting at each other, please. Letting this guy incite a flame war between PPCers would be the height of victory for him and the depths of foolishness for us.

~Neshomeh

We're not doing it for them. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 16:36:00 UTC Reply

Concrit is for the authors. Missions are for us, maybe even fandom at large—but never for the individual author being sporked. I'm pretty sure no one in the history of ever read a satire directed at them and went, "Oh, these guys make some good points. I shall take this to heart with joy and gratitude, and henceforth change my ways!" It doesn't work that way. The point of satire is to change society's mind, not the object of the satire.

For the love of all that's holy, please don't go around waving missions under the author's noses. If you feel the need to communicate, do it with concrit. If you bring a bunch of angry, flaming authors down on the Board, we will not appreciate it.

~Neshomeh

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Satire...? by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 16:53:00 UTC Reply

Got to admit, I never thought of it as satire. Like I said, when I first joined the board, I thought of this as an extreme form of literary criticism, like a MST but with added violence. (Or, more precisely, it's a way of demonstrating that a story is so bad that there's no possible redemptive reading of it, by literally putting characters in it and having them fail to find anything good.)

** Trying to make the mental shift to thinking in terms of satire... **

OK, so, most satirists' victims are aware of the satire. Can you name even one famous satirist who operated in total secrecy? Harold McMillan was aware that Peter Cook existed. Margaret Thatcher knew about Spitting Image. etc. etc. They didn't feel "joy and gratitude", but that's the point. They weren't supposed to.

And how can you change society if you make sure that all you ever do is preach to the converted?

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We do keep getting new members somehow. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-12 17:33:00 UTC Reply

Out of everyone who reads a mission, we can assume there are (basically) four groups:

1. Loved it so much they decided to join.
2. Enjoyed it, but not enough to comment.
3. Disliked it, but not enough to comment.
4. Hated it so much they decided to lash out.

We know that non-PPCers read missions because some of them either join up or do something to let us know they hate us. I'm assuming total readership represents a bell curve, though, because that's usually how this sort of thing works, so there must be plenty of people in group 2 who read and learn from missions without saying anything directly about it; they just silently go on to write better fic, having learned what sorts of things to avoid. (Meanwhile, there are probably people in group 3 who learn to improve in other ways and people in group 2 who enjoy without learning anything, but that's beside the point.)

So that's how missions effect change even though we don't inform individual authors about them.

I don't know if I buy that all satire is public. Certainly the famous satirists we've all heard of were, but not everyone can be famous.

But, lemme try putting it another way: When it comes to who sees a mission and who sees concrit, the question should be who stands to benefit from it. Fic authors do not stand to benefit from seeing a mission to their fic—they stand to take it personally and be insulted and angry. People who are not the author, and especially other PPCers, do stand to benefit, because they'll be able to enjoy the huor and appreciate the instructive parts without taking it personally.

On the other hand, fic authors do stand to benefit from concrit given in a polite and level manner. So, if you really care about giving advice and helping individual writers improve, the best tool for that job is concrit, not a mission. (And as Herr points out, even that doesn't always work. In those cases a mission wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell.)

~Neshomeh

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I'm not interested in helping them by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 18:14:00 UTC Reply

After all, there are already plenty of mediocre-or-better writers in the world. Why do we need more?

No, I'm interested in discouraging the bad writers from ever writing anything ever again. That's far more useful and productive. And how are we going to do that without confronting them, either with a mission or with some decent, honest truths (or "flames" as we're supposed to call them nowadays)?

As for how people discover the PPC, I was vaguely aware of it back in the day, when TOS was still on the Pit. (I remember being annoyed that Jay and Acacia thought Kes was a silly name for a bird of prey, indicating that they'd never even heard of A Kestrel for a Knave.) But when it was taken off in the Pit's big purge along with most of the MSTs, it was the MSTs that I missed most, as I was a massive MSTie. (Sorry that was such a tongue twister!)

I had no idea the PPC was still going at all, until I stumbled across the entry in TV Tropes earlier this year. If you were more public, I would've probably found you a lot sooner.

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I vehemently disagree by zdimensia on 2014-06-12 18:38:00 UTC Reply

Saying that we already have enough decent of anything sounds lazy and risks leaving prodigies in the chaff along with all those who might be just good enough to help elevate other mediocre writers into the higher categories.

As far a discouraging bad writers, your method is just going to trample the timid without any concern for those who could be great if they just grew a shell. And you're not doing anything to those who are stubborn, except possibly make them more resistant to honest crit.

Something that I take personally: Wondering if the world is full of people like you who think I'm not worth the bother, and that's why I keep getting patted on the head instead of any useful advice.

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me too by 7.65x54R on 2014-06-12 23:57:00 UTC Reply

I've been discouraged twice from my writing.

it hurts like heck,so I wouldn't bother trying to say those kinds of things to other writers.
Don't worry by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 18:54:00 UTC Reply

You're a good enough writer that no-one will ever want to discourage you. You really should be encouraged. So, sorry if I personally upset you. That wasn't intended.

Wondering how you know by zdimensia on 2014-06-13 02:50:00 UTC Reply

When I took it personally, it didn't mean I was overly upset.

Disc... Discour... by Herr Wozzeck on 2014-06-12 18:26:00 UTC Reply

*headdesk*

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, No! NO! No no no no NO!!! NO!! NO-HOHO! NO! NO! And now I throw this NO onto my NO!!!!!!!

I seriously hope you're joking about this, or somehow misrepresenting what we're trying to say in a misguided attempt to make a point. Because if you actually believe that our mission is to discourage badfic authors from ever writing again, then not only are you completely misunderstanding what we're about, you're proving Jedi Qui-Gon right. I have riffed lots of bad fanfic with the PPC, but the one thing I have never, ever done is to seriously discourage anyone from writing. That is bad form on every account.

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No, we don't tell people when we spork their story. by doctorlit on 2014-06-12 16:09:00 UTC Reply

Doing so would be like taunting them, rubbing it in their faces. That leads to hurt feelings and a bad image for our community.

If you want to offer constructive criticism to an author before doing a mission for their fic, that's fine. But don't mention the PPC while doing so, and please, please never tell someone you're using their story for satirical mockery.

What? by Pippa's Ghost on 2014-06-12 16:21:00 UTC Reply

Are you seriously saying that? Please tell me you're joking.

Yes, we should offer criticism to the authors. But MSTs and Missions are just extreme literary criticism written in fictional form. That's the whole point of them. So what's the point of doing this criticism if we don't give the author the chance to see it?

And if you believe missions are "using their story for satirical mockery" and that this is bad, then "using their story for satirical mockery and not even have the basic decency of giving them the right to reply" is twice as bad.

When I finally get round to writing missions, I will always have the good manners to give to authors a link to the mission after I've posted it. Because I at least try to have good standards of decent behaviour (even if I don't always succeed.)

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To put it bluntly... by PoorCynic on 2014-06-12 17:27:00 UTC Reply

You are incorrect.

"...MSTs and Missions are just extreme literary criticism written in fictional form. That's the whole point of them."

That is not what MSTs and missions are for. That has never been what they are for.

The original Mystery Science Theater 3000 was not meant to stand as a form of film criticism. The directors of those films never watched the series and went "Ah, I see what they mean. An excellent point!" It was entertainment aimed at a (niche) audience, pure and simple.

I've been a part of a few MST communities over the years. We never sent the authors copies of the things they wrote. Telling the authors only lead to people coming in and raising a stink. Besides, they weren't the audience. The community was.

If you want to legitimately criticize an author's work, write actual criticism. Most of us do that in addition to our missions. But the missions are just meant for the community. They aren't criticism. To call them "criticism" is to neither understand what a mission is nor what actual legitimate criticism consists of.

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Important! Please Read! by Phobos on 2014-06-12 15:48:00 UTC Reply

I do not want to see anyone trying the "Vigilante Justice" approach to this. It never ends well, and only serves to make the situation worse.

Do not post to this person.

Complain here on the Board, but for the love of all that is holy: Leave it alone. This isn't even the first time something like this has happened.

-Phobos, who is sick of people going off half-cocked and making a mess for everyone else to clean up.

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