Subject: The Toucan Limit is Brilliant
Author:
Posted on: 2014-02-16 14:45:00 UTC
It's just great. That's all.
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On triggering missions... by
on 2014-02-16 08:07:00 UTC
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Is there any sort of protocol for when Agents are inexplicably triggered by the mission they're serving on? Because I'm working on one fic that begins the relationship between Spock and the Sue with all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship, and Christianne is starting to get triggered.
Where they are isn't a blatant breach in the Canon (it's only the 3rd chapter, and the first obvious breach is in chapter 12), other than the gross misuse of the term t'hy'la and your standard misuse of soulmates. Would it be wise to kill the Sue now or to wait out the triggering parts in a convenient plothole? -
PSST. BETAS WANTED. by
on 2014-02-17 07:40:00 UTC
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This mission is now completed and I need some betas to look it over before I post it. The mission is set in Reboot Trek. Any takers?
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I will! by
on 2014-02-18 00:17:00 UTC
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While I'm only moderately familiar with Star Trek, hopefully I'll still be helpful here.
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I volunteer! by
on 2014-02-17 18:30:00 UTC
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I own both of the reboot films, and am moderately familiar- if not exactly keen on the reboot, but I'm willing to beta for it! Email is BattleNOSPAMaubergine @ gmail . com remove spaces and NOSPAM.
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Added you to the doc. (nm) by
on 2014-02-17 18:32:00 UTC
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Beta by
on 2014-02-17 18:25:00 UTC
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I'll do it. It's not my primary fandom set, but I know quite a bit about star trek, old and new.
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Chuck me thy email. (nm) by
on 2014-02-17 18:31:00 UTC
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email by
on 2014-02-17 20:29:00 UTC
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mkkeener@mail.com
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Added you to the doc. (nm) by
on 2014-02-17 20:52:00 UTC
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I don't think there's protocol as such... by
on 2014-02-16 09:17:00 UTC
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... But I will of course defer to those older and wiser than me.
An Agent being triggered could make for many kinds of interesting stories, depending on what you want to do with it.
Would it be an option to hide somewhere and just watch the Words? Or for Christianne to stuff her ears and close her eyes and just let Eledhwen watch the bad parts and tap her on the shoulder when they are over? -
That seems to be the current game plan. by
on 2014-02-16 21:50:00 UTC
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On a somewhat-related note, any idea how to contact Tungsten Monk to see if I can borrow the concept of the Fictionary? I need an excuse for Christianne to suddenly be able to determine what is canonical and what isn't in this mission; she's only versed in the reboot movies and the Original Series, and I'm imagining her pulling out Trek trivia from the Fictionary like one would go about using the Memory Alpha wikia.
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Yep, you're good. by
on 2014-02-17 19:29:00 UTC
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Tungsten says, "It seems to be fairly new tech, though, so there'll likely be some problems. The way I had it written, it can only install one universe at a time, and swapping cartridges rapidly may cause problems. So I'd say to be careful taking it on crossover missions."
You may or may not need to swap cartridges for the various Trek spinoffs and the reboot. "It would probably have one universe at a time loaded, but identify things as not-of-that-universe. So reboot!Spock in an Original Series fic wouldn't get analyzed, but display something along the lines of 'Universe Error, Displaced Foreign Canon' or something. To be honest, I hadn't considered it; there might be a more efficient cartridge being developed now that can handle the load. I'd say Rule of Funny applies."
I made a wiki page for the Pocket Fictionary for future reference. {= )
~Neshomeh -
Oooh. by
on 2014-02-17 19:35:00 UTC
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What I have is that Christianne is using the Fictionary to give her a better understanding of the Trek canon as a whole, kinda like a pocket version of the Memory Alpha wikia.
Maybe her Fictionary unit has some way of inputting searchwords to tell her if the things are canonical or not? It could tell her sarcastically that something's about as canonical as a cuddly Klingon or something. -
I recommend... by
on 2014-02-17 20:10:00 UTC
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reading "Tough to Take" to get a better idea of how it works. I don't think it's sophisticated enough for a word search; or at least, the original model wasn't. In any case, I'd be wary of making it so awesomely useful that it's an acceptable replacement for someone who actually knows the canon. It shouldn't make their job too easy, and it shouldn't be an exposition crutch for the writer; that way lies the deus ex machina that Diocletian was afraid of.
~Neshomeh -
It's not that particularly DeM, as far as I know. by
on 2014-02-17 20:20:00 UTC
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Here's the scene in question:
“Did you bring a Fictionary with you?” wondered Eledhwen.
“Yeah. How else would I know this much about a Canon I’ve barely set foot in?” Christianne took out the Fictionary with a flourish – it had taken on the appearance of a PADD for the occasion – and started inputting the queries, her tongue poking out from between her teeth.
There was an irritated buzzing noise. Christianne groaned, fumbling in her pack to resurface with a bag of cartridges. Eledhwen raised an eyebrow.
“Do you require assistance?”
“I left the Voyager cartridge in,” muttered Christianne as she removed the cartridge from the Fictionary and replaced it with the Reboot cartridge. “Damn thing, needing me to load separate cartridges. What’s the point? Why isn’t there wifi on these damn missions so that I can check things on Memory Alpha instead? Much more streamlined.” Another buzzing noise. “None of those are Reboot canon. I’m not that surprised. All right...”
Eledhwen watched on in amusement as Christianne began swapping the cartridges while muttering curses under her breath.
“Yes, I know Spock’s here, yes I know he’s from a different continua from The Next Generation. Go play with a cactus, damn you –” The Fictionary beeped, smoke starting to emerge from its casing. Spock looked at it with a mixture of distrust and surprise; Christianne glared at him before returning to her inputting and cursing.
“If DoSAT doesn’t come up with the streamlined cartridge soon, I swear on the spinning body of Tolkien – ah, yes,” she said after a moment. “No results for any of the canons. All of that was just a load of bull –”
“In essence, she does pose a threat to the security of the Enterprise,” interrupted Eledhwen. Christianne stuck her tongue out at her. -
This raises new questions. by
on 2014-02-18 05:45:00 UTC
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I'd offer to beta at this point, but it looks like you've already got three people and I've recently discovered I don't like working in a crowd, so:
1. It seems like you're introducing the Fictionary some way into the story. If Christianne appears to have been getting by without the Fictionary being mentioned until this point, what purpose does it serve to introduce the device at all? Why not just let her be competent?
2. If Christianne appears competent enough with the canon that her partner doesn't question it for some time, how much is she relying on the Fictionary? If she's using it a lot, how is it that Eledhwen doesn't notice?
3. It looks like the ability to enter queries is allowing the agents to avoid scanning characters directly. This is not how the Fictionary was originally conceived. Is it a better story this way, or just easier?
Obviously I don't have all the information, so feel free to disregard these if they're covered in the story already, but otherwise please give it some careful thought before you decide you're done editing. {= )
~Neshomeh
P.S. I debated saying anything, since this isn't really my wheelhouse, but I'm going to: Do be careful with triggers. I'm kinda of the opinion that there are two types: 1) the real PTSD sort of thing that can seriously psychologically compromise someone and requires hard work to overcome, and 2) the fake kind that people think they have because they believe they should never be upset by anything ever. I figure you're talking about the real deal, and that's serious, so it bears the risk of either making things too grim and unfun, or else being treated too lightly and coming off as fake. Tread softly, for here there be dragons. -
But this is! by
on 2014-02-18 12:35:00 UTC
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This, I mean.
hS, unable to resist a literal metaphor -
Five people, actually. So it is a bit of a crowd. by
on 2014-02-18 05:57:00 UTC
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But if you want me to toss it over via email, I can give you a separate doc all to yourself.
1) From what I understand, she's been garnering wiki-esque trivia from the Canon Library and/or the Fictionary about this canon (she says she left the Voyager cartridge in because she just looked up the Starfleet Handbook on Personal Relationships), but like the rest of us, she's never quite sure when the species named by a Sue is canonical or not and needs to check. Hence the Fictionary, because is there another device that serves as a guide to the continuum?
2) She's competent enough when it directly applies to AOS and TOS, but she wants to make sure those species names are uncanonical. Would be embarrassing to charge for them if they were obscure species found in Deep Space Nine or something.
3) Those species don't come into play (and so cannot be scanned) until way later on in the story, and given the fact that Christianne's not in a great spot with the mission it seems for the best that they kill the Sue before all of that stuff with the uncanonical species happens. They have more than enough charges to justify the killing, IMHO.
If those aren't justifiable excuses for using the Fictionary, I could always come up with some other tech so Christianne can run her background checks.
And as for triggers, she has an anxiety attack and has to sit out a portion of the mission in a plothole before resuming the mission. Bleepesteem is involved. So far none of the betas have had issue with it, but that might change. -
Actually... by
on 2014-02-18 15:27:00 UTC
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This has reminded me that I told Herr I'd beta something for him last week, and completely forgot about it in the midst of the Tripod issue and then getting swept up in the Medieval Board AU, so I should really do that first. My apologies to both of you. >.
Based on what's here, though, I think the main issue for me is that you're going pretty far out of your way (and the Fictionary's) to work in a charge the agents don't need and aren't actually going to witness first-hand. My reading of TOS strongly suggests that agents must witness the charges, and things they don't witness cannot be charged for—there are multiple times when Jay or Acacia mentions something coming up in the fic and the other one goes "drat, now we have to go watch it so we don't miss any charges." This rule is what forces them to go on missions in the first place rather than just MSTing the badfic from the safety of their RC, so it's pretty important. But, aside from that, if you don't need that charge to make the mission work, it seems like a lot of trouble (and words) to spend on something ultimately insignificant.
As a workaround, I'd suggest that the agents can just as well gripe about the most-likely-uncanonical species without actually charging for them. It gets the same message across to the audience ("what's the point in tossing out names no one will recognize when there are already dozens of known canonical species available for name-dropping?") without having to make the Fictionary jump through hoops so it can be an actual charge.
~Neshomeh -
Oh, since they were in a plothole with Spock at the time... by
on 2014-02-18 16:57:00 UTC
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...of them griping about the uncanonical species, I had them ask the not-replaced Spock if he's ever heard of the species in question. Would that count as an observation (via asking characters) or do they still have to directly witness the things to charge for them?
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Okay, so I can write out the Fictionary for that one. by
on 2014-02-18 16:33:00 UTC
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But there are two earlier instances where Christianne uses the Fictionary. I'll put them here; the second one I think I might actually need something to wave it at for her to get the info.
“No, don’t!”
Eledhwen raised an eyebrow. “Why not?” she demanded.
“Chocolate’s intoxicating to Vulcans!”
Eledhwen paused. “Really?” she asked, the Bleepolate halfway to her mouth.
“I’m pretty sure I read it somewhere,” began Christianne, before pulling out something that looked like a PADD and putting what looked like a Game Boy cartridge into it. She aimed the device at Eledhwen. There were a couple beeping noises and a puff of smoke, and Christianne emerged from said smoke with a couple coughs, a grimace, and an answer. “However, the Fictionary informs me that in an episode of Deep Space Nine this barkeep dude named Quark offered chocolate and Vulcan port to some Vulcan who dropped by his bar. Port’s a sweet sort of wine, so I’m guessing Vulcan port has a lot more sugar than other sorts of alcohol, which would explain why Vulcans are immune to alcohol, but not to – what?” She scowled at Eledhwen, who was grinning at her.
“If this makes me inebriated, and the fic is purported to be as bad as you seem to think, then do you not find it logical that I should face it in a better state of mind?” the elleth-turned-Vulcan asked with amusement in her eyes as she popped a piece of Bleepolate into her mouth.
And the second scene:
In the Words, Pike gave Spock permission to court Seraphina.
[...]
As they watched, Spock exited the office to go teach his next class. Christianne pursed her lips and spoke up again.
“Anyway, before I got distracted by soppy romanticised abuse,” she said, with a small shudder that Eledhwen frowned at, “I was going to say that I thought it was the CMO that approved interpsecies relationships.”
“Really?” wondered Eledhwen. “Where does it state that?”
“I...” Christianne paused, fumbled for the Fictionary-disguised-as-PADD again, and inputted something again. There was a buzzing noise; Christianne growled, before removing a cartridge and replacing it with another. “Aha. Here it is. Starfleet Handbook of Personal Relationships. He’s gotta clear this with a medical officer before he goes boinking someone who isn’t his species. Or only half of his species. Admittedly, from what the Fictionary tells me this was only mentioned in the Voyager era, so that might not be a thing.”
“Still a logical precaution, though,” Eledhwen pointed out. “Remember when we first made our relationship known?”
“Nurse Hearth had us in for The Talk. I had never been more uncomfortable in my life,” agreed Christianne drily.
And for the bit you saw, I can have her complain about DoSAT not making the Fictionary more streamlined and like a wiki instead of just a CAD with extra snark. Because I'm under the impression that Christianne is a fairly spoiled Agent in terms of tech, and would rather just have a smartphone device where all her tech are apps.
(that sounds interesting and would probably lead to Issues in the PPC amongst the older generation of Agents.) -
Sounds about right. by
on 2014-02-17 20:05:00 UTC
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It makes similar commentaries in its previous appearance, and being able to look up and compare canonicity of certain in-universe concepts seems like a logical extension of its previous pseudo-CAD readout function, with the added bonus that the new function would cause the Fictionary's name to make a little more sense. As it is now, it's more like an Electronic Handbook of the People of _____ Universe.
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I'm sure you can use it. by
on 2014-02-17 15:12:00 UTC
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I think the unwritten rule is that any new PPC tech is free to use unless stated otherwise, like Flowers. But, since I'm going to talk to her this afternoon anyway, I'll ask just to be extra-sure. {= )
~Neshomeh -
Fictionary... by
on 2014-02-18 04:04:00 UTC
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Reading the wiki page, what's supposed to really make it distinct from a CAD, aside from it occasionally getting snippy at the agents?
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I don't understand the question. by
on 2014-02-18 04:39:00 UTC
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Are you concerned about the writing of the article, or the device itself? 'Cause it's pretty clear to me what the differences are, but I read the source material, sooo... O.o
~Neshomeh -
Waaaaait nevermind I get it. by
on 2014-02-18 04:55:00 UTC
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Sorry. I'm stupid like that; realised the purpose of the device only after publicly questioning said purpose. :P
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Moreso the device, yeah. by
on 2014-02-18 04:45:00 UTC
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Basically, what I was saying reading it over (wiki page and mission, which I'm rereading to be sure) is it didn't seem to do much that CADs don't, aside from going into a bit more detail. That could be my head being all stuffy though.
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Invoke Starfleet regulation 619. by
on 2014-02-16 08:36:00 UTC
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If an agent is past their Toucan Limit*, extract the operative and send in a replacement. An emotionally comprimised Agent cannot possibly hope to fulfill the Duty as per regulations. It's better than overdosing on Bleepto-Dismal, at any rate.
Just kidding. It's up to you, I guess. I don't think we've ever had a precedent for this situation before, but don't quote me on that.
*The Toucan Limit: the point where a person loses their ability "to can". -
The Toucan Limit is Brilliant by
on 2014-02-16 14:45:00 UTC
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It's just great. That's all.
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Hm. by
on 2014-02-16 08:44:00 UTC
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The relationship itself isn't abusive, but the beginning of it is. Spock inadvertently mind-rapes the Sue to find out she's his soulmate, acts possessive of her and tells her not to see other people, instructs her not to lie to her, and informs her that since she's his t'hy'la she can't withold consent from him, etc. The Sue's own family situation presents us with a mother who'd put Mrs Bennett from Pride and Prejudice to shame, who wouldn't protest the Sue getting into any sort of relationship.
So yeah. It really opens dubiously, so if there was any Toucan limit to pass, the moment should've already happened. But if it happens, and I do have her step aside to let someone else deal with the rest of the fic, I definitely know some replacement Agents who know the canon and can deal, since they normally work in DAVD. -
Hoo boy, sounds like a doozy. by
on 2014-02-16 09:01:00 UTC
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That's some pretty messed up stuff coming from Spock. Not being given the option to withhold consent because of some Vulcan soulmate voodoo? That's some prime crazy right there.
Let me guess: he's heavily possessed or full-on replaced in the fic, right? -
As he is also a major sappy horndog, by
on 2014-02-16 09:02:00 UTC
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I would veer on the side of replacement. It reminds me or Stulock Holmes too much to be mere Possession.
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Sappy stuff is the worst. by
on 2014-02-16 09:12:00 UTC
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I've never been a taker for a romance subplot: I found it distracts us from the awesome action we could be seeing. Plus, there's just so many ways it could go horribly wrong, as evidenced by most badfics involving Lust Objects.
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It's funny because I'm using this mission to develop... by
on 2014-02-16 17:26:00 UTC
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...my Agents' relationship. There are still discussions that they haven't had, despite this mission taking place months after the Blackout.
Romance subplots are cool, but this is less of a subplot and more of a plot. A bad plot, but still a plot. There's stuff about the Sue's bracelet being Speshul later, which heralds something like an actual non-romantic plot, but it creates three entire species to get at it. -
Whaaat? by
on 2014-02-17 05:32:00 UTC
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Star Trek has any number of unrealized species already! I'm not even sure how many of them are only consisting of names, and thus could easily be hijacked by any prospective writers, Suvian or otherwise, and given pretty much any traits one wanted! Then again, I hardly expect a Suefic to spend more than maybe a minute or two on research, even if it's just a brief check-over on a Star Trek wiki, so I'm not sure why this is working me up as much as it is.
On a related note, do any of these new species appear in the story at all, or do they only just show up in exposition? Because if they do make physical appearances, I'm wondering whether they'd materialize in-mission as Generic Star Trek Aliens, like Quen and Natalie Green were at their recruitment, or whether they'd take on appearances related to whatever brief characterization they were given in the story. -
They appear after we do the Duty. by
on 2014-02-17 05:58:00 UTC
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It's too painful for my Agent to tough it out to when the uncanonical aliens appear. Christianne's already had a panic attack, and they've gotten more than enough charges.
But still, good food for thought. -
of* (nm) by
on 2014-02-16 09:03:00 UTC
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Not inexplicably. More like inadvertently. Bluh. (nm) by
on 2014-02-16 08:11:00 UTC
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