Subject: Since it appears that you're still working on Netilardo,
Author:
Posted on: 2014-02-06 18:27:00 UTC
Is there enough information to do an entry on the Watcher in the Water?
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Can we make our own Ring of Power? by
on 2014-02-02 15:32:00 UTC
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Sauron could do it, Saruman is rumoured to do it, what stopped us? Other than lack of knowledge of course.
Throughout reading the Silmarillion, it seems like you only need technical or magical knowhow to craft a ring to project and perhaps amplify your power and skills throughout the world. But elves and humans may have restrictions on utilising the knowledge.
You need to pour your spirit into the ring to make one, so you have a very high risk of death. Or maybe human spiritual power is too paltry, so what we pour into the ring my only make us powerful enough as before we make the ring, making it pointless.
Or maybe there are essential ingredients on making the ring that is known to the Elves and Sauron, but humans have no access to. Repeating the same process without the ingredient may kill you off.
Or perhaps even the ring is useless after being made, except as a Horcrux. Since we aren't in full control of our spirit. Elves may be better on us on this department, but it maybe like splitting their body, as they live in mortal and spirit realm at the same time.
Now I have three scenarios for what would happen:
1. The ring amplifies the person's power, making him a proper human sorcerer. He may have amplified diplomacy skill, strength, agility, even lighter forms of prediction due to their enhanced ability to calculate the probabilities of anything happening.
2. The ring is useless when they use it, but when given to another person, they my become more and more like them. Give it to the right person, I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of US Presidents, Google CEOs, or even the Pope himself, and in a few years, the ringmaker's plan will come into fruition.
3. It's just plain useless except as a Horcrux. But it activates when the ringmaker dies and directly controls the body of the wearer.
What do you guys think? A good story can be made from either three scenarios. Although 3 is oft repeated already. -
Hmm. by
on 2014-02-04 07:01:00 UTC
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tl;dr: I don't think so.
In Tolkien's work, we see a huge distinction being drawn between the magic of the elves (and good, in general) and that of Sauron - in fact, the hobbits get called out on using the same word for both. The elves use their gifts for creation and sub-creation, producing new things to enrich the world. On the other hand, Sauron uses his power to control and corrupt. It's very telling that one of the first signs we get that the Numenorians are slipping under his influence is their thirst for immortality - desiring control of their own destinies by staving off death.
Of the Great Rings (the one, the three, the seven, and the nine), it's pretty clear that the ones Sauron had a hand in (the seven and the nine) exist to serve Sauron's power. The seven, perhaps not as much - although I'd be inclined to give that credit more to the dwarves, who were built to withstand the worst of Morgoth's evil, than to the rings themselves. I haven't seen anything regarding what happened to the smiths of those rings, but the size of the numbers and the similarities of the end result make me suspect that each of them definitely do not represent a fraction of the spirit of their crafters. They were made with the direct assistance of Sauron, which probably helped significantly.
The One Ring, on the other hand, pretty obviously represents a sizable piece of Sauron. It is arguably the most Powerful magical artifact to ever show up in Middle-Earth, and unquestionably heads that list if we remove artifacts made by the Valar themselves.
All but three of the Great Rings were produced by, or with the direct assistance of, Sauron. Much as I hate to say it, I doubt that our hypothetical human ring-smiths come close to his abilities or potential to produce power.
The three were, as I'm sure you are aware, not forged with Sauron's help. Celebrimbor, the second-greatest crafts-elf ever, made them on his own. As tends to be the case with Tolkien, his parents are important - he's the grandson of Feanor by way of Curufin, who was the most like his father. Celbrimbor's journeyman piece was a dragon's hoard of jewels, produced over the span of forty years in Nargothrond. Sadly, Glaurung showed up to provide the dragon for the aforementioned hoard, and we all know how that ended.
It's pretty clearly stated that the elves of Eregion during the second age were only outclassed in creative ability by Feanor himself, and Celebrimbor was the leading light of that group. He was very much his grandfather's grandson (even down to creating a set of three artifacts that Evil would go to great lengths to claim). Given that the three are distinct artifacts, made by the same smith, I rather doubt that any of them cost him part of his spirit, beyond what any artist puts into their masterwork.
As an aside - it's interesting to note that of the three bearers of the Three, they had three very different uses for their rings, and three different reactions to being offered the One Ring. Elrond, who did not use his ring overtly, was not hugely tempted by the One. Gandalf, who used his ring for Good (the creation of passion and inspiration) had more trouble resisting, but was able to use that to motivate Frodo. Galadriel, however, who had used her ring for the preservation of Lorien (see earlier notes on Numenor and the slide from preservation to control to corruption), had a significant struggle when offered the Ring, and spelled out in no uncertain terms what would happen if she claimed it. Anyways, back to the story.
The Great Rings were all either made with the direct assistance of a Maia, or by the greatest ring-smith of the age (and the second-greatest craftsman of all time). In comparison... humans really don't match up very well. There are some impressive feats of construction in human history (Orthanc and Minas Tirith, for example), but nothing that comes close to the artifacts created by the elves.
Thematically, great works of Creation aren't really a human thing - the Valar and Elves create great works, but to the humans are given the nebulous "other gifts" that aren't really explained beyond dying. We never see humans create even the most minor of artifacts of power, let alone something deserving a capitalized title or a place among the Great Rings.
So, no. I don't think that a human could make a Ring of Power, or even a ring of power. We never see humans using magic directly in LoTR (or the additional volumes, to my understanding), and even if one could, I doubt that any ring created by one would serve as more than a focusing device for their innate power. -
Humans and magic. by
on 2014-02-06 17:02:00 UTC
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Or rather, Edain and magic, since we know next to nothing about the Middle Men and Men of Darkness.
The biggest exception to 'men don't use magic' is the Druedain - the Drugs, or Woses, or Wild Men, or what have you. There's a lovely (if rather strange) story called The Faithful Stone, in which one of this sub-race of humanity imbues a stone effigy with his spirit, to the point where it can defend a house - but he suffers from its burns. That's a key point to remember when your spirit is involved - whatever happens to it, happens to you. Sauron found that out the hard way.
Other than that... there's the unusual case of Isildur's curse on the men of the White Mountains, which had the effect of binding their spirits to a location after they died. Again, we're looking at tying a soul to an object - the same trick used by Sauron to make the One, and, if I'm right, to power the Nine and Seven, and give the Three their abilities. So, in theory, at least one man (Isildur) and one race (the Druedain) have abilities that could allow them to make rings of power.
Except... there is nothing else comparable. The Witch-King has powerful magic - he broke the gate of Minas Tirith with lightning or somesuch - but he is augmented by a Ring, and by Sauron. Men of Numenor can make an indestructible form of black rock (Orthanc, the wall of Minas Tirith) - but we don't know if that's magic or engineering. And the only other magic I can think of is Elendil, who somehow locked one of his Palantiri so it could only look West - but that might be as simple as setting the thing in concrete so you can't rotate it.
Other than that, Mannish skill seems to lie in augmentation, not magic. Numenorean blades - like those found in the Barrow - are strong, light, and capable of wounding a body located in the Unseen realm... but is that magic, or craft?
Then, of course, you have Beorn, and the Beornings. They have a magical ability to transform into bears - but it's a difficult one to fit into the grand scheme of things. ;)
hS
(May try and write a more fully-researched version of this at some point; dunno) -
Those restrictions all seem to not be based on ability. by
on 2014-02-04 08:43:00 UTC
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From the looks of what you said, the Elves have better knowledge of how to craft magical items than humans as their default state, and the Maiar are more capable of creating magical items because they themselves are magic, whether that magic is the good or evil sort. Thus, if a human were hypothetically given the knowledge on how to infuse the rings with power, possibly by a particularly ambitious Elf or Maiar who planned to use the new Ring or Rings for their own purposes, there wouldn't be much stopping the humans from creating the Ring as long as they had smiths who were good at what they do. And there's really nothing saying there wouldn't be anyone who was. In fact, some of the advantages that humans have over Elves are industry and versatility. They might not have the ability to produce the most powerful items in the world, but they'd certainly be capable of optimizing what they can do if given the knowledge and resources to do so.
Of course, where they would get the power to infuse the Ring with becomes the bigger question. A magical being could just infuse the ring with a portion of their own essence, but as has been said elsewhere on this thread, humans probably would not be able to use their own power, simply because they wouldn't have enough to do anything useful. I wonder, though, if a crafter might be capable of tapping into the essence of many people at once while creating a Ring. A lone human wouldn't be able to infuse much energy into a Ring, and would probably die trying, but if a skilled enough smith infuses the Ring with portions of the latent power of an entire city, it could conceivably wrack up plenty of stored energy, enough to create a magical artifact that people would almost certainly refer to with capital letters. Of course, the act of leaching away people's spiritual energy to power a magical artifact would be inherently evil, but no one ever said that the smith in question got his Ring-making knowledge from the good guys. -
That's not what I'm saying... by
on 2014-02-05 04:48:00 UTC
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Magic, and especially magical artifacts, in Lord of the Rings does not work like conventional fantasy magic. The magical artifacts we see in the books were mostly created by Very Exceptional People - Aule (a Valar), Sauron (A Maiar), Feanor (the greatest craftsman to ever live), and Celebrimbor (the second-greatest craftsman to ever live). By the time you've left that incredibly rarified circle of craftsmen, you're down to magical artifacts that, at best, glow when enemies are around - and even those were created by master smiths of the greatest Elvish kingdom of Middle-Earth.
In comparison of ability at creating magical artifacts, there are no humans in Canon who can be described as "good at what they do". There are none who can be described as "reasonably competent", or even "amateur" - there are, in fact, no humans who create magical artifacts at all. There is no inclination given that humans have any ability in that direction. In fact, the one human who is described as having "the hands of a healer" - Aragorn - gets that from his elvish heritage. (And even that is relatively minor - healing goes well when he is involved. No D&D-esque healing spells here.)
And then there's the big-picture theme of the entire world. All of Lord of the Rings is about the Fall - from the religious scale of Morgoth's greed and evil down through Feanor and his sons, to Saruman and so many other characters in LotR proper. Arda is a land scarred from evil, anything but the beautiful vision that the Valar had before the dawn of time. The entire series follows this fall, as Arda slips from the grand, beautiful, and magical, into the mundane and human. This falling motion and humans' place in it makes me very, very skeptical of the thought that humans could Create magical artifacts of any sort.
So, no. It's not that elves have "better knowledge". It's that humans in LoTR don't work that way. LoTR itself doesn't work that way - fitting "and then humans made a Ring of Power, yay?" into it is pretty solidly against the theme of the world. -
Yes, but... by
on 2014-02-05 03:36:00 UTC
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...that leaves the question of controlling the Ring. When Sauron created the One Ring, he poured enough of his life force into it to make it immensely powerful. In the process, though, he also infused it with his own willpower, which creared no end of issues for Frodo and Co. Taking a bit of life force from a wide spectrum of people could actually weaken the Ring's power, if that many diluted willpowers were constantly struggling for dominance within it.
I'm doing a poor job of explaining.
Into each Ring went not only the maker's magic, but a bit of their personality as well. That's how Sauron influenced the Ringbearers. That's how he revealed Isildur in the river and turned all four Bearers against their own allies. How would the combination of a city's worth of personalities affect the power of a Ring? How would it influence the wearer if the wills of the maker's victims were at odds with one another? -
Ooh, you're right. by
on 2014-02-05 21:14:00 UTC
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Not a lot of details were apparently ever revealed about where specifically all but four of the Rings came from, but according to the Tolkien wikis I found, it's Sauron's unified consciousness that gives the twenty capital-letter Rings their power, because he was the one who told the original creators of the Rings how to craft them, and this connection to Sauron was so strong that they began to lose their magic when he was dethroned. Even if there's a possibility to make a Ring without inadvertently linking it with some Ainur's mind, which is complete speculation, if the force holding its magic in place is a chaotic mass of partial minds, that Ring's power would be disparate and lessened at best. More likely than not, since none of the constituent minds would have had much magical power to speak of, the new Ring's magic level would be negligible to nil.
I'm not sure how telling someone how to create something gives the person who provided the blueprints power over the finished product, but that's the way magic works in the Lord of the Rings universe, I suppose. I spoke from an ignorance of the details. -
I'm curious. by
on 2014-02-06 09:21:00 UTC
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Where did you (plural you) get the idea that all Rings of Power are created by implanting some of the maker's power into them? The only Ring that was ever said of was the One - which Sauron specifically created to control the others. The imbue-it-with-your-power trick was also used by Melkor on the whole of Middle-earth (rather harder to destroy, but also rather more diffuse).
I've never gotten the impression that the Sixteen were imbued with a person's power - or Sauron's specifically - and we flat-out know Sauron had nothing to do with the Three.
I suspect the wikis you found were referring to the corrupting power of the Rings. The reason the Sixteen enslaved people is because a) Sauron maybe put in a back door when he helped forge them, and b) the One was deliberately designed to control all the others. The Three, of course, didn't enslave their bearers - look at Narya, which was quite happily passed from Celebrimbor to Gil-Galad to Cirdan to Gandalf.
We know very little about how the Rings were forged, and what the nature of their power was - but I'm pretty sure we can safely say that stuffing your personality into it like a bejewelled horcrux was not part of the deal, unless you're a Dark Lord making one in your evil volcano fortress. I think even Celebrimbor would have baulked at splitting his mind into twenty (or many, many more - remember the lesser rings!) different fragments.
hS -
On Bejewled Horcruxes by
on 2014-02-06 20:26:00 UTC
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You're correct in saying that not all the rings were made Horcrux-style as Sauron's were, but seeing as that's the only method that was revealed in the canon, wouldn't that be the method we used as well? There are definitely other ways to do it, but not that Tolkien disclosed (to my knowledge, anyway).
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Are you saying that we don't need our souls inside it? by
on 2014-02-06 11:42:00 UTC
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This is my understanding of how they work. by
on 2014-02-06 15:37:00 UTC
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The Rings of Power, on Netilardo.
The summary version: the Rings of Power, fuelled by their bearer's desires, link themselves to said bearer (thus providing the bearer with immortality) and either shift the bearer entirely into the Unseen realm (the Sixteen and the One), or simply provide a conduit (the Three). Once given access to the Unseen - the realm of spirits - the bearers are essentially able to manipulate souls with their bare hands, which is pretty darn magical. Of course, when you come back, you leave a little of your body behind - and the Rings don't just use your desires, they amplify them...
I've tried, in the long version, to bring in all the known powers of the Rings and link them into the theory. I think it works.
hS -
Since it appears that you're still working on Netilardo, by
on 2014-02-06 18:27:00 UTC
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Is there enough information to do an entry on the Watcher in the Water?
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There's always enough information. by
on 2014-02-07 10:43:00 UTC
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What is the Watcher in the Water? Gandalf - the person most likely to know - has no idea; his only contribution is that 'the arms were all guided by one purpose' (obviously), and that he thinks it came from under the mountains. Surely we can do better than that!
A Giant Spider
Gandalf's description of the Watcher as 'older and fouler... than Orcs' suggests some form of primordial terror, of which the only one we know by name is Ungoliant. Like the Watcher, she possessed many legs (though admittedly, not the twenty seen on the Watcher). Many spiders can survive underwater for significant lengths of time - could the Watcher be one of Ungoliant's spawn, sister to Shelob, acclimated to its watery home after thousands of years?
Eh... probably not, in all honesty. But it seemed like an interesting idea.
The larval/adult form of the Fell Beasts
The other (nameless) creatures from the beginning of time are the fell beasts (Tolkien never capitalises it) ridden by the Nazgul. Could it be that, like mosquitos, they begin their life as a water-bound monstrosity, before shaking off the tentacled larval form and taking to the air? Or, alternately, could they shed their wings and settle into a sedentary lifestyle, feeding on passers-by?
Again, it seems unlikely - but at least the metamorphosis would explain the differences in appearance.
A Naiad
Or, more accurately, the nature-spirit of the Sirannon, a relative of Goldberry (the river-spirit of the Withywindle). We know that nature-spirits, or incarnations of landforms, can become malevolent - Caradhras - and even prehensile - Old Man Willow. It may be that, when the Sirannon became dammed, forming a massive stagnant lake, its spirit too became corrupted. Having previously used a humanoid or other form - or maybe even no corporeal form at all - it could have taken on a new aspect: a many-tentacled creature, 'pale-green and luminous and wet'.
The main problem with this theory is time. We know the Sirannon was free-flowing when Gandalf passed through Moria, sometime between 2850 and 2950. We know it was blocked by 2990, when Balin's Colony encountered the Watcher. Is less than 150 years long enough for a nature spirit to turn to evil, when it is already tens of thousands of years old? It seems rather unlikely. Apart from that, though, this is probably the most plausible theory, in terms of the way Arda works. The final theory, however, is far more thematically appropriate.
The Balrog
The Fellowship encounter three monsters in Moria. First, the Watcher under discussion. Second, the creature which duelled with Gandalf at Balin's tomb - the sorcerous shadow which nearly defeated him. Finally, the Balrog, Durin's Bane.
The latter two of these creatures are identical. Could the third one be, as well?
We know that the Watcher was more intelligent than it appears: Gandalf notes (to himself) that it reached first for Frodo the Ringbearer, suggesting a degree of magical sensitivity. We also know that the Balrog was cleverer than it looked - while it acts as little more than a monster at the Bridge, it earlier used magic as powerful as Gandalf's. Is it significant that the Watcher is said to have been sleeping at the far end of the lake? Could it, in fact, have still been partly asleep?
It is significant, in light of this theory, that Pippin aroused the Balrog by dropping a stone down a well. Wells don't usually lead to underground caverns full of orcs - they lead to underground streams. After four days, the Watcher/Balrog may have convinced itself that it had imagined the Fellowship - until a pebble came clattering down onto its head as it roamed through the waterways.
Thematically, it seems appropriate for the only monster to be the Balrog - and it also displays a very specific path through its attributes. Consider:- The Balrog, at Balin's tomb, is a creature of shadow.
- At the Bridge, the Balrog bursts into flame.
- On the Bridge, we read that 'The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew'; it reverts to shadow.
- When Gandalf describes his fight with the Balrog underwater, he speaks of it as 'a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake'.
- Finally, on the mountaintop, the Balrog bursts back into full flame.
The key point is the 'thing of slime' section: it has no parallel in the story beforehand. It takes place underwater, and describes the Balrog as snake-like. This description doesn't fit the Balrog - but it matches exactly what we know of the Watcher in the Water. Furthermore, by placing the Watcher at the beginning of the sequence, we form a perfect, symmetric pattern: first slime and water, then shadow, then flame, then shadow again, and finally back to slime and water before the climactic battle. Thematically - and mythologically - it works very well.
Of course, this theory neatly invalidates an argument about Balrog wings made by the Encyclopedia of Arda: that we can draw an analogy with tentacles. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy...
hS -
Beliefs in spirits and 'pagan' deities are still here... by
on 2014-02-06 16:23:00 UTC
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In the modern world. So we could have a Maia, still working or dallying around in this world, reveals to a human how the rings of power was made. Then the human tried to remake a new ring of power, but instead someone unsavoury occurs. And the ring becomes a series of horror movies, not to be confused with The Ring.
The Eastern worlds, whether Asian, Australian, Polynesian, or numerous others, are still connected to their mythology, so they could meet some spirits along the way. Base on Our-World-as-The-Seventh-Age hypothesis. If you read a few stories of orang bunian, you may find uncanny similarities with Tolkien's Quendi.
'Sorcery' could also literally be deceits, such as politicking, lying, manipulation, and social engineering. -
Wait, I'm confused. by
on 2014-02-06 21:04:00 UTC
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I managed to find out what you were saying regarding a Seventh Age fairly quickly(and on a related note, the numbering system is off for whoever decided these Ages. The first set of Ages that were given names lasted for centuries at a time, and the supposed "Sixth Age" only lasted for less than fifty years, with no huge world-shift between the alleged Sixth and Seventh as happened before the beginning of any preceding Ages), but I'm not sure what you're describing here. A Maia survivor meets a human several thousand years after the elves sailed away and the dwarves presumably went extinct, teaches him how to make a ring, but someone interrupts him partway through, and then the partial ring becomes a successful horror movie director? I feel like I'm missing a couple of steps here. Did someone put on the ring, unwittingly tap into its Maia progenitor's dark history, and use that knowledge to create the franchise? Is it the same guy who interrupted the Ring-making process?
This entire line of thought has given me a mental image of a group of Maia discreetly mingling with humans for millennia, only for a few of their number deciding one day to try and market the history of their species as a television series. They would have only the faintest idea of how the process works, and there would probably be some shenanigans as they try to prevent themselves from vaporizing some sleazy entertainment executives and try to secure the most accurate reproduction of their history. People want to change things, but they don't want to allow it, because it's history, but the people adapting the series wouldn't know that it was history. More shenanigans! Wait, no, the humans probably would know about at least some of these events. Wouldn't there be some kind of fossil record of all of the fell beasts and giant dragons and mysterious really short people? Would it just be covered up by some sort of nebulous government body, and the Maia's attempt to produce their television series unwittingly attracts the attention of that group, who have realized that one of the new shows in development is striking a little too close to the truth to be coincidence, and the Maia would need to juggle the production of their new show while on the run from the men in black?
...
I've been away from the computer for about twenty minutes, and when I came back, I reread my post before sending it, to check for spelling errors and such, and I came to a realization. That entire spiel up there, about the Maia television show, is an incredibly terrible idea. I'd delete it, but my post would be bland without it, and I find its awfulness genuinely amusing. -
Oh, but there is a huge world-shift. by
on 2014-02-07 00:43:00 UTC
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This is Tolkien's modern world, remember? Now, draw upon your knowledge of world history and tell me a hugely-important world shifting event that happened in the last 65 years or so? In, say... 1945? That went bang?
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On the ends of Ages. by
on 2014-02-07 09:55:00 UTC
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Contrary to popular opinion, the end of the Second Age did not come with the Downfall of Numenor and the reshaping of the world (though it really should have, considering); it actually lasted another 120 years or so, until the fall of Sauron.
In fact, all three Ages we know about the end of are terminated by a) massive war, and b) the overthrow of a Dark Lord. The First Age ended with the fall of a rebel Vala, while the Second and Third were both Maiar (actually, the same Maia).
To quote a wiki, 'Tolkien said in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.' I'm pretty sure that's accurate, since I remember reading it myself in Letters.
As wobbles has suggested, that immediately evokes a particular idea for the end of the Sixth Age - World War II. If we assume the 'Dark Lord' paradigm remains in play, it looks like Hitler is in Sauron's shoes.
(I'm actually dubious about this - I seem to recall Tolkien being more contemptuous than scared of Hitler. But it does fit the timeline)
Tolkien also said that the events of the War of the Ring were around 6000 years ago. That gives us the following dates:
Creation of the World: 5000 Valian Years before sunrise = 47910 solar years = 60954 years ago
Creation of the Two Trees: 14,325 solar years in length = 27369 years ago.
Sun rises: 13044 years ago
Second Age begins: 12460 years ago
Third Age begins: 9019 years ago
Fourth Age begins: 6000 years ago
Fifth Age begins: ?
Sixth Age begins: ?
Seventh Age begins: 1945
The lengths of the ages with known lengths (I discount the First, because it may well be the full 48000+ years between creation and the fall of Angband) are:
II: 3441 years
III: 3019 years
IV + V + VI: 6000 years.
Knowing what we do about Tolkien, can I propose that the Fifth Age ended with the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ? That is, to Tolkien's worldview, the defeat of Death and/or Satan. That would allow us the following dates:
II: 10515 BC - 7074 BC (3441 years)
III: 7074 BC - 4055 BC (3019 years)
IV: 4055 BC - ? (BC)
V: ? (BC) - AD 33
VI: AD 33 - AD 1945 (1912 years)
And would you believe it - that makes a straight-line graph of length/number. The equation comes out as y (length) = -379x + 4180. Applying that gives us the Fifth and Fourth Ages:
IV: 2664 years, or 4055 BC - 1391 BC
V: 2285 years, about 800 years too long for the 1391 BC - AD 33 slot. ;) So it's not perfect (or rather, it implies that the end of the Third Age was more like seven thousand years ago), but it gives us a ballpark - the IV - V switchover happened somewhere in the 1600-1300 BC region.
Anyone want to track down a Dark Lord in there somewhere? I note that traditional chronology dates the Biblical Exodus to between 1500-1300 BC...
hS
PS: This discussion mentions a length of 2500 years for the Fourth Age, which is actually pretty darn close to my calculation. Hmm... -
This isn't perfect, but... by
on 2014-02-07 11:45:00 UTC
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I did some digging, and some scholars purport that Moses was born in 1393 BC. Perhaps that theory about the Exodus isn't so far off the mark...
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Somehow it's extremely close enough. by
on 2014-02-06 21:36:00 UTC
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What I'm trying to say is this:
A person walking in his native locality finds the spirit, or Maia, that his people have been venerating/celebrating for centuries. They often talk to the Maia until one day, the Maia decides to teach him RingMaking. He makes the ring...
[Actually, being interrupted at critical stage of the Ring-making process is good enough. A misstep in spells, or even esoteric prayers, often demands the same rituals to be restarted from the beginning. Or you will have repercussions, or have to give out pengeras or something.]
... then he wears it on. Something terrible happened to him that drive him mad, kill him, or put him under direct control of the Maia itself, even.
Then the ring falls into numerous hands, who all died, but puts some of themselves into the ring in the process. One day, the ring gains full sentience, and relays its story to its next wearer. The person, who is the first one ever able to weild the ring without harm, sets off to use it to write creepy stories based on what the ring told him, and the title of his series are called The Ring, not to be confused with the frightening movie already in the market, The Ring.
[That's what I'm trying to say. But I think a Maia-run TV show would be an interesting idea. Not to mention the ensuing battle between Tolkien scholars, government, religious figures, and everyday Joes and Janes once they realise what they have researched is not what is actually happened in their world.] -
I don't believe so. by
on 2014-02-06 14:02:00 UTC
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But everyone seems to disagree, so I was wondering why.
I'm working on a 'Not-so-crackpot Theory' essay for Netilardo discussing what exactly we know about the Rings; I'll see if it turns out to be relevant.
hS -
Re: Ooh, you're right. by
on 2014-02-05 22:27:00 UTC
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Thanks for rewording that. Your explanation made much more sense than mine. :D
I still like the idea of drawing from multiple sources, though. The PPC has access to all sorts of magic and technology that isn't canonical to LotR. What if you drew power from sources without free will, like magical plants, artifacts, zombie hordes, or freshly brainswept bit characters? -
Yeah, but it wouldn't be a Tolkienverse Ring of Power then. by
on 2014-02-06 02:21:00 UTC
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If we use extracanonical sources of magic, and infuse them with the resources available in the Lord of the Rings, it wouldn't make an item native to either the Tolkienverse or whichever other continua the extracanonical influences were drawn from. It would be a multi-universal magical artifact, which is a pretty cool idea, but not what the thread was really asking about.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, though. To the contrary, picking multiple magic systems to use in an artifact's creation could lead to one system covering another's weaknesses, and a skilled magic-user could potentially create far more powerful enchantments than either system could alone because of that. It just wouldn't be the same sort of item.
Rings with mystical power exist throughout the multiverse, but they can operate under vastly different rules depending on who created them, in which continuum, and why they are being used. Just bringing in any extranormal ring from an outside source into Middle-earth isn't going to make it a Ring of Power, no matter how cool a Green Lantern Aragorn would be. -
Whoops, sorry. by
on 2014-02-06 02:28:00 UTC
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Well, that changes matters quite a bit! I'd assumed the thread was talking about a Generic Ring of Power for the PPC based on the rules of the Tolkienverse, not a Ring that could actually fit into the canon. Guess I didn't read closely enough.
I suppose you could draw power from unsavory canonical creatures, like Wargs, who lack free will. -
Or... by
on 2014-02-06 02:36:00 UTC
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...would the Ring then be controlled by a jumble of Warg animal instincts, rendering it utterly useless except in the instigation of riots?
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Either that or it would just drive its wielder insane. by
on 2014-02-06 02:51:00 UTC
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If exposure to a ring housing a portion of Sauron's consciousness turns someone evil by sending the sheer forceful presence and powerful will of a Dark Lord into the wearers body via skin-to-Ring contact, exposure to a Ring that directly connects a mind to a mess of frenzied thoughts and animal emotions that were pulled into the ring in the Wargs' final moments would send all of that tumult rushing into the mind of its user. Nobody would be able to wear that for more than a few minutes at most before losing it completely and running around at random, using whatever power the Warg-ring would give on anything that moves.
We would need someone of unexpected fearlessness and unprecedented power to go toe-to-toe with the Warg-ringed maniac and bring them down for the good of all Middle-earth. We would need... Green Lantern Aragorn.
(I'm so sorry, I just cannot get that idea out of my head.) -
This isn't Green Lantern Aragorn, but I think it's okay. by
on 2014-02-06 14:11:00 UTC
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-=BEING AN ACCOUNT OF THE LOST RING AND THE THIRD LAMP=-
At the dawn of the world, it is written that the Valar found Arda dim and featureless, a vast plain with neither life nor colour. They thus collected what little light was around and forged the Lamps for them, set in the great towers of Ringol and Helcar, and retired to the island in the centre of Arda to enjoy their paradise before Morgoth the Destroyer sundered their towers and ended those days.
But Illuin and Ormal were not the only Lamps...
Aule, the master smith of the Ainur, who loved creation for the sake of creating, did not wish to wait for the Quendi (as the Elves were once named) to arrive to pass on the secrets of smithing and the working of metal. Thus, in his secret places, he began to forge his own race of beings, who would later be called Dwarves. While he worked upon them, the chaos Melkor wrought upon Arda was felt far away, across space and time itself, and the dedication of Aule to overcome fear and darkness was lauded by those yet unknown to the Valar.
To Arda traveled one who was named Helma-luin in Quenya, but in his own tongue was called Guardian, and he came to pay homage to Aule. The great Ship of Helma-luin that travelled to Arda came through the skies over Arda as might a bird, and was silent and arrived unseen. He bade Aule meet him in secret, charging him with the safety of a third Lamp, which Aule named Laiture. It was Helma-luin who also brought the first great Ring to Arda, and he made Aule swear never to share his knowledge of this Ring with another, nor to submit it to the will of Iluvatar. This angered Aule greatly but he still gave his word that the Ring and the Lamp would stay secret, for as Helma-luin said, he was bound only to submit his own creations to Iluvatar, and Laiture and the Ring were made by the master-smiths of Helma-luin's own people, given as gifts only to those worthy of their power.
With the Ring of Laiture safe, Helma-luin parted and never again was seen in the Years of the Lamps, nor any Ages thereafter. Aule sought to understand the magic of the Ring, which he named Niraturne, for the wondrous Ring of Helma-luin bade whatever the wielder might imagine come into being as a spirit of green light. It was through the power of Niraturne that Aule fashioned the race of Dwarves, but when he made to smite them was when Eru Iluvatar discovered the Lamp and the Ring that had been given to the Valar. Aule threw himself upon the mercy of Eru, told his story, and the Supreme Being was touched. The Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were spared and Aule was allowed to keep Niraturne and Laiture to himself, and this was well.
When Melkor attacked and spilled the Two Lamps, the power of Niraturne was unleashed to hold back the tide of devastation. Aule remembered his vow to keep his Ring a secret, and so used it to create impregnable armour and the mightiest of hammers, which he named Sulendam. It was with this hammer that the doors of Utumno were smote in the War of the Powers and the chain Angainor forged, and this was in part how the other Valar came to know of the ring Niraturne and the hidden Lamp Laiture.
For when the Lamps were sundered and the misty light of the beginning spilled back upon the ground, Aule lit the way for the other Valar with Laiture, which he held in his right hand until the damage was repaired. He told the story of Helma-luin to the others, and they believed him, for they knew it was not in the nature of Aule to lie or deceive.
Laiture's light was used to grow the Two Trees and help construct the citadels and fastnesses of Valinor, and thereafter it was locked away. Niraturne, however, was instrumental in the creation of the Silmarils and the Jewels, and when they were taken the Friend of the Noldor was greatly fearful, for what if the Dark Enemy had taken Laiture and destroyed it? Thus, though Sulendam would never be carried in battle, Aule used it to beat the swords and shields of those who would fight in the War of Wrath, and it was he who persuaded the Valar to aid Earendil, for Vingilot's passage through the air reminded him of happier days when Helma-luin's sky-ship had come.
After the War of Wrath was ended and Morgoth cast through the Door of Night, it was decided by Eonwe that the power of Laiture and Niraturne was too great for even an Ainu to wield. Thus, they were cast into the sea by Aule, but both the Lamp and the Ring rose up, spiralling past the Walls of the World and out into the Timeless Void. The Valar were fearful of this, for what if Morgoth discovered them and used them to break his bonds and return? But this was not so, and nor would it be so, for the people of Helma-luin were wise and had bade the Ring and Lamp seek out only those who were doers of good and noble deeds. And so passed the last of the Lamps and the first of the Rings from the world, and whither they have gone not even Eru Iluvatar can know.
---
I hope this isn't too awful; it's been a long time since I read The Silmarillion and most of the names were cooked up from likely-misunderstood Quenya. And yes, symmetry was greatly important, nine shall be the number of your counting, et cetera, et cetera, but this was the best place to fit something like a Green Lantern ring and its attendant power battery.
Thank you for reading. =]
NO FLAMMING PLZ EVVEN THO THE FIREYNESS IS SOOOOO PRETTAY LOL NOT SA PRETY AS LEGGOLAS THO LIKE OMG and so on. -
It is a beautiful idea. (nm) by
on 2014-02-06 03:02:00 UTC
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OK then. by
on 2014-02-04 08:37:00 UTC
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"We never see humans using magic directly in LoTR (or the additional volumes, to my understanding), and even if one could, I doubt that any ring created by one would serve as more than a focusing device for their innate power."
This is what I'm going with. A human trying to emulate the actions of Sauron in order to gain great power, but in the end, his method is not working at all, at least not to the extent he's thinking. Thus he had to find a way to find out how to use it anyway.
I'm partly inspired by Code Geass in this regard, where with limited geasses, people could achieve great things if their work for it extremely bad. And extremely bad he works for it, as the world is almost destroyed by his actions' consequences. -
Probably not a good idea. by
on 2014-02-02 21:50:00 UTC
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While it certainly is possible, you'd better have a good explanation for why it exists. You should also make sure it isn't the equal of the canon rings. Here's the wiki article on it.
http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/ExtraRingsof_Power -
Human-made rings, of course it won't as mighty as Maia rings by
on 2014-02-03 05:18:00 UTC
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At most, it will only enhance one skill at a time. The One Ring could channel much more power than that.
The secret to make an effective villain or hero(!) out of it is how to employ it. Maybe she could date a CEO, giving the ring which will make him more suggestible to her and her minions.
Or as in Limitless, enhancing his own self mentally, but without any side effects(?).
Or maybe the ring is extremely powerful, but the maker and quite a few of his victims died before he could use it.