Subject: Tut, tut!
Author:
Posted on: 2014-02-03 12:55:00 UTC
We only just had the thread about 'can you do a good Tenth Walker', and my collection of scenes in response demonstrates that yes, you definitely can. The fact that it's often done badly doesn't mean it /always/ is.
hS
(...and wanted to ask highly philosophical and introspective questions on this Board.)
In my thoughts on Tenth Walkers and how one could potentially go about inserting someone into the Fellowship through supplantation or whatever, I came across the idea of what would happen if the OC in question volunteered to take the Ring, like Frodo did.
How would the Ring affect them? Or, rather, if you were the one who volunteered to take this magical artefact of known danger and power, how would it affect you?
I remember reading about the similarities between the One Ring and Plato's Ring, and how both could tempt people into immorality through its numerous powers and abilities (invisibility, longevity). According to the article, one has to know themselves to resist temptation -- to resist the lure of the One Ring. Such a thing is seen with Galadriel, Sam, and Tom Bombadil.
Do you think you, or your character, has a chance of resisting the Ring? Do you think you understand your limitations well enough to be able to defy the lure of immorality?
Heck, in a world where you were in Frodo's hobbit feet, would you be able to make his decision?
Hm... I don't think I can give a true answer (the baker does not say his leaven is excellent... damn, it sounds better in Hebrew) but I'd like to imagine that yes, I will resist its temptation. My desires in life are simple (tea and books/stories, basically) and I have less ambitions than most people I know. I also consciously follow a certain ethical code (behave as you want other people to behave/do not try to change the inevitable/do to others as you want them to do you) so I think I have good chances of ignoring the Ring's call.
I'd like to say I could resist it, but in reality, I have no idea. I'd resist taking that responsibility on principle, just because I know what that thing is and what it could do to me.
But...
In group situations, I tend to kind of become the leader just because I'm the only one who bothers to step up and take charge. If Frodo hadn't volunteered, I probably would have... and that's when the Ring would start screwing with my head. I'd love it if I could make the world better (insert Team Magma/Aqua/Galactic/Plasma/Flare reference here) and end starvation and war, and I'm pretty sure the Ring would use that to its advantage.
If nobody was willing to carry the Ring, I'd do it, but I'd be like, "Please make sure I don't go batcrap crazy during the trip, plzkthx."
I can only hope I'd be smart/resistant enough to give away the ring as soon as I notice what power it holds, otherwise I'd be on a one-way trip to Gollumville, as I am not barely resilient enough to resist such temptation as is presented by the one ring.
The Ring would have a field day, showing me all my power-mad fantasies fulfilled. I have no idea how long I would last against that- hopefully long enough to get it to Mount Doom.
And then, should I decide to keep the ring, cue angry Gollum! :)
I mean, assuming I had some idea of what I had and it wasn't just a case of "Oooh, shiny." But even then, I don't normally wear rings except my wedding and engagement rings. Wearing a plain chunk of gold doesn't really appeal to me, and the Ring is always noted as being heavy. Do not want.
As to invisibility and long life, I do pretty well avoiding people on my own already, and I've seen what even a good very long life looks like at the end. No, thanks. (If I could have any superpower, it would not be invisibility. I'd either want teleportation or the ability to always say the right thing at the right time.)
Realistically speaking, though, I just don't want a whole lot. I do occasionally wish people would just shut up and do what I tell them because god dammit I am right and it would be so much easier my way... but I have already made it a habit to curb those thoughts. For one thing, it would be too much bother having to tell everyone what to do all the time, and for another, free will for everyone plzkthx.
Ring: But you could make them bend to your will!
Me: Yeah, that would be fun for a while, but then I'd want to go do stuff on my own and not deal with people.
Ring: But... but... power!
Me: Whatever, man. I have projects to do. Also, pretty sure mind-slaves give terribly boring, unhelpful reviews.
I dunno, am I overlooking something? It seems to me that all the ring-temptations we've seen have been about "ooh, shiny" (Gollum) or power (Isildur, Galadriel, Boromir, Sam) or... I dunno what you'd call Faramir's. Stature? He wanted to prove himself to Denethor... but not so much that he'd compromise himself, which is why he resisted. Ain't nobody whose opinion I care about enough to damn myself over it, either. Not even Phobos. And I'm pretty sure that's something he likes about me, so there.
If the Ring granted the power of every creative thing you touch automatically being awesome, then we might have a problem, but power over others? Nah, I'd rather just stay home with my cat and write goofy stories, thanks. Maybe I could pawn it off for a year's rent, though, that would be sweet. Or, what about a ring that makes everyone use logic/common sense all the time without me having to force it? That'd be cool. Though I guess I'd miss Not Always Right and the Darwin Awards and stuff.
I doubt if I could do what Frodo did, either, though. Maybe if it looked like I was really the only person for the job, but then it would get me. Like, it would start out being like, "Well, okay, if no one else is gonna say anything... I guess SOMEONE has to...." But then it would be like, "Hey, don't you touch that. You didn't want it before. It's my responsibility now, and no way am I letting you jerks cock it up." And then it would be like, "I have to keep it FOREVER because I'm the ONLY ONE who REALLY CARES about DOING THINGS RIGHT." And then I don't even know. In real life I tend to get fed up and abandon things for months at a time when it gets to that point...?
~Neshomeh, who has a serious lack of ambition.
I don't know if the One could preserve the land like the Three, but if it can, I don't think I'd be able to say no to slowing or stopping global climate change. I love this Earth, and if I can single-handedly keep us from ruining it for a few more decades, sign me up.
If I ever assemble five plucky youths and give them lesser rings with dubious elemental themes, though, please slap me.
~Neshomeh
This question actually brings up a headcanon of mine that I had about the Ring waaaay back in the day. I always thought that half of the Ring's magnetism came from its innate ability to get inside its bearer's head...like, traveling with the Ring or even conversing with it is like talking to Hannibal Lector, you know? Yeah I know this is kind of a "no shit" observation but it would be a really interesting thing to base a fic on.
Though admittedly I don't see why you'd need an OC to do this. Granted though, I don't think any OC of mine would be able to resist its lure for long. After all, the Ring does have an uncanny ability for bringing out the WORST in people, even the best people. I think one of the reasons why Frodo himself resisted the Ring for so long was because he didn't really have anything for the Ring to exploit. With Frodo it felt like the Ring needed to cultivate that bad seed itself by exploiting the cracks in Frodo's spirit left by the Morgul Blade.
TL;DR--I'd think you'd have to be really comfortable with who you are in addition to having a strong spirit to resist the Ring and its temptations.
On a side note, I don't think I'd mind reading a Tenth Walker fic that tried to incorporate these kinds of questions in its work but what's the possibility of that happening? I mean, having a Tenth Walker is a huge violation of cannon right off the bat (one liable to get a fic PPC-ed). Sure, you can write off the initial misstep by saying the fic's a speculative AU but still... Tenth Walker fics have already set up a bad rapport with readers and agents alike with their terrible writing and lack of consideration for the rest of cannon. You'd have to play it very smart in order to avoid justifying these icky expectations.
Long post >.
We only just had the thread about 'can you do a good Tenth Walker', and my collection of scenes in response demonstrates that yes, you definitely can. The fact that it's often done badly doesn't mean it /always/ is.
hS
Now excuse me while I fish around my dorm for a hankie to wipe off the copious amounts of egg on my face before some Yahoo comes up, smacks me a frying pan, and calls me an omelet.
*grumbles* Dang you good authors always coming around to turn my relatively cynical expectations on their heads.
(Which I absolutely love)
Because I am already not-jokingly desperate to never die.
The Ring would be like, "Sup?"
And I go, "Whoa."
And it's like, "Yeah?"
And I'm all, "Sure!"
And then I turn into a Gollum-thing.
Just goes to show the power of the Ring I guess. I'll put in an answer of my own later.
This is partially due to the fact that I never really had any sort of idea what the One Ring does or why people would wage war for it, but it doesn't seem like it would be that much of an issue.
Its only powers, at least the only powers that have ever been apparent, are the ability to extend life while turning that life into some twisted alternate form, like a wraith or a whatever Gollum is, to make a single person turn invisible, and to make people desire it to the point that they will do anything to possess it again. Only the third one is in any way formidable, and you wouldn't be able to use it to save Arda or however someone would decide to help people using the Ring's power. Granted, I can see why the second power would motivate people to use it for less-than-innocent means, since an object that lets one person turn invisible for an extended period of time would have a sizable number of uses, many of them immoral, but that's a very small-scale power. You won't exactly be tempted to rend worlds in two and turn yourself into a lord of evil and destruction with only the power of invisibility and a convoluted form of immortality.
I mean, I know why Sauron wants it, since the One Ring contains a portion of his consciousness and he'd need that to be able to use his full power again. Plus, he was exposed to the One Ring when it was first being made, since he was the one who forged it, so he probably would've gotten the full brunt of the Want It Need It spell the Ring exudes, possibly far beyond the level it exuded when it was finished. I just don't know why anyone else would decide to use it to start going around and conquering. Is it because the piece of Sauron inside the Ring would possess them and enhance their innate desire to rule over others? Because that doesn't really match up with Boromir's feelings(and maybe Isildur's; I don't quite recall) that the Ring would somehow be able to be turned against Gondor's enemies, as though it could be used as a weapon or something. Maybe no one knows what the Ring is actually capable of, and is just running off of the logic that if someone as big and bad as Sauron wants it, it must be insanely powerful? I'm grasping at straws here, if you can't tell.
The Rings of Power were all designed to be magical in that they gave the users the strength and will to govern their peoples, and thus had a myriad of powers that are more subtle than immortality.
I consider the One Ring the original Horcrux. Sauron, like Voldemort, poured what essentially amounted to his soul into the Ring (the movies said his power, his cruelty, his will to dominate all life, etc). We saw what a Horcrux can do to people in the Potterverse -- it possessed Ginny and got her to unleash a Basilisk. It said nasty things to Ron until he deserted the Trio during their own Camping Trip from Hell. I imagine the Ring's influence to be way stronger than that, way more insidious, way more... irresistible.
As far as I know, the Ring's power is expressed in the books mostly as that voice that tells its bearer all the stuff they could have if they just claimed it as their own (and then attract the attention of all the enemies who come to nab the idiot who dared to contest Sauron's power). If it, perhaps, amplified the user's ability to lead or fight or cast spells, it might come in handy -- but with that power there's also that Horcrux-y bit where eventually it's not the bearer controlling the Ring, but vice versa.
Eh, I just rambled.
Or is part of its power the ability to convince people that it's capable of doing things that it would never be able to do? If the latter's the case, it would actually be pretty insidious. "Why do I want this ring so much?" asks a random shmuck who has shown no resilience to the magic coursing through Sauron's soul jar. "I have to want it for some reason. Well, it said it would give me the power to shape the minds of others and the power to resurrect the dead, so that's probably why. It hasn't given me that power yet, but I know it will. If it wouldn't, well, I wouldn't have this unnatural longing to keep it with me, and I know I'm not the sort of person who carries jewelery around for no reason." It'd be the same sort of principle by which people convince themselves that they love their jobs because if they didn't, there would be literally no reason for them to be working where they are, compounded by the One Ring's ambient desire spells. Pretty sneaky, Sauron.
... I'd be surprised if the One Ring couldn't deliver as well.
It would be too much to say the Ring was sentient, but it certainly has a will, specifically Sauron's will. It also holds a good chunk of Sauron's power, and Sauron was a Maia -- a fallen Maia, but Maia none the less.
We never really find out in the trilogy what a Maia is capable of if s/he is motivated. The times Gandalf cuts loose, it's either off-page (most of the Balrog fight) or something the mortal observers aren't capable of seeing. "Saruman, your staff is broken" -- there has to be more going on there than snapping a stick, but we don't see it. But going back to the Silmarillion, Melian is able to keep Morgoth from scrying through the magical barrier she erects around Doriath, which argues for Maia having a great deal of power to affect the world.
Getting back to the original question, I think I'd be in trouble if I held the Ring. I had a lot of self-image issues as a child/teen, and it's something I still have to watch for today. If the Ring can't come up with a way to manipulate that, give it back to Sauron already, we've been worrying for no reason.
Only that it will help you reach your goals until it thinks Sauron is getting close. Then it leaves you. Much like how Isildur was killed when using the ring to escape. The ring found it's avenue of escape, so it go with it.
If by making you the CEO of Microsoft gets it closer to Sauron, it will do its best to help you, with a few 'accidents' here and there it helps to concoct. But if Sauron is walking past you at the street, it will try to fall down, preferably rolling over to Sauron's feet.
You already have some idea of the One Ring's modus operandi.
On one hand, I have the meta-knowledge of what the Ring does to people and the reasons why it must be destroyed. On the other hand, I am an absolute chicken and willuse the Ring's powers of concealment whenever danger presents itself.
I'd probably be putty in the hands (torus-thing?) of the Ring.
I'd probably try to use it for something really petty, knowing me, or maybe to try, like hS, to help people and go about it completely the wrong way. I don't have much strength of will or much of a drive, and those would only help the Ring. I'd be an incredibly horrible decision as Ringbearer.
-Aila
Not dark, but...darker, I guess, and...um...more terrible? Yeah, this really isn't going as well as I had hoped.
Anyway, I have gained the nickname "The Betraying Betrayer Who Betrays" amongst my friends (no word yet from my enemies). I don't think I should be trusted with semi-phenomenal, nearly-cosmic power. I think I'm too selfish, honestly. The temptation to use it for my own benefit would be too much.
-Phobos
I'd like to think that I'd be tempted by the power to do good, but somehow I think that I'd be done in before I got there, just by the desire to be safe. Adventures in Middle Earth are all well and good, but in the end I prefer my wifi and my hobbit hole and far less uncertainty (and no things trying to kill me.)
(No ideas on how I ended up with the thing - I suspect it involves Frodo getting a seriously bad cold)
I think, like Gandalf, the Ring would tempt me with the power to do good - to make things better for, well, everyone. Precisely what it would offer would depend on its actual abilities, but maybe the ability to just... convince people to stop doing bad things. That can't be wrong, can it? I mean, sure, you'd have to twist them a little on the way - but in a good way!
But there's all those people who just don't understand, who keep wanting to attack me, to hurt all the people I helped. And I've got this Ring...
Of course, I don't imagine I'd actually get that far. I rather suspect I'd fall foul of the first Nazgul to hunt me down. But you didn't ask about chances of success. ;)
About 'know thyself' - I'm not so sure. Remember, Gandalf is a demigod, and he didn't want to go anywhere near the thing. Of the three 'resisters' you mentioned, only Bombadil truly resisted - and I think that was because of who (or rather, what) he is. A nature spirit, tied to a specific feature of the landscape, wouldn't be affected in any way by bottled demigodly power.
Galadriel, of course, nearly didn't resist - she was on the verge of accepting (and had thought long and hard about what she'd do - in fact, the way she describes it sounds more like a fond daydream or fantasy). Ultimately, yes, it was a form of self-knowledge that gave her that resistance - the knowledge that the time of the Eldar was past, and that it was time for her to 'diminish, and go into the West'... even if the West wouldn't have her ('But if of ships I now should sing/What ship would come for me?').
And Sam? I like to image Sam resisted because, of all the people who encountered the Ring, he's the only one who actually knows what hard work (as opposed to fighting) feels like. So the promise of 'I can do all this effortlessly' would be met with 'There's no such thing as a free lunch (as my old Gaffer used to say)'.
hS
Actually, what, exactly, does that ring do anyway? I know it makes you invisible, and that it makes Sauron nearly invincible, but what other effects dos it have? When has it made anyone (other then Sauron) do anything other then turn to shadow and fall into Sauron's gaze?
"But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?"
"No!" cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."
It's rather more abrupt in the film; I'd forgotten the original. Still, Gandalf thought its strength would allow him to do some kind of good.
As to what the Ring - or rather, the Rings - do... this will need a Netilardo post, I think, but just off the top of my head:
There are three 'kinds' of Ring. The Seven and the Nine were made pretty much identically, by Sauron and the Eldar. The Three were made solely by the Eldar, and the One by Sauron alone. Still, they seem to share some attributes:
-The Sixteen and the One can shift Men (and the related Hobbits) into the spirit world, along with their clothes. We don't know what effect they have on Elves, though they do not turn dwarves invisible. Nor do we know whether the Three can turn anyone invisible, though we can say for sure they can't do it to elves. We do know that none of them can make a Maia invisible - since both Sauron with the One, and Gandalf with Narya, were visible.
-All the Rings had the power to halt decay. In the case of the Three, this was applied to whatever the bearer chose - Gandalf used Narya on all of Middle-earth, Galadriel and Nenya sustained Lorien. In the Sixteen and the One, at least as worn by Men (and Hobbits), it led to unnatural extension of life - and, at least with the Nine, becoming eventually a wraith. (Gandalf says the One would do the same thing, but no-one has ever tested the idea)
-When borne by a dwarf, the Sixteen had the power to accumulate gold to a horde, somehow. They didn't grant extended life, since the Ring of Thror was passed down through the line of kings over thousands of years, from Durin III.
-"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth..." That suggests that building wealth was an intrinsic property of the Sixteen - and maybe of the One, too: look how rich Bilbo became during his first few months as Ringbearer. But, of course, they need gold to accumulate gold.
-The quote above suggests that the Rings could also be used to enact 'sorcery' - though what exactly that means in Middle-earth is unclear. And this is the crux of the matter - aside from domination of the other Rings (which would require great strength of will; Gandalf could have done it, and turned the Nazgul against Sauron), and the paltry trick of invisibility - oh, and the money - the power of the Rings lay in sorcery. Find a description of a non-Maia, non-Elf using magic, and you'll have a guess as to what the One could do if wielded properly.
hS
-The One is described to 'govern' and 'rule' the other Rings, even the Three which Sauron had no part in making - because, presumably, they all used his craft.
any ideas on what the lesser rings (the essays in ringcraft) could do? Because that's what I was playing with in terms of Moriarty in my Ringlock crossover (darn you, making me interested in continuing it): he was part of the Gwaith-i-Mirdan but got corrupted by Sauron and is now doing bad, Moriarty-esque things.
I need a plausible reason for him to be corrupted and I don't think a lesser ring is going to corrupt him so easily. Unless, you know, he was deranged from birth or something. Are there sociopathic Elves? Would Eol count?
Netilarda now has a theory about him.
According to Wikipedia, 'sociopathy' is essentially a synonym of 'psychopathy', which is described as 'characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior'. By that measure, there are definitely sociopathic elves: off the top of my head, Feanor, Curufin (at minimum - I'd be tempted to count most or all of the Sons of Feanor), Eol, and Maeglin all count. Does it count if it's a learnt response - if someone's an evil monster because his father was, too (the Feanorions and Maeglin could both be this)?
hS
The fact that they were essays in ringcraft implies (duh) that they hadn't yet achieved the primary effect, or that they had an unwanted side-effect. I see two options:
1/ The longevity/sustaining effect (longevity in Men, environmental sustaining in Eldar and other immortals) wasn't yet in there. That means, depending on the time of making, they could have any combination of invisibility, wealth-generation, and sorcery.
2/ The sustaining was in there, but actually drained the user's life to do it. That would require adding a 'don't let the wearer's fea (soul) leave' function - which is fine for an elf, but causes rather awkward side-effects in mortals.
Actually, I rather like that second idea. The Rings cause invisibility - shifting the user entirely into the realm of spirits, not bodies. To a Valinorian Elda - and the leaders of Eregion were Noldor - they burn bright in both worlds, but you can imagine a shifting of viewpoint or power-focus. In the unseen realm, they would be able to view the 'spirit' of a location, and influence it accordingly.
For anyone who hadn't been to Valinor, they would find themselves shifted almost entirely to the unseen: invisibility. There they would be able to feel people's thoughts to some extent (since they would be actually looking at their souls), and would probably be able to work 'magic' of some kind - though what, exactly, I'm not sure.
The Rings apply their sustaining power to the body that wears it, in order to hold the fea in place - but the more a mortal uses a Ring, the more time their body spends in the unseen, and the less chance the Ring has to work on it. Thus the body fades away through lack of sustaining, while the fea is not yet free to leave, because the body never actually died.
(The Three, being made after Sauron left, would incorporate the latest innovation: they don't shift you into the unseen, but rather allow you to influence it while in the visible world. That explains how Elrond, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad can all use them without being invisible)
So there's a few options for what a lesser ring would do:
-Give you power, but drain your life while you use it, eventually leading to death.
-Give you wealth and magic, but drain everything around you.
-Give you power, but (if you weren't an Exile) make you invisible. - without the sustaining effect.
-... anything else, really. This is all theory. ;)
As to how corrupting they would be... while power corrupts, the main corrupting effect of the Rings (excluding the One) lies in their link to the One. The Master Ring - and its Master - rules over the others, and corrupts their users. It's not an intrinsic property of the rings.
hS
That actually sounds like something super cool. Maybe he wields a lesser Ring which did option two, but since he was an elf, it didn't have that big of an effect.
However, the corruption remains. I wonder exactly how one like Sauron would go about corrupting an elf.
I mean, look at his name! But Elrond will have the foresight to kick me out first, as I have a cohort of orcs weaving spidersilk for clothing. Yeah, I hadn't released Dark Lord Aakmal, have I?
If the ring falls into my character's hand, his world domination will be through economic and fashion sense. The One Ring promised him many people wearing his brand, and little taxes that he has to pay.
But, Master Galthrid from the other day may fall quickly to the ring's power, evoking his 'loyalty' to Sauron, and attempts to steal it and turn it to him.
Me myself IRL, truthfully I only want dominion over my state for a decade or two as I fix my state's situation. Large enough a way for the Ring to tempt me. I hope there's Gandalf to knock me senseless when I get mad enough.
In both the book and the film (and, for that matter, the Bakshi movie), I get the distinct impression that Frodo was being driven into taking on the Quest. This is arguably clearest in the book, where Bilbo is the first person to volunteer - only for Elrond(?) to tell him that no, his part's over, the Ring has passed to another. It's all he can do to keep from giving Frodo a significant look.
So that's a sort of answer to your last question: Frodo didn't really make a decision. Or rather, he did, but pointlessly: he would have ended up carrying the thing one way or the other.
I'll come back to the rest of it when I get a chance; no time now, but the question is very interesting.
hS