Subject: It was the weekend; I was busy. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2014-02-03 08:02:00 UTC
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Presenting Netilardo: The Tolkien Trinkets site. by
on 2014-01-28 16:29:00 UTC
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I've been working on this one for a while now, and think that, while still small, it's finally ready for public release.
Netilardo
'Trinkets of Arda'
The purpose of this site (or sub-site, or whatever it is) is to draw out some of the hidden things in Tolkien's work. It's home to my Not-So-Crackpot Theories List (inspired by the Crackpot Theories list, of course!), and a few other things. If you're into Tolkien, there should, hopefully, be something there to interest you.
I'd like to point as well at the Deep Places section. My statement about 'every character' isn't an idle comment - it's honestly true. Therefore, if there's any character you're wondering about, someone you think lacks depth, or a name you don't think has an actual person behind it, now would be a good time to ask. That way, I can have some fun playing with Tolkien trivia, and also fill out the Deep Places a little.
hS -
*jumps up and down* by
on 2014-02-05 08:14:00 UTC
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Can you do Haleth? I know she's not precisely a minor character, but she's not particularly major either (at least from what I've read. I'm no farther than Lost Tales), and I have a very large soft spot for her. (I think the fact that I went as her for Hallowe'en this year sort of sums that up nicely.)
So please?
-Aila -
The Lady Haleth by
on 2014-02-05 14:40:00 UTC
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Lady Haleth of Brethil is in rarified company among mortals. Not only is she, alongside Tar-Ancalimë, Tar-Telperiën, Tar-Vanimeldë, and Tar-Míriel, one of only five known female leaders of Mannish nations (and in both of the latter two cases, their power was weilded by their husbands), she is also, with Emeldir the Manhearted and Eowyn of Rohan, one of only three mortal warrior-women in Tolkien's writings.
But how did she end up that way? The Second House of Men crossed into Beleriand around the year 311 of the First Age, but refused to move with the people of Bëor and Marach into Estolad, nor to continue westward. Instead, they settled in southern Thargelion, between the rivers Gelion and Ascar. The land was nominally owned by Caranthir, son of Feanor, but he lived far to the north, part of the Siege of Angband.
Haleth was born around 341, with her twin brother Haldar. Her people lived a spread-out existence, and for the first 35 years of Haleth's life, a peaceful one. At this point she was 'no-one special': the Haladin had no lord, so her father would simply have been a farmer, a hunter, a parent.
Except it isn't quite so simple. In 375, orcs swarmed out of the Blue Mountains to assault the Haladin, and Haldad, Haleth's father, was chosen to be their leader. At the southern tip of Thargelion, between two rivers, he built a stockade, and the orcs laid siege.
But how did Haldad know what to do? Where did Haleth learn the leadership skills she used when, after the death of both her father and her twin, she rallied the people and defended the fortress through another week of starvation, until Caranthir came to their rescue? The Edain would not have used such fortifications on their trek into the west, nor in their pastoral life in Thargelion. The Nandor of Ossiriand, to the south, would never make such forts.
There are only two possibilities. Haldad and his family could have travelled north and visited the Leaguer - but it is explicitly said that Caranthir ignored them, which would be difficult if they were paying him regular visits. More likely, a look at the map tells us that the dwarf-road from Nogrod and Belegost followed the north bank of the Ascar. Could Haleth have journeyed with her father to their ancient halls and high fortresses, and seen their skirmishes with the orcs? An architect who could design a stockade to hold off an entire army of orcs would be a wise choice for leader - and the gruff mannerisms of the dwarf-lords of the Blue Mountains would go down well with the wild woodsmen of the Haladin, whether weilded by Haldad or his daughter. And in after years, after Haleth dragged them through spider-infested valleys to Brethil, the Haladin famously went into battle armed with axes...
One further point: there were not, in fact, three Houses of the Edain. There were four - the fourth being the Drúedain, the Wild Men of the Wood who the Rohirrim named Woses. The distant kin of Ghân-buri-Ghân travelled west with the Haladin, and lived alongside them in Brethil - and in Thargelion. Haldad would surely have gathered these squat, dwarf-like Men into his fold when he built the stockade - and when he fell, with the best of his people's fighters, could Haleth's final bitter defence have been augmented by the disturbingly magical watch-stones of the Drûgs? -
Oh, yes. Brilliant. (nm) by
on 2014-02-06 04:03:00 UTC
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Well... by
on 2014-02-05 11:16:00 UTC
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... the Lady Haleth (like Tar-Miriel, she always gets her title from me ;)) is already on my list of Strong Women. I'll take another look at her and see if I can find more to say.
Once I finish putting off Finduilas of Dol Amroth, that is.
hS -
Just want to say... by
on 2014-02-03 04:48:00 UTC
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This is awesome and I've greatly enjoyed the parts I've read so far, despite having been too consumed with building my site and other stuff to say anything earlier. I'm sorry about that. Please keep being awesome. {= )
~Neshomeh -
*agrees completely* (nm) by
on 2014-02-03 16:08:00 UTC
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Thank you! by
on 2014-02-03 13:55:00 UTC
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(What, no-one you wanted me to discourse on? What am I going to do for the rest of the day?!)
hS -
Well, maybe. by
on 2014-02-03 21:37:00 UTC
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There's never enough said about the Dwarves, and plenty to be set straight regarding what little Tolkien actually did say about Dwarf women. How about that for a topic?
I was glad to see Erendis in "Strong Female Characters," BTW. I'm also sad we'll never know the rest of her story.
~Neshomeh -
Well, here's something. by
on 2014-02-04 15:16:00 UTC
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It wandered a bit, I think, but I did get a few deductions in.
In all of Tolkien's legendarium, there is only one female dwarf we know by name: Dis, sister of Thorin Oakenshield, mother of Fili and Kili. She stands in the direct line of Durin (in fact, Thorin is the last king of that line, since his heir, Dain Ironfoot, is Thror's younger brother's grandson), and as such is one of the highest ranking Longbeard dwarves.
And yes, that means she has a long beard. Tolkien stated that 'the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike', and while she could have trimmed it, the Longbeard tribe pride themselves on their, well, long beards - the elves of Rivendell joke that they are long enough to drag in the water below the bridge!
Dis was born in the Lonely Mountain, and was ten years old when Smaug attacked - a small child by the standards of the dwarves, who didn't reach their adult stature until 40, and (if Gimli is anything to go by) stayed at home until around 60 years of age. She fled with her family to the Blue Mountains, far to the west - and there she would have stayed. Her childhood spanned the most tumultuous years of dwarven history since the fall of Moria - the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, nearly ten years of war which culminated in the cataclysmic Battle of Azanulbizar. Dis was 39 years old when the battle was won.
(To compare her to other famous characters from the Quest of Erebor: Thorin was 53. Balin was 37. Gloin was a mere child of 16, while his brother Oin was all of 25. Dain Ironfoot was 32, about as young as a dwarven warrior can be - which makes his slaying of Azog (and his glimpse of Durin's Bane) all the more impressive)
Dis' life was one of tunnels, forges, and caves. There were fewer women among dwarves than men - they made up about a third of the population - and as such they tended to stay at home. They weren't required to marry - in fact, the text suggests less than a third of the men got married, which corresponds to a quarter of the whole population, and suggests that roughly one in four dwarven women did not marry. But Dis did, and bore two sons (and potentially a daughter or two - dwarves tended to have four or less children, and didn't record their daughters on their genealogies).
There was something slightly strange about Dis' family. In every recorded case, dwarves began having children at the age of 100, within a span of maybe two years. For instance, the three famous Kings Under The Mountain, Thror, Thrain, and Thorin, were born in 2542, 2644, and 2746. And, indeed, Dis stuck to this cultural imperative - her elder son, Fili, is 99 years younger than her.
But there is another data point: the time between children. Balin and Dwalin were nine years apart. So were Oin and Gloin. Dain I, Thror's father, was ten years older than his brother Borin - and there were ten years between Thror and Fror, and nine between Fror and Gror. There were even nine years between Fundin (father of Balin) and Groin (father of Gloin).
But Thrain broke the pattern - the unwritten law. His second son, Frerin, was a mere five years younger than Thorin, though Dis at least was born nine years after him. And Dis continued this minor transgression: there are five years between Fili and Kili.
But why? One possibility is that Dis - and her father before her - broke with the tradition of Durin's line and married outside the Longbeard clan. When Beleriand was broken, the Firebeards and Broadbeams of Nogrod and Belegast were driven from their homes, and fled to Khazad-dum to join the Longbeards. We know the clans maintained their separate identities through the millennia that followed - Thrain was able to call on the 'Houses of other Fathers' in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Was this an alliance which had long been building - one which had led Thrain to marry outside his own clan, securing the allegiance of one of the other tribes?
The ruined city of Belegost lay very close to Thorin's halls in the Blue Mountains. Could Dis have followed her father's example, marrying into Firebeard or Broadbeam blood? Perhaps. Fili and Kili are both described as having yellow beards, which could suggest the fire of the Firebeards. They also both wear blue hoods - reminiscent, perhaps, of their ancestry in the Blue Mountains. And, of course, in the movies, they are portrayed with short, neatly-trimmed beards - hardly the grooming style one would expect of a Longbeard of the Line of Durin!
hS -
Interesting! by
on 2014-02-04 20:53:00 UTC
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I missed the part about the dwarves having beards from birth. There's an odd mental image for us naked humans. {X D
Thanks!
~Neshomeh -
The Avari by
on 2014-02-01 08:53:00 UTC
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What do they get up to, post-First Age? In the Silmaril era, there are loads of them around, and a few serve as principal characters, but I don't recall them doing much after that story ends. A little bit of research seems to imply that a number of them joined with some other Elves and made the Silvans, but also states that there were at least six clans left, so they had to have some sort of presence during the Second and Third Ages. And on a related note, who did the Avari who founded the Silvans join up with?
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At last, a cheerful one. by
on 2014-02-03 11:13:00 UTC
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No Avari ever appear in the stories of Middle-earth.
Actually, that's not strictly true.
In the true meaning of the word - those elves who refused the Great March, and thus never left Cuivienen - their only named characters appear in late writings discussing the departure. Here we learn that the Avari were made up of equal parts of the second and third kindreds (the Tatyar and Nelyar - among the Eldar, these kindreds became the Noldor and the Teleri), with two leaders: Morwë and Nurwë. Even further back in time, we come across the tale of the original 144 elves who awakened at Cuivienen, including the named couples: Imin and Iminyë, Tata and Tatië, Enel and Enelyë. Of course, their names literally translate as 'One', 'Two', 'Three' - so these may not be historical persons. If they are, any of the latter four could be Avari.
After the departure of the Eldar, the Avari lived in a very dark place. In part this was literal - the only natural light in Middle-earth was starlight - but in part it was the result of the war the Valar had waged against Melkor. Yet again, Middle-earth had been shattered and broken, and the Avari were now living in an ecosystem which was in a state of rapid change. Worse, as part of the war effort, Melkor had created the orcs - by corrupting some of the elves of Cuivienen. We know that some of these survived the war, and after the Valar retreated, taking Melkor with them, his creatures would have come crawling out. In those early days, the horror of the orcs would have been similar to that of zombies: they may well have been people the remaining Avari once knew and loved, now twisted and turned to evil.
And so, despite their mistrust of the Valar, the Avari slowly spread out from Cuivienen. We know there were at least six tribes, widely sundered, because we are told their names - six wildly different versions of the word 'Quendi'. Some of the Avari, indeed, made their way along the route of the Great March, where they joined up with the various stragglers: east of the Blue Mountains, they lived in the wild woods of Eriador and Rhovanion with the Nandor/Silvan elves (who later became the isolated populations in Mirkwood and Lorien, though at the time there was no distinction between the two forests), while others reached Beleriand and joined the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Still mistrusting the Valar, very few of them would have lived in Doriath, with its Maiarin queen - and it is said that the Avarin Tatyar were extremely unfriendly to their kin, the Noldor, once they returned.
The Avari make one other major contribution to the history of Middle-earth: when Men awoke in Hildorien on the east coast, with the first rising of the sun, they learnt language from the Avari and the eastern Dwarves. It was from the Avari that Men first heard of the Valar, and Valinor - and as a result of their words, the three kindreds of the Edain began to seek the West. Without the Avari, there would have been no Beren, no Earendil - and no Aragorn.
hS
PS: So no, in the technical sense, no Avari serve as principal characters - you may be thinking of the various peoples (the Nandor and Laiquendi) who turned aside from the March. -
Are you done making the website? by
on 2014-02-02 21:36:00 UTC
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Or is there just no other information on the Avari, and nothing that can be surmised?
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It was the weekend; I was busy. (nm) by
on 2014-02-03 08:02:00 UTC
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Sorry about that. by
on 2014-02-03 19:48:00 UTC
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I above anyone should realize that other people have drastically different weights on their time than it may at first seem.
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I just read through this thread... by
on 2014-01-31 20:02:00 UTC
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...and it's incredibly fascinating. May I ask for Nerdanel?
-Aila -
Um, this one got a bit... yeah. by
on 2014-02-03 10:41:00 UTC
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Feanor beat his wife.
The first point in this argument is Feanor's personality as a whole. He is a man who resorts to violence almost every time something goes wrong. He threatened his half-brother at swordpoint over an imagined slight. He and his sons threatened 'fierce vengeance' on anyone who should so much as find a Silmaril by the roadside and not return it - and his sons demonstrated multiple times that this was no idle threat. Feanor rallied the Noldor to form a military expidition to find Morgoth - and when the Teleri refused to help, he attacked them without mercy. Even when abandoning the host of Fingolfin, he chose to utterly destroy the ships, rather than keeping them for potential later use.
Secondly, we have Feanor's attitude towards women. His mother died when he was young, which led to one of the messiest breakups in history: first Finwe spent an age pestering Miriel to come back to life, and then, when she refused to do so in what he considered good time, he found a new bride, and switched to convincing Miriel to never come back. In all of Finwe's actions - the efforts Feanor would have been watching closely - there was no consideration of Miriel's desires. To Finwe - at least as seen by young Feanor - she was an object to be possessed, or discarded when she could be replaced.
It didn't help that Finwe's new wife, Indis, was of the Vanyar. Unlike the craft-working Noldor, the Vanyar spent their time singing, dancing - or as Feanor might have put it, looking pretty and doing nothing of value. To his eyes, although he didn't have the phrase available, Finwe's second bride was a trophy wife. Feanor, naturally, shunned her.
We also see Feanor's opinion of his own wife, Nerdanel. "Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aule," he tells her, "you would keep all of [our children], for you would come with us." A 'true wife', in Feanor's eyes, is one who obediently does everything her husband desires. He goes on to make this even more abundandly clear: "If you desert me, you desert also all of our children." Not 'if you choose not to travel to Middle-earth' - no, to Feanor, Nerdanel's options were between being a proper wife (and doing what he said), or being a bad wife (and going off by herself). He didn't even consider she might have opinions beyond himself.
And like father, like sons. In the story of Luthien, we meet Celegorm and Curufin, who - despite Curufin being married himself (and we never hear anything about his wife) - attempt to claim Luthien as a prize. Regardless of her wishes, they want to marry her to Celegorm, and thereby claim kinship to her father. When it becomes clear that they can't have the object they desire - when their second abduction fails - they switch to trying to flat-out kill her, with only Beren and Huan stopping them from succeeding. These are not elves with the faintest degree of respect for women - and in this, they follow their father.
This lack of respect also comes out in another way. Feanor and Nerdanel had seven sons, a massive number unequalled among the Eldar. Tolkien explains that elves saw conceiving a child as something of a craft project, with the result being a person who was a being in his or her own right, but also a product of their craftsmanship. While Nerdanel was also a crafter - as all the Noldor were - Feanor was the perfectionist. He is the one who would insist on having more and more sons, in order to ensure he had created the best possible product - just as he continued to craft gemstones until he had perfected the Silmarils. We know Nerdanel wasn't actively unwilling - in Valinor, that degree of coercion would never fly - but it seems unlikely she was as eager as Feanor to just keep popping out kids.
The third, and strongest, argument lies in Nerdanel's own reactions to her husband. We know she loved him at first, when he was learning smithying from Mahtan, her father. We know that for a time, she tried to moderate his temper with wisdom. But we also know that, by the time their last two sons were born, Nerdanel had completely shut herself off, emotionally, from her husband:
The two twins were both red-haired. Nerdanel gave them both the name Amburassa - for they were much alike and remained so while they lived. When Feanor begged that their names should at least be different Nerdanel looked strange, and after a while said: ‘Then let one be Umbarto, but which, time will decide.’
Feanor was disturbed by this ominous name (‘Fated’), and changed it to Ambarto (‘Exalted head’). But Nerdanel said: ‘Umbarto I spoke; yet do as you wish. It will make no difference.’
That is Nerdanel saying 'One of these children is going to die; if you don't care, then fine, leave me alone.' She is still trying to reason with Feanor - but she refuses to allow him to touch her emotions.
Later, after the death of the Trees, this becomes even more abundantly clear:
She retired to her father’s house; but when it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Feanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or at least one of them.
He replied: ‘Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aule, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.’
Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: ‘You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.’
Nerdanel does show her emotions here, perhaps in a final effort to get Feanor to listen - but at the same time she cuts herself off entirely from her family. Tolkien said that the Eldar would never speak of 'having' children - they would say 'two children are added to my house', for instance - but here Nerdanel reduces her sons to the status of objects: 'You will not keep all of them', she tells Feanor, and even as she pronounces a sentence of death on one of the twins, we hear her unspoken words: 'Just as you cannot keep me.'
Nerdanel was abused by her husband, who saw her as little more than a tool - or, later, an obstacle. Is it certain that the abuse was physical? No - but knowing what we do of Feanor, it seems a safe, if tragic, bet.
hS -
Wow. Thank you. Wow. I never thought of it that way. (nm) by
on 2014-02-03 16:05:00 UTC
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Neither did I. by
on 2014-02-03 16:27:00 UTC
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That's part of the... well, in every other case, fun of doing this: it gives me an excuse to put the pieces together and discover these things. Unfortunately, sometimes the results aren't... very nice.
That's why I decided to 'spoil the ending' on that one: I kind of didn't want people expecting a happy ending and getting more and more disturbed.
Blah, time for something more cheerful: did you know Eol might be Celeborn's foster-father?
hS -
I did not. Simply fascinating. (nm) by
on 2014-02-04 02:52:00 UTC
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Quick question... by
on 2014-01-29 12:45:00 UTC
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Do you happen to know of any resources on the Haradrim language? I can't find any, y'see. My Google-fu is weak. =]
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Now that's a very tricky one. by
on 2014-01-29 13:31:00 UTC
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The thing is, in all of Tolkien's writings, there are... um... two words of Haradrim origin:
-Mûmakil, singular Mûmak, the giant elephants of Harad. This at least tells us how you form plurals in Haradrim (add -il).
-Incánus, said to be derived from Haradrim 'North-Spy', as Inkā-nūsh. That means one of those words is either an adjective ('Northern') or a genitive ('of the North')... but we have no way of knowing which.
Oh, I beg your pardon:
-Variag is a Haradrim word for some or all of the people of...
-Khand, a nearby country, so the name may at least be related.
-Umbar is apparently a Haradrim loanword, though its meaning is unknown. We might hypothesise 'Haven', and stick a circumflex over the U, but we'd be stabbing in the dark.
We can draw a few conclusions about phonetics - they were fond of the hard K sound, and can modify at least some vowels with accents - but other than that (and the -il ending), there is nothing to go on.
Nothing from Tolkien, at any rate. The Middle-earth Role Playing series contains about half a dozen supplements on Harad, but the MERP Wiki suggests that its 'Haradaic' was basically a mashup of 'serbo-croatian, arabic, persian and fantasy-forms'. As far as I can tell, there is no Haradrim language.
In fact, the only Tolkien languages it's possible to learn to any significant degree are the various Elvish tongues - Quenya, Sindarin, Telerin, and Primitive Eldarin - Adunaic, and with a lot of effort, Westron. Even the Black Speech, if assumed to be identical with Orcish, has only three sentences associated with it. Ardalambion is a good place to find out what's available. (Tolkien apparently wrote a grammar for Taliska, Beren's mother-tongue - but it's never been released. Sad face)
hS -
Given how little Tolkien tries to develop Back Speech... by
on 2014-01-30 04:56:00 UTC
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Can we employ Peter Jackson's version? If the linguists working on it worked the grammar, then it can be used as basis for new language. Granted, it wouldn't be Tolkien's anymore. But the eastern world can be fleshed out even more.
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According to David Salo... by
on 2014-01-30 09:22:00 UTC
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... there's not even a lot of that. He lists all the Orcish words he invented for the Hobbit movies here. Wikipedia's article on the Black Speech gives a two-sentence phrase he came up with in that; I haven't been able to find anything more.
hS -
Much like Malay then. by
on 2014-01-30 10:48:00 UTC
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We do borrow word from other languages. We as users of the langauge aren't keen to make up new words. Instead, we also used old word we have and reused it for a new definition, or changing it only adding suffixes, prefixes, and midfixes to our words if necessary. Example:
Tikus: a mouse or rat.
(Te)tikus: a computer mouse.
Even Malay have many dialects that may not be intelligible across Malaysia and Indonesia. Some orc tongues may not be understood by other orcs too. So there is a lot of legroom to develop the language. Or languages. -
Ah. At least there's something. by
on 2014-01-29 14:23:00 UTC
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I was just interested in continuing my Haradrim Tenth Walker fic and I didn't want to step on any toes. The lands to the south and east of Gondor are intensely fascinating to me, though I admit I find the image of Boromir leading a Mumakil charge rather wonderful.
We know that, canonically, the Haradrim army that fought for Sauron was absolutely vast, and from what I've been able to gather the Men of Near and Far Harad alike are a loose collective of tribes almost perpetually at each other's throats for one reason or another who only came together under Sauron because they were scared of his insane orc army. What gives me pause when talking about their army, however, is that Tolkien simply didn't care about the weird brown people from the south. We don't know how they fought, though there are some reasonable guesses we can make via extrapolating from real-world tactics, but more importantly we don't know why they fought. How did Sauron's minions first approach the Haradrim? Were the Blue Wizards trying to negate his influence? What hell could Sauron have unleashed if he'd got his claws into more of the tribes of Far Harad, where the Men are alluded to have bred with trolls? I really want to explore that in more detail, but there's nothing to go on and making huge, sweeping additions to Tolkienian canon is a charge around these parts.
Truth be told, I'm scared to do it; I don't want the really hardcore LotR fans to stab me in the gizzards for missing something when I'm writing this story. That said, I really want to tell it; the Haradrim have been ignored for far too long. =] -
Not quite about characters, but... by
on 2014-01-28 20:20:00 UTC
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What about elven ship-naming conventions? There are definitely sea-faring folk among the Elves--Alqualonde and the Grey Havens, anyone?--and a large number of the Noldor sailed to Valinor at the end of the First Age (and others did so as well in the subsequent Ages). While the only ship-name that springs to mind at the moment is Vingilot, there must have been others--or at least, I assume there were. Care to dig into how often ships were given names, what those names were inspired by, and so on?
(Why, yes, this is related to my previous call for help about translating a Noldorin Elf's Quenya name. How lovely that you noticed. What do you mean, I'm talking to myself?)
~DF -
Ships by
on 2014-01-29 12:38:00 UTC
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Now that is a tricky one. So tricky, in fact, that I have two answers.
In all the recorded history of Middle-earth, there are eight ships whose names we are told:
-Eärrámë (Q. 'Sea-Wing'), the ship of Tuor and Idril.
-Vingilótë (Q. 'Foam-Flower')/Vingilot (S.)/Rothinzil (Ad.), Eärendil's ship.
-Entulessë (Q. 'The Return'), the first Numenorean ship to return to Middle-earth.
-Númerrámar (Q. 'West-Wings'), a ship of Numenor.
-Palarran (Q. 'Far-Wanderer'), ditto.
-Hirilondë (Q. 'Haven-Finder')/Turuphanto (Q. 'Wooden Whale'), ditto.
-Eämbar (Q. 'Sea-Home'), a floating Numenorean headquarters.
-Alcarondas (Q., meaning unclear)/Aglarrâma (Ad.), the 'Castle of the Sea', Ar-Pharazon's great ship. Its name contains 'alcar', glory (and in Adunaic, 'aglar').
Every one of these ships is named in Quenya - right down to the one built by the biggest elf-hater of them all. Clearly, that's just how ships are named; since Tuor and Eärendil both learnt the art from Cirdan, they probably picked the habit up from him, as well.
Further, we can point out that every name has meaning. You don't name your ship after your mother or what have you - you name it after its role (as Entulessë), or as a description (Alcarondas, probably), or in one case after your house (Eärrámë - Tuor was the Lord of the House of the Wing in Gondolin). So that's answer number one.
But... every one of those ships was built by men - six of them, in fact, by Numenoreans, and the other two by the father and grandfather of Elros Tar-Minyatur, first King of Numenor. We know that the elves built ships, too - at Alqualonde, on the Falas, on Balar, at Mithlond and Edhellond. But of all those ships - the Swan-Ships of the Teleri, the ship of Amroth - we are never given a personal name. The only Elf-built ship which does have a name is the ship that bears the Ringbearers West - and it's known simply as 'The White Ship'. Tolkien could certainly have slipped in the Quenya form, Lossecirya or Ciryalosse, but he chose not to.
So do the Eldar actually name their ships? Given how the Teleri thought of theirs - as practically alive - I'm tempted to wonder whether they believed that each ship had its own name, intrinsic to it - and not discoverable by them (at least, not yet). On the other hand, these are elves we're talking about; their whole thing, right from the start, was assigning names to things, and awakening them.
I don't know. But I'm reminded of Philosopher at Large's comment on the fact that the Silmarillion doesn't bother to name the Ten who stood by Finrod when he left Nargothrond - because it is the elven history of Middle-earth, and they already know who they are. Could it be that the individually-crafted ships of Cirdan and the Teleri are so unique that they don't need names - that the Eldar can tell which ship they're seeing at a glance, and know which one you're talking about just by the character you describe.
It would be incredibly tricky to write - but at the same time fascinating. -
Hm...this bears thinking about. by
on 2014-02-04 00:07:00 UTC
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The thinking, mind you, should (and will) be combined with a bit of research related to who precisely built the ships the Noldor returned to Valinor in at the end of the First Age. Why, you ask? Well...nah, spoilers, but I have my reasons. I suppose they could each just be referred to as '____'s ship', but how would the groups aboard each ship be divided? How many Noldor even returned? How many ships were there?
...yeah, I've got some reading to do. Thank you very much for all of this; it will probably end up being helpful (I hope), and, at the very least, it's fascinating.
One more topic, this time a person (and unrelated to my previous questions): Finduilas, sister of Imrahil, wife of Denethor, and mother of Boromir and Faramir. What do we know about her? What would she have been like? How different do you think her family's lives, not to mention the War of the Ring, would have been had she lived?
~DF -
Finduilas by
on 2014-02-05 13:54:00 UTC
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This... sigh. This is going to be another miserable one, isn't it?
Finduilas of Dol Amroth is about as tragic as her First Age namesake. Actually, her father, Adrahil II, seems to have had something of an obsession with the original Finduilas: his other daughter, Finduilas' elder sister, was named Ivriniel, after the Pools of Ivrin - and therefore after the nickname Gwindor gave Finduilas, Faelivrin.
Why did Adrahil attempt to disguise his reasons for his elder child's name, but abandon such deception for Finduilas? We might almost suppose a disapproving relative. While his father, Angelimir, lived until 2977 - well after Finduilas' birth - we know nothing of his mother. Might she have been from a family which disapproved of the legends of the Elder Days - perhaps even a family who traced their descent back to Harondor, the Umbar-influenced southern province of Gondor which had been finally taken by the Haradrim in 2885. If she were the same age as Angelimir, she would have been some 22 years of age at the time - plenty of time for her to have picked up on the cultural, Black Numenorean influenced (though of course not actively evil) prejudices of her homeland.
Finduilas lived in an era of tension in Gondor. Twenty years before her birth, the kingdom had finally been forced to abandon most of Ithilien, while Harondor - as mentioned - had fallen fifty-odd years previously; in 2951 - the year after her birth - Sauron openly declared himself in Mordor. The Corsairs of Umbar were an ever-present threat to Dol Amroth - up until 2980, when a certain 'Thorongil' of Gondor (or Aragorn, as we later know him) burned their fleet.
But by that time, Finduilas was no longer in the city. In 2976, she was wed to Denethor, son of the Ruling Steward, and moved to Minas Tirith. The following year, her grandfather - the man who must surely have arranged such an advantageous marriage - died, leaving her father as Prince of Dol Amroth - and thus unable to visit his daughter. Finduilas, who had grown up in a Sindarin-speaking city by the sea, was now stranded, cut off from her family, speaking Westron in the shadow of the mountains.
Her new husband was twenty years older than her - at the time of their marriage, 46 to her 26 - and he seems to have been rather eager to beget an heir. Certainly there were only two years between their marriage and the birth of Boromir, indicating conception around a year after the wedding. Denethor was wise, noble, and proud - but while we are told he was deeply in love with Finduilas, we can't really imagine him whispering sweet nothings to her. Her husband's older sisters were around twice Finduilas' age, so unless her own sister travelled to Minas Tirith with her - unlikely, since in most cultures, the older sibling marries first, suggesting Ivriniel was already wed - Finduilas would have no real peers.
Instead, she turned to her books - the same books of ancient lore and tales that her younger son would later come to love. In this, she perhaps grew closer to her father-in-law: Ecthelion named his son after a famous elf of the First Age, Denethor of Ossiriand, and may well have shared Findulias' birth-father's interest in the Elder Days.
In 2983, Faramir was born, leaving Finduilas weakened - and the following year, Ecthelion died. Denethor now became more and more consumed by the affairs of the city and kingdom, leaving little time for his wife - and he certainly wouldn't have been interested in sharing tales out of the Elder Days with her (neither Boromir nor Faramir bear elven names). The shadow of Mordor hung heavy on her heart, bringing to mind the darkness of Morgoth which ultimately consumed Beleriand. She pined for the Sea - and perhaps, in part, this came from her knowledge that the only escape from darkness, for the Eldar at least, lay to the West. With only a tiny splinter of elven blood, Finduilas could never hope to sail the Straight Road - but the Sea would still be, to her mind, a defence, a shield, a last resort.
Finduilas grew weaker and weaker. Boromir, now a grown child, would have spent his time with his father, in training to become the next Steward. Only Faramir was left for Finduilas to read her stories to, and to share her dreams - including, perhaps, that famous image of a great wave overcoming the land.
And as she felt her death approaching, could she have resisted going back to that story she must have heard during her childhood - and must also have avoided from then on - the Lay of the Children of Hurin, with its heartbreaking account of her namesake's betrayal and death? Their stories were so different - but they had come, as Finduilas surely realised, to the same place. The House of Hurin had brought ruin upon them both - for the line of the Stewards bore the same name as Turin's father.
And, somewhere in the dusty libraries of Minas Tirith, I can imagine you would find a scroll, carefully rolled, bearing the story of Turin and Finduilas in a fair hand - with one passage lightly underlined:
"And this last I say to you: she alone stands between you and your doom. If you fail her, it shall not fail to find you. Farewell!"
hS -
Most of them. by
on 2014-02-04 09:35:00 UTC
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(I'll get to Finduilas later)
Most of the Noldor - and, for that matter, of the Sindar - who survived the First Age sailed straight to Valinor. In the Second Age, apart from such far-wandered as Thranduil's family, or Maglor, there were two Elven kingdoms: Lindon, run by the High King of the Noldor, and clinging on to what little was left of Beleriand, and Eregion, also led by Noldor (Galadriel, then Celebrimbor). There was no kingdom of the Sindar.
Of course, it's that 'most who survived' that makes things difficult. The survivors I can think of are:
-Galadriel, Celeborn, and anybody with them. They seem to have left Beleriand before the War of Wrath.
-The refugees of Nargothrond, Gondolin, Doriath, the Falas, and the Havens of Sirion, all on the Isle of Balar under Gil-Galad. This is the group that included Cirdan, and probably formed the population of Lindon.
-The remaining Feanorians roaming in East Beleriand, down around Amon Ereb. Their leaders were dead, but there were probably some still there.
-The Nandor of Ossiriand.
(Side note: I actually want to plot out the 'who went where' chart; it might be quite interesting)
We know that the Feanorians wouldn't really be welcome anywhere, and therefore almost had to have sailed West. I imagine a large part of the Balar contingent did, too: their choice was between going to Aman, or clinging to the last remnants of their old life. Gil-Galad stayed, and tried to remember the glory of Beleriand. I don't think most people would be up for that.
The Eregion group probably mostly stayed; they'd already found themselves a new path. And the Nandor? Their forests were gone, and there's no indication of a large resettlement operation - neither Mirkwood or Lorien shows signs of it (and, in fact, the Nandor had always been against having a king, for cultural reasons: apart from Eregion-of-the-smiths, every Elven nation was a monarchy at this point). So I think the Nandor finally finished the journey they started at Cuivienen, and sailed West.
What ships did they sail? We know the Host of the West came over in swanships of the Teleri, and based on the previous battles that had been fought, we can guess large numbers of them died. Was there enough space to just take everyone across now?
A second option is Balar - as an island, it probably had a large fleet of ships, but once they moved to Lindon, they were no longer needed. In fact, they could have docked at Mithlond, the Grey Havens, for Cirdan to fit them up for the ocean voyage.
As for how to distinguish the ships... to render it human-understandable (if you accept my no-names theory), I'd use adjectives:
"Melleth stepped aboard the sleek ship, looking out over the water. Her love had already sailed, his proud vessel cutting through the surf as it sailed to the Undying Lands. Now it was time to follow.
"Melleth turned, taking in her last sight of Middle-earth: the shattered remnants of the tall Blue Mountains, the pitiful gaggle of huts that Gil-Galad called a kingdom. How little it resembled the glory of Gondolin, or of Eithel Sirion before its fall!
"There was no point lingering, none at all. The master of the sleek ship stood by the boarding ramp, waiting for the last passengers, and then they would be off, leaving the mortal lands forever in their sleek vessel. Melleth closed her eyes. Despite everything - she would miss it."
'The sleek ship' is different to 'the proud ship', which is different to 'the flighty ship', and so on. This isn't quite how I imagine the Eldar would think of it - actually, they wouldn't necessarily think a name, but rather remember with that strange living memory the way the ship feels - but it might be how they'd say it.
hS -
Here's one for you. by
on 2014-01-28 19:48:00 UTC
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Celebrian. IIRC she's mentioned just a few times, the longest being a few lines in the appendices. To be frank, I'd like to know more... not to mention that there's a certain Legendary Badfic that somehow managed to ruin what little character she has.
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Ah, Celebrian. by
on 2014-01-29 10:33:00 UTC
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You're right that we know very little about Celebrian, apart from the tale of her capture and departure into the West. But still, there's a little to go on.
We don't actually know when Celebrian was born - but we can make a few guesses. The first time she is mentioned is way back in 1300 S.A., living in Eregion with her parents, shortly before they moved to Lorien. Eregion was founded around 700 S.A. - and I think that marks a good candidate for Celebrian's birth.
We know that elves didn't have children in times of war and upheaval. What better time to start a family than when you've just founded a nice, safe kingdom? The turmoils that marked the end of the First Age are over. You have Lindon as an ally in the west, Moria to the east - you're safe.
And then there's her name. 'Celeb-' is silver, while 'Rian' apparently derives from 'Crown-gift'. There's an obvious reference there to her hair (if, indeed, she had silver hair), as well as to her parents' names - Celeborn, and Galadriel (and yes, that is the same element - 'Maiden crowned with a festive garland'). So... if there's two meanings to her name already, why not assume a third? A silver crown or circlet seems a perfect ornament for the Lord and Lady of Eregion (Galadriel and Celeborn ruled there before Celebrimbor did); could 'Celebrian' also mean 'A gift from the silver crown'? It's speculative, but I think a birthdate of around 700 S.A. is plausible.
Around 1350-1400 S.A., Galadriel and Celeborn moved to Lorinand, the later Lothlorien. Since we know Celebrian didn't die in Eregion four hundred years later, it seems likely that she moved with her parents - and thus watched from afar as her childhood home was destroyed by Sauron's orcs. I can't imagine that was a very pleasant experience.
And then... nearly two thousand years pass before the next major event: the War of the Last Alliance. We know that Celebrian met Elrond at some point (she married him, after all) - could this have been when, with him as Gil-Galad's herald, her as part of the forces of Amdir of Lorinand? We don't know what role she took - elves didn't forbid women from becoming fighters, but she could equally have been a healer - but given what happened to Eregion, we can be certain she did take part. Amdir's forces were caught in the Dead Marshes during the Battle of Dagorlad - should we picture Celebrian anxiously waiting for news of her parents (remember, Galadriel's mother named her Nerwen, 'Man-maid' - she was a fighter, too!), or should we picture her clawing her way out of the swamp, fending off orcs with a mud-caked sword? Either is possible.
Celebrian spent the next couple of millennia with her husband (they married in 109 T.A.). Like most elves, they had their children fairly quickly, and fairly close together - the twins in 130, Arwen in 241. This isn't to say that Rivendell was perfectly safe - it sat in the eastern marches of Rhudaur, the first province of Arnor to fall to the Witch-King. Angmar rose in 1300 T.A., and for the next six hundred years Rivendell would have been in a state of tension. They were allied with Arthedain, and with Lindon - but the road between was owned by the hill-men of Rhudaur, and a dangerous route indeed. Although further away, Lorien would have been a closer friend.
And then, nearly 2000 years after her own children had been born, Celebrian found herself as a foster-mother to Arahael, son of the chieftain of the Dunedain. In fact, this was a role she continued in for the next five hundred years, fostering (with her husband, of course) a full eight future chieftains. Did she know, with some inkling of her mother's foresight, that her daughter would be bound to a future member of the line of Elendil - one of the descendents of the little mortal boys she cared for, watched grow up, grow old, and die? I don't know. Perhaps. Certainly she would have seen in them the likeness of their forefathers - both the ones she helped raise, the ones she had seen from afar as rulers of Arthedain and Arnor (and remember, Valandil son of Isildur was also raised in Rivendell), and even all the way back to their first ancestor: Elros, her husband's mortal brother.
Celebrian's injury happened in 2509 of the Third Age, while she was travelling to visit her parents in Lorien. This is not a happy time in Middle-earth: Sauron had returned from the East some 50 years earlier as the Necromancer, prompting the formation of the White Council. The Ring had just been discovered by Deagol, and in 2480, Sauron had sent orcs to fill the caves of the Misty Mountains (and reoccupy Moria). We say that Celebrian was just going to visit her parents - but given the new danger of the journey, how likely is that? Of course, she'd made the trip hundreds of times before, but she wasn't stupid: she knew that the High Pass was dangerous.
Far more likely, then, is that she was travelling as part of a messenger party, from Elrond (of the White Council) to Galadriel (ditto). Yes, she likely went along in order to see her family - but the trip as a whole had a different purpose. Given the surrounding events, I think I even know what:
In 2509 - the same year Celebrian was captured - Gondor was under siege. Cirion the Steward called for help - specifically, from the Éothéod of the northern vale of Anduin. In 2510, Eorl rode south, won the Battle of the Field of Celebrant, and founded Rohan. I can't imagine Galadriel would have let Cirion's messengers pass by without remarking on it - and sending messages to the rest of the White Council. When Elrond wanted to reply, Celebrian asked to travel with the messengers - and so the story unfolded.
So yeah... not a lot to say, really. ;)
hS -
Interesting. by
on 2014-01-29 13:24:00 UTC
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And that's actually quite a lot, you know.
Since that's quite informative, have another go... what do we know about the twins? AFAIK, not much more than their mother... -
Well, you asked. by
on 2014-01-29 14:17:00 UTC
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The children of Elrond are interesting, in that they all appear on-page, but tell us next to nothing about themselves.
Elladan and Elrohir were born in 130 T.A., their sister Arwen some hundred years later - which, by the time of the War of the Ring, makes them essentially the same age. By the year 350, they would all have been well into adulthood. They would have known that they had a Choice to make, the choice between elven immortality and the Gift of Men - but they also knew that it was far into their future.
Still, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have thought about it occasionally, and watched the events around them with a judging eye, trying to determine which life was 'better'. They would have seen, and visited, the fading remnants of the elven kingdoms - Lindon and Mithlond, Lorien and Greenwood - and would have watched the Kingdoms of Men grow into their full glory.
But then, on the flipside, they would have seen the dissolution of Arnor, and the northern Dunedain falling into civil war. They would all have witnessed the rise of Angmar - and this is where they actually step into history, for we know that the Eldar actually fought in some of those wars. Were the children of Elrond among them? Elladan, Elrohir - and even Arwen, because the Eldar didn't believe that 'women can't fight'.
Whether they took part in the wars or not, it must have made them distinctly dubious about the mortal side of their ancestry. With all the infighting, the shattered North Kingdom was a showcase of the worst men had to offer - and in the end, it was betrayal and indifference by the South Kingdom of Gondor that led to Arthedain's final ruin.
But then the coin flips the other way. A darkness awakens in Moria - and rather than helping to fight it, or the orcs which follow, Amroth of Lorien shuns the dwarves. Galadriel and Celeborn, still living in Lorien, go along with this - if, indeed, it wasn't Galadriel's suggestion, her foresight showing her a hint of what the dwarves had uncovered. Then, too, came the great shock of Amroth's death, drowning while trying to cross the Sea - a reminder that even for the Eldar, the passage West was not a foregone conclusion.
And in 2012 T.A., a small boy was brought to their house: a cousin of theirs, Elrond would have told them, though far removed in generation. Arahael, and all the little boys who followed him, showed Elrond's children what mortal men were truly like: the innocence, the honour, the glory, and, yes, the corruption, the wickedness, the thoughtlessness. It's hard to imagine Elrond didn't know what he was doing: showing his children both sides of their choice, not hiding anything, trusting them to make their own decisions.
Then comes the great shift: Celebrian is attacked, and departs for Valinor. Arwen, whether she used to be a warrior or a healer, actually seems to suffer from depression after this - she turns inwards, to the point where her sewing a banner for Aragorn is viewed as a great achievement. We know she spent time in Lorien, on Cerin Amroth - the memorial to their lost king, and in her mind, to her departed mother. Perhaps she found some peace in the timelessness of the Golden Wood.
And then came Aragorn - one of the endless stream of little boys, now grown up, a cousin become a vision out of the past. What did Arwen see in him, that made her fall so deeply in love with him - that drew her out of herself and let her help and support him? Well, she was in Lothlorien at the time... did she look into the Mirror? Perhaps.
But what about her brothers? They, too, became obsessive after Celebrian's departure - but their obsession was with hunting and killing orcs. They rode with the Dunedain on their hunts - they took those little boys and followed them into battle, defending the lands around so that no-one else would have to suffer as they did.
We all know their story in the War of the Ring, I won't repeat it here - but what about after? Arwen, of course, married Aragorn and later died, but her brothers? Tolkien remains silent on whether they sailed at last to Valinor, or stayed behind to become mortal.
To find out, let's go right back - back to their names. Names are often significant to the Eldar, and these weren't just any children - they were the sons and daughters of Galadriel's child, a child who may well have shared her mother's gift of foresight.
Arwen Undomiel is the only one known to have two names - and the first, interestingly, has the same meaning as her grandmother's. Ar-wen, 'Noble Maiden', is not so different from Galadriel's father-name, 'Artanis', 'Noble Woman'. And the second?
The Evenstar is Eärendil, Arwen's grandfather (Elrond's father). So already she is named for her two greatest grandparents - but the Evenstar name has more significance than that. Lingering in the West after the sun sets, it is a guide to the Eldar, leading them along the Straight Road - and when it fades, night has truly come.
The name is prophetic, in more ways than one. So... could the twins' names be, too? The Elf-Rider Elrohir, and the Elf-Man Elladan: might it be that Elrohir was foreseen to become a brave knight in the war with Angmar, and ultimately to choose to be an elf, while Elladan, moved by the plight of mortals, elected to join them? If so, it would be a mirror to their father's life: his own twin brother, Elros, became a mortal king, while Elrond became a powerful Elf Lord.
But like all things elven, this mirror had faded by the Fourth Age. There were no kingships or lordships remaining: just the Straight Road into the West, or life in the Last Homely House as the Reunited Kingdom grew bright and glorious - without the Eldar.
hS -
-Incoherent squees- by
on 2014-01-29 23:17:00 UTC
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I really love details about minor characters... so another question. Uglúk and Grishnákh, who are they?
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Here you go. by
on 2014-01-30 12:01:00 UTC
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Grishnakh is an Orc of Mordor, and more specifically of Barad-dur itself. He is short, crook-legged, almost apelike. This gives us the immediate impression that, unlike the tall, solid Ugluk, Grishnakh is unlikely to be a battle-line fighter. Instead, we can see him as exactly what he is: a raider, skilled at slipping into places, sneaking around, and killing without being seen.
Grishnakh is fairly high-ranking; not only is he leading a large group of Orcs on an independant assignment a long way from Mordor, he also seems to know about the One Ring - and recognises Merry's imitation of Gollum. Whether he was given this information, or obtained it for himself by eavesdropping, it is clear that he spent time actually inside Barad-dur.
Most interesting, in light of the later conflict between Shagrat and Gorbag, is that Grishnakh professes admiration and loyalty to the Nazgul. We know that even between the close-together towers of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol, the orcs saw each other as bitter rivals. It's hard to imagine Grishnakh, back in Barad-dur, speaking kindly of Morgul orcs. However, we see him putting on a united front for outsiders: against the goblins of Moria and the orcs of Isengard, Grishnakh will defend even his sworn Mordorian enemies. It would have been interesting to see how he treated forces out of Dol Guldur - another of Sauron's direct commands, but outside Mordor proper.
In Ugluk, we see a stark contrast to Grishnakh. While the Mordor orc comes across as brash, almost impulsive, Ugluk seems almost an 'elder statesman'. He, alone of his company, understands the dangers of allowing a Rohirric scout to go free, and he is a skilled enough fighter to duel Eomer hand to hand.
And he knows it. As he is fond of declaring to his 'northern rats' - "We are the fighting Uruk-Hai!" In the books, that doesn't mean he's a separate species - 'uruk' simply means 'orc', and 'hai', 'folk'. Ugluk is claiming, in effect, that his people are the only true orcs. He says it with the pride of the one who shaped them to be what they are - of an orc who clawed his way out of the mass of the likes of Grishnakh, and created a company of true warriors. He may not be their father, but they are his 'lads' nontheless. In the service of Saruman, who feeds them on man-flesh, Ugluk has fulfilled his potential as a warrior.
So how old is Ugluk? Tolkien was notoriously undecided on what, exactly, Orcs were, so the best way to answer this is to look for other examples. Bolg, son of Azog, reigned as king of the orcs of Moria from his father's death in 2799, to the Battle of the Five Armies in 2941 - some 150 years. We can certainly assume he was already a full-grown, experienced warrior at the start of his reign (orcs not being noted for their loyalty), and that he still had a good few years left in him at his final battle (or else he wouldn't have been able to fight). So let's assume an orc can live at least as long as a dwarf - around 250 years.
Knowing that, we can see that Ugluk clearly didn't begin in the service of Saruman - while already corrupted, Saruman only fell under Sauron's direct control around T.A. 3000, when the Dark Lord returned to Mordor. Nineteen years seems just a little young for Ugluk. The idea that he might have been sent to Isengard by Sauron doesn't hold up to Ugluk's obvious scorn for Mordor.
There is an answer, and it lies on the literal White Hand. Saruman originally opposed the idea of the White Council attacking Dol Guldur because he thought the slow rise of Sauron would prompt the One Ring to reveal itself; he later agreed when he realised Sauron might know where the Ring had actually been lost. His fascination with Rings of Power was already well engrained - and so we might assume that he had already tried to make his own.
With the fall of Dol Guldur, Sauron fled to Mordor. There is no word of what happened to his armies; many were no doubt destroyed, but could one Ugluk, then a raider much like Grishnakh, have retreated into the woods? Abandoned and betrayed by the Dark Lord, he could have remained there, watching, as Saruman hunted through the ruins - and, indeed, as the White Wizard forged his own, weaker but still potent, Ring. We know that the voice of Saruman was a powerful instrument of control, even before he wore a ring; augmented by his creation, might he not have seen the 'wisdom' in creating an army of his own? And could he not have called the abandoned orcs out of the forest, bringing them down to Fangorn and Isengard long before Sauron claimed him?
We might even imagine that Saruman had a 'noble' purpose in mind. He took Ugluk and his lads, the scheming, squabbling, hunchbacked, treacherous orcs of Sauron, and - through training, through control, maybe even through magic - helped them remake themselves into tall, disciplined warriors. Surely, this was an act of good! Saruman was redeeming these orcs - taking their malformed state and turning them into true warriors - the only real orcs in Middle-earth - the fighting Uruk-Hai!
Somehow, I don't think Gandalf would have been convinced.
hS -
And one last point I forgot. by
on 2014-01-30 14:22:00 UTC
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Ugluk dies in a hand-to-hand duel with Eomer. Why did Eomer do that? Is it possible that he recognised this particular leader of the Uruk-Hai? Is it possible, in fact, that Ugluk was responsible for the death of Theodred at the Battle of the Fords of Isen? Or, indeed, the murder of Eomund, Eomer's father, back in T.A. 3002? Is Ugluk not just an orc, but the orc - the one Eomer has been hunting his entire life?
hS -
More! More! by
on 2014-01-30 18:00:00 UTC
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I'm having so much fun reading those little blurbs... and since you've mentioned him now, what about Theodred?
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This one makes me sad. :( by
on 2014-01-31 11:59:00 UTC
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The most interesting thing about Theodred is who he would have surrounded himself with. As a child in Edoras, he had no real peers of his own age. His cousin Eomer was born in T.A. 2991 - thirteen years after Theodred. In fact, during his childhood, his closest kin in age would likely be his aunt: we know that Theodwyn, sister to Theoden, was born in 2963, making her fifteen when Theodred was born.
Thengel and Morwen married in 2943; their second child, Theoden, was born in 2948, a gap of five years. The gap between Eomer and Eowyn is also 4-5 years, suggesting that 'five years between children' might be the general rule for Rohan (and Gondor - there are five years between Boromir and Faramir). Given the 15 year gap between Theoden and Theodwyn, that suggests the five children were born in '43 (nine months after her parents were married), '48 (Theoden), '53, '58, '63 (Theodwyn).
Elfhild, Theodred's mother, died giving birth to him; he would not remember her. Thengel, his grandfather, king of Rohan, died when he was two, so he might just remember a grizzled old man. Interestingly, though, Morwen, Thengel's wife, was nearly 20 years younger than him; she would have been only 58 when Thengel died. Further, she was not Rohirric - she was kin to the Prince of Dol Amroth, and it has been shown that the Dol Amroth line usually lived to around 100. We know that Morwen wasn't around for the War of the Ring - or else she would have been mentioned - but she may have died only a little before (she would have been 97 in 3019).
The only other nobleman we know of, who could have been around Theodred's age, was Erkenbrand - but he was born and raised in the Hornburg, again far away from Edoras.
So we have young Theodred growing up, raised by his father, now a king, and his grandmother. His teenaged aunt grew into a beautiful woman, and when Theodred was eleven, married Eomund, Lord of Aldburg, and moved out of town. Judging by the lack of mention of them, we can suppose that his other three aunts were either dead, or simply had no (living) children - otherwise, there would later have been other candidates for the throne than Eomer. His young cousins, once they were born, lived far away in Aldburg.
There were noble children of Theodred's age, and in a similar situation to him - in Rohan, Boromir was born in 2978, making him the same age as Theodred. Faramir was five years younger - and in 2984, Ecthelion II died, making Boromir the son of the Steward. Further, in 2988, Denethor's wife died; it is hard to imagine Theodred and Boromir meeting and not bonding over their near-identical life stories. And with a Gondorian grandmother, we can easily imagine the young Crown Prince spending time in Minas Tirith.
In T.A. 3000, when Theodred was 22, Eomer 9, and Eowyn only 5, everything changed. Sauron returned to Mordor, and through the Palantiri, twisted Saruman to his alliegance. Orc raids in Rohan increased dramatically - as demonstrated by the fact that, two years later, Eomund was killed. When Theodwyn died (essentially of grief), her children (Eowyn now being seven) were brought to Edoras.
How did Theodred, now 24, handle his very young cousins? The evidence suggests that he... didn't. King Theoden was now in his mid-fifties, and grief-stricken by the death of his sister and close friend (here, we might imagine, one Grima son of Galmud was a great comfort to him). Since Theoden had been the (effective) First Marshal of the Mark, that left no effective military leader in Rohan - until Theodred stepped up. He moved out of his father's house, transferring to the Hornburg, and became Second Marshal - leader of the forces of western Rohan. In fact, he rather overstepped his bounds - Elfhelm, who was under his command at the Fords of Isen, was from the Muster of Edoras, the traditional purview of the First Marshal.
In all this, Theodred would have had to deal with Erkenbrand - the Lord of the Westfold, a capable military leader in his own right, who was now under the command of someone who was either his own age (but new-come to the West-mark) or younger than him. How well did they work together? Were they friends, or rivals, or simply superior and subordinate? It's impossible to say.
From afar, Theodred would have watched his cousin Eomer grow into a tall, proud warrior, and eventually take up his father's role as Lord of Aldburg - and, indeed, become Third Marshal of the Mark, at just as young an age as Theodred had. Stranded out in the Westfold by the constant incursions of Saruman's (though of course, no one could prove they were Saruman's) orcs, did Theodred resent his cousin's easy job, back in the safe east? Or was he too busy worrying about his father, who seemed to be turning grey ahead of his time, and every time Theodred visited was more bent, more weary, less and less like Theoden of old.
Perhaps it was Morwen's death which finally broke Theoden for good, turning him into the barely-conscious king we first see in Edoras. Perhaps, too, it was this event which finally brought Theodred and Eomer together - through mutual grief, mutual respect for each other's military prowess, and mutual recognition of the perilous state Rohan had reached. Certainly we know they did reconcile - when Theodred was slain by Saruman's treachery, he spoke his last words to Elfhelm and Grimbold:
"Let me lie here - to keep the ford until Éomer comes." -
A quick note by
on 2014-02-04 00:15:00 UTC
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Sadness aside--there's something in here you might want to change on Netilardo (given that I just checked and it's been transferred to there). Specifically, in the sixth paragraph, there's this sentence: "There were noble children of Theodred's age, and in a similar situation to him - in Rohan, Boromir was born in 2978..." Now, I don't know about you, but I always thought Boromir was born in Gondor... :)
~DF -
Gondhan, Rohdor - it's all Sindarin to me. ;) (nm) by
on 2014-02-04 07:24:00 UTC
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*agonized wail* by
on 2014-02-04 17:12:00 UTC
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(Mind you, they'd find it more painful if that was mangled Quenya, but even so... :) ~DF)
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Agent Râmwê mocks their pain. by
on 2014-02-05 10:40:00 UTC
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"How can you complain?" he says. "All your mangled languages are dischords to the ears of true Quendi as it is."
Actually, he says, "Thausâ labmêu de ho wahtâi lasû ni ho," 'Your foul-smelling languages soil my ears', since he refuses to speak or learn any language except Primitive Quendian. He also refuses to accept the concept of a writing system (holding that it cannot possibly contain the beauty of true language), and is quite possibly the PPC's most specialised agent. He's been on three missions. Like, ever.
When asked why he ever left Cuivienen, he objects that that's not how you pronounce it, and goes off in a huff. SIELU have tried to trade him to another department, but the Poison Ivy is apparently too amused by him to let them.
(Yes, I've got a whole bio for him, yes, that's decently accurate Primitive Elvish, and no, I have no real plans to put him in a story. :D)
hS -
I might need to bookmark this. by
on 2014-01-31 16:31:00 UTC
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In case I ever continue the LotR/Sherlock crossover I started a couple years ago.
Yeah, I was planning to have the Hound of the Baskervilles segment set in pre-War of the Ring Rohan, why did you ask? -
Well, it's all up on Netilardo. by
on 2014-01-31 16:40:00 UTC
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I think the only thing I haven't put up there is the Haradrim piece (which I may tidy up and do anyway). It's been a brilliant thread for ideas, actually: when I started the post, I had, what, four Theories and two Deeps? Now I'm up to something like nine and seven.
hS -
If it were me, I'd probably keep it like that. =] (nm) by
on 2014-01-31 23:12:00 UTC
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Question by
on 2014-01-31 12:58:00 UTC
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Seeing as you've mentioned him, Elfhelm. A while back I looked around for information concerning him but came up short, just how much do we know about him and where did he get his name? It's always seemed to me that someone would not be named something like that without a reason.
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Elfhelm, Elfhild, & Grimbold by
on 2014-01-31 14:17:00 UTC
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Elfhelm and Grimbold held similar positions - both were high-ranking Captains of the Mark. Grimbold was a Marshal of Westfold, while Elfhelm was in command of the defense of Edoras after the First Battle of the Fords of Isen. Grimbold was sadly killed in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, but Elfhelm survived to stand as a witness at Aragorn's coronation, and to be made Marshal of the East-mark - one of the two highest-ranking soldiers in Rohan - by King Eomer.
Grimbold, we know, was a hereditary lord of some kind - his home was called Grimslade ('Hillside dell of Grim'), suggesting that he ruled in the foothills of the White Mountains. He also appears to be a great friend of Elfhelm's - and since Elfhelm is connected to Edoras, that suggests that Grimslade is probable in the eastern parts of Westfold, near to the capital.
But what about Elfhelm? The '-helm' of his name is clear - it means helmet - but is 'elf' really 'elf'? There are four names in Middle-earth recorded with 'elf' at the beginning: Elfhelm, Elfhild (wife of Theoden), Elfstan (grandson of Sam Gamgee), and Elfwine (son of Eomer). Of these, the latter two are actually Old English translations of pretty famous names - Elfstan means 'Elf-stone', or Elessar, while Elfwine means 'Elf-friend' - Elendil.
So we can assume that Elfhelm is, indeed, named 'Elf-helm', or maybe 'Elf-protector' - and likewise that Elfhild, who died in childbirth, has a name meaning something like 'Elf-battle' (by the literal meaning of 'hild'), or 'Elf-fighter'.
Those are very unusual names in Rohan. There are no other names remotely like them in recorded Rohirric history, and they even have a common theme besides the 'elf' - both are connected to war. A mysterious, high-ranking soldier who is very close to both the son and nephew of the king, who shares a naming theme with the king's sister? I think you'd be hard-pressed not to assume they were relatives.
Elfhelm may well be the king's brother-in-law. Theoden was thirty years old when Theodred was born and Elfhild died, but that doesn't mean she was the same age. In fact, the only hint we have suggests she may have been younger: Morwen, wife of Thengel, was only 21 when they wed (though he was 38!). There is no indication of precisely when Theoden and Elfhild married, but in a world without reliable contraceptives, first children are often born pretty quickly. So Elfhild may well have been 25 or younger when she died.
If Elfhild was the elder sibling, and her parents followed the pattern of Rohirric and Gondorian nobility in spacing their children some five years apart, Elfhelm could have been 20 (or even younger) in 2978, at the birth of Prince Theodred. That would still make him some sixty years of age in the War of the Ring - which would fit his high-ranking position, even if it seems a little old. Instead of a brother, he could be a nephew (in a whole family of elf-centric names) - or simply an even younger brother (Theodwen was younger than Theoden by fifteen years - and had another sister older than him!).
And so, in his position as kinsman (but not in line for the throne), Elfhelm would have been given command of the Muster of Edoras - and responsibility for training both Theodred and Eomer in battle. And, when he discovered that young Eowyn was just as fervent as her brother about fighting the orcs who had killed her parents - and remembering that his own parents had given him the name invoking armour, while his sister had the proper fighting name - maybe he took her under his wing as well - teaching her the skills that would one day let a twenty-four-year-old woman of Middle-earth bring low the Witch-King of Angmar.
(This doesn't technically answer your question. As to where he got his name - there's no hint that Rohirrim adopted names later in life, or had any traditions of prophetic names. We could speculate about an incident in the lives of the Elf-kids' parents, or their ancestors, or even a connection to Dol Amroth and their supposed elven bloodline - but it would be pure speculation)
hS -
Thanks (nm) by
on 2014-01-31 15:02:00 UTC
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