Subject: And here I thought I'd escaped "Everyone is a Time Lord" ;) (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2013-12-10 00:41:00 UTC
-
A new theory about Tom Bombadil by
on 2013-12-06 12:53:00 UTC
Reply
Tom Bombadil, for those of you who somehow don’t already know, is a mysterious, oft-maligned, and frankly bizarre character who helps the hobbits out in the early part of The Lord of the Rings. He has managed to escape appearing in any of the film adaptations, though he does show up in a few of the games.
He’s a nature spirit, or at least was before LotR was written (“Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?”). The idea of ‘nature spirits’ seems a bit foreign to LotR, but it actually isn’t - while a lot of their traditional roles are filled by Maiar of various kinds (not to mention the Valie Yavanna), there is one key example of a genuine sentient piece of landscape: Caradhras. Ignore the films’ ideas about it being Saruman who attacked the Fellowship there - the books make it very clear that the Redhorn itself is out to get them. Admittedly the mountain doesn’t appear to be embodied, but the idea of the landscape having a personality is there.
So Tom is a nature spirit (probably). He has difficulty describing himself (‘I am’, and his wife similarly says ‘he is’), but when pressed calls himself ‘the Master’. Not the ruler of the land he personifies - the things in it, he says firmly, are not his - but its master. He can control everything in his lands, to the point where he can quell the ancient Huorn (or similar creature) Old Man Willow, and even drive out a Barrow Wight with no visible effort. He can seemingly teleport - he shows up instantly when Frodo calls from within the barrow, despite presumably being at home at the time. He’s also unaffected by the Ring - in the same way that a tree, presumably, wouldn’t turn invisible if you stuck it on a branch.
But the actual extent of Tom’s lands is a bit of a puzzler. He claims mastery over the Old Forest, including the Withywindle valley, and the Barrow Downs. But… why those limits? The boundary there is purely artificial - the Old Forest used to cover the whole of western Middle-earth, and even the Barrow-downs extend pretty much directly into the South Downs. Tom seems limited by the roads, rather than anything natural.
Which may be the explanation. As a nature spirit, the arrival of Men and all their works would be like a jab in the ribs. Every time Men put down another road, they were further binding nature to their will - and further binding Tom Bombadil to the wilderness that remained.
Okay, that actually is a new theory - but that’s not the one I was going for here. This is:
I think Tom Bombadil has a Palantir.
The evidence lies in the dreams the hobbits had while in his house. On the first night, Frodo dreams about Gandalf in Isengard, Pippin about trees surrounding the house, and Merry about rising water. Sam doesn’t dream at all. On the second night, we only hear about Frodo’s dream - of being on the Tower Hills, thinking about the Sea.
Obviously, we’re supposed to assume Pip is having nightmares about being trapped by Old Man Willow. But then… why is the house surrounded? And why is Merry - who was also trapped by the tree - dreaming about water?
My theory is that the Palantir - elven magic from Valinor - interacts with the presence of a powerful nature spirit to give people visions without them actually looking into it. It also appears to come unstuck in time, showing both the past and the future.
Assume that Saruman was actually using his Palantir at the time the hobbits lay sleeping. If he was looking westwards - perhaps searching after Gandalf, who by then had escaped - he could have opened a link with Tom’s Stone. Frodo, too, was worrying about Gandalf - so the linked Seeing Stones showed him Gandalf’s most recent connection with Orthanc, specifically his escape. The other hobbits weren’t so focussed, so the Stones, influenced by Tom, showed them something else - their own future interactions with Isengard. In Merry and Pippin’s case, that is the attack of the Ents (trees surrounding the building, trying to break in) and the subsequent flooding (the rising water). And Sam? Sam never goes anywhere near Orthanc. He only passes it on the journey home. With no connection to draw on, he simply doesn’t dream.
The next night, the Orthanc-stone isn’t open. Nor is the Anor stone, nor, fortunately, that of Minas Ithil - but the Palantir atop the White Towers, looking out over the Sea, is always active. Frodo - the only dream we’re told about - thus dreams about the Tower Hills, and the passage to Valinor which that Palantir shows.
Okay, so hopefully you accept that Tom having a Palantir at least has some support. But where did he get it? There were seven Stones originally, of course, of which four are still active - Orthanc, Anor, Ithil, and the Tower Hills. Of the remaining three, it would be highly unlikely for Tom to have gotten his hands on the Osgiliath Stone - it’s a very long way away, after all. That leaves Annuminas (capital of Arnor, later held by Arthedain) and Weathertop (on the border between the three later kingdoms).
We know that the princes of Cardolan - one of the three successor kingdoms to Arnor - were laid to rest on the Barrow-downs, which lay in their territory. We also know that the two lesser kingdoms - Cardolan and Rhudaur - squabbled over the Weathertop Palantir - since Arthedain already had one, they were rather less interested.
In 1409 of the Third Age, Weathertop fell, with its Palantir being retrieved. Shortly thereafter, the last Prince of Cardolan died, and the refugees retreated to the Barrow-downs and Old Forest. It is assumed that Arthedain took the Palantir, only for it to be later lost when Arvedui’s shop went down, hundreds of years later. But… what if it wasn’t? What if King Araphor of Arthedain - whose father had died in the failed defence of Weathertop, and thus secured the Palantir’s recovery - gave the Seeing Stone to the survivors of Cardolan in an effort to cement their alliance? After all, with Angmar-controlled Rhudaur to the east, he certainly didn’t want his southern neighbours to turn on his fragile nation as well.
So Cardolan takes the Weathertop stone - and when at last they retreat to the Old Forest, they take it with them. Two hundred years later, even the power of Tom Bombadil isn’t enough to protect them from the plague, and they die out - but the Palantir remains, and is retrieved by Tom.
It could have happened. Did Tolkien come up with it? I doubt it - the dreams I think appeared long before Treebeard was even imagined, and certainly before the fall of Cardolan was envisaged. But it could have happened.
hS -
And a second theory. by
on 2013-12-09 09:11:00 UTC
Reply
Tom Bombadil is the Doctor.
Specifically, he's the Fourth Doctor, as played by Tom (see?) Baker. He's bombastic (HMM THAT'S A FAMILIAR WORD), has an awful fashion sense, and a wicked sense of humour. Four also seems exactly the type to write appalling songs just to entertain himself. And I can totally imagine Bombadil with that shock of hair.
This presumably makes Goldberry Romana II, as played by Lalla Ward. She also has that wicked sense of humour.
It explains the time-displaced dreams (TARDIS, duh), and the teleportation (ditto), and the fact that he can claim to have been there before anyone else (ditto, again). In fact I think it can be safely said to explain everything.
This does of course mean that, in accordance with the TVTropes theory, the Doctor is in Middle-earth in no less than four incarnations: as the slightly clownish Gandalf who regenerates into the stately old man (Two and Three), then as Bombadil (Four), and a bit later as the eccentric Radagast (Seven, naturally). Whether there are more incarnations out there, I leave as an exercise to the reader (One as Saruman? Hmmm...)
"I hate good wizards in fairy tales; they always turn out to be him." ~ River Song
hS -
And here I thought I'd escaped "Everyone is a Time Lord" ;) (nm) by
on 2013-12-10 00:41:00 UTC
Reply
-
I'm so sorry, but...[ficlet incoming!] by
on 2013-12-11 03:35:00 UTC
Reply
"What do you mean, they're all Time Lords?" Brenda demanded. "They can't *all* be--"
"They are, though, it says," Charlie replied. She pointed to the console's readout. "See? James Bond, Mary Poppins, practically everyone in Middle-earth--"
"Legolas too?" Edgar asked, fascinated.
Charlie nodded. "He's Romana in disguise."
"That makes no sense, Romana never acted like--"
"He's Romana who went through the Chameleon Arch."
"Oh."
"What about Feanor?" Dawn put in. "Is he--?"
"The Master."
"You're kidding," Edgar exclaimed. "Come on, he can't--they can't *all* be--"
"It's everyone on Supernatural, too," Charlie said. "Zachariah is secretly Rassilon, Sam is not-so-secretly the Doctor, Dean is--"
"No way Dean's a Time Lord," Dawn said, shaking her head. "No way."
"Dean is the Doctor-Donna."
Dawn gaped at the younger agent, while Edgar did his best not to fall off his chair as he laughed. "What about in Harry Potter?"
"Do you have to ask?" Brenda said. "Dumbledore is Gandalf is the Doctor, Voldemort is probably the Master or Rassilon, and, well, I've definitely seen fics where Harry was the Thirteenth Doctor. The fandom's got that covered."
"What about Narnia?" Dawn asked eagerly. "Any Time Lords in Narnia?"
Charlie stared at the console for nearly a full minute before she replied. "I'm not touching Narnia. Sorry."
There was a long pause, and then Dawn sighed and stood up. "I suppose I should go check on the minis..."
And of course, that was the moment the console took to go [BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!] and make everyone jump.
--
Thank you, all. This has been DawnFire and the Random Ficlet. Hope you enjoyed.
~DF -
... oh. Oh dear. by
on 2013-12-11 10:51:00 UTC
Reply
You know, I can totally see Legolas as Romana... and Feanor as the Master, for that matter (possibly in one of his more ridiculous incarnations). Hilarious. Thank you. :)
hS -
You're welcome :) by
on 2013-12-11 18:17:00 UTC
Reply
Mind you, considering that I know very little about Romana, I'm surprised that worked so well. (I do know rather a lot about Feanor, though, so that's not as surprising).
Ever heard of Matt the Smith? Specifically, Mahtan the Smith?
I can't take credit for that, as I heard it from Lily, but it does amuse me rather a lot.
Although, I'm fairly sure I was once tossing around the idea of Mahtan being the Doctor, finally ginger, who then runs around after his descendants the Feanorians trying to fix things...not sure who I was dreaming that up with, though. Either Lily or Karen, but I'm not sure which one...probably Lily, actually, come to think of it.
Actually, could you explain to me how/why Legolas as Romana fits? I'm getting pretty curious as to what character traits they share.
~DF -
Depends on the Romana. by
on 2013-12-11 20:49:00 UTC
Reply
Obviously he shares the hair with Romana II, and in some of his later interactions with Gimli, you can see hints of the Romana II/Doctor interactions (put 'That still only counts as one!' into Tom Baker's voice... yeah, seeing it). But there's also Romana I - the haughty, far-better-than-you-in-every-way-and-knows-it version. That's pretty Legolas, too.
But mostly? It's the hair. :D
hS -
Did you know...? by
on 2013-12-11 06:55:00 UTC
Reply
There is a theory that Ms Frizzle from the Magic School Bus is a Time Lady, and that the Bus is her TARDIS? The scariest part is how much sense it makes. Here, I'll copy the lines exactly from the WMG page, so you don't have to scan for yourself:
She has a time-and-space traveling contraption that can change its size and shape and affect those around it, echoing the known facts about TARDIS, the Timelords' own time-and-space traveling contraptions. The "Magic" School Bus has shrunk in order to go through Arnold's digestive system, traveled throughout the solar system in speeds beyond the Speed of Light, and even (a sure sign of a TARDIS) gone back in time to various ages where dinosaurs still existed.
She has an eccentric personality, which is a sign of later-generation Doctors: Tom Baker and his scarf, David Tennant and his obsession with certain phrases like "Allons-y!" and "Fantastic!", etc. Perhaps all her different clothes and behavior are a sign that she is on her last regeneration. One of her previous generations may be Mary Poppins, whose handbag is a Bag of Holding.
-Ms Frizzle is obviously Iris Wildthyme's final regeneration.
-This would also explain why the bus isn't any recognizable make and appears at least 30 years too old to have been in front-line service in The Nineties.
-To further prove this point, Dr. Who was originally a children's television show where the Doctor would take children on adventures through time and space to teach them about science and history.
So yeah. Ms Frizzle is a Time Lady. I want to see more Doctor Who X Magic School Bus crossovers, pronto!
Also, because I have nothing better to do: -
I *knew* there was a fandom favorite I'd forgotten. by
on 2013-12-11 18:12:00 UTC
Reply
Yes, I've seen those theories about Ms. Frizzle. I also love those theories. I hadn't seen that second picture, though, I don't think--and it's *brilliant* :D
(There's also a theory where Welcome to Night Vale's Carlos is the same Carlos from Ms. Frizzle's class, which is pretty awesome. Just saying.)
For lack of an edit option, we'll just have to pretend Charlie's line now reads: "See? James Bond, Mary Poppins, Ms. Frizzle, practically everyone in Middle-earth--"
~DF -
You're welcome. by
on 2013-12-11 21:02:00 UTC
Reply
I have to say, this is one of my personal favorite Time Lord theories. Some of them are silly, but this one just fits, you know? It explains so much about the series, it's not even funny.
You know, I can't say I can get behind that theory. Night Vale!Carlos does not say nearly enough puns for it to be him. Further, their personalities are just not similar enough for me to see any connection beyond the name. I suppose I would laugh at some fan art, but if I saw it in a fic, I would have problems with the concept, no matter how well explained. -
Uh. Buh. Guh? by
on 2013-12-11 10:53:00 UTC
Reply
Yes. Yes please. (Where the heck did you find those pictures?)
... dangit, now I have to fight to avoid putting The Frizz into my entirely-serious 'Time Lords with Scientist Companions hang out' fic. Curse you!
hS -
I know, right? by
on 2013-12-11 20:53:00 UTC
Reply
I need to see something more! This concept is too good to waste!
I found the pictures by googling Ms. Frizzle Time Lord. There are a few more, but those are some of my favorites. I'll throw on a few more at the end of his post.
Huine (I can call you Huine, right?), just look at the the concept. Entirely-serious. Time Lords hang out. Those statements do not belong together. Things will get silly, I gar-ron-tee.
Besides, if you don't want to have the Frizz in the serious story, just write a different one. Have one where she decides to teach the class about Aliens or something. I don't know, just write something with The Frizz as a Time Lady!
Um, you know, if you want to...
Now, for more pictures!
Yes, that is Ms. Frizzle as River Song. -
*falls over laughing* Brilliant. (nm) by
on 2013-12-11 04:51:00 UTC
Reply
-
Thanks! Glad it amused you :) (nm) by
on 2013-12-11 18:17:00 UTC
Reply
-
The first one may be the most sensible theory ever, but... by
on 2013-12-09 17:35:00 UTC
Reply
...this one has got to be my favourite. I will never read those chapters in the same way.
Because, of course, there's the fact that it totally fits. And the fact that I utterly adore Four and Romana. (Their banter is the best thing ever.)
You are so brilliant.
-Aila -
The thing about theories... by
on 2013-12-10 09:27:00 UTC
Reply
... is that there are two kinds: the ones that make you go 'Hey, that sort of works', and the ones that make you laugh.
The former are what give rise to epic fanfics (and I do want to write a Fall of Cardolan story someday); the latter, though, are far more fun. Fics based on them, though? They tend to be a lot harder, because once you've made it explicit - "Oh hey, it's the Doctor talking to Frodo" - there's not much left to do with the theory. Now it's just a crossover (which may of course be excellent, but that's not the point).
I suppose one sneaky thing to do would be to write a perfectly normal fic with Bombadil in it - but write him as Four in disguise, without ever saying that you're doing so. That might be interesting...
hS -
If you write that, I will read. by
on 2013-12-11 00:47:00 UTC
Reply
Any of them.
...and that would be very sneaky indeed.
-Aila -
Ooh, I like this. by
on 2013-12-07 02:51:00 UTC
Reply
I like this a lot. If your theory is true, then this explains a lot what went on when the hobbits' were at Bombadil's. It does make sense, after all, he is, as far as I can tell from LotR, quite powerful.
~Autumn -
This is the most sensible Tom Bombadil theory I've ever seen by
on 2013-12-06 18:00:00 UTC
Reply
I really like it.
-Aila -
I like it. by
on 2013-12-06 16:01:00 UTC
Reply
I don't know very much about the Lord of the Rings and supporting texts, quite honestly. However, I do like a good theory.
I like the explanation of Tom Bombadil as a nature spirit. It makes a lot of sense. I especially like the bit about the roads marking his boundaries because they are man-made. I seem to recall something like that being used somewhere else, as well. Can't remember where, though. This section of the theory makes as much sense as any other I've heard to explain him.
As to the Palantir, I don't really know how they work. I do know about numerous systems of magic, though. It is entirely possible that two powerful magics could, if brought together, interact in unforeseen ways. Who knows, if you bring together a powerful clairvoyant artifact and a highly magical nature spirit (Or two? Wasn't his wife a water something?), you might get unpredictable visions of far off (in time and/or space) events as viewed through the lens of nature. It seems to me that most of the dreams fit that description. The only one that doesn't is Gandalf in Isengard and that could be explained by multiple highly magical beings causing another unforeseen interaction with the Isengard Palantir.
Thinking about it, if Bombadil is an earth spirit, and his wife is a water spirit, then you have the two major elements of the dreams. You have trees closing in around the house, in one, and water rising, in another. If you look at Frodo's second dream, it involves the point where earth and water come together.
So, yeah, that all could make sense.
-Phobos -
Interesting trivia: by
on 2013-12-06 17:03:00 UTC
Reply
The Eldar don't seem to have a 'four elements' system in place, but rather three. The biggest indicator of this is the Three Rings - Nenya for water (represented by diamond), Vilya for air (sapphire), and Narya for fire (ruby). There's no Ring of Earth (despite certain Mary-Sues adding one made out of Teflon!).
Thinking about this, that probably stems less from 'elements' than from the Silmarilli. There were three of them, of course, and they ended up in those three 'elements' - Earendil has one in the sky (air), Maedhros threw his into a volcano or somesuch (fire), and Maglor chucked his in the sea (water). So maybe if there had been four Jewels, there would also have been four Elven Rings?
(And, just maybe, the 'elements' also correspond to the most powerful Valar. The seven male Valar are Manwe, Aule, Mandos, Lorien, Orome, Tulkas, and Ulmo. Of those, Manwe (air) is the most powerful, and Ulmo (water) is said to know the most about Arda. Add in Aule (fire) as the one most connected to the Noldor... of the Aratar, the unmentioned are Orome (nature again) and Mandos (death). Hmmm...
hS -
The hidden fourth element by
on 2013-12-06 17:34:00 UTC
Reply
Can I just point out that all of those rings are made of metal and gemstones, and that the Silmarilli are jewels?
I think we've found our earth element. It is hidden in all of those. It is supporting all the others. Earth is, after all, a pretty low key kind of element.
On a different not, wasn't Aule the smith? Yeah...just looked it up. He created the Dwarfs. He strikes me as an earth-aligned being, making things from, since his creations tended to be made of stone and metal. I mean, he probably uses fire to do his work, but he is mainly concerned with earthen things.
I thought Melkor was the fire aligned one, though he is not on your list for obvious reasons.
Of course, I haven't even finished the Silmarillian, yet, so I could be very wrong on all that.
-Phobos -
"Earth is kind of a low-key element" by
on 2013-12-06 21:31:00 UTC
Reply
(Look at me, joining a discussion about Tolkienverse. Bear with me, most of my knowledge is movieverse.)
I find it interesting that the Earth element is not apparently obvious in objects created by powerful beings to be wielded by powerful beings. The element is still there, but for the most part, they don't notice its strength, because it is a solid, steady element, not a flashy power.
What else is solid, steady, unnoticed for the most part, with hidden strength?
Hobbits.
The powerful beings ignore the earth element, ignore the hobbits, but if they didn't remember the hobbits and the values associated with earth, we all know who'd be ruling over Middle-Earth now.
And that, to me, is one of the most important messages of Lord of the Rings - that basic, solid integrity and strength go unrecognized by power, but are actually the most important in the end.
If that was Tolkien's intention - and I never thought I'd say this with such reverence - he was brilliant. -
Nice theory... by
on 2013-12-06 14:56:00 UTC
Reply
But I'm fairly certain it is recorded somewhere in Tolkien's notes that the Weathertop Palantir was taken by Arthedain.
Two other things I'd like to point out.
1) From what I remember the Palantir at the White Towers is different to all the other Palantir and does not 'connect' in the same way as the other Palantir do, instead only looking out west over the sea and being unable to communicate with the others.
2) I'm fairly certain the Palantir don't work in dreams, because the person using the Palantir needs to be holding it to use it. The other problem with the use of the Palantir is that most of the time they only show what the other side wants the user to see, which is part of how Sauron managed to corrupt Saruman by showing him Mordor's might and how the West stood no chance against it (or so he thought). Although things can be hidden from view, like if you're using a telescope (I think, I'm trying to remember this from a book I read a few years ago).
Storme Hawk -
Three comments, but two numbers? by
on 2013-12-06 15:30:00 UTC
Reply
Time to get creative.
0/ Yes, it is. It's said that it sank with Arvedui Last-King up in Forochel, along with the Annuminas stone and various regalia of the Kings of Arnor. But given how secretly the Stones were kept (one was in the most populous city in the world, and not even Gandalf knew!), how do we know that? All right, authorial intent, but from an in-universe point of view, no-one who knew about Arvedui's possession - or lack thereof - of the Weathertop Stone survived the fall of Arthedain. My tale about giving it to Cardolan to try and keep them on side - and to relay messages, come to think of it - still works.
1/ It's true that the Tower Hills Stone doesn't connect to the other six. That could be influenced by at least three factors:
a) The Weathertop Stone was apparently larger than the other Northern stones (holding the same position as the Osgiliath Palantir in the South), and acted as 'master' to them. As I understand it from Tolkien's notes, the master-stone could cut in on any communication between two other stones. It could well have also had access to the view from the Tower Stone.
b) Not being able to be used to communicate, and not being able to be rotated as a telescope, doesn't mean it can't transmit its view to another Stone. There's no evidence for this, of course - but nor is there any against it.
c) The Weathertop Stone is held by a nature spirit ;). Who knows what that does to things?
2/ Ooh, you sneak! This is actually two points in one. "String, or nothing!" But I'm onto you, fellow bird-named person.
2a/ Yes, normally the Palantiri need to be held to be used - although the movies apparently disagree, since they still allow eye-Sauron to use them. Bearing in mind that Bombadil is capable of, at minimum, mild hypnosis (the hobbits spend literally an entire day listening to him without even getting hungry, or noticing how long it's been), transmitting visions from the Palantir - either deliberately or purely as a side-effect of its presence - seems entirely in-character. In fact, I'd argue for deliberately - remember that all three hobbits hear (or think they hear) Bombadil's/Goldberry's voice at the end of their visions.
2b/ I'm afraid on this point you're just wrong ;). The reason Sauron was able to corrupt Saruman so thoroughly is that Saruman had absolutely no right to use the Palantir. Since Sauron didn't either, it turned into a simple battle of wills - which Sauron won. Denethor, as Steward of Gondor, did have the right, so was able to tear his Stone away from Sauron's control to a far greater extent. Sauron couldn't manipulate what he saw - but, being ludicrously powerful, could (and did) influence what he thought about it. Pippin, poor thing, had neither authority nor willpower, and was literally dragged to Sauron's attention. And Aragorn? Aragorn had the ultimate authority, and (according to him) just enough willpower to turn the Palantir to his own needs. If he had continued using it, it is entirely possible Sauron would have tried to manipulate him the same way he did Denethor (and there's an AU for the asking). Bombadil, having been given the Palantir directly by a rightful chain of authority (Kings of Arthedain > Someone from Cardolan > Bombadil), had the authority - and I don't see him as someone lacking in willpower.
hS