Subject: Re: Questions about Elves
Author:
Posted on: 2013-09-04 15:24:00 UTC
It looks like you've got volunteers already for Requests 2 and 4, but if anything falls through I'll toss Arthur Briggs and Lynn Gillies into the pot. Neither is particularly paranoid, but given Briggs' military background he would be interested in reports of organized opposition to PPC missions.
And of course, they're both available for Request 5.
(I know - whoever thought you'd see a title like that from me? But bear with me)
In case you missed it, The Official Fanfiction University of Discworld a) exists, and b) ended on July 4th this year. If you're worried about spoilers, I recommend you go and read it before continuing, because I'm about to discuss the sequel. Go ahead - I'll wait.
Okay, here's the deal. Following their assault on OFUDisc, the Interdimensional Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Elves (Ispace) is on the rampage. They are well-trained and well-equipped, and they are out to prevent cruelty to elves.
Any elves.
Their current target is the Canon Protection Initiative - the PPC and the OFUs. They will fight to protect Mary-Sues (if they happen to be elves), OFU students (if they happen to be elves)... but also canons (ditto), OFU staff (ditto) and even agents (ditto, again). In one incident, they are known to have saved a 'Sue from the PPC (since she was an elf), but then kill her themselves (since she was causing harm to several canonical elves).
There are rumours of this going round HQ, with the result that (at least some) agents are getting... let's say over-zealous about canon protection. They are, basically, getting a bit paranoid - anyone in the Word World who isn't in the Words is an object of extreme suspicion, because they might be an Ispace operative.
All this is backstory and prologue for The Ispace Wars, the upcoming sequel to OFUDisc. This is not a PPC Emergency - it's actually remarkably small-scale, and HQ will never be under direct threat. But it's still something I need help with - quite a lot of help. So, as I said, I have some questions about Elves - and some requests.
Question #1: Which OFUs have elves in them? That includes not only staff members, but also any students who might have signed up as 'elves'. The definition of 'elf' being used by Ispace is very generous - it includes everything actually called by the name (including, say, House Elves), and anything which is clearly based on the concept (such as the various types of Space Elf - Vulcans, for instance).
Request #1: If you run an OFU with elves in it - can I invade you? Two chapters of The Ispace Wars will be an attack on an OFU, seen from the Ispace and OFU sides, and I'd really like to co-write or at least consult with the OFU's author. Dr Huinesoron will be on hand to help out with the repulsion, and unlike OFUDisc, I have no intention of closing down an OFU. But I would like it to be a co-write.
Question #2: What fandoms are there that have both elves and a wiki or something I can steal information from? I need to write five (yes, 5) Mary-Sue badfics with elvish 'Sues, and I can't come up with the canons. Partly this is because of...
Request #2: Who wants to write a mission into a specially-written Mary-Sue story? I need two of my five badfics to be written as missions, and while I'll write them myself if I have to, I'd much rather have other people do it. The way I see it working is for you to select a fandom and one of my five 'Sues, I write the story, and then you write a normal mission for it. One of these two missions will also involve a confrontation with Ispace, so that will turn into a true cowrite.
Request #3: Do you have a Trans-Dimensional Organisation of your own, like Ispace, the PPC, the League of Mary-Sue Factories and so on? If so, would you like them to be involved in the Ispace Wars, and signitories to the Accords afterwards? If so, great! I'd love to discuss that with you and see if I can slot them in.
Request #4: Who's willing to be publicly humiliated? ;) I have need for a pair of agents who a) don't know Dafydd Illian by sight, b) would be among those feeling paranoid and suspicious about the Ispace rumours, and c) are willing to be humiliated (but NOT harmed in any way) on a mission in Middle-earth. Oh, and they need to NOT be cyborgs or otherwise electronic. This one is less of a co-write, more of a 'put the names in the slots and tweak the scene to fit the characters' job, but it is still an important part of the story.
Catchall Request #5: At some point I will be in need of large numbers of PPC agents and OFU staff (with no connection to elves necessary). These will mostly be cameos, unless something really good comes up, but I'd love as many as I can get. If you want to volunteer your characters, please do. No harm will come to them (unless you want it to?).
I realise there's a lot to read up there, but I'm hoping you can get through it - I really need the help on this one. Thank you for reading, and if you can help - please reply!
hS
PS: I doubt it needs saying, but... any agents need Permission, of course. ~hS
in the number five catch-all.
(Darn, I waited too long for the missions bit! :( )
The species counted so far all seem to fit the more-or-less-a-human-with-pointy-ears model of elf, even if they, like the Vulcans or the Hylians, aren't elves by name, but there are other species referred to as elves that don't look the same as the standard elf does and don't behave in the standard elven manner.
What about the not-so-human elves, like the ones in Discworld or Harry Potter? I know those were based on the folkloric fey and the brownie repectively, and not the Tolkien elves, but that might mean they're even closer to the root of elfdom, since the Tolkien elves were originally based on the Norse folkloric "light elves", or the "Ljósálfar", according to Wikipedia. I'm just going to trust its spelling there.
As for the human-style elves, do they need to be follow the traditional fantasy elf body structure, or does Ispace cover any humanoid elf in their definition? Because if they do, there are still all of the elves in the Christmas specials of the world to be considered, some of which have been very, very abused and are in need of protection. I'm looking at you, vampire elves from The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Mrs. Claus had no right to turn you into her vampiric thralls.
Basically, as explained by Liliac in OFUDisc:
"[Without Elves] the whole of fiction would fall apart," she said. "We know – we've checked. There's a universe where the most popular subject for fanfic is, I kid you not, The Sound of Music – which has been remade six times. That's what happens without elves – and it still could. [...] Cruelty to elves is lessening people's respect for the fantastic. It doesn't matter if it's an original character torturing Legolas or the PPC killing a Mary-Sue – it turns the immortal into a joke. And if we let that happen, the human imagination will die."
It seems that they aren't defending any particular type of elf - more the notion of 'elf' in the human consciousness. So they'll defend House Elves (because they're called elves), and Santa's Elfs (because they're called elves), and anything which is referred to as an elf. They're a bit fundamentalist about the whole thing.
And yes, the places where this idea falls apart are part of the storyline of The Ispace Wars. I will probably address the issue of whether a character can be 'more elven' than another, too.
hS
I would definitely read that. I'd love to offer up my in-progress agents for humiliation, but unfortunately I lack Permission, and I'm still not ready to go about obtaining it.... It seems like you have plenty of volunteers anyway. Be sure to plug the finished product, because now you've got me intrigued!
-- Len :)
You can borrow my agents for a cameo if you wish.
Oh, and there are elves in the Eragon continuum, of course...
(Ducks behind desk.)
Feel free to borrow anyone from my stable. I've actually been looking for excuses to give Ilraen some battle-scars, so if you want to injure him a bit, that's fine with me. However, I reserve particularly symbolic areas such as the head and chest to damage for myself. {; ) I wouldn't mind Gall and Derik getting banged up a bit, either. Nume will avoid any situation likely to result in a physical confrontation unless there's no other choice.
Do Andalites count as Space Elves, do you think? Also, Nume is Noldo-colored and occasionally compared to Vulcans and Hugo Weaving's Elrond (it's the Eyebrows o' Doom), so if you wanted to play with that, it might work...?
I like the [wait] banners, by the way. {= )
~Neshomeh, finally starting to catch up with the week.
...But I don't actually have an agent in the PPC yet, so I'm afraid I can't participate. Too bad.
All I can say about the elves is that after LoTR, dozens of games and stories popped up sporting elves almost blatantly based off of the Eldar. Prominent examples would be Eragon and Dungeons and Dragons.
I hope that at least helps. Boonzayah!
Nice spam block picture there.
Other than LOTR, most fantasy genres have elves in them.
But then again, some are pointy-eared, and some are pointy-eared and not considered elves (don't ask me why). Do those count?
Specifically for the missions... okay, let's see what we've got:
-A 'maybe' from Desdendelle
-A 'yes' from Irish Samurai (accepted)
-The humiliation from Elcalion
-A 'yes' from Phobos
-A 'yes' from Cassie
-A 'possibly' from Lily
-And a 'possible' from hermione
Well, that's definitely enough volunteers! And I guess that means I have to make a decision...
... decisions are boring. I'll wait to hear from Desdendelle. But at this point, I don't think I'll need any more volunteers for Requests 2 & 4. Cameos at the end are still wide open, of course!
hS
(We need a better Boa- *Brick'd*)
Well, that was a definite yes to a cameo and a tentative yes to a mission, as long as you don't mind the mission running late (RL tends to kill my writing for extended periods of time).
And sorry I'm late. (And if you don't need any more at all by now, feel free to just tell me that and I shall...slink off into the distance or something. Sink into the murky waters of university and continue writing my Badfic Game entry, I suppose.)
In answer to...question and request #1--SBEI has a co-coordinator who's a Tolkien Elf (specifically, she became one at OFUM and got to stay that way since she was going on to coordinate a different OFU). Karen and I want to have a couple more chapters written before we start posting it, though, so I don't know if that's an issue--but if it isn't, I'm fairly sure we're fine to be invaded. Why not? (I shall check with Karen, but if the 'currently unposted' thing isn't an issue, I, at least, am happy to have SBEI invaded). Apart from that--do you also need elven agents? I have a pair of Calaquendi who can be used.
As for cameos at the end, feel free to use any (or all) of Agents Dawn McKenna, Edgar Sullivan, Agen____t, Brenda Loringham, Charlie Shoe, Kozar, T'Zar, Naergondir, and Gurnirel (the last two are the previously mentioned Calaquendi). If you need minis to cameo, I can volunteer some of those as well.
Hopefully some of this helps...if it doesn't, well, a little more information never hurts! Unless it's about exactly how the flesh-eating spiders currently crawling all over you usually devour their prey...no, I don't know where my mind is either. Somewhere very odd, apparently.
~DF
This... Could be interesting.
For cannons that have elves in them, let me suggest the Elder Scrolls seres. Oh lord above, do they have elves. You have Altmer, the high elves, who think themselves greater then all other races. The Bosmer, who live in the forests of Tamriel, and are masters of archery and sneaking through the undergrowth undetected. The Dunmer, dark elves who live in the volcanic wastelands of Morrowind. They worship the Daedra and are masters of summoning and have a special resistance to fire. Then the Osmer, the orcs, strong and stout, they stand among the strongest races in Tamriel. Then there's the Falmer, the Snow Elves, oh I could go on and on. Here, just look at these articles from the Elder Scrolls wiki, and you will see why it is important the Ispace visit this world:
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mer
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/ThirdAldmeriDominion - These guys are a group of elves that are trying to commit the genocide of all the races of man and beast, then later find a way to destroy the world so they can re-claim their supposed lost divinity. Yeah. Not good people.
Next, if there is a multi-dimentional group I have created that would be involved with these guys. The answer is... Not really, but I do have Jumper, my namesake and character that can travel to fictional universes. His section of the multiverse acts differently from the PPC's multiverse, so he would be really invested in keeping them out of his sector. He will be/is a PPC agent, and may well run across the Ispase on his travels outside of the PPC. I would be honored if he gets to participate in this semi-event. If you want me to write out what he does or further discuss what his role may be in this, I would be happy to do so. Just be warned, I have a rather tight school schedule right now, so I may not be able to get his bits done for a while. Just a heads up.
Ah, the Elder Scrolls. I was planning to have my agents go there on a mission (and possible story arc) sometime.
Oh, and you forgot the Dwemer, who are also classed as elves. They are also known as deep elves, or, more commonly, dwarves. In the present day as per the games, the Dwemer have been long vanished (where to and precisely how remain a mystery). However, many of their ruins remain, full of traps and steam-powered robots. (Seriously, the TCDA would love Dwemer technology.)
Oh boy,now I get the terrifying image of ISPACE trying to prevent the Disappearance of the Dwarves (and thus completely rewriting the continuum, pretty much). Although... that would hinder any attempt to prevent the blinding of the Falmer at the hands of the Dwemer...
Oh, and there is now a mini called Osmer wandering the Board. I think you meant Orsimer. (Last I heard, the type of mini was under debate - I personally would vote for mini-Daedra.)
Yeah, I was intending on sending Jumper there too, once I introduced him. Which I have to get this mission with Marvin and Printworthy done first, then introduce Jumper in the next mission of theirs. It's all planed out, don't worry about it. But yeah, Tamriel is such a beautiful world, with so much history and culture. It's almost as deep in culture as Middle Earth. In some places, dare I say, it has even more detail than Arda!
I did not forget the Dwemer, merely left them for Huinesoron to see himself. If you look on the wiki page, they are right there. Way far down the page. Yes, I too agree, Dwemer technology is awesome! Perhaps I can snag myself a spider or something when I send Jumper one of these times...
Pft, forget trying to stop the disappearance of the Dwemer, how about trying to keep the Ayleids in control? They would try to crush the rebellion and keep mankind enslaved, effectively destroying all potential for the preservation of canon. By the Nine, we have to stop them!
Oh man, I did it again. I accidentally the letters. My bad. Now what, hypothetically, as we don't decide on mini species as a board but leave them to the first mission or OFU writers, should this mini be? (I have been scolded for this in the past, so I'm just covering my bases) I agree it should be a mini Daedra, but what Daedra? There are so many, which do we pick? I think all of the atronachs are out, as they look too much like regular elementals. Nothing that really says, "That's so Skyrim!" if you see what I mean. Perhaps a mini-Daedroth, or mini-Clannfear?
The reason I thought mini-Daedra was because it would be cool if the type spawned depended on the kind of misspelling. That would leave room for a lot of fun minis... you might even get a mini of one of the princes if you misspelled something really important, like the continuum. Otherwise, whoever finds a mini gets to pick from all the varieties of Daedra, even rarer ones. There would be a whole range of choices, like the Winged Twilight or Spider Daedra, Clannfear, Ogrim, Xivilai, Dremora, Scamp, any of the Atronachs, Hunger, Dark Seducer, Golden Saint, etc. That way you can encompass a lot, which is nice in such a vast continuum.
I can certainly see Sheogorath and the PPC being a right mixture, given all the crazy agents...
Yeah, that makes sense. So if I were to, say, misspell the Shivering Isles as Sivring Ises, I would get a mini-Dark Seducer or Golden Saint. But if I misspell Dovahkiin as Dovakin, I would get a mini-Scamp or Flame Atronach. I like that idea.
Now I kinda want to make an agent who is from the Shivering Isles. Probably from Dementia, though a Manic may be interesting. Seeing how many demented agents we already have, one more aint gonna make any difference. Perhaps an Argonian, or a Dunmer. The possibilities...
... so you could have both, if you wanted. I daresay a Manic and a Demented would squabble like anything, and could be a hilarious pairing. (Alternatively, you could always visit the village of Split.)
The problem about the Elder Scrolls with choosing any one type of Daedra for the mini is that some types do not appear in all the games - Skyrim seems to be especially lacking in Daedra, certainly all the more continuum-specific ones (except perhaps the Seekers in the Dragonborn expansion).
The wiki currently states mini-Cliffracers as the Elder Scrolls mini, but it was under debate given that there does not seem to be a mission or an OFU for the continuum - and while Cliffracers are VERY annoying in Morrowind, they are extinct come the later games, so are not very representative of the continuum as a whole. I cannot see Daedra going extinct, somehow...
Oh, and the Ayleids. How could I forget them? I agree, ISPACE trying to prevent the fall of the Ayleids would cause a right mess - preventing the rise of the Empire for one.
If you're looking for any canon that contains Elves, and especially since you've got a group there that is all for the protection of said Elves... you might look into using the Anime/Manga series "Those who hunt Elves" which is a thoroughly ridiculous series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThoseWhoHunt_Elves
I WILL TAKE IT! I WILL TAKE THE RING TO -- oops.
Anyway, as of now I'm not entirely sure if there are Elves/Vulcans/pointy-eared little bastards at IAHF or MBSFA because I don't have the registration forms on hand at the moment, but I know that Agent Eledhwen, who is an Elf, happens to correspond with both institutions. Make of that what you will.
I also volunteer the Consulting Sue Slayer verse (which can be found primarily through consultingsueslayer.tumblr.com and the Study in Rose RP that Dawn and I have on her and my Time Lord!Spock blog (long story)), which is known to have Vulcans in it somewhere, so there's some Elves for ya.
I may not have time to write a mission, but if I do around the time you ask I will probably say a very enthusiastic yes because I'd major in Elvish studies here if I could.
Finally I'd say yes to public humiliation for my Agents if they didn't already know who Dafydd was. So yeah.
(also OH MY GOD KARL URBAN. /discreetly wipes drool off laptop)
I'll go for writing a mission for you as per Request #2. If it's Tolkienverse that would be best, as I have a couple of Agents in mind who can take the job and really deserve an outing of their own.
I also have vast swathes of Agents willing to take on Request #5 whenever required.
The Tolkienverse mission is the one I wasn't going to open up, because it's the one that drives the plot. Now you've got me thinking about it, though, I'm not sure anyone in PPC HQ knows where Ispace Mountain is... so... hrm.
Can you drop me an email? I have something in mind you might be interested in.
hS
Sent an email to one of your email addresses, I'm not sure if it's the right one though. :p
It looks like you've got volunteers already for Requests 2 and 4, but if anything falls through I'll toss Arthur Briggs and Lynn Gillies into the pot. Neither is particularly paranoid, but given Briggs' military background he would be interested in reports of organized opposition to PPC missions.
And of course, they're both available for Request 5.
Warcraft has no fewer than 3 types of Elves (Night, High, and Blood Elves); more if you count the mutations (Naga, Harpies, Satyrs, Darkfallen). Some people believe Elves to be an offshoot of Trolls, so I wonder if the Ispace protections go all the way back to them.
Anyway, here is a wiki.
If you are willing to write a suefic for the Warcraft Universe, I have a pair of agents (Barid and Brightbeard) who are willing and able to take it down.
My orginization, the Sue Slayers is a Multiversal concept that l''d let you use.
... that you were the person who first showed up talking about the Sue Slayers.
The role of the Sue Slayers would be fairly minor - a possible appearance forming an alliance with other organisations that share their worldview and interests, a few cameos in the ending, and (presumably) an appearance at the treaty table. If you're interested in working with me on that, can you drop me an email at the address linked behind my name?
Also, do you have a logo? I like it when people have logos.
hS
...the link to your emailisn't working. But, yes, we do have an insignia that I can post on my blog, as well as some other little things, like a map of campus and portal locations in the multiverse.
I can write some little paragraphs from The Sue Slayer's perspective. We don't have any elves, but have extensive research stations and avanced technology, which may be useful to the whole thing.
Yeah, I really like the whole idea. Drop me a line at m blog, it has a contact form.
You've posted them once before, and I'm still baffled. Except for the Starfleet insignia with a heart. That's clearly something to do with Star Trek Sues.
Oh, and in response to the main thingy, while OFAS has many Space Elves, I'm not really in a place in the story to be getting invaded. So...if nobody else volunteers...and I get another couple chapters up...maybe.
And for a big group thing, I would volunteer Sebak and Tish. But I adopted Sebak from a mission written in 2009 and wrote three stories set directly after, so I'll need to write the next mission (which is...unusual, and will involve time displacement), before they'll actually be in 2013. And honestly, I'm not sure how much writing I can do, because Real Life is going to be piling stuff on me.
So bottom line: I would love to, but that depends on whether I can write anything while Real Life is happening.
Ill have a crack at writing one of the missions (ESAS being an elf-specialising division after all), and volunteering Logan and either Kern or Riboflavin for humiliation (because I'm evil to my agents) - depends whether you think having a Jedi or a HP wizard being humiliated would be funnier as to which of Kern/Riboflavin I'll use to partner Logan.
Riboflavin joined after Dafydd retired. Logan and Kern probably haven't met/seen Dafydd but would certainly have heard of him.
Elcalion
Since Desdendelle replied first, I'll hold off accepting your offer to write one of the missions until I know if he wants to do so, but for the humiliation - brilliant! I think the best way to decide who should be in it (or, indeed, if you want to back out) would be for me to simply email you the 'generic agents' version of that scene, and then discuss how well it works. I am of course willing to change virtually everything about it to make it fit the actual characters - this is supposed to be goodfic.
I've thrown my email address in above, or if you prefer, leave yours and I'll get in touch with you. And again, thanks!
hS
Q1) Other than the obvious (OFUM), I dunno, so I'm not much help on this one :)
Q2) Well, Warhammer 40,000 has Space Elves (in Good and Evil flavours), and Warhammer Fantsay offers three different flavours. I've also seen the Navi be referred to as Elves in Space!, presumably because they have pointy ears and that whole 'living in harmony with nature' thing. I'm sure I read/watch plenty of other stuff with elves of some kind in, but I'm stuck at work at the minute, so can't check my bookshelves. I'll get back to you if I can think of any other particularly good ones.
R2) Yeah, I'd be up for writing a mission in a specifically created badfic, if you think my agents will work for what you want to achieve.
R3) Yes I do have my own Trans-Dimensional Organisation (or rather, I have ideas for them - one of these days I'll actually have to get around to writing about them), but then you knew that already. I can send you more details on them if you need it.
R4) I don't think my agents quite fit the bill here - while they wouldn't recognise Dafydd, I can't see them getting too worked about the rumours. After all, there are rumours floating round about an HQ Pool, and that's clearly nonsense!
R5) Sure, Skeet and Amy volunteer.
Has anyone claimed an Avatar (the movie by James Cameron, not The Last Airbender) badfic? Because there's a mini here (Navi) whose species I cannot recognize!
A.k.a. those giant orange lizard-bats Jake Sully learns to ride, or mind-control, or however that works.
The mission where they are first found is here. I don't blame you for not recognizing the species; I had to consult Google because I couldn't remembered the name of the creature or the mission that it came from.
I'm sure that the minis will enjoy the company of another of their kind after so long without new company. Unless toruks are territorial. It's been a while since I saw the movie.
After all the betaing work we've been throwing back and forth - not to mention Kayleigh's adoption of Aunt Sam, and your interpretation of the Sundering - I'd actually really like Skeet and Amy to make an appearance in The Ispace Wars. If you're up for it, I'd like them to take on the mission which leads to a (non-lethal!) confrontation with Ispace - which will end up being three chapters, one each from the perspective of the Sue (ie, the badfic), the PPCers, and the Ispace team. I have no plans in place for the outcome - the only requirement is that the PPCers get back to HQ and pass the word that Ispace is interfering with missions.
(Actually, Skeet and Amy would work really well - because the person coordinating the slapdash information gathering effort is Kayleigh)
If you're still interested, let me know and I'll throw you an email.
hS
Sounds fun - I look forward to your e-mail.
Question #1) From the top of my head, I know that OFU of Azeroth has elves, OFUM has Elves (but of course), and the Hogwarts Fanfiction Academy has the House Elves (as you've mentioned).
Request #1) I don't run an OFU.
Question #2) I won't bother with the more common fandoms, but here are wikis for Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. The Battle for Wesnoth has no (up-to-date) wiki per se, but its site and fora are more than enough.
Request #2) Um... not sure. More details would be welcome. (Though if I'll accept it might force me to get off my lazy ass and actually write something longer than a post in a play-by-post RP...)
Request #3) Nope, don't have one.
Request #4) I'll pass on this one. Neither Agent!Des nor Anebrin are particularly paranoid.
Request #5) They're more than up for a cameo, however.
I'm going to write five single-chapter elven Mary-Sue badfics. Since they'll be deliberately (but not parody) bad, I don't actually need to know the canon that well - just, for example, what I can pick up by skimming the Forgotten Realms wiki (maybe writer!me saw a picture of Drizzt and thinks he's hott ;)).
But because, in the context of the story, these are real badfics which exist in the multiverse, there's a decent chance the PPC will come across them. So for two of them, the Department of Intelligence will write up a report and assign an agent team.
On the practical side, because I'm writing the badfics to order, you (or whoever ends up doing it) gets to chose which of my four Sues they want to take down (they have named like Celia Bloodgage and Ravonia Darkmoor...), and also what canon you want to go into. Then I grit my teeth and write a bad story - one chapter long - and send it over for you to spork. Just like a normal mission, basically, with as little or as much writing as you choose.
My plan is then to post the badfic and the mission both as chapters of The Ispace Wars. All copyright to the mission would of course remain with the writer, and I'd have no problem with you posting it with your own stuff as well - or with you not.
Was that useful detail or just me rambling? And are you interested?
hS
Can't say I'm not tempted. But before I commit myself I'd like to know your timetable - whether the pieces are supposed to be due by some rough date, for example.
But me being me, I'm rather likely to create one at short notice at a later date.
hS
While I don't at present have a deadline or timeline, I'm likely to get very twitchy if one chapter is taking vastly longer than the rest.
hS
It might actually make me write in a pace which is faster than a snail's.
