'Culturally stagnant' according to who?

Subject: 'Culturally stagnant' according to who?
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2015-06-01 14:17:00 UTC

Oh yeah, that's right - hobbits. Noted for being trustworthy observers of things that happened millennia before they were born.

The sad fact is that we have virtually no idea about the technology, politics, and culture of Third Age Elvendom. Mirkwood was a Kingdom - absolute monarchy or parliamentary? We don't know, except that the king apparently has some negotiating authority on the battlefield (was it George II who was the last British monarch to engage in combat?). Lorien has a Lord and Lady, which (given that they don't speak Westron there) is a translation of... what? We know Celeborn and Galadriel were not monarchs - so what was the difference? How did they take power there? Hmm, looks like they never filled Frodo in on that one.

Culturally, what was the highest form of art in Imladris at the time of the War of the Ring? Unless your answer is 'councils', 'fellowships', 'songs which go tra-la-la-lally', or 'one sword', we just don't know. How many plays came out of the Grey Havens every year? How much does a Mirkwood sculpture sell for?

What was the most powerful weapon used in the (book) Battle of Five Armies? Was it the stone that knocked Bilbo out and let him conveniently not see the only canonical battle involving multiple elves? What does Lorien have on hand for keeping orcs out - just a couple of guys with bows, or something they didn't want the violent mortals to know about?

How is Rivendell kept hidden when it's just, like, right there? How come Elrond and Galadriel know so much about what's going on far away from them? How do you trap starlight in a bottle? What kind of materials go into a 'magic' camouflage cloak?

We know next to nothing about the elves of the Third Age. We know even less about the elves of the Second Age. For that matter, we don't know a whole lot about them in the First Age! Claiming they were 'culturally stagnant' is making mountains out of moles.

hS

(Not molehills. It's harder than that. Molehills don't try to run away.)

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Permission Request by KittyEden on 2015-05-30 08:10:00 UTC Reply

*crash*
*bang*
*smash*
NO LET ME BACK ONTO THE BOARD STOP DRAGGING ME OFF
*loud explosion*

...
...right, that should do it. Sorry 'bout that. Had a little issue with some killer robots, but that's all sorted now. Probably.

(*muffled wailing in the distance*)

I think I should probably tell you why they were trying to keep me from the Board, though. You see, they were afraid of the Awesomeness that would occur if I received Permission. And- oh, look at that! It's a bit of a coincidence, but it seems that I'm asking for Permission today. For the third time, but that's really not relevant.
Let's see... it looks like I have a slightly squashed cake as bribery. Not much, but I think it may encourage the more reluctant of the Permission Givers. If not, there's also Agent Kay's machine gun. He calls it 'Little Babe'.
Oh, right! The profiles and prompts!
They're right here.

*goes and hides*
Not from the PGs, you understand. Uh-huh. It's from the killer robots. They're highly dangerous. I have an irrational fear of giant killer robots, which is a story for another day.

(Thanks to DawnFire and OrangeYoshi99, as well as Maslab and Hieronymus Graubart initially, for the beta. You guys rock!)

*puts a Hat on* by Desdendelle on 2015-05-30 13:16:00 UTC Reply

*cleans his throat* Hoom, hoom.

Activity: Yeah, we all know and love you. Clear.

PPC knowledge: Mostly OK, but there are three problems. One is that Kitty and Kay are too young. I don't remember who said that over the time agents got older as the Boarders did, but a) it's true and b) the general consensus today is "no agents below teen age", especially since being an agent is no job for a little kid. 12-13 is really pushing it, I think. The second is that torture is forbidden - yes, torturing Sues is verboten, too. (That won't be a problem if Kay won't follow through on his plans.) The third and last one is that I don't think the Flowers would particularly mind two more non-Suvian people in HQ. Conversely, I'm not so sure they'll recruit such young children - see above.
Oh, also, the hallways of HQ are grey, not white.
Other than that, though, you're golden.

Fic to spork: Oh, look, a Sue. Oh look, plagiat (plagiarism). Yeah, kill it with fire, aright.

Writing ability (creative): I love your characters (aside from the aforementioned problems), the prompts are funny and there's nothing jarring I can spot. You're good.

Writing ability (technical): Looks OK to me.

So, since there are only a few mistakes to finish, I'll wait a bit until you fix them, OK? It shouldn't take you much time.

Additional comments. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-30 13:19:00 UTC Reply

(I'd dusted off my hat and all, but Des got in first. So take these as just comments. ;))

Kitty is... very very loud. I think practically every line she said was yelled, shrieked, or otherwise exclaimed. Gonna be honest, that's going to wear thin quickly. As in, it already did. (The character, not you.)

There have been very young agents in action departments before: Constance was thirteen, for instance. The evidence suggests that the Flowers do not think early teens is too young (and besides, saying you couldn't write a character your own age would be pretty silly). I'm not complaining about that.

My concerns are these:

-Kitty is very screechy. I know you're excited, but your agent doesn't need to be all the time. Think about how (in)frequently Jay displayed her 'flake' tendencies: she didn't spend her entire time spouting random nonsense, she just put it on occasionally.

-The 'methodically violent torture' part. I know you know the PPC doesn't torture. I honestly think this is just bad wording on your part - I think your meaning was either 'creative assassination' or 'tormenting Sues' (like Acacia's 'burrs in the shoes' thing). Possibly both.

-That backstory. Um, two kids beat up a veteran agent, who then let them follow him back to HQ? Then the Flowers wanted to get rid of them, but gave them a job instead? Was dropping them through a portal too much work?

Honestly, it feels like you didn't have an idea for how to bring them into the PPC, and just threw something together in five minutes. So... can you come up with something more logically coherent? Silly question - I'm pretty sure you can.

hS

Thank you. by KittyEden on 2015-05-31 04:25:00 UTC Reply

No, seriously, thank you. I needed to hear all of this, and I'm glad both of you said it.

Now that I look back at my writing, I do notice that agent!Kitty is quite loud. I'll try to tone that down a bit.
As for the 'torture' bit...
I had a discussion in the comments with some of my betas about that, and I must admit that I completely forgot to edit the text in accordance with their comments. The comments were as follows.
"This is generally very much frowned upon, and does make him appear more psychopathic/sociopathic than you may perhaps want."
"Aren’t most 12 year old boys little sociopaths and "all about wanton violence against villains", to quote Huinesoron? Judging from the ridiculous prerequisites for the given example, Kay’s “creative ideas” are impractical and will be played for fun."
"It could also be read as 'he has the Big Blue folder with the creative ideas as well as some less creative and more potentially disturbing ideas', though. It's possible that if it's meant the way HG laid out, that should be made a little clearer. I do think this could work, but...it should probably be made clear that this isn't a psychopathic/sociopathic thing like Maslab mentioned (that is, assuming that it isn't...)"
Hope that clears up a bit of the stuff surrounding that. I'll try to edit the bio in accordance when I have a bit of time.

The backstory was a bit rushed. I'll wrack my brains and think of something. :-)

Thanks for all of the comments. Just to be clear, though- should I change their ages, or shouldn't I? 'Cause I've got several different people telling me I should, and a bunch of others telling me it's fine. I'm a bit confused.

Kitty

Hm. PGs? Your opinions? by Iximaz on 2015-05-31 06:29:00 UTC Reply

I think the Flowers wouldn't have any moral qualms about hiring children, but then again, fanfics can get pretty dark and there are some things agents their age shouldn't be allowed to handle and I think they would at least recognize that.

In my opinion, if you don't send Kitty and Kay into fics that focus on a lot of gore or on-screen sex, you'd be fine.

Mm-hmm. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-31 10:52:00 UTC Reply

Des has highlighted that agents have gotten older as Boarders have - but that's not an in-universe justification, and we know that there have been agents as young as 10 (Ella Darcy, DAC). We also have one agent who was canonically 13 and in Action - but we also have Elanor Laison, who was kept out of Action at 14.

As a theory: the Flowers don't look at biological age, but at some (ill-defined) measure of maturity/suitability. Elanor wasn't suited for/able to cope with Action duties, so they kept her out; Constance was, so they put her in. Ella wasn't - but yeah, she was ten.

Given that K&K apparently beat up a veteran agent, they're clearly suited for an Action position. ;)

hS

*hits head on desk* by KittyEden on 2015-05-31 12:02:00 UTC Reply

Ack! There's paint in my hair now!

Anyway, I don't quite get what you're saying. Should I change their backstory or shouldn't I?
I get the impression that I'm being very thick, somehow. Uh... short words please?

"Do not go to the Elves for counsel..." by Huinesoron on 2015-05-31 20:43:00 UTC Reply

"... for they will say both no and yes."

I still think you should change the backstory. But, as it currently stands, it shows them as the sort of people the Flowers would recruit.

At least sort of. I don't like the idea of them randomly beating up an agent for, what, getting in the way of their cricket match? Um... could they clobber a Gary-Stu instead? One being chased by an agent, who they assume is a police officer chasing a criminal. That casts them in a rather more positive light, but still violent. They can then still sneak after the agent when he opens up a magic portal (I mean, those things don't come along every day, y'know!), and even set up camp in the Cafeteria (to watch all the cool aliens).

The conversation with whoever comes along to evict them then goes roughly like this:

Get out of our cafeteria.
"No."
Seriously, get lost.
"No."
We could drop you into the multiverse's largest ocean, you know.
"Bet you couldn't. Your agent couldn't even catch a guy we managed to stop."
... what would it take to get you to move?
"Dunno. What've you got?"
We could offer you a job.
"Does it involve hitting people with cricket bats?"
Uh... maybe?
"Great. We're in."

Or words to that effect. ^_~

hS

Well, personally... by Scapegrace on 2015-05-31 22:37:00 UTC Reply

I wouldn't go to Elves for counsel because they're a bunch of intolerable, prissy little berks with egos visible from space and no discernible technological advancement beyond, say, the fifteenth century. Apropos of nothing, one wonders how difficult it'd be to cook up a decent chemical defoliant in, say, Isengard, and smuggle a goodly amount of it through Rohan towards Lothlorien after testing it on that thing you have nearby full of walking trees that want to kill you-

Er.

This... this got off-topic fast.

(scapegrace confirmed for anti-Ispace)

(interuniversal society for the promotion and acceptance of cruelty to elves?)

(let's go with that.)

'No discernable technological advancement'? by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 09:59:00 UTC Reply

Uh, did you notice the space program? I count three major spaceships (the Sun, the Moon, and Vingilot) made with Elven involvement, and multiple Elven ships 'sailing the Straight Road' away from sea-level which look awfully like spaceships to me.

The fact that you're taking the Iron Age Hobbits at their word regarding Elven tech reflects on you, not the Eldar. Remember Galadriel's confusion about what Sam called 'magic'? That was basically 'why do you have the same word for Sauron's sorcery and our nuclear fusion reactors?'.

Severe tech imbalance makes for severely unreliable narrators.

hS

I don't buy that. Sorry. by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 11:08:00 UTC Reply

Everything in the books - and quite a lot outside it, given Tolkien's evident distate towards modernity that bordered on open hostility - points to the Elves being just better at things than other people, not that they have an actual space program. Look at Lothlorien. Now, you could draw parallels between a modern type of eco-friendly arcology kind of setup, but it's more likely they're just pointy-eared game poachers living in whatever wood they can scrounge up - because it's highly unlikely Tolkien would ever have even heard of modern green architecture ideas. Also, forgive me for saying so, but if you're using what basically amounts to a creation myth to prove that ancient elves had moon rockets then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn as needs a buyer.

Are you talking in-universe or out of it? by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 12:42:00 UTC Reply

Because out-of-universe, yes, Tolkien created elves to be (superficially) 'just better', and that's the end of it. But out-of-universe, you can't ask them for advice, or determine the size of their egos, or go defoliate Lorien, because they don't exist and are fictional creations.

In-universe, you can't draw on 'what Tolkien knew about and/or intended', or even 'what the narrator describes' - you have to assume there's a world being written about, and that world may differ significantly from what Frodo thinks it is.

hS

That still doesn't mean... by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 13:50:00 UTC Reply

That there's any truth at all in the Elves saying "Oh, the Sun and the Moon? Yeah. Totes us. We're awesome. Y'all can suck it." Only with a few more florid turns of phrase that only make sense if you've been culturally stagnant since basically forever. =]

'Culturally stagnant' according to who? by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 14:17:00 UTC Reply

Oh yeah, that's right - hobbits. Noted for being trustworthy observers of things that happened millennia before they were born.

The sad fact is that we have virtually no idea about the technology, politics, and culture of Third Age Elvendom. Mirkwood was a Kingdom - absolute monarchy or parliamentary? We don't know, except that the king apparently has some negotiating authority on the battlefield (was it George II who was the last British monarch to engage in combat?). Lorien has a Lord and Lady, which (given that they don't speak Westron there) is a translation of... what? We know Celeborn and Galadriel were not monarchs - so what was the difference? How did they take power there? Hmm, looks like they never filled Frodo in on that one.

Culturally, what was the highest form of art in Imladris at the time of the War of the Ring? Unless your answer is 'councils', 'fellowships', 'songs which go tra-la-la-lally', or 'one sword', we just don't know. How many plays came out of the Grey Havens every year? How much does a Mirkwood sculpture sell for?

What was the most powerful weapon used in the (book) Battle of Five Armies? Was it the stone that knocked Bilbo out and let him conveniently not see the only canonical battle involving multiple elves? What does Lorien have on hand for keeping orcs out - just a couple of guys with bows, or something they didn't want the violent mortals to know about?

How is Rivendell kept hidden when it's just, like, right there? How come Elrond and Galadriel know so much about what's going on far away from them? How do you trap starlight in a bottle? What kind of materials go into a 'magic' camouflage cloak?

We know next to nothing about the elves of the Third Age. We know even less about the elves of the Second Age. For that matter, we don't know a whole lot about them in the First Age! Claiming they were 'culturally stagnant' is making mountains out of moles.

hS

(Not molehills. It's harder than that. Molehills don't try to run away.)

That's still "Elves Are Just Better" though. by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 15:30:00 UTC Reply

You come from a position that elves r gud because the Professor said so. I'm coming from a position that elves r bad because what possible problems could there be with a load of tall beautiful perfect white people who are Better Than You arrayed against bestial inferior versions of themselves coming from far to the East. We're obviously not going to agree on this, but tell me this:

Do you actually believe - like, really, truly believe - that people with forever to think are just gonna stick around with stuff made of wood?

Because we didn't. And we have the benefit of actually existing.

If I may butt in briefly... by Neshomeh on 2015-06-01 15:51:00 UTC Reply

I'd really LIKE to believe that if humans actually had forever to think about things, we'd cut back on the highly mechanized pollution-causing lifestyle we've currently got and maybe get back to loving our forests more. Cuz, you know, it's pretty easy to go "Eh, so we might be wrecking the planet; who cares?" when you probably won't be around to deal with it in another 50 years or so.

Mind you, I'd miss the Internet, but if the Elves came up with some sort of invisible information-sharing network that doesn't require electricity and parts that take dangerous materials to produce, maybe we can, too. {= )

~Neshomeh, who personally prefers to enjoy the positive aspects of older works while also acknowledging the things that are problematic about them.

Which minds me of... by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 16:21:00 UTC Reply

... the Professor's oft-repeated idea that the Eldar have a fixation on preservation. It's apparently what the Rings were for, and it's definitely Galadriel's driving motivation: 'keep Lorien just the way it always has been'.

The question is, then, did Tolkien think it through that far - 'hey, immortals might want to, like, NOT wreck the world' - or was it simply a reflection of his own regret over the loss of countryside (and specifically the countryside of his childhood)? JRR Tolkien: early environmentalist, or nostalgic inner child?

hS

So what? by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 17:40:00 UTC Reply

It's my opinion that technological progress may have got us into this mess, but we ain't getting out of it by returning to feudal, scarcity-based economic structures and general-purpose Luddism. The other thing about that is that if elves are as advanced as you put about, well, they have some kind of magic-based post-scarcity society, which makes them complete tossers for not sharing with everyone else. That's what progress is for, after all, and if they are just about preserving the old order, that just makes them social reactionaries with no more business running a bath than a selection of city-states.

You missed my point. by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 15:43:00 UTC Reply

Why do you believe they're using stuff made of wood?

My point is not 'elves are just better in some indefinable way'; my point is 'we have no idea what, in-universe, elves were like, because Frodo is not a reliable source'.

Your point appears to be 'in-universe elves are bad because I can make an out-of-universe analogy'. Which is mixing the two views on the question.

In-universe, you're doing the equivalent of arguing that America can't have spaceships while Norway doesn't, because that's racist against Norwegians. Which is patently ridiculous, because the Americans are allowed to build all the spaceships they like. (As it turns out, Norway has had a space program since 1987. Apparently.)

You're arguing that elves cannot have high technology, because that would make them better. That is an out-of-universe argument. Please can we decide whether we're in or our of universe, before we even try and have a discussion. I'm willing to talk in either frame - but not both at once.

hS

Neither's an issue. by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 17:51:00 UTC Reply

Out-of-universe, they, er... well, they're the master race. Beautiful, talented, best at everything, uniformly white-skinned, and so on. It is obvious that that's what he's going for with them.

In-universe, there's a thing called 'prevailing tech level' that gets bandied around in far-future SF&F. The prevailing tech level in The Lord of the Rings is that of Europe during the tail end of the Hundred Years' War. While this may not be true of the elves themselves, I think it's disingenuous to say they're so far ahead purely because they can perform cantrips and because the narrator comes from a society in which such things do not exist. I'm not suggesting that elves could not build spaceships, given time and materials. I'm saying that from what we can actually deduce, rather than just have a stab at because you want elves to be the most super amazing and perfectest perfs who ever perfed all over the clean linen, elves haven't built moon rockets and do not possess the ability to do so.

Like I said at the beginning: you believe elves built the sun and the moon - and since you must therefore ALSO believe that Middle-Earth during the Seventh Age is OUR Earth, well... no. Basically, no. All this stuff? Sailing among the stars along the straight road? It's their mythology. Same thing as the Greeks put their gods and heroes in the sky as constellations, and with the exact same amount of relevance to actual observable reality. It's a story. It's a pleasant story full of interesting characters, but it's a story. Otherwise Earendil's got a serious problem involing a giant-ass crab monster. =]

Uh... no, it's fiction. by Huinesoron on 2015-06-01 18:50:00 UTC Reply

Neither the Greek gods nor the stories of Middle-earth have any 'relevance' to actual reality. Did you think I missed that part? That goes for everything - Frodo carrying a Ring about, for instance. That's a story. It's fiction.

But if Elrond told Frodo not to worry about it because Zeus would just zap Sauron because he got uppity, you'd call it badfic. That's because in-universe, the Middle-earth books are reality.

So no, I don't think you can call something 'mythology' which has multiple living witnesses in the setting. You're in exactly the same position as saying that Jay and Acacia (that's the real people, who posted on the PPC Board, to alleviate any confusion) are mythological.

Out-of-universe? That's a complicated story. 'Elves' are a mashup of three different things:

-The ones in The Hobbit, who are a fairly generic fantasy obstacle. You can't really tell that they're anything other than humans, actually.

-The ones in LotR, who are... close to being background colour. What they're actually standing in for is angels: they're 'otherworldly', they're something to aspire to. They don't do things. Legolas can shoot a bow passably, and he... is the only elf we see doing anything producting in the entirety of LotR, I think. Oh, Glorfindel, who pulls a 'Road to Damascus' on the Nazgul. Tolkien didn't let the Divine into the Trilogy very much, so the Eldar represent them at one remove, so to speak.

-The ones in the First Age, who are... complicated. In their original incarnation, they're somewhere between 'fun adventure' and 'English mythology' - that's why they're pale-skinned, since that's what England consisted of until preeeetty recently. They're a massive creation on the backs of the Sidhe and scattered related legends.

So yes, the Eldar of the First Age are... mythological characters. Were the Greeks inventing a Master Race when they told stories about Herakles and Perseus? No. Beleriand is Tolkien's attempt to create a mythology out of whole cloth, and so the characters are... mythological.

hS

My last word on this: by Scapegrace on 2015-06-01 19:29:00 UTC Reply

(Also I concede the point about reality, but I'm not sure how well we can define the difference between Seventh-Age!Earth's cosmology and that of Real Life!Earth. Aside from the lack of berk wandering around in a boat with a name like a piece of IKEA furniture, of course, or is that like the Voyager Probe or something? =] )

I'm not a PG, but, um... by Scapegrace on 2015-05-30 12:50:00 UTC Reply

I do have some reservations. Thirteen seems awfully young for a DMS agent, and twelve is definitely too young. I'm not convinced that the PPC is in the business of employing child soldiers. The idea of Kay employing an M1918 is... well, laughable, really. He'd be better off with an AK-74, and that isn't just my socialist ideology talking; they're easy to maintain, extremely reliable, and well-suited to missions in modern continua. Including Harry Potter, come to that. I've no idea where the idea that technology doesn't work on Hogwarts grounds comes from, but it obviously does - but that's a rant for another day.

I'm also extremely worried by this line:

"His method of violence is planned and calculated, and he has several large folders with notes on Sue-torturing."

Er, no? That's kind of the exact opposite of what the PPC is about and is so against the rules it's not funny? Um... yeah, no. I get that twelve-year-old boys have the potential to be total sociopaths (I was one, after all), but it seems doubtful that it'd be to that extent. Not in a building with a dedicated psychiatric hospital in it, anyway.

As for the prompts... I find Kitty extremely grating, but that's just my personal distaste for lolrandom humour in general and children in particular. And make no mistake - these people are children. I would no more give a child a gun than I would a refreshing glass of battery acid. Especially not one so screwed up that she collects Nitro-9.

There are issues here. Distinct issues. And they're not just the ones your agents evidently have.

However, there is hope.

We don't have a huge amount of stories detailing the Nursery - or, for that matter, agent training (what there is of it). If they were placed there, and we got stories from that kind of perspective, with other agents who are actually of age to go on missions teaching them how to work on missions and charge properly and not just be lolrandom and shooty, then we'd have a decent series on our hands. Watching Kitty and Kay grow up, and grow as people, would be a good story arc for both of them.

But going on missions as they are?

Sorry, cob. Can't see it.

On tech at Hogwarts by Fasoula on 2015-05-30 14:30:00 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure that it's stated in one of the books (a cursory Google search tells me the Goblet of Fire) that Muggle technology does not work on Hogwarts grounds. While I can't quite remember if this has ever been demonstrated in canon, Hermione was the source. I'd say she's pretty reliable. Canonically, technology malfunctions when exposed to magic, which Hogwarts is practically swimming in.

That said, I know that PPC tech works on Hogwarts grounds, so perhaps DoSAT figured out some sort of work-around. (Has that ever been explained in-universe? I've not read a lot of Harry Potter missions, so I am not certain.)

Electricity by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-05-30 20:40:00 UTC Reply

Hermione stated that electricity and some examples of technology (which all use electricity) don’t work at Hogwarts, because the concentration of magic is so very high there. Young folks these days tend to forget that awesome technology like crossbows, windmills, clockworks, steam engines and chemical photography exist, don’t use electricity, and apparently don’t malfunction when exposed to large amounts of magic. I’m not sure whether steampunk applications of electricity would work at Hogwarts; judging from context, Hermione talked mostly about electronics.

Sci-Fi technology may work at Hogwarts if we suppose that a sufficiently advanced substitute for electricity will be invented in the future. Most potterverse-missions apparently ignore the problem, but it has actually been handled both ways:

The CAD works because a Sombody Else’s Problem Field shields it from the magic.

The neuralyzer obviously cannot work at Hogwarts because it is ripped of a technology-heavy continuum and thus not sufficiently undefined magitech.

Personally, I believe that PPC technology at Hogwarts works like bleeprin – as long as the agents don’t think about recharging the batteries (read: whenever not working, rather than being funny, would distract from the other fun).

HG