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While I definitely think that Tomash should be knocked a good month into the future w/ the Ol' Ban Hammer for that little leak, banning that many people feels like it might be a tad overkill.

I believe the aforementioned Tomash said it best: "Please keep in mind that during most of the beginning of that log, the people talking were unsure whether Iximaz was alive and therefore under a lot of emotional stress."

I do think I understand, but again, my biases prevent my saying anything. Wouldn't want to be banned, after all. My hands are tied, really.

Banning people, including yourself is not the answer! Even though I may be a newbie, this cannot pass. This is not the right thing to do, banning them because they were in the DISCUSSION is going to far.

Maybe don't go full bloodthirsty, eh? I was on your side of the disgussion.

The things that were done to July here were absolutely despicable. Doxxing someone is not only illegal, it's highly immoral, and in this case it might put July in direct danger. I demand that everybody involved in that discussion be banned forthwith. If I need to be banned as well (whether as part of that discussion or for some other reason) then so be it.

I call for the ban of Tomash. I call for the ban of Alleb. I call for the ban of Akrinor. I call for the ban of Granz. I call for the ban of palindromordnilap. I call for the ban of Storme Hawk. I call for the ban of Khryssty. I call for the ban of Matt Cipher. I call for the ban of Ekyl. I call for the ban of SkarmorySilver. I call for the ban of Silenthunder. I call for the ban of Jay - Awesomeness Central. I call for the ban of Hardric. I call for the ban of Aegis. Finally, if I need to be banned as well, then so be it.

This community should be ashamed that it let such disgusting behaviour come to pass. This community should send the strongest possible message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. This community owes July at least a modicum of justice.

First: you are absolutely correct. This isn't acceptable, especially from a moderator. It's illegal, and I really think Tomash should have his mod powers stripped from him because of it.

The conversation, though? That's evidence. Tomash doing something stupid in the heat of the moment does not and should not absolve July of her alleged offence against Iximaz.

I also note I don't see a witch hunt in the logs. I see people asking for July's testimony. That's an informal trial unfolding as it should - trying to get all sides before passing judgement.

You know, it would probably be a good idea to institute a rule not to post while angry and/or extremely tired, just to avoid situations like those July's apparently prone to. Angry posts often give offence that isn't intended, and a rule banning it would protect the more fragile members of the community.

Now, it'd be good to get back to the important conversation of what are we going to do to stop this from happening again. I was wrong before - we can't do anything about July until she's here to defend herself. So let's fix the problem.

(Not really just directed at you, Tomash - more of a general comment on the trend I'm seeing.)

I'd appreciate it if we separate perceived "problems with the community" from individuals. This has happened before, I'm certain - people go "Once hS gets involved, everyone listens to him," and it comes off as an accusation towards Huinesoron. To my mind, this is utterly unreasonable. To hold someone responsible for the way the community respects or listens to them is absurd. Whether one agrees or disagrees with hS, blaming him for the fact that many in the community respects his opinion seems backwards, unfair, and often, really mean-spirited.

If you think the community doesn't take someone seriously enough, fine, say so. But to blame another voice for being taken seriously is way off. Other than telling Huinesoron to stop talking because people listen to him, I fail to see how this is a useful topic.

scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:53 PM
Or we can watch hS tell us all that nothing's wrong and everything's fine and this was an isolated incident, and we'll all go "well, he'd know, he's hS", and nothing will happen, because nothing ever happens, because nothing happening is the easiest way to cope with things.
Some of you might be sensing a little hostility.
Ekyl-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
To say the least.
scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
Cope.
SergioTurbo-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
If he goes "nothing happened", I'm the first who'll be very disappointed and the first to say that no, something HAS happened.
scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:55 PM
Not really what I meant, Sarge.
He won't say nothing happened, he'll say it's sad and he wishes them well and we'll go about our usual business and in a month it'll all be forgotten.
Because something else will have come along, and Nesh might have got another gobbet of Subjugation done, and something else might have happened, or hey, a cool Plort RP for us to sink our teeth into, or something, or something else.
And we will forget.

What the hell did I do to you, Scapegrace?

hS

I know that Iximaz thinks no one will listen to her if she speaks up.

While working to address the problem of GlarnBoudin, I heard countless variations on that theme, including (notably) the thought that, once hS initially posted on the thread expressing doubts about how bad the problem really was, everyone would take his perspective over hers.

Is Iximaz right?

I agree with most of what everyone's said, and I suppose I'm replying to this not to attack anyone's argument but to mull over some mixed feelings on the matter. I disagree that July isn't a bully, I've seen and experienced her acting downright viciously to people with little or no justification and expecting everyone to act like it's fine. There've been problems like this for years. She kicks people around with impunity and it somehow gets treated as bad when people shoot back.

That said, all of those actions have been ages ago, I've not seen July around in ages nor do I know if any of that still applies. I also know nothing of the incident Ix cited to speak as to what happened, since I wasn't present, but here's the important thing:

None of what I just said justifies doxxing somebody. The moment we look for "justified" targets for leaking names, faces, personal conversations etc., where does it end? Anyone can justify anything if they try hard enough and whatever feelings I have about the people involved, that's unacceptable, especially when somebody isn't around to speak in their own defence. That should really be as clear as day. Whatever we think about whomever, whatever the discussion being had, we should still be bound by common decency.

Posting the screenshot at all was unacceptable, that should be the end of it. Now, as far as witch hunts, I again have mixed feelings. I feel the accusations of a witch hunt, beyond what Tomash posted, don't really have much basis in fact, but as I said repeatedly in the chatlog, there seemed to be a lot of emphasis on punishing July where I honestly felt it was irrelevant to the more important discussion at hand. If we're talking about improving community standards and whatnot, that seems like a discussion that should be had without inextricably tying it with one specific spat between two PPCers. Aegis wanted to just talk to July privately, much like I was given the opportunity to speak on the matter of Brink in the chatlog, and that's fine. Overall, however, I feel it's more constructive to discuss next steps and where we go from here than going after someone who isn't really even still around.

I realize that I'm hardly the least biased person here, but I do feel that something really ought to be said, and I don't really see anyone else making the case here, so here goes.

What I'm more than aware of is that Iximaz never intended to make that post. They've been susceptible to things that are both something I'm incredibly sympathetic toward and not the subject of this post, but they did predispose her toward taking an action she never would've considered while sober.

My issue, however, is that the allegations she made don't seem to have received much, if any credulity. Actions she claims had serious consequences. Why is no one taking that seriously? Why is no one considering the possibility that while she might never have come out and said anything without being under the influence, that what she's said is the truth? And why isn't anyone looking into it to find out whether or not this is the case?

It seems to me that what I'm seeing is someone who feels harassed finally snapping and asking the community at large to actually investigate the accusations, giving credence to both sides and deciding who did what. Deciding if harassment actually did take place, and ensuring that people don't feel unsafe here again.

I think that's admirable, I think that's reasonable, and I don't think that's something for which they should be made to apologize. I think it's even beneficial to the community as a whole. Iximaz is a friend to a lot of people here—why is no one listening to her? She made the accusations in an unreasonable state, but I happen to think that's because she doesn't think anyone else here will listen to her, and at the time of posting she didn't care what happened to her in the immediate future. She could finally tell the truth, and make the community aware of what she saw as Ekyl and July harassing her.

And you're asking her to apologize for that?

You will delete any copies of that screenshot that you have. That goes for anyone who took a copy from the chat, as well. Delete it.

This ends now.

hS

Looking back, my actions regarding that screenshot were completely unacceptable. JulyFlame, I apologize for leaking that information about you. It absolutely should not have happened. Iximaz, I apologize for dragging things into the light without consulting you (or July, for that matter). I have removed the screenshot in question from the Discord.

I posted in the interest of allowing the community to be fully aware of the circumstances surrounding Iximaz's departure, so that we could learn from them. I made a huge mistake in the process of doing this, and, again, I apologize. The only possible mitigation for my actions in this matter is that I did not know whether Iximaz was alive when I made that post, and I was angry and scared.

Huinesoron, during that email conversation, I was following up on a version of Iximaz's departure post I had heard a few days earlier, which included accusations of specific groups of people being uncaring. I didn't want to say what I was looking in to for fear of a backlash. During that conversation, it became clear that you didn't know the extend of July's actions at the time or how they had affected Iximaz. When I sent you the image in question, I sought to inform you. I interpreted your final reply as dismissing the validity of Iximaz's perception of events, that is, as claiming that she should not have felt harassed by those events. If this wasn't what you meant to say, I apologize for significantly misinterpreting you.

You have not received an answer from me because I have not had time to compose it in between traveling and dealing with the present situation.

I brought you up in that message because, again, I wanted everyone to know what had happened so that things could be improved. I realize that I was talking behind your back, and I apologize for that.

I've been trying to stay out of this since I think it's a community issue and not a personal one, but I really can't anymore.

Yes, Tomash posted a screenshot he really shouldn't have. I've discussed this with him, and he's genuinely regretful for doing so without the consent of both parties, which, if you'll examine the logs, I believe you'll find we later discussed thoroughly.

I can't speak for the Discord, but I believe I'm not alone in that when I saw the post in the Discord, I believed that the damage had been done, and felt it would be buried quickly enough in the chat that anyone joining wouldn't see it unless we kept talking about it like it was there. I should've asked Tomash to delete the screenshot to mitigate the damage done to July's privacy, but I didn't. I admit I made a mistake there, and one I hope not to make again.

That said, I don't believe what happened here was a witch hunt. A few people got overzealous (names don't occur to me) but emotions were running high and not everyone can keep their head when things get that way.

What I was asking for was contact information so that I could privately speak with July, and ask to see if she would consent to that screenshot being posted. This was to be done with private information redacted, in the event that the community as a whole discussed exactly what bullying constituted, given that "harassment" can be difficult to define.

Here's 84 pages of discussion, minus one screenshot.

Please keep in mind that during most of the beginning of that log, the people talking were unsure whether Iximaz was alive and therefore under a lot of emotional stress.

To be honest, I didn't find any of this extremely concerning. Still, this has weighed heavily on my thoughts for the past day.

Restraint is a good trait to have in a public place. It is good to see you demonstrate that.

Thank you for your apology.

Seriously, guys, this needs to be said? This is basic internet etiquette/common sense/human decency.

Not okay.

Hi guys! I've seen your chat logs now.

Who wants to help me count the ways this is a horrifying post? Let's start!

1/ Tomash posted a private conversation between two people who were not him, without permission from either of them.

2/ Tomash posted about me, discussing my actions in a place where I have made it very clear I will not go. Talking about people behind their backs is explicitly called out in the PPC Constitution.

3/ Tomash misstated, if not flat-out lied about, my reaction. Here's the entire conversation concerning that picture; I received a reply from Iximaz which I have not shown, but never an answer from Tomash.

4/ Tomash chose to post July's full name and face in a public place, where there is a permanent record, without her knowledge or consent.

I'm looking desperately for anyone objecting to this. I've found one "I'm not sure about posting the image", one "you should probably censor July's name and face" (note: future tense, not past"... and one "If July really has been verbally abusive, why protect her?"

Tell me how this is acceptable behaviour. Tell me why it's okay for a moderator to publically post someone's real identity in the course of resolving an argument. Tell me why you - and I make it at least a dozen of you who were there - are perfectly fine with something that can be linked to July's real name, home, family, job, everything... being publically splashed across the internet in front of people who are busy saying how abusive she is.

Tell me. I'm listening.

hS

You are not helping. You are really not helping. And for the record? What you've written here is entirely superfluous. What you are saying is "Ix should feel bad" when, guess what? They are, and have been expressing how much throughout proceedings.

You are coming across as a comprehensive arsehole, regardless of whether or not it was your intention. I know you don't much care for either my opinion or my assessments of your character, but please: take a deep breath, then take several more. Your anger is clouding your judgement, however righteous and justified you may consider it. I've been there. For the love of God, man, what the hell are you following my lead for?

It's not like I don't feel bad enough about this whole mess. Really appreciate it.

Two easy, simple methods:
a) screencap the conversation one screen at a time.
b) copy-paste the whole conversation into a txt file or something similar.

I think that some actions you ought to be ashamed of, regardless of whether you could be held responsible for them. If you — for example — ran over a cat that jumped before your car (ie, you had no control over this and couldn't turn the wheel or change anything), I think you should still feel some sort of shame despite being stuck in a deterministic situation.
It's the same here; it's not the mental illness that Ix should be ashamed of, it's the consequences.