The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

Internet law is not my specialty, but there are multiple issues involved with doxing. You have actual federal crimes involved in some circumstances, you have state crimes, and you absolutely have privacy rights at issue.

From what I understand the message posted included both a real name and contact information. That is not acceptable. At a minimum it was a private conversation. And from what I understand neither party to that conversation agreed to its release.

And for the record, I am not treating him as a criminal per-se. I think that there should be some level of disciplinary action taken. Regardless of the legality of the conduct, it is still a flagrant violation of, if not the letter, the spirit of the constitution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the default stance of doxxing seems to be "not illegal unless it's releasing home address, SSN, etc" and full names, while not morally acceptable, is not actually illegal.

I do agree that Tomash should lose his modship (and before anyone points fingers at me, I announced my own resignation below), and possibly have a temporary ban, but treating him like a criminal when he didn't do anything illegal that I'm aware of seems a bit much.

I'm generally opposed to bans, but here I agree some need to be handed down. First, Tomash. I largely agree with Seafarer above. But I am not sure it goes far enough. I do not think 6 months is enough, this is illegal behavior, and a very clear message needs to be sent that that is unacceptable in all circumstances. I do not know if a permanent ban is required, but we need a strong response.

I actually also second one, or at least some form of discipline for Alleb and Granz as well in this case. While I agree that there should not be guilt by association, both of them did definitively ask for the private information be released. Which is also wrong.

As for the rest of them I do not think anything they did quite rises to the level of significant discipline. Unless we are starting to punish for inaction now.

But bottom line is that conversation was absolutely disgusting and SHOULD NOT be tolerated. If this community is willing to tolerate that kind of behavior then we need to reevaluate.

So you propose to ban basically everyone in that conversation.
Firstly, as Tomash said, most of us did not know wether Ix had taken their own life, so I think it's viable to say that we all might just have been a little bit tense at that time, as well as on the verge of panicking.
Secondly, a big part of the later conversation was sparked by Aegis asking you to contact JulyFlame, since you had her contact info and asking for her consent on posting the conversation on the board. All the time while you were accusing us of not even trying to get her side of the story, when it was quite clearly part of what we were trying to do.
Lastly, even if you were justified in your calls for bans, if I recall correctly, in most cases the Constitution actually doesn't allow bans for "first offenders", which, if I am not mistaken, would constitute most of those you called out, barring actual illegal activity, which, except in Tomash's case, did not apply. I think the exact phrase used was "Everyone deserves a second chance.".

~Ak

P.S. I do agree that what Tomash did was wrong, and that he at the very least should lay down his duties as a mod,; however I do understand why he did it.

If I'd say anything signifies hatred, it's Des wanting to wipe out every single person who was even present for the discussion.

To be it seems a bit too extreme, and if two people really don't want anything to do with each other they'll just refuse to interact on their own accord.

I actually see Des' point here.

What was going in that discussion was disgusting. And no, I am not going to accept the "we didn't know if Iximaz was even alive" thing - they continued well after the reveal that Ix was alright.

And what I saw made me so scared I failed to take action. I didn't stop the nastyness against July. I did only a pathetic attempt at rebuking the accusations against Huinesoron (which I'm afraid it was read as me willing to bop hS if he were to pass the thing as nothing, when I meant that if hS were to be like that I would be disappointed because that simply wouldn't have been the hS I know). I failed to help Desdendelle try to get people to reason.

I was afraid I would just become the next target, as I could be easily passed off as one of the "July-covering oldbies"

So I believe some kind of action is needed. I don't believe we should decide what right now, and of course we should look into actual individual responsibilites and not simply bring down the ban-hammer with the same setting on everyone - a couple days for cooling down before taking a decision, as ninny suggested, might be the best thing to do now.

But the sheer amount of hate I saw in that chat should not be treated lighly, and should not be let pass.

Wikipedia has this thing called an interaction ban. Basically, it's an enforced agreement not to interact with each otheR. Maybe agreement isn't the best term but I can't think of a better one right now. Anyways, if the two people involved start talking again more consequences happen.

My question is:
Would this be a good idea in the context of the PPC?

You're using Tor. You're trolling. You're Toroll, regardless of whether you're the original or a sad copycat.

Trials in absentia are definitely a thing.

But, you know, that's why I'm calling for July to be dropped from this discussion until she's actually around.

Their actions are in line with one we all know and love

It's Toroll.

Literally, that's what witch-hunt means.

And you can't have a trial without the person you're accusing in the room.

This could be a different person.

I shouldn't have used a specific example. I shouldn't have said it at all, and especially not in public. I apologize. You'll forgive me, though, for not wanting to delete the posts in question.

What Des was saying got to me in a way it really shouldn't have, as has everything else about this stupid internet drama. I'm just absolutely sick and tired of everything to do with it, and those posts? Basically made of panic at my best friend here having legitimate grievances ignored because someone else points and goes "See? They said a mean thing too! Clearly everyone's just as bad, let's just carry on as normal."

And this is just getting me angry again.

I'm sorry for what I said about you, hS. I should never have said it.

To all of those except Tomash.

I read the logs. I know that what Tomash did was awful. But I say no to guilt by association.

Here's what I say: strip Tomash of mod powers. Ban him for at least six months. Actions like his which are not only immoral but actually illegal have to be punished, or there is no justice in the community.

(Actually, I might be convinced of a lesser ban for anyone implying that July deserved it for her actions - innocent until proven guilty and punishment must fit the crime and all that. But I only saw one or two people even getting close to that.)

And with that... we need to let this go. July's not here to defend herself, so any investigation into her actions cannot continue. Right now, we need to work out how to deal with this sort of thing in future and then set it in stone, in the rules.

That's why my stance during the discussion had been to leave July out of the overall discussion. I was worried about the implications of "let's do something to make sure incidents like this don't happen again" and "let's go after July!" being talked about in the same breaths.

My first response to Ix's post was "Something looks way off about this, I'm staying out." And I planned to stay all the way out - I'm so, so very tired of drama.

But there are significant parts of that log that specifically call for punishment of July. In fact, judging from this:

Alleb-Yesterday at 11:44 AM
This dialogue feels... unproductive. We've basically just been saying "this is bad, we need to change." So are we going to? What steps do we need to take to make sure there isn't another situation like this? What are we going to do? We're writers; our business is words. Right now, though, we need action.
Khryssty-Yesterday at 11:44 AM
Thank you.
Delta Juliette-Yesterday at 11:44 AM
Aye. I should be working.
Granz-Yesterday at 11:44 AM
And who do we take action against?
Alleb-Yesterday at 11:45 AM
JF, I think. Glarn is already gone.
Granz-Yesterday at 11:45 AM
So is she, mostly.
Alleb-Yesterday at 11:45 AM
True.
But we also need to lay down plans for future incidents.
Tomash-Yesterday at 11:46 AM
Isn't it mostly "what" do we take action against?
Alleb-Yesterday at 11:46 AM
This should be a catalyst for us.
SkarmorySilver-Yesterday at 11:46 AM
I don't know if there's anything we CAN do at this point, for anyone or to anyone.
Khryssty-Yesterday at 11:46 AM
It would be easier to just let the banhammers swing and get JF completely out of the picture before any more damage can be done.

Guys . . . that's almost the definition of a witch-hunt. "This person is upset/something is wrong. We need to punish someone. Let's ban this person who we judge to be to blame." Tomash points out that the dialogue should be taking action against an action, not a person. But that bit there? Let's punish someone for this grievance? That's a witch-hunt. (Ironically, considering the last accusation of bullying, it's also very Foucaultian.) To say something cannot be called a witch-hunt because of "the heat of the moment" and "emotions were running high" is to ignore the nature of a witch hunt. . . which is, again, finding a scapegoat for a perceived problem, using emotional mob mentality. I also see nasty things being thrown at Huinesoron. Not as much at Neshomeh. I see Desdendelle, here, telling Iximaz that withdrawing from a medication, specifically one targeting the nervous system, is no excuse for lashing out. I'm guessing he's never had to deal with withdrawal from an anti-psychotic. My point is, however, that "emotions ran high" is no excuse for grabbing the torches and pitchforks to run someone out of a community.

I can't even address the doxxing. We've all played fast and loose with our own privacy over the years, when among people we trust with our identity. I have no words for how I feel seeing it rebound against someone.

In fact, let's ban everyone. Dissolve the PPC. That takes care of the problem.

Listen, this has gotten out of hand and the blame game has started to take off. No one needs to be banned just be being part of the discussion, no one needs to be hunted, no one needs to take authority on what to do. We all need to cool down. Every single one of us. Wait a few days, or even a week.


That is all I ask.