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I recognize your name! I'm pretty sure we were around at the same time, but I was also shy. (I felt like everybody was older than me and had more interesting things to say!)

For the Amazon show, I'm very excited (can't help it) and cautiously optimistic. Unless it's GoT-style dark and sexist/violent, I'll probably find things about it to love. I know some of the venerable older fans whose main playground is Second Age aren't too happy about it, but I never managed to read the Silm all the way through (felt like I needed a spreadsheet for people and places... like reading Tolstoy, but worse), so there is relatively little Amazon could ruin for me, other than by being banal and Gritty (tm) and not letting people talk through their problems (let people love each other and be soft!). I'm stoked for all the gorgeous places and architecture. I want to see how Elf and Dwarf kingdoms are laid out during their glory days, and their fashion, and their markets, and all the daily life stuff. What are you looking forward to about it?

You are an oldbie! I think. You seem old to me? In a good way. Not like you're OLD, like you were around here a long time ago. I don't want to say how long ago I joined this board but it's more than half my lifetime. Terrifying! :O

THE BOARD IS MOVING???!!111 Is this the apocalypse? Truly, I never thought I would see the day!

Bahaha! GOING ONCE...! GOING TWICE...!

Hullo. :)

Or possibly contemporaries-I-was-too-shy-to-get-to-know-bies. Either way, it's always good to see returning friendly faces, so to speak. {= D

Let me give you some of our news while you're here: we recently learned that YourWebApps will be shutting down in October, which means that the Board will at long last be moving to a new home in less than a year. Delta Juliette is one of the fine folks on top of that situation. More information (such as a new URL) will go on the wiki when we have it. Please pass the word along to anyone you know who might still want to come visit us sometimes.

I think hS has the canon question well covered, but speaking of LotR, have you folks heard about the new Amazon show, which we think is going to be spending some time on the Second Age? There has not been nearly enough nerding out about that yet. ^_^

~Neshomeh

I'd appreciate it if you guys could get this one done relatively quickly. :)

Ooh, Hobbit recut? Sounds exciting! Are you excising the White Orc entirely? Seems like that'd be tricky to pull off.

We actually watched most of B5A recently (it was on TV), and I realised then that you probably could cut together a 95% book-faithful Hobbit movie from the trilogy; they mostly added stuff, rather than totally rewriting it. It'd be tricky to make Tauriel and Legolas go away completely, though.

-- what's that? Minas where? Which Hobbit film is that in? XD

Looking through RotK again, I ran into this passage:

He went out, and soon after all the others followed. The day was still fine, though it was growing hazy, and it was hot for March, even so far southwards. Pippin felt sleepy, but the lodging seemed cheerless, and he decided to go down and explore the City. He took a few morsels that he had saved to Shadowfax, and they were graciously accepted, though the horse seemed to have no lack. Then he walked on down many winding ways.

People stared much as he passed. To his face men were gravely courteous, saluting him after the manner of Gondor with bowed head and hands upon the breast; but behind him he heard many calls, as those out of doors cried to others within to come and see the Prince of the Halflings, the companion of Mithrandir. Many used some other tongue than the Common Speech, but it was not long before he learned at least what was meant by Ernil i Pheriannath and knew that his title had gone down before him into the City.

He came at last by arched streets and many fair alleys and pavements to the lowest and widest circle, and there he was directed to the Lampwrights’ Street, a broad way running towards the Great Gate. In it he found the Old Guesthouse, a large building of grey weathered stone with two wings running back from the street, and between them a narrow greensward, behind which was the many-windowed house, fronted along its whole width by a pillared porch and a flight of steps down on to the grass. ~Return of the King

At first I was terrified that this meant that the idea of a main road through the city was wrong, but the fact that Pip is 'explor[ing] the City' means he can just not take the direct route. What it does mean is that the side-streets are much more substantial than just 'alley between two buildings', as the movies would suggest: the Lampwrights' Street runs towards the Gate, meaning it must run parallel to the wall.

Falling back on maths, from the 3100 foot diameter we can estimate that each circle is some 220 feet across. Somewhat arbitrarily, we'll call the walls 10 feet thick (Chester's are ~6ft), and guess the main road at 30 feet (Chester's high street is a wide 35, but space is a premium in Minas Tirith). That leaves 180 feet for buildings, or 90 feet on either side of the main road.

30 feet is also a reasonable figure for the size of a medieval building: a one-room house would be about half that, so we're looking at two rooms deep. In that 90 feet, then, we can comfortably fit two rows of houses, a road, and maybe an alley or two. Something like this:



Tolkien tells us the First Circle is the widest, so the upper ones are probably just one building either side of the road (or maybe the road runs against a wall), while the lowest circle would have space for another wide rank of buildings at the base of my image. That would explain why the Old Guesthouse, which seems pretty chunky, somehow doesn't face onto the main street.

Right! Having spent far too many words on that, let's consider those markets. Here's an example from Chester:



Tolkien talks about 'arched streets', so we can imagine that the raised market/walkway crosses over the various side roads on bridges. Note that these are the main steps up; there are other, narrower and steeper flights spaced along the walkway. You can picture any number of little shops spaced along the walkway, selling whatever is needed day-to-day. If we allow Gondor to work a little on the Roman model, the people might have the habit of eating out almost every meal, with food at home being unusual. I believe Rome had communal kitchens for if you did need to make something yourself, which would make a lot of sense in a city as pressed for space as Minas Tirith.

This stuff would be spread throughout the city - you don't want to walk a mile in the morning just to get your bread! - and in the more cramped circles they might do away with the walkways entirely, operating solely from the street level. Presumably the shops would mostly front onto the main highway, while the houses, where possible, would be set back.

So much for the daily shopping; what about the weekly market? Food would be brought in from the farmlands around, and there'd be a flurry of purchasing. Where would you put that?

Leaving Chester behind, let's look at Bath (never much of a hardship for me). They've taken an unusual approach to fitting the market in - it's actually underground, or at least under another building (the Guildhall). So picture your civic structures, your guardhouses and judicial courts, and yes, your guilds or their equivalent, built up to the first level, with large open areas underneath them that are only opened up on Market Day. They might be fully enclosed, or the buildings might just be held up on pillars, leaving the space as an empty pavement the rest of the time.

Where would this be? My guess is fairly low down. The bulk of the population will be in the lowest circles, and you want to centre your market on the people. The high-and-mighty lot up in their literal ivory tower can drag a handcart down and pick up their vittals just like everyone else. ^_^

There's one more market we need to consider, and it rises out of the fact that Minas Tirith is not the economic centre of Gondor. That's Pelargir, which was a massive trading hub. It almost certainly shipped goods both up and down Anduin, likely in bulk (at the least you want to fill your ship), and when those goods arrived in Gondor, it would have been huge.

People being generally lazy, the monthly(ish) Market would have its centre at the Great Gate. Tolkien tells us of a 'great paved space into which all the ways to Minas Tirith ran', and that's got to be a market square. But, people being prone to doing anything they can to get a sale, it would have spread into the city proper, as a line of stalls up the centre of the road. With a 30ft highway, you could slap in a 10ft tent and still leave room for people to squeeze past.

I don't imagine they'd spread past the first circle - that's too much effort - but up to that point, the city would be absolutely packed. The Old Guesthouse was probably one of many, mostly quiet except during market time. You'd have traders coming in from Rohan (it's easier to reach Minas Tirith than Pelargir), and even - in happier times - from the closer parts of Rhun. They'd straggle in over a week or so, join in with the trading rush on Market Day, then wander away when all their business was concluded.

... you only asked one question about markets, didn't you? Um... oops. Mooooving on:

Guests would probably stay in the same general area as who they were visiting. A guest of the court would be lodged on the Seventh Circle - Gandalf and Pippin were. If you were visiting a merchant on the Fourth, to invent an example, she'd probably recommend a nearby inn or lodging-house, or offer her guest-chamber. You don't want your guests to have to trek up- or downhill to see you, after all!

Spiral staircases can be wide or narrow, but yeah, doesn't sound like fun with a cane. Luckily, the only attested stair of that sort is in the White Tower itself, so unless you're important enough that the Steward asks you to take a room in the palace, you're probably safe.

As far as mobility aids go... I have no idea. :) Delta's said more than I could have, so I commend you to her. My Harlequin Took doesn't have any specified means of transportation except for 'friends'.

--no, hang on, I take it back! Wheelchairs are canon to Middle-earth, and are key to the story of Pippin's sister the political assassin:

Lalia [Took], in her last and fattest years, had the custom of being wheeled to the Great Door, to take the air on a fine morning. In the spring of SY 1402 her clumsy attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden. So ended a reign and life that might well have rivalled that of the Great Took.

It was widely rumoured that the attendant was Pearl (Pippin's sister), though the Tooks tried to keep the matter within the family. At the celebration of Ferumbras' accession the displeasure and regret of the family was formally expressed by the exclusion of Pearl from the ceremony and feast; but it did not escape notice that later (after a decent interval) she appeared in a splendid necklace of her name-jewels that had long lain in the hoard of the Thains. ~Letter 214, J.R.R. Tolkien

So there you go: characters unable to walk can have wheelchairs, provided they do not mind the possibility of being thrown out of them to their deaths.

hS

You would also get all-caps, but then it would look like I thought you were up for auction or something. ^_^

Hi!

hS

I have no idea about stairs!, however it is very nice to see you!

As of a very (very, very) long time ago, I was Techno-Dann! A few things have changed since then, but I'm still around.

A few minutes' research suggests that mobility technology started to show up in the late middle ages - wheelchairs and sedan chairs both show up in the 1500s. I don't know when such things would exist in Gondor, but they're also pretty significant accessibility aids.

It's really important! I obviously need to put in several hours of research into accessibility in a fictional city for a 2,000 word drabble!

I was last here in 2004-5 or so, which was certainly long enough that I imagine most people here don't know me. It's nice to meet you. :)

You never have to apologize for ridiculously long Tolkien meta, but thank you for this version as well! And that makes a lot of sense to me. From a humanistic perspective, it's also just very nice, if you're going to put your injured at the top of a mile-long road as opposed to down near the bottom, to make it accessible. (Of course, the location makes perfect sense from a defensive standpoint.)

I would think the larger markets would be nearer the bottom, which would allow farmers to not have to haul up produce and cuts of meat, or live pigs, or chickens, any great distance. I wonder if they would have markets outside the city as well for agricultural things, and then have shops with other goods, tailors and such, further up in the city.

Thank you so much for scanning that page! That was thoughtful. I've had a dreadful time trying to use google to get images that were actually useful. I'll have to get my hands on that book -- I'm not a stickler for canon myself, but I like to know what it is so I can write extensive author's notes about why I chose to ignore it. :P

And you're very welcome! I like those stairs a lot, too.

!! Hello!! I thought about bugging you about this elsewhere, but this way I can drag other people into the conversation, like Alison. :P

(And I'm good! About to start grad school for environmental studies in sustainable food production; been working for a software company for a long while now as a UX/UI designer. For fun, my current long-term project is recutting the Hobbit movies. I'd really like to finish the first one this year, but I keep getting tied in knots trying to remove certain plotlines without breaking anything. I would love to chat about this with people sometime!)

I think it has been -- if you don't count when I popped in briefly a couple years back to see if anyone knows what happened to Boz (still don't, for the record) -- uh... roughly 15 years? Who else is still around here from then, just you?

Now to business! Thank you -- I was leafing through RotK yesterday, but I haven't read it in a while and missed those passages entirely! The information about distance is super useful; I was trying to figure that myself, and I trust your rough estimate more than mine. I've never had to use a cane, so I don't know how strenuous a mile slightly uphill would be with one, but as this character is an Elf I think it is very safe to say it is doable. I would also think guests of high standing would stay in an upper circle, though I'm not sure where exactly?

I love the idea of markets one floor up! They might have ladders at various points, but perhaps actual stone steps would be only at the ends. There would be less of them, at least. Do you know what circle the markets might be at? I was assuming one of the lower ones.

And I was thinking spiral steps in towers would be unpleasant. I was in a few of those in castles in Ireland and I sort of feared for my life on occasion. Not a lot of room for a cane unless you're up against the wall -- and possibly no rail.

For people who can't walk at all, I imagine they would be moved by handcart. Now I'm wondering if Minas Tirith has goats...

Because now you've got me obsessed with this issue. XD Good luck!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-894655079

Thank you Mattman for a very good battle, you honestly were the right person to win this tournament.

If not for one scarf...

How many times have I won now?

Novastorme
Feeling way more cocky and overconfident that he has any real right to be right now.

P.S I just want to say thank you for everyone who has played in this tournament, win or loss (I know there's still the 3rd place play off to go and Ix may want to say a bit). I hope you've all had good games and fun games, I hope you've learnt something and I hope to see you all battling again next year with bigger and better teams whatever we do.

P.P.S "The styles of battling and winning are as widely varied as Trainers are. Do you want to know how I battle? I battle so I can say I had fun at the end, whether I win or lose!"

Who will win? Novastorme, fresh off his victory over Hardric? Or Mattman, well rested and prepared for this duel?

Find out in the only place on internet you can. Here: https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7ou-894655079

It was a good match, a close match and a match ultimately won by me, Novastorme.

Congratulations Hardric, unless I am mistaken you get to challenge Scape for 3rd place.

Replay here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-894645380

A moment of your time please.

Watch a semi-final match the likes of which you've never seen before as NOVASTORME takes on HARDRIC

Watch here: https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7ou-894645380

Wow, hi! Great to see you! How've you been? How long's it been?

Coming to your question, because you know I'm always here for LotR discussion, I think Snowy has covered the textual evidence pretty well. I will draw your attention to this quote from RotK:

For the people of the City used horses very little and they were seldom seen in their streets, save only those ridden by the errand-riders of their lord. And they said: ‘Surely that is one of the great steeds of the King of Rohan? Maybe the Rohirrim will come soon to strengthen us.’ But Shadowfax walked proudly up the long winding road.

As Snowy says, horses weren't much used in the city - but Shadowfax was still able to walk easily up to the top. I'm sure he could climb gentle stairs, but it doesn't fit the 'walked proudly' image for me.

A paragraph later, we read that The entrance to the Citadel also looked eastward, but was delved in the heart of the rock; thence a long lamp-lit slope ran up to the seventh gate. That 'slope' definitely suggests a ramp rather than a staircase; we know Tolkien wasn't afraid of using the word 'stair' when appropriate!

That's not to say that there weren't stairs in the White City. Gandalf and Pippin's room is on the first floor of their building, 'up a wide carven stair'. The storehouses of the Tower Guard are down a staircase, too - and access to the tombs on Rath Dinen is by steps. But for simply navigating the main highways of the city, they don't seem to be necessary.

Taking the Fonstad images as a basis, and doing some very rough measuring, I find the road from the Great Gate to the Citadel to be ca. 6400 feet long. Tolkien tells us the Citadel is 700 feet above the gate, which means you're looking at a continuous slope of about 1 in 10. In road sign terms, that's a 10% grade. I actually had to walk about 5000 feet up a ~10% hill to get to uni from town, back in the day, so I can confirm that it's quite tiring, but also perfectly doable, even laden down with shopping.

(Of course, in practice you'd expect the general slope to be shallower, with steeper areas around the gates - not only does it make urban planning easier, it's an extra defense mechanism if you're attacked.)

But.

Medieval walled cities in general have a huge problem: space. Some of them solve it by expanding outside their walls (London), but Minas Tirith doesn't seem to have done this - there's some settlement in the Pelennor, but pretty much just farms. So where do you put your growing population, and their increasing needs?

Simple: you build up.

Not too long ago we visited Chester, which developed an interesting solution to its cramped streets: one storey up, they built balconies/walkways that run the length of the street, and stuck shops off there, above the shops at ground level. Minas Tirith doesn't really have space for your classic street market, but an extra level on the front of the houses would work perfectly - and be a nightmare if you couldn't climb stairs easily.

Another thought I had is that people looooove shortcuts, and that winding path through the gates sounds horrible. The wall was still a functioning defensive structure, so you wouldn't have shortcut-stairs through it - but you can bet some enterprising Gondorians have stuck ladders up from their rooftops to the next level. After all, there's plenty of time to take them down in the unlikely event that the city is attacked. All well and good if you're able-bodied, but your character would have to take ten times as long to ascend the city.

hS

Hey! I don't think I ever knew you, but I'm always up for talking to new people! (Especially about The Lord of the Rings.)

Okay so I had a frankly ridiculous essay typed out here about theoretical stairs in Minas Tirith. It was excessive. The short version is that it's unlikely that there are stairs at the gates, and I believe one could make it all the way to the citadel gate without necessarily having to encounter a staircase (at which point there are probably stairs going from the sixth level up to the seventh).

My reasoning is this: The Houses of Healing are in the sixth circle, just shy of the gate to the seventh, and, being the primary location for medical care in Minas Tirith, they must have had a great deal of supplies moving in and out, especially in wartime. And the easiest way to move large quantities of supplies in a medieval world is by cart. Horse-drawn carts were not a thing inside the city, but handcarts were, and you wouldn't want any obstructions in the way of herbs and bandages and food coming up, not to mention water (Tolkien never did explain how they got water to the higher levels of the city, but I imagine there was a whole economic system dedicated to it. Unless they had something like modern plumbing. Tolkien never said they didn't.), or, shall we say, waste products going back down.

Tolkien never told us where the major markets are, but there's at least one inn in the fifth or sixth circle which would have the same need of transporting large quantities of supplies, presumably in handcarts.

Additionally, I scanned and uploaded a page from Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth which has a diagram of Minas Tirith on it. (Mz. Fonstad's work, while not strictly canon, is exceptionally well researched and exhaustively cited, and generally a Good Resource.) The point of this picture is that it demonstrates quite well the massive size of Minas Tirith, especially its width. So, while it was quite tall, it was also very wide and the incline was not necessarily steep enough to really require stairs.

But if we're just looking at what's cool, I love that ramp/stair combo and it is absolutely my new headcanon for the architecture in parts of Minas Tirith. So. Thank you. You made my night a little brighter by introducing that idea into my life.

Anyhow, hope this helps. Have a wonderful evening or whatever time of day it is for you!

Hi!

Some of you already know me (Huinesoron, at least) - I was a member here a very (very, very) long time ago and went by fondued jicama, but the name's Abby (or hellebored on ao3, philosoverted on tumblr).

I have a question and figured I'd try for opinions here, because large lotr/silm discords are kind of scary places, haha.

I have a character whose mobility is reliant on a cane, and I'm trying to figure out how they'd ascend/descend in Minas Tirith. I know the way the circles work and where the gates are; what I don't know is whether, specifically when passing up *through* the gates, they would need to climb steps. Perhaps there is some combination of steps and ramp (https://imgur.com/gallery/wfqB1Vv). Perhaps the switchback is simply gentle enough a stairs isn't needed.

Do any of you have thoughts on this? Or, if you're feeling generous, thoughts on accessibility in a medieval city in general?