Fair, but not the only thing I was addressing.

Subject: Fair, but not the only thing I was addressing.
Author: Ekyl
Posted on: 2014-12-06 03:05:00 UTC

Doc has noted his preference for keeping us as out of the eye of anywhere else as possible before, such as here: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=259289 (I forgot how to link on yourwebapps :( )

"I'm not worried what other people might think of us, I'm worried that they might think of us at all."

Like I said, about halfway through I started worrying that it sounded like I was unfairly taking him to task, which is why I tried to stress that I'm not personally going after him here. It's just that "let's stay totally isolationist" seems to be his recurring stance and he tends to jump to the absolute worst case as if it's a given, and I don't feel that is a healthy attitude to take to the PPC. We can't put the entire community into a bottle and never try to expand just because bad things might happen, and I'll admit that I think I misunderstood part of his original post, which is why I made that "museum exhibit" comment. "Before I have the chance to archive it" read to me as "what matters is my archive" which was completely unfair, and I apologise for that.

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Floating an idea. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 12:26:00 UTC Reply

So. This:

The people on the PPC Board are brilliant, and our posts/person (not shown) has actually gone up slightly of late. But... there's not very many of us (about 50, last month). And my feeling is that it's because we're not that easy to find.

So I propose that we remedy that by posting some of our missions where people can easily find them. I already started that with PPC: Driftwood, and now I propose a new series - Welcome to the PPC.

The concept for WPPC consists of people volunteering their old missions to be posted on FF.net. The mission would be credited to you, and posted in either a disposable account, or under my SturmUndSquee name. For instance, if I was volunteering Of Wolves and Fellowship, it would go up under the title Welcome to the PPC: Agent Huinesoron, with a blurb something like this:

From the archives of the Protectors of the Plot Continuum. Agents Huinesoron and Kaitlyn demonstrate that turning Pippin into a werewolf just isn't worth the trouble.

Inside, there would be a headnote disclaimer saying: This mission was written by Huinesoron of the PPC, and is posted here with permission from the author. You'd also have a full disclaimer at the end, disclaiming all the canons, the mission again, and the badfic, as well as a note saying If you'd like to read more about the Protectors of the Plot Continuum, search for us on Google! or somesuch.

And that's basically it. By posting the missions separately, they can be in the right canons, and by only posting one mission per team, we're sticking to the 'Welcome...' theme, rather than just saying 'post your stuff on FF.net'. If one of them gets taken down, it's no big deal - they're all hosted elsewhere anyway.

The only real restrictions on what you could volunteer would be the FF.net TOS (no script format, no NC-17, not previously posted on FF.net), and the common-sense aspect of 'don't put in something that relies on reading your other missions'. It should be a mission that someone browsing FF.net can find, read, and enjoy - and then maybe decide to come to the Board and join in the fun.

So what do people think? It seems like it would draw in at least a few of our traditional demographic, 'people who read fanfic', which is always a good thing; and in the event that the newcomers don't fit in, they'll just, y'know, leave. It does run the risk of attracting flames, and potentially even an irate Suethor visit to the Board - but we can handle that and laugh about it.

hS

Ooh by firemagic on 2014-12-07 18:07:00 UTC Reply

I think I might volunteer Lana and Narav's first mission (Wings and Water) for this! That's the one over here:

Either this one or Amara, Cepha, and Fio's first mission (A Different Kind of Witch). I'll reread them to make sure they're up to snuff, though.

Links, please? (nm) by eatpraylove on 2014-12-08 18:19:00 UTC Reply

They're linked on the wiki, but OK by firemagic on 2014-12-09 04:28:00 UTC Reply

Lana and Narav: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ELPJWR8MnxfIKn7d6dt-34ewELL2MJc0Wbaxo3V0jY/edit?usp=driveweb

Team CAF: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LV2HV_lqFIegvnWRQn4Z3arKVWMlg-njyLnb2O1S8d4/edit

I should probably rewrite a few bits in the latter, especially Amara's explanation of her backstory, but by and large I'm still happy with how these two turned out.

I'm all for it. by KittyEden on 2014-12-06 23:49:00 UTC Reply

As soon as I get Permission (doesn't look like soon, though...) I'll get in on it.
A quick question. by Storme Hawk on 2014-12-06 19:55:00 UTC Reply

Does it have to be FF.net?

By that I mean does the 'Welcome' series have to be posted to the Pit, I understand its the largest fan fiction website out there and stuff, but do we necessarily want to put the PPC out there on it in a more visible way. I know there aren't exactly that many websites out there that allow fan fiction, but maybe we could trial run this on a slightly smaller website (the one that springs to mind as I write this is AO3), that may be slightly more lax in terms of rules (meaning that we don't have to worry about format or where it was posted before), and perhaps have a better and more fair admin team that will accommodate something like this a lot more easily than the admins at FF.net could.

It's just a thought that I had and wondered if there was anything in it that could help with the general idea.

Storme Hawk

Well, personally, yes, I do. ;) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 11:39:00 UTC Reply

But I understand what you're saying. The thing is... well, two things:

1/ The whole purpose of this is to make the PPC more visible. Historically - not recently, but historically - our membership was all from FF.net. I was. My wife was. Uh, Jay and Acacia were. It's where the PPC started out - and we get good people through there. Even in Days of Yore, though, what we never did get was a flurry of flamers coming from there to here. It just didn't happen.

2/ I think you've got the FF.net/AO3 distinction backwards. Fanfic.net is pretty lax about its rules, and very lax about enforcing them. AO3 seems more organised - which, if they decide PPC stories are against their TOS, is a bad thing. And they potentially could: they have a section about 'plagiarism', which we don't seem to fit, but also a section on 'harassment' which starts as follows:

Harassment is any behavior that produces a generally hostile environment for its target. This includes activities such as bullying and hazing by groups of people as well as personal attacks by individuals.

Which could easily be construed to include the PPC, particularly since it does not say it only covers personal attacks. Sustained criticism of your work could very well count as a 'hostile environment'.

Unfortunately, AO3 don't specifically mention MSTs in their description; does anyone know whether they allow them? In fact, does anyone know if they allow PPC stories in general?

hS

...currently.... by JulyFlame on 2014-12-08 18:55:00 UTC Reply

And semi-hypocritically, the current fandom scene that is largely on AO3 is against even the term "Mary Sue" being used.

AO3 is fairly active right now but I wouldn't say that translates to more strict but I suspect the PPC would be largely unwelcome there by some louder voices who wouldn't be afraid of reporting missions.

I hope everyone else will pardon the hijack, but by son_of_heaven176 on 2014-12-07 15:55:00 UTC Reply

Storme Hawk, did you receive my reply to your email?

Yeah by Storme Hawk on 2014-12-07 20:35:00 UTC Reply

I'm sorry, I've been working on a reply to it, but I've got an assignment due tomorrow and I've discovered I've done a third of it wrong so I've been focusing on that over this weekend.

Oh. by son_of_heaven176 on 2014-12-07 21:22:00 UTC Reply

Of course, take all the time you need. Good luck on that assignment.

Sounds Good If... by sjosten on 2014-12-06 17:20:00 UTC Reply

I think it's a sound idea so long as we have some way to make sure any readers get to the wiki and/or here afterward. I'd hate if this led to people not knowing about, for example, the need to get Permission before writing their own missions.

Ooh, good point. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-06 20:27:00 UTC Reply

There should probably be something to the effect of "written and posted with permission from the PPC Posting Board" in the intro.

~Neshomeh

That is a good point. by Iximaz on 2014-12-06 22:35:00 UTC Reply

I already had to dissuade one person who said they now want to write their own missions. Whether or not they'll listen, on the other hand... Hopefully they'll come check out the Board instead like I suggested.

On the other hand, hS, that means your idea has already started showing results, so yay?

I think you're all bananas. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 09:24:00 UTC Reply

At no point in the history of the PPC have we requested that people add a disclaimer that their story was written with Permission; wherever that story was posted, we let the readers figure it out for themselves. The WPPC disclaimers already have clear directions to find the Wiki and the Board.

But... 'If this is indeed the will of the Community, then DOGA will see it done.' So the hatnote now reads:

The mission ‘A Very Awkward Exorcism’ was written by Sergio Turbo of the PPC. It is posted here by permission of the author, to serve as an introduction to the Protectors of the Plot Continuum. If you enjoy it, Agents Sergio and Nikki’s other missions can be found by searching Google for ‘Sergio Turbo PPC’. All PPC stories are written by permission of the PPC community, which can be sought on the PPC Posting Board.

Good? Bad? Eye-wateringly bad?

hS

Well, the OFUs had to credit Miss Cam. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-08 18:46:00 UTC Reply

I have credit to J&A and a note about permission on my website, and I'm pretty sure I've seen other people mention it, too. There is precedent for this sort of thing, even though we've never asked for it.

I think that line is good. {= )

~Neshomeh

So anyone want to donate a specific mission? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 09:14:00 UTC Reply

I think the only specific volunteering is Sergio's Mission 4... further to the discussion with doctorlit, I'm not posting anything under the WPPC banner yet - there's no actual rush, after all - but I will start collecting stories to put out.

To clarify a few points:

-Your mission doesn't have to be 'old', just 'preexisting'.
-It doesn't have to be your agents' first mission.
-You can put it up on FF.net yourself if you like! I'm basically offering SturmUndSquee for anyone who doesn't want to take the time/hassle of doing it themselves.

hS

Re: So anyone want to donate a specific mission? by firemagic on 2014-12-12 18:44:00 UTC Reply

I volunteer Wings and Water (a Lana and Narav mission) and A Different kind of Witch (Team CAF). Des and I are working on polishing Just Read The Instructions, so that might work as well. And I don't have opinions on the Ari/Tera missions, so I guess I might pick one of those... The Teen Titans sue, or that awful nanoha fic I did for their second mission.
I'll offer up some, I suppose. by Lily Winterwood on 2014-12-07 00:10:00 UTC Reply

I'm not particularly pleased with the ones I wrote in eighth grade, so none of the BSG or Narnia ones will work. I suppose The Other Watson works because it also involves some explanatory bits of the PPC since C and E are training an intern in it. However I'm also very proud of Time Will Tell since it retcons some Agent backgrounds and stuff and the Sue was TOS-calibre.

You can put it up under StormUndSquee, I'm fine with that.

How does this look? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 11:29:00 UTC Reply

WPPC: Agents Christianne & Eledhwen

I went for 'Time Will Tell' because... well... because I felt like it. ;) Er, because you said you're proud of it, basically, and if I tried to only take missions that explicitly explain things I'd have a hard time doing it.

As usual, any comments will be heeded.

hS

Suggested edits added. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-08 20:16:00 UTC Reply

I'd also suggest making the word "canon" lowercase throughout, but there could be an argument for it being an Important Word, so I didn't mark it anywhere.

~Neshomeh

Mostly accepted on sight. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 09:59:00 UTC Reply

I've left the word-choice ones for Lily to decide on. The one I've rejected throughout is your lowercasing of Remote Activator - I see this word in the same class as Canon Analysis Device, so it should retain its capitals. Obviously if Lily disagrees, I'll change it.

hS

I've seen it both capitalized and not. by Iximaz on 2014-12-09 13:00:00 UTC Reply

But the Wiki shows it as lowercase, so I don't capitalize it in my missions...

That's because Neshomeh's formatting the Wiki. ;) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 13:20:00 UTC Reply

She has very strong opinions on capitalisation and punctuation, and textbooks to back them up. Though - and dare I say it? - she sometimes doesn't take cross-Atlantic language variance into account. Hyphens/dashes/whateveryoucallthem spring to mind...

hS

Oh, and... by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 15:26:00 UTC Reply

I follow TOS in the matter of whether or not to capitalize "remote activator." It's inconsistent, but by my count, it's uncapitalized a fair sight more than it's capitalized, so I figure that was the intent. Check it out on Miss Cam's site.

~Neshomeh

Debatable. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 15:43:00 UTC Reply

I'd be more inclined to the opposing view, since if you're feeling lazy, you would decapitalise (as many internet folks do everywhere), but it's hard to imagine what would make you randomly capitalise. Though actually, I suspect it's a case of Jay and Acacia having different writing styles, and not bothering to harmonise them.

Regardless, I think can all agree on a compromise of 'rem0te—Activat0r'. Or we can just agree that a story should be internally consistent, but need not consist with the rest of the corpus. ^_~

(... what do you mean, 'consist' can't be used that way?)

hS

Randomly capitalizing by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 16:10:00 UTC Reply

It does happen... but yeah, probably not the case here. I agree it's most likely a difference in writing styles, and I went with what's most prevalent.

You could also ask whether "Remote Activator" is the proper name of the thing, or is it just what it's called. Is it Kleenex, or is it tissue? I'm more inclined to think it's tissue, the remote that activates a portal being akin to the remote that controls your TV. There is an argument for it being Kleenex, too, but in that case you'd have to suppose that Makes-Things is horribly uncreative. I prefer to imagine he's got a patent form somewhere with some suitably long-winded technobabble name on it. {= )

~Neshomeh

I'd always thought it was Remote Activator and portal thingy by Lily Winterwood on 2014-12-14 20:01:00 UTC Reply

But that's just my personal choice.
Possibly, but... by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 16:20:00 UTC Reply

... very few of the traditional PPC devices have fancy names. Those only came in with stuff that's acknowledged to be new (eg, the DORKS). I mean, come on, we have the Whatsit, for crying out loud!

My theory is that, whatever Makes-Things may have named them, the Flowers who trained the first batches of agents just used descriptions as proper nouns. Since that's how they name themselves, it's not too strange an idea. And, come on, they named their building Headquarters, their organisation the Organisation, their city the City... they're not too good at names. And so they passed them onto the agents while M-T was cowering under a desk somewhere.

Or there's another alternative - but that will have to wait for tomorrow's plug. Spoi~lers...

hS

Actually... by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 18:12:00 UTC Reply

"The whatsit" is just what the people who trained Agent Meg called the Anachronistic Biochemical Substance Eliminator.^[1] Perhaps not the best example. {= )

As for the Flowers and their naming conventions, that's fine and dandy if you take their version of things to be the truth, but they're notoriously shifty about it, aren't they? Guess I'll have to wait and see if this comes up in your plug, or if it's something else. *g*

Come to think of it, the general trend is for very well-known proper nouns to become generic with use, as in "hoovering," "band-aid," or "the internet," so even if the Flowers did establish "Remote Activator" as a proper noun back in the day, it follows that it would get downgraded to a generic as it became more and more widespread and commonplace. Though, if I were seriously making that argument I'd have to come up with a reason the same thing didn't happen to the Analysis Devices, too. ... Maybe they just sound more official? *shrug*

~Neshomeh

1. "Sleepover!!! - A Girl Called Bob" by Meg Thornton

I think it's the other way round. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-10 10:13:00 UTC Reply

Makes-Things uses 'the Whatsit' as a proper noun:

"Come back. We still need a whatsit and all the rest of the stuff, you know that," said Acacia.

"A whatsit?" Jay wondered.

"It's this thingy, you use it if the characters have eaten anything in another continuum they might not be able to handle."

"Yes. The Whatsit." Makes-Things dug in his toolbox. "Here's one... shouldn't you be on your way?"

So it looks like the process went like this:

-Makes-Things invents a device for removing food from characters' stomachs. He names it the Anachronistic Biochemical Substance Eliminator.

-The Flowers stare in bafflement at the long name, and decide to term it the Whatsit (because... I dunno, 'What Is It?' is the reaction the characters' innards have to the food?). Alternately, Makes-Things tries to explain the name, fails, and coins 'the Whatsit' himself.

-Agent trainers introduce their trainees to it as 'the Whatsit', and the name passes into common - capitalised - use.

-Due to 'whatsit' being a generic filler word, many agents use it uncapitalised. Makes-Things is not among them.

hS

You can say it, but you'd be wrong. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 15:18:00 UTC Reply

Or, at least, if I'm not taking some regional thing into account, it's only because I don't know about it. As far as hyphens vs. dashes, people online have several different ways of substituting for dashes using hyphens, and "space hyphen space" is one of 'em. If you properly want "space en-dash space" rather than an em-dash, that's fine by me, but it's a little hard to tell just by looking. Since you pointed it out to me, I've stuck with "space en-dash space" for your pages. Also, I added a note about it in the editing help page just a couple days ago while I was making updates regarding the new VisualEditor, so there. {; P

~Neshomeh

Dashed dashes. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 15:39:00 UTC Reply

Wikipedia (The Source Of All Knowledge) highlights that space-endash-space is (one of the) UK convention(s), but you have previously been vehement that only em-dashes will do. Since I'm of the opinion that punctuation being joined to separate words on both sides is confusing and ugly, I've always been opposed to that. ;)

As for the difference between en-dashes and hyphens - if you can't tell them apart visually... why does it matter which you use? Particularly since there is no simple way to write either type of dash, while the hyphen has two whole keys to itself.

hS

I... can tell them apart, actually. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 15:58:00 UTC Reply

Not in all fonts, but yer bog-standard Times New Roman makes them fairly distinct. To illustrate:

- – —

The hyphen is very tiny and set a bit lower than the en-dash, which is longer, and the em-dash, which is twice as long as the en-dash.

And, again, I was vehement 'cause I didn't know any better. I don't always check Wikipedia when I have a stack of writing textbooks sitting next to me. You may commence your shocked gasping now. {; P

~Neshomeh

How did you make that middle kind? by doctorlit on 2014-12-10 07:37:00 UTC Reply

I have a key for this: -

And I know how to make — out of & mdash ;

But what's the source of that in between kind?

Disregard that, I'm dumb. by doctorlit on 2014-12-10 07:39:00 UTC Reply

I'm working off my laptop, which has no minus key. And somehow, I forgot the existence of the minus symbol, despite having a plus symbol right here in front of me.

Not a minus. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-10 15:18:00 UTC Reply

It's an en-dash, made like this: –

My minus key makes something that looks exactly like a hyphen. Here they are, side by side: - - (minus) (hyphen)

There is code for a minus symbol, though, which produces something that looks almost exactly like an en-dash, but set a little higher: − – (minus) (en-dash) The minus code is −

For more HTML character fun, check this out. {= )

~Neshomeh

[Gasps in shock] Whaaaaaaat?! (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 15:59:00 UTC Reply

Also before I utterly forget: by Lily Winterwood on 2014-12-07 00:11:00 UTC Reply

Any chance we're still working on Anneliese? I guess your absence in the doc lately has been because of Driftwood, so I'm just kinda checking in. Mostly because I want to get something written before the motivation goes again.

[Salutes badly] On it. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 10:57:00 UTC Reply

I've got so many plates spinning in the air that it's hard to keep track of them all... I'll be sure to get something written today.

hS

I wouldn't mind offering one of my own up. by JulyFlame on 2014-12-06 07:23:00 UTC Reply

One of my early ones should fair fit what you're looking forward.

I know what you're doing. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 10:32:00 UTC Reply

Yes, all of you - I see right through you! You're all just trying to get me to read your missions! 'Oh, you can have any of mine - just choose the one that works best.' Oh, you think you have me fooled, but in fact, it is you you have fooled!

Or something. A-hem. Anyway. Got one in mind?

hS

*stamps foot* I thought we had something special! by JulyFlame on 2014-12-08 18:59:00 UTC Reply

I was under the distinct impression you had read mine, once upon a time!

As old as it is- seven years, good lord- my first mission, I think.

As for a link, maybe there will be a Christmas Miracle.
OBJECTION! by Sergio Turbo on 2014-12-08 12:30:00 UTC Reply

You had already read and commented my mission on the Board when I released it! So what you are saying is not possible!

... Ahem, enough with the Phoenix Wright imitiations. I didn't even play the games...

OVERRULED! by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 13:11:00 UTC Reply

^_^

hS

Boo! *throws tomato* by Iximaz on 2014-12-08 16:16:00 UTC Reply

Oh, who am I kidding? I laughed.

And bah, I don't need to try and get you to read my missions. You've commented on all four so far! So nyah.
*snerk* Very nice. ^. ^ (nm) by Neshomeh on 2014-12-08 15:26:00 UTC Reply

You know what?... by SkarmorySilver on 2014-12-05 17:55:00 UTC Reply

I would gladly volunteer my first ever mission and the magnum opus of my PPC writing, Connecting The Dots, because it works well on its own and isn't Bleepfic territory despite the violence near the end.

I'm a bit worried about the length, though - it's 87 pages long, excluding my commentary, and I don't know if FFN would be able to fit it all without having to split it up like the GDocs version.

Unfortunately there's a different problem with that. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 18:22:00 UTC Reply

Namely, FF.net has a ban on script format. Whether your mission technically qualifies is an open question; whether someone could say it does isn't, alas.

That said, if you want to open your own disposable account to post it, I'd be interested to see if it stays up. ;) You could easily chapter it to keep the multiple parts separate.

hS

On reflection... by Neshomeh on 2014-12-05 16:50:00 UTC Reply

I think Nume and Ilraen's third mission, "Harry Potter and the Dragonriders of Pern," is probably best for this. It's their first actual crossover, it stands on its own better than their later missions, and while it's on the dramatic side, it's not Bleepfic. The author is still on fanfic.net, but the fic isn't, and her most recent update was back in 2011, so she might not notice or care.

I'm worried that Ilraen's thought-speak brackets won't work on the Pit, so let me know if you need a substitution. Curly brackets, maybe?

~Neshomeh, hoping to attract Pern fans.

How does this look? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 10:55:00 UTC Reply

WPPC: Agents Sumernumerary & Ilraen

I'm putting it in Pern because, well, you said you wanted Pern fans. ;) Feel free to write a different summary. Also, I can change the title to add Jenni as well if you like. And, as usual, any changes.

I've found at least one Animorphs fic with pointy brackets, so it will hopefully work. If not, I'll edit on the fly.

hS

Comments in the doc. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-08 17:33:00 UTC Reply

I'll have to think about the summary, but nothing springs immediately to mind. I'll get back to you.

And, hm... while it is set mostly in Pernverse, it's definitely a crossover, and I like Potter fans, too. It's probably best to list it for what it is. {= )

~Neshomeh

Yeah, but crossovers don't get read. :( by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 15:46:00 UTC Reply

Well, it's up to you.

Random thread derail: have you seen The (first) Official PPC Songbook before? Thought it might be relevant to your interests.

Also I note it's nearly Christmas and we haven't had a filking game yet...

hS

They don't? by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 16:26:00 UTC Reply

... Eh, you're probably right. That's a shame. Well, again, it is mostly set in Pern. Pern category works.

No, I hadn't seen that! It was on Ella's old site, I think, but most of the songs were missing. Yay for the Pit! ^_^

As for the filking game, I'm planning to start it on the 14th. I've wanted to start it on the First Day of Christmas (assuming the 25th is the twelfth day... it is, right?) and this year I finally remembered. Also, this gives me time to update the Songbook section of my site to CSS. I put it off because a) it's a pain in the butt to update all that, and b) I wanted give it a nice wintery theme, but that'll have to wait, since I haven't come up with a design yet.

~Neshomeh

I see 'Old Catholic Trivia' isn't one of your fandoms. ^_~ by Huinesoron on 2014-12-09 16:37:00 UTC Reply

I believe the Twelve Days of Christmas start on the 25th, and end on Epiphany - aka Twelfth Night, AKA the commemoration of the Adoration of the Magi, AKA January 6th. Though I would not be surprised if there were numerous independent traditions based on the song which doled out presents from the 14th to the 25th.

Still, it's a good idea, even if technically incorrect.

Also: there are two independently-uploaded PPC filks here and here. They're from 2010, though, so you may well have them.

hS

Not trivia, thank you very much. :P (nm) by JulyFlame on 2014-12-10 03:43:00 UTC Reply

Not exclusively Catholic, either... by Huinesoron on 2014-12-10 08:15:00 UTC Reply

... but subject lines have too short a letter count. I wanted that phrase to start with 'Archaic Christian...' but it was impossible.

Since you brought it up, I'm curious - while I'm sure Epiphany is celebrated in the usual style (either church or feast depending on your preferences ^_~), is there any celebration/whatever of the Twelve Days? In fact, is there any meaning to them, or are they just 'the days that happen to fall between Christmas and Epiphany'?

hS

Heh, not so much. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-09 17:50:00 UTC Reply

Good to know what I'm corrupting to my own ends, though.

Yep, I've got those two already, but thanks.

~Neshomeh

That was the first I read and had no problem following it. (nm) by Iximaz on 2014-12-05 17:47:00 UTC Reply

I would like to voluenteer by EileenAlphabet on 2014-12-05 14:47:00 UTC Reply

Smells of Rose, with Saxo and James. http://rc170.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/smells-of-rose-aka-the-enemy-of-my-enemy/
It has some references to previous missions, but it should work as a self-contained story. Also, it's one of my shorter missions, which might be good for this specific purpose.

How does this look? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-06 07:00:00 UTC Reply

WPPC: Agents Saxo and James

It seems to work perfectly well as a self-contained story to me. As with Sergio and Iximaz, I've left it open for comments, so anything you think needs changing, just note it.

hS

I've added some suggested edits. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-07 16:33:00 UTC Reply

Mostly to do with commas. I started reading just for the heck of it, considered leaving well enough alone, but then decided to go ahead, since these stories are going out into the world to attract potential new members and all. {= )

No promises that I'll do the rest, but I might if I have the time.

~Neshomeh

Mostly accepted as self-evident. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-08 09:44:00 UTC Reply

(In a good way!)

I've rejected a couple that were more author word-choice, and left the capitalisation of 'Out of Character' up to EileenAlphabet.

hS

Looks very good by EileenAlphabet on 2014-12-07 11:31:00 UTC Reply

I've added two notes having to do with classification and attributing notes to the correct person. Probably the librarian in me. ^^

Okay, volunteering mine! by Iximaz on 2014-12-05 11:56:00 UTC Reply

I'll still post on my old account, but having missions in more places can't hurt.

Which of your missions would you like to volunteer? (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 14:15:00 UTC Reply

The second one. by Iximaz on 2014-12-05 15:42:00 UTC Reply

'Lord Potter and the Barking Owl' to be specific. It's better than my first, I think, and it's not a relatively obscure fandom like Ranger's Apprentice.

But feel free to use any of them if you need material!

How does this look? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-06 06:44:00 UTC Reply

WPPC: Agents Rina & Randa

As with Sergio, I've put it up on GDrive and left it open for comments; anything you think needs changing, comment and I'll do so. (In particular, if you can think of a better brief summary...)

hS

Looks good. by Iximaz on 2014-12-06 16:28:00 UTC Reply

Though it seems a bit silly to put the foul language warnings at the bottom. You can delete that, I guess.

But I laughed at the summary, so... *shrug* maybe I just have low standards, but I liked it.

I'm clearly already the minority. by doctorlit on 2014-12-05 04:53:00 UTC Reply

But I'm going to give my opinion anyway.

I really don't want us to become easier to find. You mentioned trolls and flamers, but that isn't what worries me. I'm worried by the prospect of enough people making complaints about this new swath of PPC stories getting posted on the Pit, that some enterprising admin will get it in their head to finish the work started against Otik and Renn all those years ago and delete every PPC thing still surviving on the Pit, before I have the chance to archive it.

As we are now, we're safely under the radar. I'd prefer to stay there. That's just how I feel, and I wanted to share my thoughts.

This is a living community, not a museum exhibit. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-12-06 00:20:00 UTC Reply

I still don't want to lose the museum. (nm) by doctorlit on 2014-12-06 01:13:00 UTC Reply

You wouldn't. by Ekyl on 2014-12-06 01:58:00 UTC Reply

"Let's put the entire PPC in a glass bottle and keep the doors as closed as possible" just isn't a healthy or reasonable outlook to have. Especially when the main argument is "but my archive!"

No offence, since on thinking about this it might come off a bit harsh and I'm not trying to be. But I really feel this mega-isolationist stance isn't warranted.

I don't think you understand. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-06 02:41:00 UTC Reply

Doclit wasn't saying "Shut the doors FOREVAH," he was saying "Hey, if we draw a bunch of attention to the PPC, don't we run the risk of fanfiction.net admins taking notice and deleting everything like they tried to do back in the day?" In which case, yeah, we would lose a big part of the museum. This is not an unreasonable concern, which is why hS decided to hold off posting stuff until we can save the spin-offs still on the Pit.

~Neshomeh

Fair, but not the only thing I was addressing. by Ekyl on 2014-12-06 03:05:00 UTC Reply

Doc has noted his preference for keeping us as out of the eye of anywhere else as possible before, such as here: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=259289 (I forgot how to link on yourwebapps :( )

"I'm not worried what other people might think of us, I'm worried that they might think of us at all."

Like I said, about halfway through I started worrying that it sounded like I was unfairly taking him to task, which is why I tried to stress that I'm not personally going after him here. It's just that "let's stay totally isolationist" seems to be his recurring stance and he tends to jump to the absolute worst case as if it's a given, and I don't feel that is a healthy attitude to take to the PPC. We can't put the entire community into a bottle and never try to expand just because bad things might happen, and I'll admit that I think I misunderstood part of his original post, which is why I made that "museum exhibit" comment. "Before I have the chance to archive it" read to me as "what matters is my archive" which was completely unfair, and I apologise for that.

You're correct that that is my general stance. by doctorlit on 2014-12-06 04:43:00 UTC Reply

And I only bring it up when it's relevant to the conversation. If no one else in the PPC agrees with me, that's fine, and I'll go with the group decision. But I'm still entitled to share my side of any discussion. That's all I wanted to do here, or in the other discussion you linked.

And honestly, yes: I am very protective of "the archive" as a concept, for the same reason I live in almost constant fear of a fire wiping out the contents of my bookshelves. They aren't just stories, they're my memories, my adventures, part of my life. I don't want to lose them, because I might want to read them again decades from now, and remember. The difference there is that, while the published books in my house have numerous copies throughout the world, fanfiction only exists online, and once it disappears, if some archive didn't pick it up (and thank Gan for them when they do!), they really are gone for good. I'm still kicking myself for not thinking about starting an archive until after Pigeon Army's spin-off was deleted, because that one doesn't look like it's coming back.

I feel like I've gone on an overly poetic tangent. I'm just trying to say that the PPC canon is something I very much care about, and I feel protective of it. Again, I'll speak my mind, but I won't try to shout down the entire community, if it reaches a collective decision.

I honestly think you should relax and give things a chance. by Ekyl on 2014-12-06 05:02:00 UTC Reply

To carry on with the bookshelves comparison, not everyone who would learn your books exist would want to burn them. If you were a librarian, would you bar the doors except to those you knew personally, because everyone else is guilty until proven innocent of wanting to destroy it all? The rest of the internet aren't necessarily barbarians at the gates, and while I agree that holding fire on this project until we've made sure the remaining old stuff is safe from potential backlash is the way to go, I do think you're being a little (for lack of a better word, and I don't mean it as an insult) paranoid.

Keep in mind too that "PPC canon" is a) a veritable Gordian Knot at times, b) reasonably well documented (by which I don't mean "oh, we've done all the work already" - I mean "we've done a good job so far of making sure the important stuff is preserved) and c) not something you are solely responsible for, given others are curating it as well and everyone doing it is doing a fine job. And remember, you're not exactly guarding the Holy Grail from the heathen hordes here. I guess where I'm coming from is I don't think looking at people Not From Here as inherent threats/enemies is a good view to take, especially on something like the PPC - I respect that you're not shouting people down, and I'm not trying to shout you down, I'm just noting why I respectfully disagree and think you should consider being a little more open to the whole idea. I mean, really, worst case scenario a few flames get sent our way and we handle it like we've handled trolls, flamers, etc. in the past.

That's certainly a valid concern. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 09:04:00 UTC Reply

(Though I'm still not comfortable about you using 'Renn', for the record - her name on the Board was 'Acacia', and there's every reason to believe the one 'Renn' was a slip that introduced her real name; throwing people's real names around on the internet without their permission isn't something I'd do, personally)

Ehm, anyway. I can certainly see your concern, but I'm still worried about the way being 'safely under the radar' is slowly draining our membership.

So how's about a compromise: I've got lots of 'free' time. If you've got a list of PPC stories on FF.net, I can blitz through it and copy the lot of them. Heck, even if you haven't, I can go at it - the Wiki should help out there. Then, once we've got the old stuff backed up, we can roll out the new.

(Though honestly, 'enterprising admin'? On Fanfiction.net? Nah. More likely is some vengeful flamer goes after them all and starts mass-sending abuse reports)

hS

Oh. Um. by doctorlit on 2014-12-05 15:35:00 UTC Reply

I'm really sorry about Acacia's name; I honestly had no idea that was the real one. I honestly thought that was just another internet name, because I always saw it paired with Otik, which very clearly is not Jay's real name. So I'm very, very sorry, and I say thankya for correcting me. I'll make sure not to do that again. goes to change info in the archive

Um. Is it really draining our membership? I mean, we may not be matching our top membership record, we may even be at our low membership record, but fifty people is still quite a lot of minds. I'm not sure we could even fit the whole current set of active users in my condo and still have room to walk around each other! And the number could always fluctuate up again in the future.

That would be fantastic! The Pit was my next priority after getting all the Webs/Freewebs sites archived, but my free time is in high demand. I don't have any special list; I've just been using the Complete List of PPC Fiction on the Wiki and mousing down the names to look at the URLs. (I've also found one or two unlisted ones by playing with the search function on the Pit; perhaps you can get more creative with it than I could?)

Well, there's been at least one admin that once attempted to do their job. I remember a couple of years ago, I checked through the links on our unclaimed badfic list, and discovered that a huge number of the really grody, yucky, why-did-this-need-to-be-written stories on the Pit had gotten axed. I guess I got it in my mind that things were getting more competent around there, but I suppose one data point isn't enough to assume that . . .

Well, thanks for your response, and your offer to help!

I've... never seen it used like that? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-10 09:32:00 UTC Reply

I think the only person I've seen using 'Otik & Renn' is you; the only other place I've seen it is that one typo in a mission. I happen to know that Acacia went by Acacia on the Board (and we have all of one of her threads archived: it was titled 'Find me a LOGICAL description somewhere!', and judging by Salad's reply of 'Well, actually, I've drawn a picture on how to identify MS', it was part of the quest that continues to this day - a firm definition of the term 'Mary-Sue').

Archiving of FF.n is ongoing; I'm shoving all chapters and reviews into a big folder with no regard for formatting. Since I'm using mobile mode to do it, it's cutting out website addresses, but I figure we can cope.

hS

Looks like you're right. by doctorlit on 2014-12-10 18:02:00 UTC Reply

I could have sworn some of the older spin-offs credited them that way, too, but I can't find any now. Again, I'm sorry, and I'll correct all my usages of it that are in editable places.

I haven't been dealing with formatting or, like, pictures, myself. I've just been copying all the text and dropping it into big Word documents. I don't have that computer on right now, but I think the longest one I have so far is either Alec's journal or the "Allison repartnered with Tasmin" section of IndeMaat's spin-off.

Speaking of IndeMaat, I did get in contact with her. She said she'll upload the missing mission when she reaches her next weekend.

List by Neshomeh on 2014-12-05 15:32:00 UTC Reply

I don't have a full one for what's on ff.net, but to make your life easier, here's what I've already saved of what's still up:

* "The Last Word Is Always Goodbye" - Amy and Brent
* "New Protectors of the Plot Continuum" - Anne and Kate
* "Special Sue Unit" - Cass and Skuld
* "Department for Elf Protection" - Elanor and Megan
* "A Time to Kill and a Time to Sigh" - Jaster and Threnody
* "Clan of the Cactus" - Jaz and Tick
* "The New Kids" - Kage and Sakira
* "Troll Division" - Marokee, Saphie, and Leelee
* "Tales from Despatch" - Meg and Will
* "The JAAKSONS" - Nenya and Rosie
* "The Floater" - NytBloomer

You'll turn up these and more by doing story searches for "PPC" and "Protectors of the Plot Continuum." (And BTW, you/other archivists might want to hit FictionPress, too—I know Oracle at least has some stuff on there.) Some of these I grabbed from other sites, so a few are already on The Lost Tales.

Of course, more than one backup is always a good idea if you're so inclined. {= )

~Neshomeh

And I'm doing IndeMaat right now, so don't worry about that. (nm by doctorlit on 2014-12-05 18:03:00 UTC Reply

Oh, that's good. by Neshomeh on 2014-12-05 18:47:00 UTC Reply

I'm very happy to let her massive number of missions scattered across multiple websites be your headache. ^_~

Seriously, cheers for taking that on. Her stuff is way low on my priorities list.

~Neshomeh

It's not that bad. by doctorlit on 2014-12-05 21:02:00 UTC Reply

A year or so ago, I had randomly gotten it in my head to put all her links in order on the wiki, so it's going by fairly quickly now. IndeMaat's LiveJournal and her site proper gave different orders, but I think I went with the official site's order, just 'cause. The one tricky thing is that some versions have different combinations and different orders of author note, so in some cases, I have to compare each posting of each mission to get each version. But the missions themselves have been constant, as far as I can tell. I've also encountered one mission so far that's no longer posted anywhere but once I know for sure how many are missing, I'll email her and ask if she has any backed up.

So, uh, thanks, past!doctorlit, for organizing those for me.

An interesting notion. by PoorCynic on 2014-12-05 04:50:00 UTC Reply

I think I have a couple of missions that could work for something like this. I am in the process of rewriting a bunch of my stuff, however, so it might not be something I pursue right away.
You can take mine. by Sergio Turbo on 2014-12-04 23:20:00 UTC Reply

I'd leave the first two out, though - I'm planning to re-write them once I'm over with Blank Sprite as their quality is currently well under my standard.

I thnk the fourth would be a good one if you want to have one example of Agent training, by the way.

Okay; how does this look? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 14:32:00 UTC Reply

WPPC: Agents Sergio and Nikki

That's obviously a GDrive version, which will be transferred intact to FF.net when the time comes. I've left it open for comments; if I've mucked anything up during transfer, or if you see anything you'd like to change (either in your mission or in my added notes at top and bottom), feel free to comment them up.

hS

Suggested edits added. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2014-12-10 18:29:00 UTC Reply
Looks good. by Sergio Turbo on 2014-12-05 22:36:00 UTC Reply

I left just a little nitpick on one of the notes, the rest is perfectly fine.

P.S. by Sergio Turbo on 2014-12-04 23:22:00 UTC Reply

I think the way I called them may be confusing. The ones to leave out are Mission 1 and Mission 2, while the suggested one is Mission 4.

You know, I have a Mission 0 and might end up writing Mission Something Point Something in the future...

Huh. by Cassie on 2014-12-04 20:31:00 UTC Reply

Well, you're welcome to use mine, of course - I'm quite happy for people to see what I was like when I began writing missions. :P
I'd say go ahead and use mine... by Neshomeh on 2014-12-04 18:04:00 UTC Reply

But both my spin-offs start with recruitment stories, so I'm not sure they'd work as intended. It's possible that people could jump right into my agents' first missions without reading the previous material, but I'm not the best judge of that. What do you think?

~Neshomeh

I wasn't thinking just first missions. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 18:56:00 UTC Reply

Obviously everyone has missions which draw heavily on their predecessors - things like Lou's big reveal, or Dafydd's second teamup with Vemi - but equally, I think most teams have the 'monster of the week' type of missions. Yes, they don't serve as a technical intro to the characters - but they still work fine as a standalone. Of Wolves fits that description, for instance.

hS

Once I've completed some missions by Storme Hawk on 2014-12-04 16:11:00 UTC Reply

(because somehow I still haven't finished one yet)
I'd be happy to take part in doing this. I've been thinking of creating a new FF.net account anyway because there are a couple of fanfic ideas I've got in my head atm that I wouldn't mind writing down.
I had myself a pretty decent fanbase as a Suethor. by Iximaz on 2014-12-04 15:34:00 UTC Reply

I'd probably get someone's attention if I posted my missions on my old account. I still get PMs asking me to continue writing even though I said I'm done.

I like that idea! by Asbestoast on 2014-12-04 21:08:00 UTC Reply

Using the old Suethor account for good instead of Sue, I like that! If you've ever PPCed one of your own old Sue stories, I would think that would be the one to post.

I haven't yet, but I will eventually. by Iximaz on 2014-12-04 23:58:00 UTC Reply

It was Bad. With a capital B.

Remus got into a fistfight with Sirius. In first year. Over the Sue.

It's definitely gonna be sporked someday.

I'd love to do this, but... by DawnFire on 2014-12-04 15:24:00 UTC Reply

...most of my finished and posted missions are either interludes, for the Blackout, or April Fool's Day things. I have one that I wrote a huge chunk on for NaNoWriMo, which I'm happy to contribute once it's finished, but apart from that, everything is either not a mission, not a serious mission, or simply not posted.

So I guess now the main questions are as follows:

1. Are you looking for anything other than straight missions? Would interludes/Ten Years Later stories/AFD 'joke' missions/an excerpt of a Blackout Interlude also be acceptable/useful?

2. Until when are you accepting contributions to this? Is it to be an ongoing thing, or just during a specific time frame?

3. Assuming an author has written different missions with different combinations of characters (take you, for example, with missions for Dafydd and also missions for Agent hS), would you want them submitting only one mission or multiple ones, with the caveat that no one agent team is featured more than once?

4. Not exactly a question per se, but I'm assuming it would be good if this series ended up featuring many different departments? Something featuring the Flowers could also be good...

I think that's everything for now, so I'll end this here and get ready for class. I would like to add, though, that I think this is an absolutely brilliant idea.

~DF

Answers! by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 15:47:00 UTC Reply

1/ Most of those probably wouldn't work, because they're not fanfic of something with an FF.net section. The AFD joke mission would, potentially; bits of a Blackout Interlude would depend. For instance, Cyba's Knightmare interlude would work fine; Lily's Generic Surface probably wouldn't, since the Doctor Who elements are fairly minor.

2/ I figured ongoing. And in case it wasn't clear, I'm not claiming a monopoly - anyone is absolutely welcome to stick up their own disposable account and post under the WPPC banner.

3/ Multiple is absolutely fine; I just don't want people using WPPC to post their entire back-catalogue. Though, as with Driftwood, people posting their entire back-catalogue as their own story is absolutely fine by me.

4/ Different departments, different fandoms - all sorts of differents. And that's not an answer, but it wasn't a question anyway. ^_~

hS

Not my old missions, but perhaps a newer one? (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-12-04 14:30:00 UTC Reply

"Old" as in "not written specially for it". by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 14:48:00 UTC Reply

If you want to write new missions and post them on FF.net, feel free, but it rather brakes the 'archives' theme. ;)

hS

I'd like to contribute but my old missions are awful. :P by Ekyl on 2014-12-04 15:03:00 UTC Reply

Like, seriously, I can't stand to read those things and I'm rebooting an entire spinoff because it was terrible. But yeah, I was thinking less "write something specially for this" and more "I'm writing some newer stuff, might contribute some of it when done."

Then sure. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 15:06:00 UTC Reply

Or you can just do what I'm doing with Driftwood and dual-post it to an FF.net disposable account and your primary archive. Either works.

hS

Cool idea! by eatpraylove on 2014-12-04 14:29:00 UTC Reply

I would totally volunteer for this series if I were an oldbie.
I like the idea a lot by EileenAlphabet on 2014-12-04 13:58:00 UTC Reply

But doesn't FF.net have some sort of rule against putting up works based on other users' works? Or was there another reason why The Original Series was kicked off?

FF.net is bad at rules. XD by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 14:11:00 UTC Reply

The list of 'Entries not allowed' in the Content Guidelines includes this:

3. MST: comments inserted in between the flow of a copied story.

That's basically the only rule-based excuse for kicking off PPC stories, and I honestly don't think it applies as stated, but... well, this is the Pit of Voles. As far as anyone's ever been able to determine, the banning process goes like this:

-You post a story.
-Someone who doesn't like it submits an abuse report.
-EITHER the admins roll a dice to decide whether to delete the story, OR they use a dartboard, OR they generate a random number.

There's also a possibility that multiple reports get attention paid faster. But... yeah. It's unfathomable. I will say that at least one person sent an abuse report for Driftwood (and kindly PM'd me to let me know), which hasn't led to anything.

Bottom line: if enough people complain/the dice are against us, a story might get booted. Potentially, the account might be blocked along with it. That's why Driftwood isn't under either of my real accounts, and why I specifically suggested using disposables for WPPC.

hS

Huh by EileenAlphabet on 2014-12-05 14:41:00 UTC Reply

Seems rather unfair to boot TOS because of that rule. As I remember they had very few direct quotes. There was certainly no way to confuse them with MSTs.