Re: Eh, I'm not convinced.

Subject: Re: Eh, I'm not convinced.
Author: Mikelus
Posted on: 2014-12-04 15:50:00 UTC

True, the lightsaber can cut t any speed, but the concept of power attacks and that style of melee isn't based around speed to aid in cutting. A power attack is meant to hit the opponent's blade, so they can shatter the defense. Think Episode 6, when Luke repeatedly beats Vader's defense down with two-handed strikes.

And this point of the long blade, that I was making earlier, is that the length makes it more difficult to maneuver, which in close combat could be a deadly issue. It that situation, rather than adding a catapult to a sniper, it's like adding a bayonet to a sniper so you can use it effectively at stabbing ranges.

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Star Wars: Episode VII trailer (spoilers) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-01 13:33:00 UTC Reply

Yes, another trailer discussion. We seem to be swimming in those recently! First was The Battle of the Five Armies, then Jurassic World, and now Star Wars. And, hey, by the way, both those previous threads are still on the front page if you feel like chiming in. ^_^

So: the trailer for Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens is out. A year in advance, so they weren't kidding when they called it a tease... sorry, I mean teaser.

And... well, on the one hand, I'm still mourning the death of the Expanded Universe. What, it's 30 years on and there's still X-Wings in common use? TIE fighters? By 30ABY we should be in the Galactic Alliance era, with the Incom T-65 X-wing basically obsolete, and the TIE/LN a hilariously outdated deathtrap. I mean, okay, they were still around, but they should be pretty rare.

And, yeah, big woo, back to Planet Dustbowl, because we're not tired of that place yet. And that astromech is hilariously useless - as is 'stick some parts on your lightsaber to chop your fingers off if your hand slips'.

But.

But but but.

X-wings! TIE fighters! The Falcoln! Outdoor environments not made out of pixels (seriously, I think the last time we saw a real tree in Star Wars was Endor)! Aerial acrobatics! X-wings in ground attack mode (seriously, you have no idea how cool I thought that shot was)! And, y'know - Star Wars!

They're not going to get me to buy the merchandise for the new continuity - which is a shame for them, since I own practically every book from the old EU. But they're also not going to be able to stop me seeing the film.

Here's hoping there's no replacement Jar Jar...

hS

Hope lost due to Disney and not regained due to trailer. (nm) by DemonFiren on 2014-12-01 22:23:00 UTC Reply

Care to expand on that? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-02 09:20:00 UTC Reply

I mean, Disney have done some pretty good stuff lately (and even a while before that). I wouldn't trust them to do a faithful adaptation of, like, anything, but this isn't an adaptation - it's a story set thirty years after the last events they're acknowledging to have happened.

And are you implying there was something about the trailer that made you despair, or just that it didn't show anything to specifically make you hope again?

hS

Eh. by Desdendelle on 2014-12-02 15:36:00 UTC Reply

On one hand, Disney chucked the baby with the water, so to speak, with their EU purge - there was some pretty horrible stuff there, but also some pretty good stuff.
On the other hand - ohmygodyesXWingsTIEFighterssocool.
On the other other hand - that lightsaber? Nope.avi. Just... no.

The laser longsword is fine. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-12-03 00:15:00 UTC Reply

Darth Maul had his bo staff... thing. Remember? by Iximaz on 2014-12-03 19:17:00 UTC Reply

So I'd say the hilt thing is okay.

Nonono by Desdendelle on 2014-12-03 21:45:00 UTC Reply

Maul's saberstaff still fits the aesthetic. That lightsaber with those two useless little blades serving as a hilt... doesn't.

Let Colbert enlighten you. by Ekyl on 2014-12-04 14:28:00 UTC Reply

http://www.themarysue.com/stephen-colbert-lightsaber-knowledge-boom/

Dang, you beat me to it. (nm) by Iximaz on 2014-12-04 15:31:00 UTC Reply

Fair enough. by Iximaz on 2014-12-03 22:02:00 UTC Reply

Rule of Cool, I guess... *sigh* I was about to say 'But if he blocks someone's attack, the hilt could slice... nevermind.' Though since a light saber is the only thing that can stop another light saber, I suppose it could still potentially have some function.

Well... by Darkotas on 2014-12-04 06:07:00 UTC Reply

While the best thing to use for blocking a lightsaber is another lightsaber, they aren't exactly common or easy to use. Cortosis blocks lightsabers or shuts them off on contact, and would have made much more sense to use than the weird lightsaber cross guard thing going on, especially since it would be less likely to slice your own head off in a saber lock. Whether cortosis even exists anymore since the EU was neutered is the question, though. Rule of Cool > combat pragmatism/usability.

Shall we take a look at it? by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 09:26:00 UTC Reply

Wikipedia (The Source Of All Knowledge) is rather vague on the purpose of a cross-guard, which is what this clearly is. The hilt article suggests at two:

-Protecting the hand from a blade 'deliberately slid down the length of the blade to cut off or injure the hand'.
-Preventing the hand from ' slipping up the blade when thrusting'.

How does the new saber do at this? It would work for the first instance, and is one of the few things that would - but you've already mentioned saber locks; I don't recall ever seeing lightsabers sliding along each other. It seems like the interaction between two blades causes a 'lock' that can't be broken by sliding - which means that purpose of a crossguard is void. And anyway, if the enemy's blade slid down, it would hit the cross-emitter and cut it off, rather than jumping out to the blade.

As for the second purpose - well, it would stop your hand slipping onto the blade, but only by cutting it off before it got there. It looks like the crossguard emitters could be long enough that you only scorch your fingers, rather than severing them - but that still makes the crossblades a liability, not an asset. Just have the inert part!

Wikipedia also mentions that 'Only with the abandonment of the shield and then the armoured gauntlet did a full hand guard become necessary'. Since Jedi and Sith use neither of these, a full hand-guard would be appropriate - but this isn't one.

Okay, but lightsaber blades aren't just defensive - they can be used to attack, as well. Could you use the crossblades as a sort of Sith knuckleduster? Erm... I guess. But, again, this is a lightsaber - the blade is lethal from all angles. Why bother with a punch to make a small hole when you could turn your hand and stick a meter of coherent light through your opponent?

So, really, I can't find a practical use for the thing, which means it's just down to whether you think it looks cool. Which, personally, I don't. I love the actual effect used on the blades, but the cross-guard? Strikes me as silly, not cool. Of course, others may disagree, which is entirely your choice. ;)

(It may be significant to note that no-one in the history of weapons has thought sticking knives onto the hilt of their sword was a good idea)

hS

Cross-guard by Mikelus on 2014-12-04 15:16:00 UTC Reply

On a Jedi, everything about the cross-guard being a defensive idea makes sense. The Jedi like defensive fighting, so a defensive cross guard makes sense for them. However, it would make much more sense for the cross guard to be made out of Beskar or Cortosis, since those can take a lightsaber hit.

However, this is a Sith. And Sith are known for their aggressive offense. This gives the Sith another way to hit you, and pommel-strikes aren't exactly uncommon in Star Wars. Making the pummel strike more than a stunning attack would perfectly fit with the offensive combat style of the Sith.

On the other hand, this lightsaber is clearly a broadsword in size, as it's HUGE. This makes another possibility: The small blades are meant for very close in work. The biggest weakness of large weapons is that once an opponent gets too close, they are in your guard and there is nothing you can really do about it. The blade simply can't build up the momentum for power attacks or other Sith combat techniques. The small blades on the hilt would give the Sith the ability to engage at that distance. Not a perfect fix, but it is enough to partially negate the main weakness of massive blades.

Eh, I'm not convinced. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 15:43:00 UTC Reply

The lightsaber is huge, true enough - but it's one huge cutting edge. It doesn't matter whether you swing the tip at half the speed of sound, or simply bump the emitter up against someone - when it comes to living things, a lightsaber simply goes through without stopping.

That's weird, I know; it's not something we have an equivalent to in the real world. But slapping the big blade up against someone right up close isn't going to slow it down, or make it difficult to control - from everything we've seen in the films, it'll just go straight through. And I'd much rather slice my close-quarters opponent in half than stick a tiny, probably-non-lethal hole in him.

To pick a single example: the cross-guard can put your enemy's eye out. In exactly the same amount of time and with exactly the same amount of effort, the main blade can bisect his head. This is like... like fixing a catapult to the top of your sniper rifle 'because catapults have shorter range'.

hS

Re: Eh, I'm not convinced. by Mikelus on 2014-12-04 15:50:00 UTC Reply

True, the lightsaber can cut t any speed, but the concept of power attacks and that style of melee isn't based around speed to aid in cutting. A power attack is meant to hit the opponent's blade, so they can shatter the defense. Think Episode 6, when Luke repeatedly beats Vader's defense down with two-handed strikes.

And this point of the long blade, that I was making earlier, is that the length makes it more difficult to maneuver, which in close combat could be a deadly issue. It that situation, rather than adding a catapult to a sniper, it's like adding a bayonet to a sniper so you can use it effectively at stabbing ranges.

Hmm. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 16:08:00 UTC Reply

I agree that the long blade will aid in power strikes, which is very Sith, but I'm still not convinced the little ones will help in close combat. How is the long blade difficult to maneuver? It cuts through anything. It's literally point-and-slice. Sure, you might damage a few things on the way, but by then your opponent is dead meat.

Furthermore, it's... it's still there anyway. If you're trying to hit someone with the cross-guard, you're swinging the main blade around while you do it. In fact, it's exactly like fitting a bayonet to a rifle - when you have unlimited bullets and no problems with recoil or anything. Since the bayonet is fixed in place, anything you kill with it is equally killable with a bullet. Same thing here.

I may be wrong. But I honestly can't come up with a scenario in which using the little crossblades would be in any way better than using the large one. A lightsaber blade is massless, it has no momentum - unless you're fighting two opponents, have let one lock your blade, and the other one's diving right in your face (in which case you have bigger problems, frankly), I can't see them as in any way useful.

And, like I said - no one has ever sharpened their cross-guard. I'm thinking there's a reason for that.

hS

PS: But please do prove me wrong. I'd actually like this to be a well thought-through design, strange though that may seem. ^_~

Re: Hmm. by Mikelus on 2014-12-04 17:29:00 UTC Reply

A specific scenario I can come up with off the top of my head is blocking with this blade, then twisting so that you can bring the hilt in for a pommel strike. It's a common enough move, and a favorite of Darth Malgus from SWTOR. With a move like that, it would be a simple enough matter, especially with the extra length from this blade, to strike with a point further up the hilt, like the crossguard. Considering that there are Sith weapons with blade cross-guards already (Darth Malgus' blade comes to mind), it's entirely possible that the lightsaber cross-guard was an evolution of that.

That's almost reasonable. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 10:22:00 UTC Reply

Of course, given that there's a full cross-bar, you run the risk of them knocking it back towards you. That sounds like the sort of move that would be done right up close, so you've got a real chance of being impaled on your own blade. Seems like it would make more sense to just have one...

Either way, I'm going to make a prediction: the crossguard will be used precisely once in the film, to catch a blow that he should by rights have caught on the main blade. Then it will be completely ignored even when it might be useful, and will never be at risk of harming anyone. Because they just made it to look cool.

hS

I think I have an idea by Phobos on 2014-12-04 16:47:00 UTC Reply

I think that these cross-guard blades could serve two important functions.

1) Imagine, for a moment, that you are a Jedi. You are moving through this forest, aware that Sith are around. You come around a tree and this guy is standing in front of you. You draw your lightsaber and activate it. He activates his completely ordinary, if a little long and thin, saber. You can handle this, no problem. And then he activates the cross-guard. You've never seen something like that before. How does he use those blades? Are they defensive or offensive? How do you counter them?

He has the advantage because this new variable puts his opponent off balance. There is something to be said for having dangerous looking decorations.

2) We have been thinking of the lightsaber solely as a melee weapon, and I think that is a mistake. The lightsaber throw is a time-honored tradition, after all. So, what happens if you throw a regular saber? There is a good chance that your enemy gets the blade to their face and dies. All well and good. What happens if the hilt hits them? They get a lump on their head and keep fighting. So, these cross-guard blades potentially increase your chance to deal real damage with a saber toss. They also make it less likely that a Jedi is going to pluck your whirling saber out of the air and toss it back.

Anyway, those are a couple of the ideas that I've had.

-Phobos, who actually likes the design, if for no other reason than aesthetics.

Alternate Lightsaber techniques by Darkotas on 2014-12-05 05:00:00 UTC Reply

I was thinking of the cross guard as a saber throw tool - it would allow for hits at different angles. Alternatively, the smaller blades could be used for precision cutting of objects (though a fusion cutter would work just as well). Personally, I think the cross guard blades would best be used as a last resort or surprise weapon, nothing more.

Oh, and I came across an album of more pragmatic lightsaber techniques. I'm a fan of The Force Grenade myself.
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/rXss2

Re: Alternate Lightsaber techniques by Mikelus on 2014-12-05 07:43:00 UTC Reply

Looking at those, I see several that actually have been used places before, like the Viper's Tongue. However, a lot seem to require your opponent being foolish, or fail to consider the fact that your opponent is likely Force sensitive as well. Also, all of the ones that ask for precision force pulls and pushes fail to consider exactly how difficult such moves are. In the movies, Jedi can quickly do mass pushes, but it takes time and concentration to summon things like lightsabers back to their hands.

Honestly, when I see assumptions about using the Force on Jedi in combat, I get slightly annoyed. Jedi have Force barriers, mental defenses they erect with the Force to defend against Force attacks. It's the reason why all of Vader's fights aren't simply him choking the other Jedi to death.

That being said, I did like the Dewback Tail.

Very true. by Darkotas on 2014-12-05 08:54:00 UTC Reply

The "force barrier" concept is vital, and would definitely protect from a number of these techniques. I do think the ability of a lightsaber to near-instantly expand and retract is underutilized, though - it might be boring to watch, but fights would be much more cerebral with anticipating when the blade might not be there.

Someone pointed out in the comments... by Huinesoron on 2014-12-05 10:41:00 UTC Reply

... that lightsabers tend to be used as if they were normal swords: they're swung as if they had weight, and remain on at all times. Really, you'd think after a thousand generations, the Jedi would've come up with some new techniques.

Of course, for large chunks of those, lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat was vanishingly rare. The only purpose of it was in non-combat duels, which serve either as training or to impress the yokels. So I guess they may have artificially kept it sword-like in order to make themselves look more impressive? It also makes it easy to tell who 'wins', whereas if you're flicking the thing on and off all the time, it's difficult to say unless you actually kill someone. Which wouldn't go down too well with the public.

Doesn't excuse the Sith, though - but come to think of it, haven't most of the innovative sabers been Sith inventions? The double-bladed variant, Dooku's curved hilt, the lightwhip... it's surprising really that the dual-phase saber was invented by a Jedi (though the Corellian Jedi were something of a force of their own anyway).

Oh, and on the subject of lightsaber variants: apparently the idea of sticking a (single) crossguard-type blade on your hilt has already been tried. That looks much more useful than the full-cross variant...

hS

Yeah, but... by SeaTurtle on 2014-12-04 16:02:00 UTC Reply

...trying to him someone with the mini-lightsaber beams at that range would involve a whole lot of wrist contortions that just seem pointless and really dangerous considering that the main blade would be really, really close to your face.

Which is why you just grab a blaster for convenience's sake.

Seems your fingers would hit the metal bit, not the blades. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-12-04 14:29:00 UTC Reply

Yes, I did in fact say exactly that. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-12-04 14:49:00 UTC Reply

You said the hand would be cut off or the fingers singed. by Ekyl on 2014-12-04 20:58:00 UTC Reply

"As for the second purpose - well, it would stop your hand slipping onto the blade, but only by cutting it off before it got there."

At this point we're just arguing pedantry though, so ah well. :P I'm just glad to see a laser sword that looks and maybe acts like, you know, a sword.

You could say I've yet to find A New Hope. (nm) by DemonFiren on 2014-12-02 10:08:00 UTC Reply

Or, alternatively, that Ep. VII seems like a Phantom Menace. (nm by DemonFiren on 2014-12-02 10:09:00 UTC Reply

Well, yeah, but... by Huinesoron on 2014-12-02 10:21:00 UTC Reply

... from the trailer, it looks like we've got the Empire striking back, and the revenge of at least one Sith - and, of course, we pretty much have to see the return of the Jedi, when the Force awakens.

hS

Remember... by Asbestoast on 2014-12-03 20:58:00 UTC Reply

This could be an excellent opportunity to see some new Star Wars battlefronts, and maybe even a Jedi Academy or some knights of the New Republic.

I'm betting Dark Forces are at work. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-03 21:28:00 UTC Reply

So we'll probably see X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter on the Galactic Battlegrounds while the Empire is At War. And hey, who knows - Luke might even tell some Yoda Stories.

hS

I'm Wary but Excited by AsbesToast on 2014-12-01 21:20:00 UTC Reply

I seriously want there to be another awesome Star Wars thing.

I really, really do. I mean, Episode Six was the worst of the original trilogy in my opinion, Episodes One through Three were... well, they have a reputation for a reason. Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars series was solid, but not great, and the new Clone Wars series, while it had its moments, generally fell flat for me.

Still, from what I saw in the trailer... if anything looks like it's going to bring the series out of its slump, this is it.

I mean, I think we can all agree the slump-breaker isn't going to be... Star Wars Rebels... *shudders*
Time to put on my star wars nerd hat. by Mikelus on 2014-12-01 19:12:00 UTC Reply

So, I'm gonna address each point you made about the trailer.

On X-Wings and TIE fighters:

The X-wing was an impressive workhorse. Even if it was rendered obsolete, it was still impressive in combat, and would take quite a long time to phase out of action. While thirty years seems a bit high, the fact that we know little about the current situation in the galaxy means it may still be the most useful craft. Or, alternatively, the X-Wings shown belonged to the system defense forces on whichever planet that was.

As for TIE fighters, the empire never cared if something was a deathtrap as long as it could do it's job. For the TIE, it was to be cheap to produce, easy to train for, and moderately effective in combat. It is entirely possible that the newer and rarer models, such as the Interceptor and the Phantom, were too expensive for the mass production required to phase out the standard TIE.

On Planet Dustbowl:

Ok, yeah. I'll admit we've spent way too much time there, provided this is Tatooine we're looking at.

The Astromech is simply amusing. Though it's design doesn't seem very useful, it seems like it would be much better suited for the desert than a standard R2 unit. I would assume there are some features or legs built in, similar to the Droideka Design.

And the lightsaber. I'm not gonna lie, I love that lightsaber. I haven't seen a blade so fitting for a Sith in a long time. The blade itself is long, granting reach and advantage for Power Attacks. It isn't built for defense, but Sith don't really consider defense that often, so no real loss there. The crossguard falls into the same situation. It isn't meant for blocking, or deflecting attacks. It's meant to give the Sith another angle to kill you with. Pommel strikes are already a common thing in lightsaber combat, so adding an additional blade or two to take advantage isn't an issue.

I'll be honest, this trailer sent my inner nerd into a frenzy of excitement, which was it's job.

About the 'obsolescence' by JulyFlame on 2014-12-02 05:19:00 UTC Reply

Real world wise, we have plenty of aircraft of models that are thirty years or older that are still used constantly to date- one example is the F/A 18 Hornet.

It's true. by Huinesoron on 2014-12-02 09:17:00 UTC Reply

But we don't live in !!SPAAAAAAAACE!!.

In particular, in the ~~proper~~ ~~real~~ original timeline, the Empire has gotten much nicer over the past thirty years. It's still hardly a beacon of light and justice, but it's gotten a bit beyond letting its pilots all die before they learn how to fight properly. So the TIE/LN is not just obsolete (in particular versus the much faster Interceptor), it's obsolete and dangerous.

hS

I'm in it for the spaceships. by SeaTurtle on 2014-12-01 16:47:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, sure, they're outdated and stuff, but seeing this:

...this is just too good to miss. Here's to hoping we get to see more spacecraft than just the X-wings.

Those aren't your parents' X-wings, either... by Techno-Dann on 2014-12-03 04:09:00 UTC Reply

For comparison's sake, see this diagram... They've clearly upgraded the S-foils and nosecone, and the cockpit geometry looks different as well. This looks a lot like either a new version entirely (like the Super Hornets mentioned earlier) or a heavy incremental upgrade - with new avionics, flight controls, and engines, even a thirty-year-old spaceframe could be quite the contender.

Why am I not surprised you noticed that? :D by Huinesoron on 2014-12-03 10:05:00 UTC Reply

Let's do a comparison image, shall we?

You're right about the S-foils - the bottom one in particular is really narrow now, and it looks to me like they're designed to lie side-by-side, instead of on top of each other. That would give a slimmer profile, and reduce the chance of the wing getting shot off while in flight position.

The nosecone, too - the new version is much more streamlined. Not sure about the cockpit - it looks slimmer and/or longer, but that might be perspective.

And the biggest difference - where's the astromech? It should be clearly visible right behind the cockpit, but I can't see hide nor, uh, wire of it. Is there a new, low-profile droid back there? Has it been shifted backwards? Or have they removed it altogether?

But why stop there? Let's look at the inside of that cockpit.

(Hi, Wedge!)

It looks like there are at least cosmetic tweaks to the cockpit design after all - those angled rear windows aren't in the old T-65. And they've cleared out all those pipes from Wedge's day - possibly because the new shot was taken in atmosphere? I think they've also widened the cockpit, but not made it taller - the struts in the new one are angled slightly more from the vertical. They look thicker, too.

It also looks like the pilot sits lower down with respect to the windows - Wedge's shoulders would be visible from outside, whereas the new guy's wouldn't.

All in all, there have been some redesigns - though whether they're a major shift in the way X-wings are built, or simply the New Republic trying to pretend it's doing something (sort of like car companies keep redesigning their cars to be identical but different), I don't know.

Anyone want to pull up a comparison of the Falcoln and see whether Han and Chewie have made any upgrades? Or, the really big one - those TIEs? ^_^

hS