Subject: ... Whoops. Sorry about the enormous pic. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2016-01-13 11:41:00 UTC
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Just going to put this idea out there. by
on 2016-01-10 19:03:00 UTC
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Last night, I had a plotbunny. An Lotr AU where Sauron didn't make The One Ring. As a result, The Last Alliance didn't happen. The Ringwraiths didn't happen. The Elven rings were still made by Celebrimbor, but that power is imperfect. Long story short: they've lived the whole third age with Sauron over their heads, preparing. What do you think?
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Look what you did. Here's what I think happens: by
on 2016-01-11 12:47:00 UTC
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Aragorn, King of Dale, defeats Witch-Kings of Gondor and claims Mordor for the elves.
Here's the situation in around 1200 of the Second Age. The Elven realms are growing ever more fair: Lindon is blossoming in the north-west (around Mithlond), and there's a lively trade around Khazad-Dum, Eregion, and Lorien. At this time, a powerful and beautiful stranger calling himself Annatar, 'the Lord of Gifts', comes out of the east, offering aid to the elves. Gil-Galad and Elrond bar the gates of Mithlond, refusing him entry.
At Ost-in-Edhil, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, and Celeborn of Eregion... do exactly the same.
Sauron (yes, it was him) returns east, his plan to corrupt the Noldorin kingdoms a failure. He managed to gain some influence in the other elvish realms - Eryn Galen, for instance - but they are Sindar and Nandor, and Morgoth's heir has no interest in trees. So he holes up in Mordor, building the great fortress of Barad-Dur, and preparing.
In Eregion, Celebrimbor's folk continue their research into 'magic' rings, trying to stay the ravages of time on their realm. With no Annatar to drive them out, Galadriel and Celeborn remain in the Noldorin realm, lending their skill. Over the centuries, the art of ring-making is perfected: from minor rings the smiths progress to Rings of Power which can preserve mortals against death and heighten the bearer's innate powers, and then, finally, to a single Great Ring which can sustain an entire nation against decay.
The Rings are gifted to Eregion's allies: to Durin of Khazad-Dum, to Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Cirdan, to Amdir of Laurelindorenan, even to mortal folk living on their borders. But the Great Ring is kept by Celebrimbor, and worn by him alone.
Somewhere around S.A. 1800, Sauron completes the millennial labour that is the construction of Barad-Dur. He openly declares himself as Morgoth's Heir - but the time is not yet ripe for him to strike. His agents attempt to sow discord among his enemies, while the Dark Lord waits for an opportunity, and a pretext.
By around 1900, he finds his opening. Hordes of orcs swarm across Middle-earth, advancing through what we know as the Gap of Rohan and entering Eregion in war. They are aided by the mortal men of the forests, who rise up against the Numenoreans oppressing them, and swear fealty to Mordor.
The Ringbearers gather in Ost-in-Edhil, bending all their might against the Dark Lord. They have no hope of victory - Gil-Galad's overtures to Numenor have been turned down flat by Tar-Ciryatan. All they can do is prolonge the siege as much as possible, to buy time for their folk to flee.
Yet Numenor comes.
Not out of friendship with the elves - Tar-Ciryatan has long disliked their folk, and in his court speaks openly against the Ban of the Valar - but to protect their own interests, the logging grounds and the haven at Lond Daer. The Numenorean Grand Fleet sails up the Greyflood and shatters the years-long siege of Ost-in-Edhil. Sauron's army is in tatters, and the Dark Lord flees back to the east. The Free Peoples have their victory, and Eregion stands.
Yet the Shadow is still spreading over Numenor. Men of Westernesse continue their mass deforestation of the lands immediately south of Eregion, and their cruelty to the native mortals causes sporadic uprisings. Anti-elven sentiment rises in Numenor, until eventually, hundreds of years after the defeat of Sauron, the inevitable occurs: war.
The Numenorean navy again sails up the Greyflood in battle. Ost-in-Edhil is caught unawares. There is to be no second Siege. Numenorean fire meets elven art - and it is the elves who are broken.
As Eregion falls under the iron fist of Numenor, a second fleet blockades Lindon. The soldiers do not attack, but their message is clear - any attempt to relieve Eregion will be met with death.
The great folk of Eregion flee through Moria. They are not welcomed in Laurelindorenan, but continue northwards to found a new settlement around the upper Anduin. In their former home, Numenor gathers up all the magic artefacts it can find - including many of the Rings of Power. Tar-Vanimelde, Ruling Queen of Numenor, will never yield the sceptre: she and her husband will reign forever, and her armies will be led by immortal generals.
The centuries pass. The situation in Numenor grows worse and worse. Lindon, under threat of invasion, slowly empties, ceding the lands west of the Misty Mountains to Men. In the east, Sauron's armies grow once more in power. In former Eregion - and further south, around Anduin's mouth and down in Umbar - the Numenoreans build havens, claim territories, and take slaves. A clash is inevitable, somewhere, between some parties.
Sauron moves first. Jealous of Numenorean power, he seizes their lesser forts up Anduin - and in the north, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor, influences by Sauron's agents, declare their own war. An alliance of elves and dwarves storms out of Khazad-Dum and down into Eregion.
But all involved have underestimated Numenor. Ar-Abârzîr (Tar-Vanimelde's Adunaic name, for she no longer allows the High Elven tongue to be spoken) storms into Middle-earth. Her armies are unstoppable, and her invisible spies, bearers of Rings of Power, can penetrate any camp not staffed by Eldar of Valinor.
The attacks fail, and worse: the leaders of both agressors are taken captive. Sauron, Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, and Durin IV are borne in chains to Numenor. Khazad-Dum is laid waste, Numenorean soldiers cross the High Pass, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Dwarves are forced to flee beyond Greenwood, to the Long Lake and Lonely Mountain. Immortal Numenorean generals are set in place over the various fallen realms - including Mordor.
In Numenor, Ar-Abârzîr's captives are paraded before the people. It amuses the Witch-Queen of Westernesse to listen to their bargains and pleas - and that, of course, suits Sauron just fine. It isn't long (a couple of hundred years) before he is able to convince the queen to listen to him.
In whispers he tells her of Celebrimbor's Ring - the Ring that can give her back her beauty, rescue her from her shadow-life, but let her keep her powers - nay, even make them greater than before. Swayed, Ar-Abârzîr takes the Great Ring from Celebrimbor - and, when it does not do as Sauron promised, has the Elven smith tortured to death over several years, trying to extract the secret from him.
It takes Sauron longer to bring about his true goal. Slowly, slowly, he persuades the Queen that the Valar are responsible for her half-alive state - that if she can conquer the Blessed Realm as she has Middle-earth, she will have the life she craves. Centuries pass as Ar-Abârzîr prepares her armies, develops her technology (using captured Elven smiths), and lays her plans.
With the elves no longer an active enemy in Middle-earth, the Faithful of Elendil's line (for Elendil himself is long-dead by this time) have something of a resurgance. When the Witch-Queen finally launches her attack, they are ready - not to sink her fleet, nor to attempt to sieze the throne, but to rescue the imprisoned Elvish leaders and flee to Middle-earth.
The Faithful's plan succeeds. So does Sauron's. When the Witch-Queen sets foot in Aman, the Valar lay down their guardianship of Arda. The world is made round. The only escapees from the Downfall of Numenor are the small ships of the Faithful, bearing their precious elven cargo.
But there is more to the Numenorean world than just the isle. Armies and immortals still watch over Middle-earth, and they are not about to bow to Faithful traitors.
Here is Middle-earth after the fall of Numenor:
The Faithful land in abandoned Lindon and take the treacherous ways north of the mountains to Erebor. The Numenorean havens unite to form a Kingdom in Exile - but an Adunaic-speaking one that is hostile to the elves. Sauron's spirit cannot return to occupied Mordor - he flees further east. Since the fall of Numenor and the loss of his body has weakened him to the point where he will take centuries to recover, the Downfall is accounted the end of the Second Age.
The Third Age will have to be sketched in broad strokes. A mingled civilisation of elves, men, and dwarves is built in northern Rhovanion, taking in the Greenwood and the Iron Hills, and extending down as far as Dorwinion on the Sea of Rhun. They face incursions from the east as Sauron rebuilds, and an implacable enemy to the south.
The Numenoreans build a nation across the south. With Eregion's trees long gone, and the 'New Hollin' settlement constantly raided by the folk of Erebor, they pull back to the Greyflood. Calenardhon (=Rohan) and Dunland make up one facet of the kingdom; southern Gondor and the lands down to Umbar make the second; Ithilien and Mordor (when it's not held by the orcs, which happens fairly regularly) make the third. The last three Numenorean immortals become three kings, sometimes firm allies with each other, sometimes in open war. They will always unite to counter the elves, Sauron, or the Haradrim, however.
hS -
Nice, Nice! How's this? by
on 2016-01-12 01:05:00 UTC
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That was amazing, so much better than mine. Here it is.
My idea was that Sauron considered bending them to his will, but also thought about the drawbacks of having all his power in a central object. Instead, he decides to occupy huge swathes of land, as normal. Ar-Pharazon objects, captures him, and Sauron manages to sink Numenor, the world is Bent, and Elendil swears vengeance. Meanwhile, Celebrimbor realizes that Elven power will not last forever, and decides to create objects that could stop that process. He creates three prototype rings, and gives them to his love, Galadriel and Gil-Galad, ruler of the elves. Sadly, Sauron kills him before he could perfect this art. The prototype rings could only vastly slow down the elven aging process, not stop it in it's tracks. Galadriel chooses to set up her own elven kingdom of Lothlorien, while Gil-Galad keeps the other two. He later chooses to give Vilya to Elrond, so that he could form Rivendell.
Years pass, and the threat of Sauron still looms in Mordor. Elendil has his children, Anarion and Isildur. They each inherit on half of the fathers kingdom, and thus Arnor and Gondor are formed. Over time, Numenorean tensions rise. There are only so many Numenorean families you could marry into, and so Gondor loses Umbar to Castamir's descendants, over Eldacar's blood purity. Meanwhile, with Gondor between them and Mordor, Arnor becomes much more laid-back as a state. A clash between three brothers changes that. Arnor is split between Cardolan, Arthedain and Rhudaur. Rhudaur was formed as a more militaristic Arnor, and Arthedain split off because of the arrival of the hobbits, who Cardolan wanted nothing to do with. After all, they were a peaceful group, and would do nothing much for the fragments of Arnor. Over time, Arthedain would rejoin Cardolan to combat the threat of Rhudaur, which was taken over by Sauron's spies. Time passes, and there is relative stability. The Kingdoms prosper, but Sauron remains over their heads.
I understand that there are a lot of details that I have not touched on, but this is everything I have fully thought out. Do you think "If Sauron didn't make the ring" is a good writing prompt? -
Historical determinism. by
on 2016-01-12 11:11:00 UTC
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The trouble I have with this kind of AU is that it assumes history stays the same except when you specifically changes. It's like having the Aztecs beat the Conquistadors and take over North America - but then insisting that the southern members of the United States of Aztlan attempt to secede from the northern ones over the issue of slavery.
You have Ar-Pharazon still being the king who brings about the Downfall; Galadriel still ending up in Lorien; Elrond still building Imladris; Gondor and Arnor still splitting (Isildur was heading north to claim the throne of a United Kingdom when he was killed!); Arnor still breaking up, and in exactly the same way; Rhudaur still becoming a subject of Sauron; Umbar still splitting off. You've assumed that the canon history is almost inevitable, with only minor changes from your point of departure.
I go (if anything, too far) the other way: history is fragile. 'Stray but a little, and it will fail'. For storytelling purposes, it's useful to keep the same names - so I've still used Gondor to describe the Numenorean kingdoms-in-exile, for instance - but in practical terms, a tiny change will lead to massive differences when you get thousands of years down the line.
I guess they're two different ways of looking at AUs, so I'm not precisely telling you you're wrong. I just think my way isbettermore fun. ^_^
hS
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Yeah, I see what you mean. by
on 2016-01-12 20:59:00 UTC
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I had the idea that a timeline is immutable, and that things would happen anyways. Like all those stories about killing Hitler as a child, only to realize that it wasn't actually Hitler you killed. You have made a much more plausible-sounding AU. I got this idea from a disorganized ME RP where pretty much everyone wanted to be Sauron. So we had 3 different people being Sauron, running around with a physical form. By trying to fill in that plothole, I have apparently made more. Dang. Thanks for showing me that.
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PPC Magic by
on 2016-01-13 00:02:00 UTC
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This is the most magical place on the internet, I swear. You turned roleplay incompetence into one of the most absurdly in-depth fan-made timelines I've seen in a long time.
It's beautiful. -
Speaking of historical divergences. by
on 2016-01-12 12:17:00 UTC
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I'm reading an AU of WWII, where the French didn't surrender on June 40. It's still a work in progress, but these guys are doing a wonderful work with this, and I think they do a pretty good job of showing all the changes induced by this point of divergence. Even the Pacific War is affected, and from what they wrote, decolonisation would quite a bit different from reality.
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That's interesting. by
on 2016-01-12 14:05:00 UTC
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Care to share a link? I want to read that, too.
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I'm warning you, it's a French site. by
on 2016-01-12 14:11:00 UTC
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Heard about an English parallel project, but he's pretty much dead and far less advanced. Like Tv Tropes 'It's Better As It Sounds' would say: The mistress of a Prime Minister dies, the world changes.
They're working on 1943 at the moment, except for the Russian Front which is having a massive overhaul and go only up to September 42 reliably. They even published two tomes under the form of a book. If you search on the forum, you'll also have the integral for 1943 about Birmany and Indochina.
Enjoy. ;) -
Ahh. by
on 2016-01-12 16:54:00 UTC
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Unfortunately, I don't read French.
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Sorry about this. by
on 2016-01-12 17:08:00 UTC
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I found it is a really good uchrony. A shame you can't read it. Would you like to hear about some bits of it, though? Ask any question, and I'll do my best to give you an answer.
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Whoops, anon post. That was me. (nm) by
on 2016-01-12 04:54:00 UTC
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This is epic. Plus my Hobbit interpretation. by
on 2016-01-11 21:55:00 UTC
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I'm not going to lie. I freaking love this. I would write AUs SO HARD......
Erebor would be a mixed community of men, elves, and dwarves, working together to forge the most beautiful things in Middle-earth. Of course, Smaug would have been rather attracted to this hoard, maybe even more so than originally.
So Gandalf seeks to drive the dragon out at the first chance he gets, of course, with Sauron hanging over everyone's heads, and Numenor looking to take advantage of their weakness.
Enter Bilbo Baggins.
While constant warring tears apart the lands north and east, the Shire continues to prosper in a simple, cheerful lifestyle. They hear the rumbles of warfare, rumors from Bree and elsewhere, but this "news from Bree" is never given much stock. Bilbo remains comfortably ignorant (or ignoring) of the troubles beyond his immediate existence.
Until a wizard, three elves, four men, and six dwarves, including Thorin Oakenshield, suddenly show up for tea and invite him on an adventure.
Cue encounters with trolls, goblins, a skinchanger, giant spiders, mistrustful elves, a dragon, etc. Bilbo still picks up a ring of power in the caves. (I imagine Sméagol could have easily been a hobbit who somehow came into possession of a ring of power, and used it for ill purposes. He still would have been kicked out of his community and end up banished, with a longerish lifespan, if not long enough to be around to meet Bilbo or anything.) Basically, the Hobbit happens as laid out in the book, with the overlay of serious political problems and constant threat of war.
As this motley band proceeds toward Erebor, Sauron begins to set his long awaited plan in motion. The Battle of Five Armies comes about as an impromptu alliance of various men, elves, and dwarves to fight the wave of orcs meant to arouse Smaug for battle.
They win, Thorin dies, there's gold for all involved, etc. Bilbo goes back to the Shire and whatnot, everything's happy.
Bilbo raises Frodo and bequeaths him the ring.
Who wants to go next? :D -
The Shire, the Shire. by
on 2016-01-12 10:36:00 UTC
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"There won't be a Shire, Sam."
Or at least, not as we know it. The Shire was able to exist as a peaceful realm because the Rangers of Arnor were constantly watching its borders. But there is no Arnor in the Witch-Queen timeline - nothing to stop the Big Folk (and worse!) from traipsing all over the green-hill country.
But on the flip side, there are far fewer Big Folk around. Assuming Bree managed to escape slavery under the Numenoreans (and since they never really spread that far north, it's reasonable), they're... about it. There's the Snowmen of Forochel, but they wouldn't really come south. And unlike the canon timeline, the lack of Angmar and a weaker Sauron mean the Misty Mountains aren't particularly goblin-heavy - so there's not going to be too many orcs wandering in the west.
The Shire would definitely have to fend for itself - the Bounders would be armed (with bows, we know hobbits use those), and would be greatly increased in number - but they probably wouldn't have too much trouble. The prominence of the Took and Brandybuck families... well, they're always subject to the butterfly effect, but there's nothing obviously outside-related to them. I think you'd have more contact with Bree, and less well-defined borders to the Shire - remember, their original borders were laid by the King, and there is no king in this timeline - but ultimately, it's the same folk in the same place.
The other key question: would Smaug be able to take Erebor with the likes of Galadriel and Gil-Galad defending it? Um... probably! Prior to Smaug, the only person we know has killed a flying dragon was Earendil - and he used a Silmaril and a flying ship to do it! And if the United Kingdom of Erebor falls, the people would probably in part flee west: to the ruins of Lindon and the Blue Mountains, precisely where Thorin's company travelled from.
So this is plausible. Your Company may include key leaders - Gil-Galad, Arathorn King of Dale. There would be no Imladris to stop off in, unless it was built as a post-Smaug waypoint. The Mountains would be less dangerous, Mirkwood is still Greenwood (no Dol Guldur!), and Thranduil - no, his father, Oropher, is still alive! - is less hostile (though probably still doesn't one his theoretical overlord rousing the dragon). It would be a different story, but it could hit a lot of the same notes.
(If Smeagol got hold of a Ring of Power, under this model he would still be immortal - look at the Witch-Kings of Gondor, they're still around after thousands of years!)
hS -
On the Snowmen of Forochel: by
on 2016-01-12 23:04:00 UTC
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My (admittedly limited) reading of them likens them to Sami herders, but Iunno how feasible that is given the Ice-Bay of Forochel. Would it be more likely to liken them to Siberian coastal natives like the Chukchi? Because that opens up a lot of possibilities for AUs, given where and when they first appeared - for instance, in this AU, do the Lossoth venture south to trade with those who came North and fight off those who would seek to subjugate them? I ask because I personally quite like the image of a particularly adventuresome Bounder wandering north and coming home with an elaborately carved bow... and wearing something a little like this:-
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Um. Good question. by
on 2016-01-13 09:47:00 UTC
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I know nothing about our world's natives of cold regions (other than Britain!), but here's the picture I get of the Lossoth:
-They're related to the Men of Beleriand - but it's not clear which set. They could be relatives of the Edain, but their northerly location also opens the possibility that they're some of those 'Easterlings' who allied with Morgoth (or, more politely, the ones who were faithful to Maedhros at the Nirnaeth). Their closest neighbours, the folk of Bree, were of Haladin (Second House) origin - but they moved up from Dunland. I'd guess at the Forodwaith (=pre-Lossoth) being Swarthy Men in origin, but not Morgoth-worshippers. Per Appendix A: These are a strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith, Men of far-off days, accustomed to the bitter colds of the realm of Morgoth.
-Their tech level is low. They didn't particularly understand either iron weapons or sailing ships (possibly boats in general - I can't find anyone quoting it).
-On the flip side, they have some tech that isn't found elsewhere. Per Appendix A: The Lossoth house in the snow, and it is said that they can run on the ice with bones on their feet. and have carts without wheels. It's pretty clear from the snow-houses that Tolkien was thinking of 'eskimos', but we're not here to talk about what he thought. ^^
-They were... well, you can't call it superstitious when magic actually exists! They believed the Witch-King could control ice and cold, and they could predict when the weather was about to turn (which Arvedui didn't believe, to his cost).
-They don't move about much. That may be partly from lingering fear of Angmar, but I think they just... liked it where they were. The fact that they didn't have wheeled vehicles means they'd have trouble moving around in the south anyway, and the fact that they don't really trust anybody - they're very suspicious of Arvedui - means they they just... stay put.
I don't know what that means for real-world comparisons, I'm afraid. I do like the idea of a hide-clad wandering Hobbit. ^^
hS -
Hm... intriguing. by
on 2016-01-13 11:40:00 UTC
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If you're right and they don't have boats, then that rules out... like, a lot of northern indigenous peoples, including both the Chukchi and the Inuit. Fishing is about your best source of food up there (well, that and reindeer), so they're limited to ice-hole fishing without boats. However, it doesn't rule out certain denominations of the Sami, which I quite like because it means they might have hidden Arvedui in a storehouse that looked like this:-
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... Whoops. Sorry about the enormous pic. (nm) by
on 2016-01-13 11:41:00 UTC
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Okay, so... by
on 2016-01-12 12:21:00 UTC
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I'm the sort that likes to see what stories would look like in a new AU setting, and I like seeing where the differences and similarities might be. Besides, M-e would be in serious trouble without the Shire, imho! ^^
1. Tougher hobbits lend themselves to either a) less freaked-out Bilbo, or b) more freaked-out Bilbo, which I like better. I kind of like to think about B greeting his first unexpected guest at bowpoint lol. I imagine the hobbits distinguish themselves from the chaotic, roughshod Big Folk by their code of respectability and manners. Also, they do have closer ties with Bree, but they believe the people of Bree to be subject to fanciful thinking and/or undue panicking.
2. If there aren't goblins in the Misty Mountains, that means Bilbo & Co. would either a) need a different excuse to drag them down there so B can get the ring, perhaps Sméagol himself, or b) they don't go underground into the Mountains at all, which would mean B would have to find the ring elsewhere.
3. I imagine the Witch-Queen doesn't exactly like Gandalf/Mithrandir, and wouldn't be too happy about a group going back to reclaim Erebpr and it's surrounding lands. So there's a potential conflict. She may even send troops to stop them.
4. So our Company includes Thorin Oakenshield, Gil-galad, and Arathorn for sure, along with perhaps Elrond, a smattering of dwarves (Fili and Kili? Balin?), and a few men.
4. I was under the impression that the less power in a ring of power, the less power it had to stop aging, etc. I don't know how Sméagol would have have gotten a more powerful ring. Am I just making stuff up in my head or is that a thing?
Just saying, tougher hobbits is *the best* thing since ever. -
I love numbered lists. ^_^ by
on 2016-01-12 13:21:00 UTC
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They make rambling so much more structured.
1/ That is a fantastic image. Bow-wielding Bilbo is like a cuddly Rabbit of Caerbannog.
2/ There could be goblins - Sauron is on the rise, after all, and Morgoth's old haunts were in the North. It's hard to imagine a Smeagol-figure anywhere other than underground... the Ring could be passed down the family of a Beorn-analogue, perhaps, or the Company could pass through 'New Hollin' and find it buried. (I'll also note here that the Rohirrim - or rather, the Eotheod - are allies of Erebor, never moved south, and are only a little north of the Company's route. Butterflies, butterflies...)
3/ Well, the Witch-Queen of Numenor is dead(?) somewhere in Aman, but her three generals are still here (and probably venerating her as a deity, which must tick off Sauron no end). Given their millennia-old grudge against Erebor, they would absolutely try and interfere.
4/ This is the point where you get to play 'spot the cameo'. Is Galadriel with the company? Celeborn? Elrond and Celebrian (yeah, no Imladris, so she's still around.) What about Dain Ironfoot? Halbarad of Dale? He might be a bit young - but what about Denethor of Dale, distant cousin to Arathorn? (Imrahil of Dol Amroth doesn't exist, alas - his ancestry involves the elf-haven at Edhellond, which the Numenoreans took long ago.) Or you muck about with timelines and generations a little and stick Aragorn and Boromir in - and on the way over, they run into Theoden of the Eotheod and his family... but this is all getting a little too 'historical preservation' for me, I think. ^_^
5/ Er... 4b/ The Rings are a bit sketchy even in canon. The Sixteen (Seven + Nine) were identical, and could all make you immortal - look at the Nazgul. There were lesser rings with undefined effects.
I've assumed that Celebrimbor made around the same number of Rings, meaning there are 15-20 Rings of Power in existence, plus the (destroyed with Numenor? Stolen back by the Faithful?) Great Ring. Then there's a bunch of lesser rings.
The Rings of Power make you immortal (ie, a ringwraith) and enhance your innate powers, but the key thing to remember is that that was never the goal. The Great Ring - or, in canon, the Three - was the only one that did what it was meant to: preserve a land against decay. Nenya is the reason Lorien can still grow mellyrn, and that time is wonky there. Vilya is probably behind Rivendell's secrecy. Narya... well, Narya is on the hand of a demigod who's made it his purpose to preserve the entire world, who knows what it's doing? (There's a lovely story by Cirdan about what happened when the Ring of Fire was given to Gandalf: Mithlond's First Winter.)
Anyway: 'New Hollin' was around where Smeagol would later live, so stumbling across a Ring of Power isn't too farfetched. We know that Numenor had at least five, probably at least eight (three Witch-Kings, the Witch-Queen, her husband, and at least three generals in Numenor itself); we know that Durin's line (ie, Thorin) has one, as do (likely) Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Celeborn, and Elrond (though any who were taken to Numenor may have lost them there). Even assuming Gil-Galad and Galadriel had to source replacements, that still only comes to 15, so there's definitely scope for one to have gone missing in 'New Hollin'. So yes, he could have a bona fide Ring of Power.
hS -
There won't be a Shire by
on 2016-01-13 08:22:00 UTC
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Should I know why, in the original timeline, the Eotheod moved south to settle in Rohan and the Hobbits move west to settle in the Shire? Were the reasons similar? Should the Hobbits in this AU still live at the banks of the Anduin?
HG -
Not particularly similar. by
on 2016-01-13 09:04:00 UTC
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The Hobbits moved west as a sort of general theme. Hobbit origins are a bit vague, but they clearly originated in the East, and headed west to escape Sauron. They eventually settled as far from Mordor as it's possible to get without getting frostbite. I think those imperatives should be broadly similar.
The Eotheod, on the other hand, didn't migrate: they moved. In T.A. 2510, the Steward of Gondor asked them for aid against a massive attack. Eorl the Young rode out of Framburg and defeated the minions of Sauron at the field of Celebrant (just north of what we know as Rohan).
In return, the Steward granted Eorl and his people a massive chunk of land - then known as Calenardhon, but renamed Rohan. Apparently it was much nicer than their old homeland, squeezed between two mountain ranges and Mirkwood. They never went back.
But in this timeline, the Eotheod are allied with Erebor, and Erebor doesn't have vast tracts of land to give to them. So they stay where they are, and the Witch-Kings of Gondor have to win their own battles.
hS -
Sometimes I can't even understand my *own* ramblings........ by
on 2016-01-12 17:54:00 UTC
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I tried to limit the amount of enormously important canon people who would be in the Co., kind of looking forward to LotR, where Tolkien only had Gimli being an actual descendant of a person Bilbo knew, unless Legolas counts.
But the Rohirrim/Eotheod would be a lovely addition to the story! Denethor's addition would set up a cool connection with Boromir and Faramir later.
I suppose Arwen would be around somewhere or other, though I dunno how she and Aragorn of Dale would end up together. (I just had this sudden image of little ten-year-old Aragorn, stick-skinny and waving a sword around. Too cute!)
I'm trying to figure out what The Lord of the Rings would look like now. The Great Ring preserves Numenor, yeah? -
It's really nice to see new Boarders embracing traditions... by
on 2016-01-12 01:55:00 UTC
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Specifically, the tradition of baiting hS into posting crazy-long and immensely detailed things about Middle-Earth. I wholeheartedly approve. =]
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It's always entertaining to... by
on 2016-01-12 01:58:00 UTC
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...see how long it is before he takes the bait. :D
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He tends to take it immediately. by
on 2016-01-12 02:11:00 UTC
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It's just a question of how fast your man can type. Kaitlyn watching nervously from the corner as smoke billows from his keyboard, copies of every Tolkien-related work it's possible to find strewn around the place, and in the centre a mad dynamo of fan theorising...
Wonderful. =] -
Not gonna lie. by
on 2016-01-12 10:21:00 UTC
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I read the initial post in this thread on my phone at night-time, then spent about an hour lying there not sleeping because I was thinking about what would happen.
hS -
Bunnies by
on 2016-01-11 01:13:00 UTC
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Does that count as a plotbunny? I feel it's more of a backstorybunny. Or an AUbunny. Not a bad AUbunny, though I'm not sure if I'm the right man to judge.