Subject: Dude, spoilers.
Author:
Posted on: 2015-12-10 01:05:00 UTC
I stopped watching after season 4 for exactly that reason - 5 was clearly going to go past Dance.
Subject: Dude, spoilers.
Author:
Posted on: 2015-12-10 01:05:00 UTC
I stopped watching after season 4 for exactly that reason - 5 was clearly going to go past Dance.
I've been wondering about this for a while: what do all of you think about the movies made from your favorite books? I wasn't a Boarder when the Lord of the Rings or Hobbit movies were made, so I'm chiefly interested in them, but this also extends to HP and all other adapted continua.
Personally, I like the Middle-earth movies, although I'm much more fond of the LotR films than the Hobbit ones. They're well made and entertaining, but they've got flaws. A friend of mine encapsulated my feelings by saying that nothing about the movies increases the majesty of the original story or characters: they all either diminish or stay roughly the same. That's my biggest qualm. And Frodo telling Sam to go back.
No.
Just no.
So, what're the thoughts of the PPC on this topic?
-Alleb
Because my favourite books are probably A Song of Ice and Fire. And Game of Thrones started so well.
Then they changed Asha. And destroyed Robb Stark's parallel with his father. And made Brienne and the Hound fight. And casually killed Jojen.
I do think the Red Wedding works better on the show, though. And the opening is always good. But, yeah. I don't watch GoT anymore.
(am i the only one desperate for winds to come out i hope not)
Stannis willingly killing Shireen. Earrly killing of Barristan and supression of Euron and Victarion hurt too.
Yep, only salvaton is in Winds of Winter (and the confirmation of R+L=J). Please Martin.
I stopped watching after season 4 for exactly that reason - 5 was clearly going to go past Dance.
However, these things never happened in the books, and 5 did not get beyond Dance, except for very small points. And the bit about Stanis is Character Replacement worthy
I still think that the mangling of Robb's story is the worst part - I could see Melisandre manipulating Stannis to dire lengths, particularly as winter sets in. But either way.
(I saw someone theorising that Tyrion's a Targaryen, too. Thoughts?)
On one hand, it could seem fairly ridiculous, on the other hand, I saw someone develop proofs of this theory, and I must admit that the arguments used make sense. Wait and See in the end. (Melisandre can manipulate Stannis to do many things, but I always get the impression Shireen was a line he would never cross.)
But in all honesty, I do like some book movies. The Hunger Games movie, for example, was very well done. I also liked Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pt 1.
I also am a fan of the Marvel Cinematic Universe without having read many (if any at all) comics starring its superheroes, and adore the How To Train Your Dragon movies in their own right, knowing pretty much nada about the book series (to be fair, the movie doesn't really have much in common with the books).
Seeker: The Dark is Rising is the worst film adaptation of a book ever. I'd say that as an irrefutable fact. Not only did it almost completely ignore the premise of Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising Sequence but it is quite possibly one of the worst films (not films are based off of a bad book, or the bad adaptation of a book, just films in general) ever made.
List of things the film adaptation redacted:
-Connection to Celtic Myth.
-Connection to Arthurian Myth.
-The protagonist's nationality which is tied to the Mythos.
-The entirety of it's Mythos.
-The protagonist (NO, HE WAS NOT "AGED UP". Book!Stanton and Movie!Stanton are two completely different characters).
-Removal of The Walker.
-The first book.
List of things the brilliant Hollywood Producers shoehorned in a hopeless bid to compete with the Harry Potter films
-Protagonist is a teen that only cares about girls and getting superpowers.
-Protagonist is now an American
-Trying to instil immediate sympathy for the protagonist by sicking bullies on him.
-Trying to instil sympathy for the protagonist because he is an American in a "foreign" country.
-Trying to instil sympathy for the protagonist because his family is essentially the Dursley's but with the numbers of the Weasley's.
-Christopher Eccleston, who left Doctor Who and walked face and eyes into this.
-Vikings, because why not?
-Ineffectual villains
-a 90 minute run time
-and various other Book-to-Filmisms
.
.
.
.
Let me explain.
First of all, I know that the Harry Potter fandom has problems with Cassandra Clare. Honestly, I have never read her infamous 'Draco Trilogy' and I've seen this movie first. It interested me enough to read the books, and I sincirely enjoy the world Clare has created. It's not the best world I've ever seen, but definitely interesting and original one. Now, about the movie itself...
It's mediocre. It is not very good, simply because the first book is not very good. I realize it may contradict my previous statement but yes - The City of Bones is probably the worst opening book of any series I've ever read. Well, with a TV show hitting ABC Family (or, "Freeform") early January, I've decided to re-watch the adaptation from 2013.
The effects, the scenery, and the visuals - all of those deserve a praise. Especially nicely done were scenes in the Silent City, and at Magnus Bane's party. The casting works... for the most part. Godfrey Gao makes a spectacular Magnus Bane, Robert Sheehan is an adorkable Simon Lewis, and I will always praise Jemima West's Isabelle Lightwood (I would let that leather-clad huntress take her whip and... Umm... you didn't see that!). Unfortunately, there are some miscasts: Kevin Zegers seems too old to be playing Alec Lightwood, and Aidan Turner doesn't exactly struck me as Luke Garroway.
Now, what doesn't really work is the acting. While the lines themselves were really nice ("Downgraded from a gingerbread house to a one bedroom?
Overall, I'd give The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones 3 out of 5 starts.
Okay, please ignore the last two lines and let's continue from here:
Now, what doesn't really work is the acting. While the lines themselves sometimes can make you giggle ("Downgraded from a gingerbread house to a one bedroom?"), I feel like Jamie Bower's Jace has been Shyamalized and his acting completely taken away. The plot... well, it follows the original book, so it's not really good. My general impression of it was, "Screw the end of the world, and all the demons - we've got an awkward teen drama going on here!", but after I went through Book One (and it went much smoother, because of certain spoiler), the next ones were a bit more enjoyable.
Overall, I would rate The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones 3 out of 5 stars.
I can understand why other people might not, but I for one actually found them to be quite decent. I do think that there was quite a lot of wasted potential with regards to the storyline and character development, and I dislike the way quite a few of the scenes were executed (especially in BOTFA), but otherwise I didn't particularly mind a lot of the things which most people have been complaining about (or, at the very least, I could sort of understand the reasoning behind some of the film decisions that were made)? Maybe I'm just overly lenient when it comes to film adaptations, I dunno.
But the movies made from my favorite books? If we're going by favorite (and stuff I've actually seen), then that'd have to be the Discworld made-for-TV Sky One movies. I saw all three -- Hogfather, The Color of Magic, and Going Postal -- after they found their way to Netflix for a time. They ran the gamut from "not bad, I suppose" to "yeesh, what the hell was that?" Some of the details have faded from my memory (it's been a while since I've seen them), but here's what I can recall.
Starting with the best first: Hogfather. Given how convoluted and meta the Discworld books can be, I thought this adaptation was pretty solid. Most of the major scenes were touched upon in some way or another, as best as I can recall. The biggest cuts came in regards to the little gods/personifications that kept popping up. The Oh God of Hangovers was there, but a number of others were not. Some of the stuff with the bandits in the Tooth Fairy's castle was also condensed/altered. Sidney the wizard was the one scared of the Scissor Man, for example.
The casting was solid, with Teatime being particularly creepy. My only complaint in that regard would be that Susan occasionally came across as too stolid sometimes. Particularly in scenes dealing with Death himself.
Notable scene(s): Pretty much anything with Alfred. He had some good reactions to the stuff Death was doing. I also liked the running gag with his trying to make a roll-up.
Right in the middle was The Color of Magic (which technically included The Light Fantastic as well). This one was... I guess weird would be the best way to describe it. The casting was particularly odd. The same guy who played Alfred in Hogfather was Rincewind, which totally clashed considering how relatively young Rincewind is supposed to be. Twoflower was played by Sean Astin, which was just... I mean, he did a damn good job, but come on! Apparently the director chose to satirize American rather than Asian tourists.
To the adaptation's credit, it managed to wrangle the convoluted plotlines of the first two books fairly well. Quite a bit of stuff was cut, such as the Temple of Bel-Shamharoth and the nymphs. The adaptation also explains away why Twoflower seemed to gain such a grasp over Morporkian so quickly despite the big hullaballo there was over his not initially being able to speak it. I love Terry Pratchett, but The Color of Magic (the book) does not exactly hold up. That being said, Astin!Twoflower lacks the sense of gentility and forgiveness that I remember Book!Twoflower having. There's a big scene in the adaptation where he and Rincewind have a falling out.
Notable scene(s): Almost any bit with Sean Astin. Good actor, extremely weird choice.
At the bottom of the barrel, we have Going Postal. This was especially galling for me as I love the first two Moist von Lipwig books (haven't read the last one). There's just so much wrong with this adaptation. The casting is mostly bad, with Moist and Adora feeling out of character at multiple points. Moist in particular lacked the charm and wit I associated with his book portrayal. The best casting decision was having Charles Dance as Lord Vetinari. Bit weird having a blond Vetinari given all the art I've seen, but damn Dance caught the essence of the character.
The plot was also shredded to hell and back. Angua's one appearance outed her as a werewolf almost immediately. The Post Office for some reason was less interested in getting the mail delivered and more with trying to redeem Moist by showing him his crimes. The confrontations between Moist and Reacher Gilt were expanded upon, for the worst. The ending is wildly changed and includes Moist being outed as a conman (thus sinking part of the plot for Making Money). Oh, and get this: Moist's getting Adora fired caused her to start smoking.
Oy vey.
Finally, I know this was a made-for-television production (and thus had a limited budget), but the golems were just hideous.
Notable scene(s): Anthing with Charles Dance. Also, Terry Pratchett's cameo as a postman.
I don't think I've been able to get through the movie without falling asleep, and I've tried a couple times. That's about the long and short of it, I think. {= (
It's a shame. I really want to like anything Discworld-related.
~Neshomeh
I haven't seen them in a while, though, (and not even all of them; the last one I saw was Goblet of Fire) so I can't be totally sure.
I remember that I liked the Lord of the Rings movies, too; perfect for long car rides to and from the Outer Banks! Now I just need to find Return of the King...
I saw part of the Golden Compass movie on an airplane one time. I don't actually remember how I felt about it beyond "ooo, pretty". Do y'all think it's worth a rewatch?The Twilight ones were okay, too. Didn't see Breaking Dawn, though; I was convinced it would be a giant R-rated ball of nope for me. Turns out, I was wrong about the rating only. (I was in high school, don't judge me.)
The Percy Freaking Jackson movies. They had a chance to create a second Harry Potter franchise, one where we watch the characters- and therefore the actors- grow up. A franchise with Magic, but set in a modern world.
But instead they give the characters about 5 years of age and little semblance to the original canon or plot
While The Lightning Thief was pretty horrible, but... Mark Guggenheim (the guy behind Flash and Arrow) wrote the script for the second movie, and I don't think it's that bad. And, really, it's an adaptation - things are bound to be different.
Things I think the second movie got pretty nice:
- The opening scene with young Thalia, Luke, and Annabeth.
- Stanley Tucci's Dionysus.
- I like this version of Camp Half-Blood
- They made Annabeth blonde
- Leven Rambin's Clarisse.
- Nathan Filion's Hermes.
- The Grey Sisters.
- Siren Cafe. That's was pretty cool idea, although they've had a Hundred-Handed One working there :/
- The ending scene with Thalia was nicely done.
Things that made me cringe:
- They screwed up the Great Prophecy; I can get behind the cast being older, but what's with this Riptide-the-Cused-Blade BS?
- No Madam C.C's Spa and Resport (no Reyna and Hylla foreshadow... NO BLACKBEARD!)
- We've got a Hydra in the first one (which should be in second), a Manticore in the second (which should be in third), if a third one ever comes out, will it have Kampe in it?!
- What's with that magical deus ex vanishing tape?
- Zoe Aggeliki's Silena Beauregard is already a part of Kronos' force. So is Ethan Nakamura.
And yeah, I know what you were waiting for...
- KRONOS. RISES! HE F***ING RISES FOR A MOMENT! NO! JUST NO!
...But not as adaptations. They screwed up too much for that. I usually enjoy movies whether or not they are well adapted, not even as guilty pleasures, but I'm judging 'The Lightning Thief' as an adaptation. So, no, your fan license doesn't get revoked. I actually hate it when people are only willing to judge adaptations by the source material, as it seems like willful ignorance. After all, if it's the best movie ever made, but the worst adaptation ever made...
On the other hand, if it really is just a bad movie, then that's exactly how I'll judge it. Personal taste goes into it too. Commando is a terrible film objectively, but I love it because it's so cheesy and over-the-top. I love Fallout 4, but I still gave it a 6 out of 10.
Have you ever considered becoming an adaptation critic? As in, a blog or something. I think you'd be good at it. Good writing style for it. And, the market is in desperate need of non-snobby fans.
In The Lightning Thief, Ares placed a curse on Riptide so that it would fail Percy in his hour of need, so it... kiiind of fits? Percy certainly thought that Riptide could have been the blade of the prophecy, so I guess that one can slide.
If there was an indication that Riptide is cursed in the first movie, I guess it would kinda work. Or, maybe if Ares actually had a part in the first one. But no, we're having the Big Bad Guy almost reforming himself at the end of the movie, quickly let's throw a deus-ex-weapon to defeat him!
I get it that the future of the franchise was under a question mark - the first one got mixed reviews, so did the second, and there was no official confirmation or denial for sequels until 2015, when Logan said that The Titan's Curse movie won't happen.
For someone who hadn't read the books, the movie will be nicely done as it has a solid conclusion, with a possibility of a sequel. I guess it's just my inner nerd freaking out.
My two favourite non-Firefly/Serenity Filion moments are his scene as Hermes ("And so, of course -- cancelled") in Sea of Monsters, and the scene in Castle where he... no, I'm just going to have to link it.
Castle tries on his hallowe'en costume.
"Okay, a) there are no cows in space, and b) you wore that like, five years ago, don't you think you should move on?"
-- but squeeing over Nathan Filion isn't why I'm here, actually.
So, Sea of Monsters. The reason they did the ending and the prophecy the way they did is, I'm pretty sure, because they were sure they weren't going to get another sequel. Sea of Monsters (the book) ends with Kronos as a sequel hook; there's no sense of the story being resolved. Whereas the movie actually defeats him - in a way that doesn't (quite) preclude the rest of the books happening.
It wasn't good, mark you - but at least they tried to close off the series, since it was clear they wouldn't get to make the rest. I credit them for that.
(Also, I did like the elegance with which they addressed the characters' ages. "Meh, just add four years to the prophecy." It's nice and simple. ^_^)
hS
I remember them getting Annabeth's hair colour wrong! That was one of her most distinctive features. I don't even know how it's possible to screw up something like that!
Even if I couldn't NOT think about the book while watching it, the changes they made weren't as distracting as I feared, and I actually loved the Hydra battle even if it was a book early. That and Logan Lerman is a cutie
Sea of Monsters, though? As Sokka once put it: "But the effects were decent!"
The only redeeming factor about them is that they're not The Last Airbender.
Speaking as someone who genuinely enjoys the Inheritance Cycle books, the Eragon movie is, well, complete and utter fecal matter.
-Angela's role is diminished and bastardized. Angela was a cool, mysterious character and her companion Solembum is crucial to the plot. The movies just made Angela "hey, random fortuneteller" and removed Solembum completely.
-Arya being royalty is actually a really effing big deal, and it's not revealed until Eldest. And she never describes herself as a princess.
-They removed Elva. Elva is, like Angela and Solembum, very very important to the development of the rest of the cast.
-The Urgals are all wrong. In the film they're generic foreign savage types. In the books, they're roughly equivalent to orcs... and they've got a culture.
-No Isidar Mithrim. You'd think a movie, which tends to love big flashy effects, would make a big deal out of a giant red rose made of sapphire, but I didn't get the satisfaction of seeing it.
-The reveal of Brom being a Rider is supposed to be at his death, because it makes his secrecy make sense in hindsight to Eragon.
-The Ra'zac. My god. The freaking Ra'zac. These things were my favorite part of the series, and they were absolutely mangled in the adaptation. In the movie, they're just worms that walk that hunt the heroes. In the books, they're these freaky Lovecraftian horrors that metamorphose into dragon-sized bats (which were ALSO butchered by this movie) that are specifically evolved to be human predators. In the film, they were changed from the enigmatic menaces that saved the books (to me) to black-cloaked minions even more generic than the Nazgul.
Just... eff this movie. The only redeeming quality was the cuteness of baby Saphira.
I remember tat Paolini was joking about the probability of sequels before seeing the movie. He never talked about it anymore after seeing it.
Franchise killer at its finest.
Has been trying to get it remade properly. I remember the director in his commentary say on the Urgals something to the effect of I know they are supposed to be this way, but I don't care, I want them to look like this.
There was nothing that can really salvage that movie. Except maybe the credit song.
When I was in graduate school, I was often too busy studying to do any significant reading on major novels and such, so my appreciation of the written word was kind of a mixed bag. When I wasn't studying, though, I was able to find the time to familiarize myself with at least some of my favorite works of literature, such as all seven Harry Potter novels, the original Percy Jackson series, the Hunger Games trilogy, the Warriors series, and unfortunately (thanks to my mom) the Twilight saga. At the same time, though, I missed out on a few other works as well; I still have yet to read the LoTR series in its entirety even though I know the general idea behind most of it, along with the Hobbit novel preceding it - and don't get me started on Animorphs (which I've only read one or two books of), the Guardians of Ga'Hoole (I've only read up to the first three or four books), and the Maze Runner series (which I haven't even touched despite seeing both of the movies currently released).
In light of this, my judgement on how good The Movie is depends on whether or not I know the original source material. If I do, I determine the worth of The Movie depending on whether it's a good adaptation first and foremost, and if I don't, I judge The Movie without reference to the source, unless The Movie is so different from the original subject matter that it could be considered its own story.
This is why I believe that if you play your cards right, The Movie can sometimes be at least as good as The Book, if not better. I believe that there are two key factors: being a good experience for people who don't have the time to read the original source, which movies are generally good at, and attempting to stay faithful to the source itself, which movies are BAD at. Two ways to settle both issues is to make The Movie a work of its own (like the HTTYD movie or The Princess and the Frog as Ix mentioned), and to faithfully adapt every single detail from the source, which is tricky due to the time and budget constraints of most movies but CAN be done (The Twilight saga is sadly one of the rare few that has mostly succeeded in this respect AFAIK). If you try to do both at the same time, the different demands of moviegoers and book fans mean you have to make compromises which can only lead to failure. This isn't limited to adaptations of written works, either - there's a reason The Last Airbender is never brought up within the AtLA fandom, for example.
That being said, I will concede that this isn't necessarily a hard and fast rule, and that sometimes The Movie can still be awesome even if it botches the original book, show, or whatever it's based on. Case in point? Jurassic Park. The first JP film specifically was a horrible adaptation of the original novel, taking out much of the science that made the book such a bestseller and making everybody OOC to the point where you can say Spielberg was practically godmodding. But the film nevertheless became a blockbuster because a) the movie itself had solid writing, pacing, and character dynamics, b) some of the changes actually made the story better instead of worse, and c) the dinosaurs look awesome. I can say with confidence that I love both the first JP movie and the original novel equally, which is something I can say for very few Movies and Sources in general.
JP is, unfortunately, a bit of an exception to the general rule, but while it shouldn't be taken as the exception that PROVES the rule, it's a good guide to how a Movie can take the original source and IMPROVE upon it rather than tarnishing it. Alas, such a phenomenon has always been extremely rare in Hollywood history, and with the drive towards experience in movies today, we'll probably never see anything even close to it for a long time. And that's terrible.
I was fairly impressed with the first one, because they had gone for a faithful adaptation, even adding some scenes, and it worked for me. I really liked this movie.
However, they took a 180 with Prince Caspian, because of the form of the narration I guess, and the scenes they added were meh for me, as Peter descent to a Jerkass, or this scene with Jadis.
I didn't try to see the third one though, would it be worth it?
...and has great lessons about true beauty and facing your fears and things like that. It's worth it!
Are we talking about the recent(ish) Dawn Treader which randomly threw the plot out of the window in favour of 'we must go on a QUEST for the MAGIC SWORDS to destroy the EVIL THING'?
Or the old BBC one which is awesome? Because that one's awesome and has the best theme music ever.
hS
My brother and I watched those over and over as kids. The theme music still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. ^_^
~Neshomeh
Better by a long shot.
Thanks for the advice.
To be honest the most recent movie made off a book I've read was the Great Gatsby. The newest movie version is a terrible version of the books by the way,it misses the point of them entirely and just bored me.
Also Gatsby as Leo? Just not what I imagine him like at all,then again ever since I first read the book I headcanon Gatsby as Black so that may just be me.
My favorite of the Harry Potter movies would have to be the first two because I felt they were most faithful to the books. Which would have to be why Prisoner of Azkaban is my least favorite of the movies. So much of the Marauders got cut in favor of that stupid shrunken head—
Sorry, I should stop now before I start ranting. >:U
Oddly enough, movies that don't follow the books in anything but name can be pretty awesome stories in their own right. See How to Train Your Dragon and The Frog Princess; literally the only thing that was the same about The Frog Princess was the title. I loved those books as a kid and initially refused to see the movie because it looked like they'd butchered everything, but the movie was unrecognizable from the book and therefore I had no beloved characters to get mad over. (And I actually adore the movie as it is, so bonus points!)
Tl;dr, either be faithful to the books or make it completely unrecognizable. :P
As a stand-alone movie, Prisoner of Azkaban is actually pretty good and I love the scenery porn, especially the Hogwarts grounds oh my god they're so beautiful but yeah... as an adaptation, I feel it fell way short of the mark.and don't get me started on the werechihuahua
But then again, I'm much more forgiving of an "unfaithful" adaptation if we get a decent movie out of it,and we got it directed by ALPHONSO CUARON. Who is a GOD. Plus I wasn't overly concerned about the Marauders stuff being shown because the point is Harry is not James and certain people in his life, particularly those who knew James, have trouble seeing it. Remus is the one who doesn't really compare him to his father, just... someone who he can talk to about him. Which is why it is not All Marauders All The Time.
tl;dr: Good unfaithful movie still good movie, bad unfaithful movie still bad movie. =]
(I haven't watched the Hobbit movies after seeing a couple things about them on-Board.)
Basically, as movies — standalone works of art — the LotR trilogy, or, at the very least, the extended three-hours-each edition, is pretty good. I don't have a lot of complaints. As adaptations, however... there are various integral things that get left out or get changed (such as Anduril being such a big deal). Adaptation Decay indeed.
I agree with Des that the LotR movies are pretty good as movies, and I feel much more kindly disposed toward them since the Hobbit films showed us how bad they could have been.
Even back in the day, I was pretty happy with Fellowship. Yeah, Arwen stole Glorfindel's horse and Saruman beat up Gandalf, and those things were bizarre, but apart from them, it was pretty faithful to the book. Plus, come on, the casting, the scenery, the music, the costumes...! We went to Middle-earth, guys. {= D
I don't mind that Tom Bombadil was cut, either. He's always cut. I personally like him just fine, but really the only reason for that whole sequence is for the hobbits to get shiny Númenorean daggers from the Barrow-downs without being et by Wights, and Aragorn giving them the daggers instead makes sense enough. It's arguably worse that Fredegar Bolger and the diversionary house in Crickhollow are cut, since his actions have ramifications for the Shire at large, but nobody complains about that.
That was originally going to be a parenthetical aside. It kinda got away from me. >.>
Anyway, it was the second film that really irritated me. It makes Treebeard look stupid. It makes Aragorn make out with a horse. It kills off Haldir and a host of Lórien Elves at Helm's Deep for no good reason. It makes Frodo look sneaky and Faramir look like a jerk for rightly not trusting him. It makes Gollum into an uncomfortable parody of DID. It makes Gimli into daft comic relief. It just makes me want to claw my eyes out with shame and rage on behalf of my beloved characters.
The third film is better, but by then, the damage was done. I no longer trusted Peter Jackson, so I couldn't just relax and enjoy. Plus, although the third film may have fewer sins than the second, the ones it has are pretty big. The biggest is, as Alleb mentioned, that Frodo tells Sam to go home. Just. What. I cried. I literally cried in the theater, it's so stupid and OOC. D X{ And it's the third film that gave us CGI!Legolas Oliphaunt-surfing and Flaming Denethor, too. And Elrond turns up with Andúril for some reason, denying us Halbarad and the Dúnedain. Okay, so it would've been tricky to introduce this faction and a new named character so late in the game, but if anything, he should have just sent his sons rather than go himself, and we would've at least gotten Elladan and Elrohir (who are Rangers), and they could've been set up back in Rivendell or in flashbacks if we had to have those...
Ahem. I'm rambling again. Sorry.
On the other hand, Pippin lighting the beacons to alert Rohan to Gondor's need is a non-canon scene that I think is pretty cool. So there's that, I guess.
In a nutshell, I don't mind most cuts and changes that necessarily result from the adaptation process itself—going from a verbal to an audio/visual story-telling medium, time limits, Hollywood three-act structure and other conventions, etc.—but I strongly object to most things that are changed or added just because the director or whoever felt like it. Most of the sins I mention above fall into the latter two categories.
~Neshomeh
Specifically, this line: I strongly object to most things that are changed or added just because the director or whoever felt like it. As someone who has danced between writing and filmmaking, I wanted to say a few words in defense of this practice.
Telling a director or screenwriter that they can't add any touches of their own is unfair to them. They're creative folks too, with their own stylistic choices and methods. They're not just machines that take in stories and pump out film. Think of it like this: they're being given the chance to work on a (very likely) popular franchise. Maybe it's even something they're fans of. Why deny them the chance to help shape it at least a little bit?
That said, I will acknowledge that directors and screenwriters can go to far with changes. If the end result is something that upsets both fans of the original source material and newcomers, then the blame is well deserved. Adaptational changes should make sense when viewed through both the canon and the process of adaptation itself.
I can't speak too much as to LotR itself. I think it's fairly well known on this board that I'm not a fan of Tolkien's work. I thought the movies were fine as big high fantasy epics. I will say is that quite a a number of the changes you mentioned that bothered you, I can see being justified in some way. Not all, but a few of them.
Disclaimer: I'm about to be somewhat strident in tone. This is more because I'm confused than because I'm angry, and in any case, it's not personal. We don't have to agree on this to be friends, as far as I'm concerned. {= )
Now, first, kindly note that I said "most things," not every thing ever, and I even pointed out a non-canon scene that I particularly like. I'm not asserting that filmmakers are robots who exist to turn books I like into movies.
Second, with that firmly established, I'm not quite sure what you're meaning to defend in the case of the LotR films, especially since you've mentioned you're not really a fan. As for me, I'm basically objecting to Peter Jackson's established tendency to take a serious fantasy drama with noble characters and epic themes and, according to his stylistic choices and preferences, turn it into a cartoonish action romp with stupid, petty characters and no noticeable thematic overtones. Granted, this is far more obvious in the Hobbit films than the LotR ones, but I think you can see the tendency in most of the things I mentioned about the LotR films, nonetheless. If you disagree, would you care to discuss specific examples?
My basic point is that any changes should be done in service to the story as told in its new medium. If you need to cut some scenes, conflate some character roles, even make some things happen in a slightly different way if it'll save screen time and doesn't butcher the characters/themes in the process, go for it. Adding scenes that tell us nothing we needed to know, add to the run-time, and undercut the characters/themes, no. Changing the course of events in a way that makes less sense, adds to or doesn't change the run time, and butchers the characters/themes, no.
Also, to answer your question re. creative folks, even though I know it was rhetorical: That's what original writing and even fanfiction are for. And we don't like it much when people randomly insert their pepper-jack cheese into their fanfic, either. Bottom line, if you're choosing to tell a story that isn't yours, you're choosing not to exercise your full creative potential on it from square one.
Here's an analogy that might work:
So, J.R.R. Tolkien came up with this great cake recipe. He got really famous for it. Everybody loved his cake. (Okay, almost everybody; it was too heavy and rich for some. No problem, we love them anyway.)
Then along came Peter Jackson. He wanted to make Tolkien's cake recipe, but his modern kitchen was totally different from Tolkien's, so he had to do things a little differently. That would have been fine, but then he decided he wanted to put his own spin on the cake. Instead of butter, there's margarine. Okay, we can deal with that. But instead of chocolate, there's just carob, and there's these cinnamon candies that weren't there before, and the icing is too sweet now and also green for some reason, which doesn't really hurt anything but is kinda weird and off-putting. He calls it Tolkien's cake, and it's mostly still Tolkien's recipe, but when you eat it, it's not. And that's not nice.
~Neshomeh
I did not phrase what I was driving at very well, and I apologize if I caused any offense. Like you said, it's definitely not personal. My intent was to argue for a balance between preserving those elements that made the original work special with allowing for filmmakers in general to express their own sense of creativity within the fictional world.
Drastic differences between the source and the adaptation do not necessarily mean that the adaptation will be bad or should be dismissed. I've seen directors and writers make character-derailing changes and massive thematic alterations that ultimately benefited the end adaptation. Jaws is a good example of this. In the original novel by Peter Benchley, the main characters are pretty much always awful and mean-spirited. The film versions of Brody, Quint, and Hooper are definitely not. They only share cursory details with their literary counterparts. The film as a whole has at least a dozen scenes that were totally original. But it's still excellent.
Writing an adaptation is not truly analogous to writing fanfiction. Fanfiction is tailored to an audience that already knows what the world and characters are about. An adaptation has to appeal to those in the know, true, but it also has to bring in and appeal to newbies as well. Because an adaptation has to stand on its own, it is in many ways a property unto itself. The world might not be the new writer's, but this new version of the story is.
I want to tell an anecdote I heard about Neil Gaiman to sum up my feelings on adaptations. Apparently, when he read the script for Coraline he asked the screenwriter to make more changes so as to differ from the source material. If people wanted the book, he said, they would go read it.
As for defending the LotR films… I certainly face-planted right onto that one, didn't I? I would definitely disagree about there being no noticeable thematic overtones. I thought that the strength of friendship and loyalty concept was very much a recurring theme. It wasn't a consistent theme at times, but I would say it was there. Similarly, the need for someone to stand up and take responsibility seems to be repeated (Aragon as king, Frodo as the Ringbearer).
Since I alluded to having a specific example, I suppose I can argue for the presence of Haldir and his elves at the battle of Helm's Deep. First off, I would say their very presence is meant for three reasons: to give some hope to the characters (and the audience) in what is a very dire situation, to provide a call back to the alliance and battle at the beginning of the film, and to make the elves not seem so distant. Not having them show up could have made them seem unsympathetic, especially since they're all leaving Middle Earth (and, by extension, leaving Men to face Sauron alone). The fact that they all die could be seen as an allusion to that: the elves's time is over. They are gone and Men remain.
As for the death of Haldir himself, that has a simple if unsatisfactory reason: to set the stakes. The deaths of nameless soldiers can be dramatic, but nothing impresses upon an audience that things are serious than the death of a character they are familiar with. It's definitely a cheap trope, which is why I'm not wholeheartedly rushing to Jackson's defense.
But I will fully admit pulling all that analysis out of my rear. I'm no expert. My interest was far more focused on the practices of creating an adaptation.
I agree that Fellowship has always been pretty good. Even though the Usual Suspects got cut (Bombadil, Glorfindel), it managed to convey the sense of wonder that we ought to get from Middle-earth. Rivendell is completely wrong (Tolkien repeatedly drew it as a single Swiss cottage), but it's very elvish.
But TTT-M... ugh. Flip Faramir's character motivation entirely on its head, flip Theoden's character motivation entirely on its head (people notice this one less, because it leads to the same results), randomly chuck Aragorn off a cliff, randomly kill Haldir, spend - per P@L's graphs - as much of the film on the battle that Tolkien once said could be cut as on the Ringbearer, ruin Gimli, ruin Treebeard... it just feels like they wrote an entirely different movie and then spliced the LotR stuff in.
RotK... yeah, you've said it already. Frodo - what have they done to you?
hS is going to have to archive the Arthedain Annex sooner or later...
'A Dog's Dinner' - the Arthedain Annex
I have a newfound appreciation for Philosopher@Large as a webmistress - specifically, the fact that she uses very few images and even less links makes it very easy to archive her pages!
The Arthedain Annex is now added to the PPC Archives. It can keep Misssandman.com company.
hS
Especially the credit songs.
How the duck could they screw this up so much?
Considering so much is just carried over from one trilogy to the other. This was one of the things that really bugged me, actually.
To be fair, we did get a couple of cool new songs/themes (Misty Mountain Song and Thorin's theme are quite good), but if you listen closely, you'll notice that the score spends an awful lot of time on (variations on) the Shire and Fellowship themes, and the Bad Guy music sounds an awful lot like the Bad Guy music from LotR, too.
I'unno, I'm no expert, but I was let down, and I really feel like Howard Shore could have done better. I mean, supposing you're a new viewer and you watch the films in chronological order, how is the LotR music supposed to have the same impact if you've basically heard it all before?
~Neshomeh
Really cutting that section was the only thing about the LotR films I did not like. Though it still worked.
He was just so unnecessary. I get that exploring your world, even when it does not move forward the plot, can be fun, but Tom was just so utterly and completely pointless, it drove me mad. He was not funny, it was not charming, it was by far thee worst thing in the entire series. Tolkien was a great writer, one of the best of all time, but the man needed to learn when to cut out useless filler.
Then again, what do I know. I still say the films (extended editions) are some of the best films ever made, changes and all.
Cutting Tom worked for the films perfectly, but that seemed to me the largest change from the books to the movie, and the only one that really annoyed me in any way.
He was so disappointed that they just died with the sun rising instead of Gandalf tricking them into arguing with each other. That was his favorite part of the Hobbit.
Besides that, the Hobbit movies were just bad... Except for the auction scene, Bilbo and Smaug (Sherlock and Waston are enemies?! NOOOO!) and Riddles in the Dark (Go Andy Serkis!) And the "break the plates" song in the extended edition. And that's it. Everything else... Meh and boring.
But the credits song of The Hobbit 3 was great! They got Boyd to sing again, for the love of lembas! I love love love that song; he did it so well!
And the LOTR movies will forever be awesome!